What About Quality? What exactly is it or what does it pertain to? Does Quality cost more (or less)?
And to Darcey (also on the topic of Quality) I just got my January issue of Professional Builder in the mail today and I picked up on two articles I though you’d in particular might be interested in:
- How to Fix the Profit Leaks in Your Business – Track the time it takes to ensure quality and get it right the first time to turn hidden costs into an unexpected profit stream.
- What Is Quality? – Depending on when you ask it, this ticklish question has many answers. Just be sure to ask the right people.
In fact just typing in the word Quality into the HousingZone.com search engine makes for a lot of interesting reading.
Replies
For what it's worth...
Quality is not something objective- it's a matter of expectation management. The expectations when you walk into a fine restaurant are different than those you get form a McDonalds. Some expectations, like the notion that the food won't give you salmonella, are common to both. Others, like the flavour, the presentation or the price, can be very different...
Keys to quality management:
- communicate what you intend to supply- spell out what's included, and what isn't
- offer options, and the cost for those options, so the purchaser has the choice (and the responsibility for MAKING that choice)
- get agreement in writing prior to starting work
- deliver what you promised
- demonstrate that you delivered what you promised- and get THAT in writing too!
The trouble comes when expectations are not managed properly- when somebody doesn't know the value of food and expects fine restaurant service and flavour and presentation at McDonalds prices. Better to scare those ones off with a proper contract and work scope description up front, rather than to work for them and make no money and STILL be without a reference for your next job...
Does Quality cost more (or less)?
First, you have to define quality
Then, you have to explain what you mean by "cost". Lifecycle cost? One time cost?
Just like the political threads, if you don't define your terms, the conversation is meaningless. Which, of course, is your point.
Cairo "...Just like the political threads, if you don't define your terms, the conversation is meaningless. Which, of course, is your point."
Well sort of. I have my thoughts and ideas on what Quality is but I wanted to collect some of the impression and ideas other have. I wouldn't use the term "meaningless" though. It is hardly meaningless exploring people perceptions regarding what Quality is or is all about.
View Image
ParadigmProjects.com | Paradigm-360.com | Mac4Construction.com
To me, quality has to do with meeting expectations and goals. Some will say that cedar siding is "quality", while vinyl siding is garbage. In reality, vinyl siding (properly installed), meets the expectations and goals of many people- a neat, affordable, maintenance free exterior finish that keeps the elements out. Those who say it's trash are used to working in a higher-end client base where it is considered "trash"- it doesn't meet the expectations of that clientle- which may be to have a natural, warm, varied material that defines "quality" to them.
I had my house vinyl sided two weeks ago. The crew showed up at 8:50 am (they said they'd be there by nine), got to work, and finished the installation by 3:30. All of the trash was placed in the siding boxes (I haven't found a stray nail on the ground since), and their cleanup sub picked them up the next morning. The joints are staggered in a nice pattern, the j-channels are straight, and the walls are wave and ripple-free. And, the price was within my budget. So, to me, that's a quality job.
Some will say "why didn't you use fiber cement, or cedar?"
A. My neighborhood doesn't justify it. All the houses that have been re-sided to cover or replace the asbestos shingles are done in vinyl, except for one. When that house went up for sale, it stayed on the market for 5 months (the houses usually go under contract within a week). The realtor (who I bought my house from) said that no one wanted to deal with painting the cedar claps and wood trim down the road.
B. I don't want to deal with the repainting either, and even if I'm not here when the time comes to repaint, I don't want anyone else to have to deal with it either.
C. I didn't feel like paying $9-10,000 to have the asbestos stripped off and the clapboards installed, when the vinyl cost me $2,000.
D. The foam insulation behind the vinyl has already made a noticable difference in the noise level and the temperature in the house.
In short, the vinyl met my expectations and my goals. That's my definition of quality.
Bob
What I meant by the meaningless comment is that if you are speaking different languages, the conversation doesn't go very far. Unless you each learn from each other.
