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Discussion Forum

Wet Climate Siding?

| Posted in General Discussion on March 19, 2002 05:40am

*
Maybe this has been dealt with many times, but doing a search using “wet weather siding” turned up nothing.

I’ve moved from dry central valley California to wet coastal Oregon. Visited a friend whose 5-year-old house has lapped Port Orford cedar siding, which was painted when new; it now looks BADLY in need of re-painting. The builder is very meticulous, so I assume first seal/paint job was done properly.

If so, what would make for a less high-maintenance siding? Would Hardie plank hold up better? Shudder, vinyl? Or is this just the price you pay for Paradise?

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Replies

  1. FredL | Mar 17, 2002 10:20pm | #1

    *
    Dear Jim,

    There are lot of things that will make paint go bad. They include substrate problems, painting process errors, and even internal moisture issues. As the climate gets wetter, we see more failures.

    Some areas are so wet, you wonder why anybody even tries to paint. I use cedar shingles dipped in bleaching oil. Very natural, very pretty, no maintenance ever.

    Regards, Fred

    1. ken_hill | Mar 17, 2002 10:49pm | #2

      *Jim- Fred's scenarios for failure are correct. With painted cedar siding, failure to backprime the material is also a poss. cause. Many people don't beleive in painting cedar, and instead prefer to use a preservative as Fred mentions.........I live in coastal Washington State. There is a lot of agreement here as to the usage of fiber cement siding such as Hardieplank. Certainteed is another brand of FC which is superior to Hardie by some estimates. I think that many here will agree with me that properly installed fiber cement is one of the best choices, particularly for the Wet Coast. Forget the vinyl. -Ken

      1. FredL | Mar 18, 2002 01:38am | #3

        *Dear Ken,For whatever reason, the cement sidings are not popular here in Vermont and I have no personal experience with them. I've wondered whether they are so good that they can cope with poor paint application. Have you heard of any paint failures at all with them? Regards, Fred

        1. ken_hill | Mar 18, 2002 03:58am | #4

          *Fred- I have not heard of or seen any cases of paint failure with FC. My experience has been with the James Hardie product. It probably helps that it comes preprimed. Also, as I recall, the manuf. warrants the product as long as it is finish painted within a certain period of time (don't have a spec sheet in front of me). Of course this product has to be installed according to manuf. specs as supplied w/the product..........Maybe Mike Smith will jump in here, as I beleive that he has considerable experience with FC installation in Rhode Island. -Ken

          1. Jim_Lewis | Mar 18, 2002 05:14am | #5

            *Thanks, guys, and you are echoing what I'm finding else where on the web. Hardie or Certainteed seem to be the thing.Now the question becomes: lap or shingle? I lean toward shingle mainly because I could do it all by myself. (I think>) But what I don't understand (have checked only Hardie so far) is that Hardie suggests you use wood for outside corners. Doesn't that make for a real compromise? Or they suggest something called a "laced" corner; given the brittle nature of FC, THAT doesn't sound very cool.

          2. david_thodal | Mar 18, 2002 05:34am | #6

            *Jim, The problem is not so much the result of wood siding, but with paint. Paint is a poor choice for exterior finish. It will always require maintainence.Stick with wood. If you want colour use a penetrating oil stain. Or accept and appreciate the beauty of natural wood as it ages. Properly installed it will last as long as or in most cases even longer than synthetic sidings, even without oil maintainence. Reapply a penetrating oil finish every 5 years or so and it will last even longer.I think shingles are the way to go in wet climates. Especially in wet coastal environs.walk gooddavid

          3. Jim_Lewis | Mar 18, 2002 05:46am | #7

            *David,Are you saying that wood, in this extremely wet climate, won't begin to grow mold and rot? With or without oil? Don't mean to challenge you, but what you say just seems, I don't know, counter-intuitive.

          4. ken_hill | Mar 18, 2002 05:58am | #8

            *Jim- Not sure what you mean by compromise- most FC installation I've done has been with the cornerboards (outside and inside corners). Also have done some laced at outside corners (alternating end-laps), which is more labor intensive with cutting, end-priming, and caulking. In either case careful caulking and flashing are key to a good installation.............David- Not 100% sure, but I think jury is still out about FC vs. wood longevity, given that FC hasn't been avail. long enough to tell. But we all know that the wood will last an awfully long time, esp. if 'natural' as you point out........One thing I will mention about Wet Coast siding is the infamous LP siding debacle- rot, swelling/delamination, paint failure, mushroom growing = class action lawsuit. Done a lot of resides paid in full or in part by settlement money. Most often, replacement choice is FC. -Ken

          5. Jim_Lewis | Mar 18, 2002 06:12am | #9

            *Ken,By "compromise," I mean: you use painted FC because painted wood isn't a good idea, but then you have to use painted wood corners, to match painted FC. Or am I missing something?Listen, if unpainted, perhaps oiled wood has arguably nearly the lifespan of FC, then I'd probably lean that way. Is nice wood siding, these days, really expensive?