Quality is meeting the customer's expectations. You can define quality any way you want, but if the guy paying you defines it differently, you'll have a problem. With reference to the "Volkswagen" comment; most people agree that Volkswagens are extremely well built and engineered cars. To my mind, that makes them far higher in "quality" than, say, a Cadillac. (And, after all, VW bought Bentley, didn't they?)
Cairo re: "Then, you have to explain what you mean by "cost". Lifecycle cost? One time cost?" I was reading through some articles on the HousingZone site again last night and while reading some of Scott Sedams columns (who writes about Quality a lot) (Supply Chain Management: The Missing Link) when I came across this quote from Dr. Edward Deming
View Image
ParadigmProjects.com | Paradigm-360.com | Mac4Construction.com
Hi! I'm not a contractor, just an amateur remodeler often on one end of the HO/contrator conversation BUT I used to be an organization development consutant who foucused on quality, customer service etc. etc. So my two cents is that while I have little argument with most of the posts here and have read most of the authors quoted I would like to see more emphasis on exceeding customer expectations even after you have upgraded them in the first place!
Dr. Deming about what he said when asked how much his shoes cost. He looked down at them and said, "I don't know ... I haven't finished wearing them yet."
Very interesting.....see, right there Iam finding a site I didn't know about by my association here that may help improve my thinkng and therefore the quality of my product to the customer.
Thanks
Edited 1/30/2004 3:06:23 PM ET by JAGWAH
Edited 1/30/2004 3:06:58 PM ET by JAGWAH
similar to the Baldwin Brass Co. An eldery man polishes the doorknobs before packing and shipping..as someone walked by and saw him witha real shiny doorknob they asked him "how do you know when you are done?"...He replied.." they are never done, someone just comes along and takes them away"..
Go Stab yourself Ya Putz! Ya think I Parked here?
Edited 1/31/2004 3:35:50 PM ET by SPHERE
The customer defines expectations. Quality is delivering what the customer wants, on time, on budget, without error, every time.
Jerrald,
Thanks for the links to the recent articles. I hadn't seen them yet, but I always enjoy Ed Caldeira's wisdom.
I agree, there is tons of great reading there. Actually, I do have that quality search at HousingZone.com bookmarked, and it is one of my favorite study halls. My other three favorite searches there are Zero Punch, Warranty, and Customer Service.
That's a huge question you've asked. Wish I could write as fast, and as well as you can, because your question has created such a huge swirl of thoughts in my head. Hang on. . . <g>
But as moltenmetal said, much of what is perceived as quality construction by homeowners or buyers is often hinged on their expectations. Or as you might say, their "Perceived Value".
Can you break your question down into more respond-able segments?
Great question. Great topic. What is your definition?
darcy
What About Quality? What exactly is it or what does it pertain to? Oh Jerrald, for me and only me,, people tell me that I do good work, customers call me back, want me to do more work. OK that said,, when I walk on a job, I can pretty much tell real quick, how much effort is it going to take me to delivery to the HO "quality " work. I treat it "quality" as a sliding scale (kindof sort of) when I start talking/quoting prices. Two examples come to mind,, 1-HO lives on top of hill, high rent neighborhood, 2- HO lives out of town, in double wide, low rent neighbor hood. For me, it is to be comfortable in whatever I build, with my name on it, with no excuses, well maybe, an excuse here and there.. be Safe Jim J,, Note: the majority of my work is T&M
my first thought is the level of "craftsmanship" ... to me .. quality is all about the labor and final result.
The customer generally decides the materials .... I guide ... and sometimes over ride ... but mostly ... especially with finish materials .. they decide the actual product I'm to work with ...
So they decided the "quality" of the materials ...
I affect the "quality" of the installation.
And "quality" ... is simply "near perfection".
Better than "average" ... usually takes a bit more care and time ...
Usually takes more "care" than "time".
And sometime ... to screw up the "quality" takes even long than doing it right in the first place.
Quality is a stain grade coped inside corner with preprimed paint grade crown.
Quality is me being able to leave my stack of levels ... neatly .... pretty much anywhere on that not yet completed set of kitchen cabinets ... over nite ... not caring where the HO decided to do a quick check after I'm gone.
Quality is the tile pattern wrapping up off the floor ... over the tub deck ..and up the backsplash ... looking like it grew there.
Quality is taking the time necessary to frame the walls so the granite guys say ....
Wow .. as they template.
Got the ultimate definition of quality last week ...
The customer saw the bulkhead my helper and I framed, rocked, trimmed and first coat painted ...
he was there when we pulled down the dust curtain and opened this end of the living room back up ...
said ... "You can't tell where the old stops and the new begins" ...
He got a quality job on that one.
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
It's like pornography.
You know it when you see it.
Then again, some don't see it at all, because the price is in the way.
Joe H
Joe that's great. I've heard the before too. Management Tom Peters describe quality just like that (and I copied and used that explanation often enough) although he then went on to say it was like robert M. Pirsig described in his book Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance:
I guess he was pointing out that Pirsig had a much more elegant way of saying the exact same thing. While it may be over intellectualizing what I wanted to explore here there are tons of other great quotes from Pirsig on quality but this one I do think is certainly apropos:
View Image
ParadigmProjects.com | Paradigm-360.com | Mac4Construction.com
Jerrald, you beat me to it.
I was going to reply to the original question, "Whatever you do, do NOT read Zen And The Art Of Motorcycle Maintenance." <G>
DRC
yeah ... I know what ya mean ...
about the quality porn .......
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
MHO
Your customers vary as does there expectations of quality. To vacillate between their expectations is confusion for you and your company.
Do the best that can be done at all times. Keep abreast of new technologies, upgrade your talents constantly. Streamline systems, simplify constantly when it improves the quality of the product you produce.
You set the level of quality and it should be ever improving.
Meeting your clients idea of quality is the least you should do.
Educating them to a higher level of expectation ensures a faithful client and gives hell to your competition.
None of this has a thing to do with more money for moneys sake. But if done for quality's sake, improvement of the craft and respect of the trade money will be the least of your worries.J.ust A G.uy W.ith A H.ammer
You Q raises a point I've been thinking about for quite some time now ...
Ever walk thru someone's home and notice all the hacked up stuff?
I see it everywhere I go ...
Now ... I gotta ask ...
Where are all those blind people when I'm doing a job!
Instead I get the people asking if I can "fix" that ugly part of the grain in the new cabinets they picked out .....
You know ... that ugly part they point out 5 times and ya still can't find it ....
Oh .. that ... that's a knot .... Knotty Pine has a few of those ......
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
JAGWAH- "Your customers vary as does there expectations of quality. To vacillate between their expectations is confusion for you and your company."
If I understand what you are saying with that correctly (which I think I am) I think you are hitting on a very important point. Aren't you saying that regardless of what our clients expectations are we SHOULD NOT as companies change our level of quality to suit the customer because then our co-workers or employees will be confused as to how much Quality to delver to whom? Am I correct on getting you message on that one?
While we can customize the actual work we do we should never customize the level of quality. Correct? Then we agree 1000% on that and again when you say: "You set the level of quality and it should be ever improving." Okay but how should we go about doing that.
I would say "it just my opinion but I think Quality really SUCKS in the building and remodeling industry" but it's not "just" my opinion. A lot of other people think that too. In fact millions of people think that. What can we do about it?
View Image
ParadigmProjects.com | Paradigm-360.com | Mac4Construction.com
If I understand what you are saying with that correctly (which I think I am) I think you are hitting on a very important point. Aren't you saying that regardless of what our clients expectations are we SHOULD NOT as companies change our level of quality to suit the customer because then our co-workers or employees will be confused as to how much Quality to deliver to whom? Am I correct on getting you message on that one?
Yes. For me, in my business, I set the watermark of quality.
"You set the level of quality and it should be ever improving." Okay but how should we go about doing that.