          6. ken_hill | Mar 18, 2002 06:43am | #10

            *Jim- Yes, quite expensive compared to FC. Re the compromise: If you need to refinish or replace wood corners, there's a lot less work to do than acres of siding.......Also, as a side note, I beleive that Hardie makes "Hardie Trim" as an alternative to wood for cornerboards and other trim. Have not seen or used it, but may be worth looking into....... -Ken

          7. david_thodal | Mar 18, 2002 06:59am | #11

            *Jim, wood has been used in coastal environs for a long time. In New England, I have worked on shingled homes over 100 years old where the untreated shingles were still providing weather protection. The same has been true in Oregon and Washington, maybe not quite 100 years, but at least 80. Choice of materials is important. In New England Eastern White cedar was the choice on most houses and outbuildings. The overlapping weave of the shingle provided breathability and weather protection. Many of these buildings have not seen any protective finish. The key to longevity is proper installation. Shingles need to breathe and move with differing moisture and temperatures. Board sheathing worked well for a sheathing because it aided in breathability, unlike plywood today. Also using rosin paper or 15# felt helped by being more absorbtive than the wood shingles and sheathing, wicking moisture from the wood and allowing it to disperse to promote quicker evaporation.The same is true in the Pacific northwest. There the shingle and sometime shake choice of wood was Western Red Cedar. Same principle holds true there.Moss may grow on the shingles, especially in dark areas or if your house has no sun exposure. It may shorten the life of the shingles, but not appreciably. Any good penetrating oil finish, including the more natural oil based and less toxic ones still will retard growth and preserve the colouration of the shingle.just some thoughtswalk gooddavid

          8. jim_"crazy_legs"_blodg | Mar 18, 2002 07:02am | #12

            *Want your siding to last in a wet climate? Frame your roof with large overhangs. The larger the overhangs, the less water hits the siding.

          9. david_thodal | Mar 18, 2002 07:08am | #13

            *Ken, you are right in that the FC material may give wood a run for it's money on longevity. However, some considerations. FC is porous and will absorb moisture. Since it has no living fiber structure use to moisture like wood, I think there may be some inherent problems that could arise over time due to that moisture. Especially in a freeze thaw cycle so prevalent to some areas. Also, the untreated product looks very unappealing, unless you like industrial grey. Thus you are back in the paint/stain cycle. Given the FC's structure and moisture, I see potential problems developing with paint maintenance, especially scrapping to refinish.These are only conjectures, I admit; I have used the product only a couple times and only in the last two years, whereas I have been building and repairing wood siding for some 30 years. I'll let you know in another 30 years.walk gooddavid

          10. david_thodal | Mar 18, 2002 07:17am | #14

            *Jim, Can't quote you prices on FCs. But around here in Montana a good quality red cedar shingle #2 grade suitable for siding runs around $ 115/sq. Installation is another thing. On flat walls, nominal window openings about $2.25/sq. Woven corners are the way to go for the best weather tightness, you can add aout $100/ 8 foot corner heigth. Elevation and gables, dormers are more. Being in Oregon your prices will vary, probably a little less.walk gooddavid

          11. david_thodal | Mar 18, 2002 07:18am | #15

            *Jim, wood has been used in coastal environs for a long time. In New England, I have worked on shingled homes over 100 years old where the untreated shingles were still providing weather protection. The same has been true in Oregon and Washington, maybe not quite 100 years, but at least 80. Choice of materials is important. In New England Eastern White cedar was the choice on most houses and outbuildings. The overlapping weave of the shingle provided breathability and weather protection. Many of these buildings have not seen any protective finish. The key to longevity is proper installation. Shingles need to breathe and move with differing moisture and temperatures. Board sheathing worked well for a sheathing because it aided in breathability, unlike plywood today. Also using rosin paper or 15# felt helped by being more absorbtive than the wood shingles and sheathing, wicking moisture from the wood and allowing it to disperse to promote quicker evaporation.The same is true in the Pacific northwest. There the shingle and sometime shake choice of wood was Western Red Cedar. Same principle holds true there.Moss may grow on the shingles, especially in dark areas or if your house has no sun exposure. It may shorten the life of the shingles, but not appreciably. Any good penetrating oil finish, including the more natural oil based and less toxic ones still will retard growth and preserve the colouration of the shingle.just some thoughtswalk gooddavid