Constant reading of trade publications or memberships to a simple forum, like breaktime. Just by reading the Breaktime posts you can recognize a common thread of complaint. Sometimes they'll forewarn you to issues you haven't ran into yet. Publications like JLC, Remodeling, Fine Homebuilding and FWW help you spot trends, tool improvements or product failures.
The latest new tool, the crown trim coping machine, while expensive for a small contractor like myself would be a big improvement in the quality work especially a large job with multiple carpenters. It will lower the time involved and should save money for the client and save material cost.
I would say "it just my opinion but I think Quality really SUCKS in the building and remodeling industry" but it's not "just" my opinion. A lot of other people think that too. In fact millions of people think that. What can we do about it?
As to the quality of work sucking, it will always suck. Sucking is in the eye of the sucky... sorry couldn't help myself. But my point is... you get what you pay for. But there is a difference between quality and expectations.
I've had clients that I bent over backwards for, did excellent work but they somehow in their words just thought it should look a little better. They wanted to negotiate the final payment. And I've had a lot of other clients everyday people who's job wasn't that demanding just everyday work who were blown away with what they got. I've even been tipped at the end off the job to my surprise by more than a few. While I thank them and say they really don't have to most insist.
Anyway you didn't ask for an essay so let me sum up. You can't do your job then go home and turn on the game. If you have a fishing boat and it's worth more than the sum of all your tools than your focus is not in your business and quality of your product. You have to listen to conversations at the lumber yards, notice the magazines your clients leave out that their reading and go to Borders and see what there about. Go to home and garden shows and pretend your a potential client and check out the competition.
Lastly take a deep breath open that critical eye and look yourself. Have someone who's opinion you trust to who isn't afraid to tell you the harsh truth ,visit your sites from time to time and give you their opinion as to what they see. Does your crew present a clean friendly attitude, is the job site clean and safe etc. You get the idea.
One good check is walk the job site yourself and ask How many butt cracks do I see. If you got an average of 1 or more well that's to many.
"What can we do about it?"
Find more customers that are willing to pay both in time and money.
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Jeff J. Buck - [in response to] "
What can we do about it?""Find more customers that are willing to pay both in time and money."
So Jeff your thinking Quality costs more time and money?
Everything I been studying, reading, and learning about Quality says Quality saves time and money.
So which is it?
(I say it costs less and saves time)
View Image
ParadigmProjects.com | Paradigm-360.com | Mac4Construction.com
Both.
Quality takes more time than slap together ...
though I often see jobs where it seems they went out of their way to do something wrong.
Quality takes more planning. That's time.
Takes more time to make that final adjustment ... one more trip to the saw for a near perfect fit .... one more trip down the ladder to get a good look at things.
Quality can't be rushed.
Also usually takes more money up front.
Poor quality costs more in the long run ....
But to do it right the first time ... usually cost more.
Quality carp's cost more. Quality materials cost more. Quality subs cost more.
All vs cheap stuff. Of course .. they're plenty of crap out there that's way over priced ... but you generally get what ya pay for.
Like I have said on occasion ... "I can't afford me".
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Jeff: I have to agree hands down with you. Quality takes longer to execute and better materials. Finding these quality materials takes longer and costs more.
Now ....there are times that for example...a router jig can be made that will produce very high quality and very quickly. But creating this jig takes time as well....and to keep this quality to a high level requires very diligent monitoring of all aspects of the job ongoing.
Jeff...I have seen your work and can tell you put a lot of care and time into it.....quality has to be constantly worked at to achieve.
Stan
Aren't there costs associated with Poor Quality?
Cost of labor to fix the problem.
Cost of extra material used.
Cost of extra utilities .
Cost of lost opportunity
Loss of sales/revenue (profit margin)
Potential loss of market share
Lower service level to customers/consumers
Don't those things outweigh the cost of producing Quality in the first place?
View Image
ParadigmProjects.com | Paradigm-360.com | Mac4Construction.com
Jerrald,
I think your points are only valid when the quality level recedes below the expectation level. Stan could make all of his stairs like his rifle stocks, but he would be able to turn otu 1 per year, and few would really appreciate the detail. They might notice it, but not be willing to pay for it. So their expectation is (I'm assuming) slightly below the level that he delivers, so he's golden.
Jon Blakemore
Jerrald: I see your point..I think it is how you and I are defining quality. I am not talking about a level of quality that requires "fixing". I would define that as "shoddy workmanship".
I never compromise when it comes to creating something that is even the least bit questionable. I feel that all on this forum try and do achieve quality work. What I am referring to is dealing with a client that normal quality is not good enough. The "quality" that this type of client demands is just "extra" quality. This "extra" quality costs more.
Quality costs more to produce....lack of quality indeed causes lost future business by bad word of mouth advertising.
It just looks like how we are defining which costs more....the extra time and money to produce quality in the first place...or the cost to repair and the lost future business for poor quality.
...from the American Society for Quality website
Cost of Quality
Cost of quality is the amount of money a business loses because its product or service was not done right in the first place. From fixing a warped piece on the assembly line to having to deal with a lawsuit because of a malfunctioning machine or a badly performed service, businesses lose money every day due to poor quality. For most businesses, this can run from 15 to 30 percent of their total costs.
"For most businesses, this can run from 15 to 30 percent of their total costs." Since (IMHO) quality really suffers in our industry that means 15 to 30% of the money were spendng is waste or wasted?
View Image
ParadigmProjects.com | Paradigm-360.com | Mac4Construction.com
Jerrald: I still think we are defining "quality" differently. I could continue building curved stairways for the majority of my clients....not having any callbacks and very satisfied customers.
I could turn away the stairways that have to be bid higher because the client demands are higher....very select materials...and extra man hours assuring the extra quality that they require. I would do just fine because I would then have more time freed up for more normal stairways that require less time and cheaper materials. Cheaper in that there is less quality in them.
Three years ago I took on what I said would be the stairway of my life. It was $136000. I turned down 5 normal quality stairways to build just this one. It had "quality" Enkeboll stairparts....$121 balusters....$1100 newel posts....$85 a foot handrail.....this was "quality" and my workmanship HAD to be the best I had ever done...or I would be in trouble. This exta quality materials and time to assemble them to a higher degree than normal.....without a doubt cost more.
I could have done just as well building the five lesser quality stairways...so it would not have cost me any lost income.
Now..if you are talking about no quality...thats another story. I agree with the semantics then. No quality costs. I would be out of business fast.
"Aren't there costs associated with Poor Quality?"
That's like the "tree falling in the woods" question ....
The "costs associated" are only there when the problems are brought to light ...
AND ...
The home owners actually care enough to take the time and money to rectify things.
I'd say most "poor quality" isn't even close to being a code/use-ablilty issue ... so most of it is left as is ....
Something else to factor in .... I'd say most "average homeowners" don;t have a clue as to what quality is ... which is why most don't feel the need to pay a little extra.
Lowest bidder is usually lowest quality.
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
"That's like the "tree falling in the woods" question ....
The "costs associated" are only there when the problems are brought to light ..."
I think you might be missing a huge point and the significance a huge loss of $.
A contrator puts in a kichen for a client and the client isn't satifified with the Quality of the project (maybe it took too long, or the tile grout cracked in places and popped out after 10 months). That's a quality problem and it costs you the contractor because over the course of the next 10 years those people spend another $250,000 on other remodeiling projects that go to other contractors. The cost of attracting new customers always outweighs the cost of maintaining the existing clients so that contractor will not only have lost the potential revenue but they will also have to spend money to attract new clients.
"AND ...
The home owners actually care enough to take the time and money to rectify things."
The cost of fixing the problem if they call you is one cost but the cost of them not calling you back to fix the problem is potentially even greater.