          12. Jim_Lewis | Mar 18, 2002 02:42pm | #16

            *Thanks for all the comments, and especially to David.Here are some interesting comments, fromhttp://www.soundhome.com/topics/topic_exteriorsiding.shtml#design"Premature paint deterioration is often the result of moisture and water vapor, which originates inside the home and penetrates through the wall and siding. For example, one of the most common ways to detect failing tub and shower walls is by the appearance of blistering and other paint deterioration at the outside of the wall in question. Such exterior paint damage cannot be corrected by any exterior painting process unless the cause of the moisture or water vapor is first eliminated and associated repairs are made. A careful inspection of the exterior and interior of the home should thus be performed before exterior siding and painting work begins. Poor quality painting is counter productive. A good exterior paint job should last 10-15 years. Good quality painting includes the following steps: * Removal of any unused miscellaneous fittings, hooks, old electrical equipment, etc. * Removal of tree limbs and other vegetation in contact with the house or overhanging the roof. * Re-grading of the yard in such a way as to eliminate the possibility of any soil touching the siding or any portion of the wood framing of the house. * Check that a proper drainage system exists and is functioning. "Also:"There are a dozen different varieties of wood siding, all the way from the traditional bevel cedar siding to plywood products, cedar shingles, and vertical cedar siding. There are also various forms of re-manufactured wood siding, such as hardboards, oriented strand board, plywood, and masonites. Our experience suggests that good quality wood siding is one of the best choices for siding material in the Pacific Northwest. Properly installed, plywood siding, such as T1-11, results in a very economical, low maintenance, and long lasting exterior siding product. Many turn-of-the-century homes in the Pacific Northwest are sided with the original clear cedar bevel siding. Such siding, when properly maintained, can remain in excellent condition for years. Wood siding, like all other products, needs to be properly installed and maintained. However, unlike many other siding products, it can be repaired and partially replaced. Most older styles of wood siding products are available on today's market. Not all wood siding products are of equal quality. In recent years, we have seen the increased use of half by six, tight-knot cedar siding and other similar thin, bevel, tight-knot siding products. These products are typically manufactured from young trees. The wood from such trees does not have good dimensional stability; i.e., it shrinks, warps, and splits. In addition, such wood does not appear to have the characteristic of old growth cedar for resisting rot. We also find that when cedar shingles are used as a sidewall product, it is mandatory that good quality paint or stain is used to minimize the splitting and warping of these shingles. Typically, we will find the greatest amount of deterioration to the sidewall shingles on the south and southwest side: the weather side in this area. Replacement of the damaged shingles with a matching material is relatively easy, and a recommended process if it is followed by a good quality paint or stain application and proper maintenance. A common problem seen with wood siding is associated with sidewall insulation and vapor barriers. Wood siding should be installed in a way which allows the siding to "breathe." Improper siding installation over a vapor barrier, and/or over insulation can result in a higher humidity content in the siding, and eventually add to paint and moisture deterioration problems. "

          13. Jim_Lewis | Mar 18, 2002 02:56pm | #17

            *Because of a tight budget, I'd planned to use T1-11. However, I read in several places that T1-11 was made with new growth Doug Fir and doomed to premature failure. But, from above: "Properly installed, plywood siding, such as T1-11, results in a very economical, low maintenance, and long lasting exterior siding product. "And I like the LOOK of vertical groove siding.If true, what would constitute proper installation?Let's assume wide (18"? 24"?) overhang, hip roof. Use #15 felt--we called it "tar paper" where I grew up, in Georgia--and then even fir out from studs, for breathing? (How would firring affect shear?) Back prime T1-11? What?By the way, this is a tiny cabin, 14x36. With 10" walls, it'd be only 1,000 sf siding. But, as I said, budget is tight and inflexible.