"Something else to factor in .... I'd say most "average homeowners" don;t have a clue as to what quality is ... "
Quality is whatever the homeowner thinks it is. What you or we as contractors think Quality is isn't important it what our clients think it is.
Whether or not a product or service is "satisfitying it purpose" [is Quality] is defined by the customer, not us.
View Image
ParadigmProjects.com | Paradigm-360.com | Mac4Construction.com
You've completely misread my post.
I'm talking about the 90% of the world that just accepts sub-quality work.
Both the hacks and the home onwers.
Think about it ... how many times thru a remodel to you see sub-quality work .... that's been there since the last remodel ..... 35 years ago?
They lived with it for 35 yrs, didn't they?
"I think you might be missing a huge point and the significance a huge loss of $."
I'm not missing anything .... I only provide top quality work. And fix what ever listakes happen out of my own pocket. I don't need Japanese standards .... I got my own.
And the HO's idea of quality don't mean squat of it's lower then mine. I won't lower myself ... just won't work for them if I see the signs they want to head that direction.
I don't buy the whole "customer is always right" thing ...
I'm the professional ... it's my job to educate ... it they don't wanna listen ... I get out as quick as I can.
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
IMO, quality is meeting expectations of the purchaser.
If I am a 3rd world citizen living under a tree, any "hut" with a roof and protectingme from the elements is "quality" by "comparison" to my present abode. As such I could care less if it was built with balsa wood, steel, a wood composite or if it has stainless steel fasteners or wood pegs. Likewise for a person living out of cardboard boxes for lact of a dresser, "quality" would be any dresser, used, new, mahagony or painted partcle board.
So, quality is in the eye of the beholder and her/his need and expectations at the time, and what they are willing to exchange for said, "desired" quality.
Here's anoter example. The first Lindal Cedar house we built was a two storey large unit. My forman at the time was a terrific craftsman and made sure all carpentry was done just fight - first rate "quality" workmanship. The wealthy owneres however were less interested in the details of his workmanship. and more interested in glitz and the overall house in general. Not once did any one of their family compliment Jeff's work, and subsequently, his feeling got hurt. As he said: "They could care less about the pains I took and made sure everyone took to build a 1st rtae home."
Weve all done jobs where there was a part of it where we weren't satisified with it's completion but the customer said: "Looks great to me."
Expectations or "perception" in the mind of the customer determines "quality" because it depends upon what their priorities are. So other than to satisfy the ego of who produced the quality and not the world at large, but for the purpose of selling it, only the customer determines quality, for if it's not recognized, appreciated, and willing to be paid for, in effect, it doesn't exist.
Edited 1/31/2004 11:05:41 PM ET by Sonny Lykos
"I don't buy the whole "customer is always right" thing ..."
The customer is always right but they might not be right for you. We also have a minimum standard below which we will not go. It would hurt our business, discourage our employees and we plain just won't do it.
That said I can look at work in my own house in various stages of completion that have lingered for decades. I wouldn't have put up with any of that on a job, but in my own house I can easily ignore them. Is this wrong? As long as I do enough to keep my wife happy, obviously not.
The customer is always right but they might not be right for you. We also have a minimum standard below which we will not go. It would hurt our business, discourage our employees and we plain just won't do it.
Just to go off on another tanget here ...
I still say that's wrong ... the customer being right.
Current job ... the HO had the great idea of making the big fixed granite topped island mobile .... instead of a standard fixed island.
Told me he "mentioned it" to the kitchen designer. Either she wanted to be nice... or didn't know better .... But I immediately said "No."
It'll either fall over and kill someone ... or even with truck tires it'll be too heavy to move ... and if it did move it's dent "my" brand new floor ... plus ... with in the first coupla rolls .. the granite top would crack.
Now a viable idea unless he wants to spend about $10K just to engineer something.
Just not practical.
He said what's he's been saying all along ... "That's why he hired me ... to put his dreams into the real world." He's an ER Doc ... I'm a carpenter ... we have an agreement ... when I step into the ER .. he's in charge ... when he stops into the world of remodeling ... I'm in charge.