          14. The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Mar 18, 2002 03:59pm | #18

            *Fibercement siding.... All trim pieces including corners, facias and soffets are now available for less cost than wood in FC.Second... I have installed and painted FC in a freezing climate. It is sensitive to cold temps when being painted. Paint will not adhere well when nights are cold and or dew is forming which makes for a very short season to actually paint in my area. Much Fall and Spring weather when you can paint wood is just not going to be right for FC. FC gets cold quick when the sun drops! 2 other paint issues already... Had paint blow right off FC where a gutter was wetting the siding and had paint blow right off near the heat of a gas flue exit. The paint came off way easier than it would have from wood. The way I see it is the paint is just laying on top of the FC like a static cling sheet verses on wood where it gets much more "hooked into the fibers and surface topograghy. What makes the paint last longer on FC is the fact that the FC is more stable dimensionally with changes in climatic daily conditions...ie- moisture and temperature changes.I like FC and wood. Paint FC and Stain or clear coat Wood.near the stream with clear coated cedar on my shack,aj

          15. Jim_Lewis | Mar 18, 2002 04:53pm | #19

            *AJ,Thanks for those FC tips.David, AJ, and others,Please see my new roof/insulation discussion in Construction folder.

          16. jim_"crazy_legs"_blodg | Mar 18, 2002 04:56pm | #20

            *I was pleasently surprised to find a stain for fiber cement siding that makes it look like wood. I called and got samples from the manufacturer and tried them on a piece of Hardiplank. Looks great. Varied tones of depth and everything. They make four different colors, Mahogany, Maple, Redwood & Cedar, which can be mixed for midtones. I plan to use it on the house we're remodeling right now. If this stuff pans out it will solve the "only thing with FC is, you have to paint it" problem. Check it out. It's called "Mason's Select Woodperfect Series Fiber Cement Coating" at Superdeck.

          17. Wayne_Law | Mar 18, 2002 11:56pm | #21

            *I used Hardie shingles on my new home built 2+ years ago. We had no trouble installing the material in the cold and snow, but did not work on any days below zero °F. For inside corners we used pieces cut from Trex. My window trim was Trex as well. For outside corners we did what I think you called "laced", that is, we used no corner boards. It was easy to do -- we made a jig to cut the angle so there was no measuring for each shingle. It looks great. Some folks may not like the texture of Trex, but it looks fine to me.As for durability, the fiber cement shingles will not rot or burn. The are not all that porous. Similar shingles made with asbestos years ago still look new 50 years later, which is not proof, but I take it as a good sign that these should do well also. Before I used them on my house I obtained a sample, pounded some nails through it, and left it on the wood pile nearly a year unpainted. It went through many soakings and freeze-thaw cycles (I'm on the Canadian border). I inspected it carefull for signs of deterioration. It looked so good that I made the commitment to use it on my house.Someone mentioned fiber cement as possibly being brittle. Hardie is definitely not brittle. It's a surprizingly tough material.As for finishing, mine looks brand new after 2 full years. It must be done properly, though. Never use oil based products on it, because the alkali in the material can react with the oil in the paint and saponify. Then it peels. 100% acrylic primer and topcoats are recommended for this reason, in addition to their inherent retention of flexibility which allows them to last longer than oils in architectural uses.Of course, there may be other opinions out there, but my testing and experience has all been good. If it had any drawback at all it would be cost.I used T-111 on a garage 15 years ago and would never use it again. It rotted fast on the north side, even getting those big white fungus things on it.

          18. Jim_Lewis | Mar 19, 2002 01:22am | #22

            *jim b,Glad to hear about Mason's stain, in case I use Hardie. They say "100 - 200 sf per gallon coverage." What was your coverage? At $33 a gallon, it DO make a difference.Wayne, Why do you think the T1-11 fungused out? Any theory, other than never any sun?

          19. david_thodal | Mar 19, 2002 05:34am | #23

            *One problem with T1-11 and other plywood siding is the wicking of moisture through the edges, especially the end close to the ground. This is true of wood end grain as well. It is very important to seal this well as well as give at least 6 inchs of clearance with the ground. One effective sealer is butcher's wax, bees wax or parrafin. Rubbed into the grain it will effectively seal it and last along time.walk gooddavid

          20. Jim_Lewis | Mar 19, 2002 05:40am | #24

            *Yes, I've read that you should edge seal all wood paneling, as well as back prime. But hadn't heard of using wax.I wonder if there have been studies comparing longevity of stain vs. paint.

          21. BruceM16 | Mar 31, 2002 09:50pm | #25

            Wayne

            I'm in the design phase of our beach house on the Oregon Coast, and originally specified Red Cedar Shingles for siding. However, you've piqued my interest in Hardi Shingles. However, I'd rather not paint, if I can get away with it. An earlier post suggest a new Hardie FC stain. Any experience with this? Another thought....does Hardie make these shingles pre-stained to look like cedar? Finally, how much did you pay per square and where did you order it from?

            Thanks

            BruceM

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