We're both allowed to have great ideas ... but the "expert" decides what will and won;t work. I have no problem telling clients ... No, I'm right. That won't work.
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
That's quite an idea, a granite topped mobile island. Ideal would be a hovercraft style air cushion, it could sit on rubber feet until the fans started,then it would lift off maybe a quarter of an inch, floor would have to be perfectly level, of course, or the island would be off through the wall into the adjacent room , slowed only by the pipes and cables.
John
I was thinking something along the lines of recessed large scale electric train tracks.
Even thought about looking into using those same scale train engines ... to make it electric operated ... of course ... they'd have to decide on two sitting positions ...
Like ... "over there" to be a bar ... and "over here" to be a serving tray for parties.
I'da found something to make it work ... But I knew the guy just pictued "something easy" ....
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Jerrald,
I think you have to take into account the decreasing returns theory. I think Stan exceeds the expectations of his clients. I have seen his work up close (at least close photos) and he would have to have some extrememly picky clients to have a problem with his work. Sure, maybe he has a gap of 1/64" somewhere, so he could tighten that up to 1/128". I heard a marble guy tell me that sometimes they do stairs. The test for them is they take an 8' straightedge, and slide it down the nosings. If the level can rock anywhere, or if it ever gets hung up on a portruding nosing, they must tearout and redo. Maybe Stan could subject his stairs to this test (a curved straightedge maybe?). I'm sure you could find a way to up the standards I have suggested. There is never a ceiling to quality. My point is, I think anyone could increase quality, but if your meeting or exceeding your clients expectations, then you are where you need to be.
As to the decreasing returns, who says if you increase quality 10% that your costs will decrease by 10%. I agree that there is alot of shoddy work out there. But there is also alot of good work. Sometimes the good work fails. Then you go back and fix immediately to please the client. I don't think this is a major problem if your incidents are few and far between. The cost of fixing the work might be a good bit less than the cost of increasing the quality on all of your projects.
I agree with Jeff. The customer is not always right. I read somewhere, might have been here, that the our job is not to tell the customer he is always right, rather it is to make them feel that they are right. Maybe it's just semantics, but I think it's an important distinction.
I think lower quality can *sometimes* be a better marketing tool than exceptional quality. Case in point: Last year, I purchased a Rousseau porta mak stand for my table saw. One of the threads for the leg leveler was stripped out. I called them up (bought it at Amazon, but didn't feel like dealing with their customer service) and spoke with a sales rep. I was extremely impressed with the service that I received. They bent over backwards to make me completely happy with them. Had the part not been bad, if you asked me about them I would say "they're okay". Now, I have a rave about them. I could see how this could fit a remodeler. Our industry is plagued not only with poor quality, but poor service and response as well. If you had a call back and it was immediately dealt with, fixing the problem completely with a nice letter thanking them for the chance to service the product, and that you hope that they will still consider you in the future etc... I think you might be ahead of someone with a flawless install. Maybe.
Jon Blakemore
Jerrald,
I agree with Sonny. Quality is in the eye of the beholder. I also agree with Jeff that in terms of pure quality, material and level of labor 90% of america doesn't do business at that level. Jeff works for the 10%. I work for the 90.
From a purely business standpoint living in a small area I can work a lot more working for the 90%. I can provide good work with whatever level of materials they choose. Does this make me a "hack". I would like to think not but I don't think any of my jobs will make FHB pages. But I am still proud of my work and we have a very low call back percentage and few problems. When we do we jump right on it and fix the issue, same as Jeff out of our own pocket.
I believe that being in business we get to choose who we work for and what level of work we choose to do. And I appreciate people like Stan, Jeff, Andy C, and others here that appear to be "craftsman" that border on artistic. I am not of that nature. I am a businessman that happens to work on houses. I want to make money.
My point is I believe that you can do quality work at a level above the expectation of the customer, good structure, good apearance, and not work at the level that Jeff or Stan works at. Because quality is in the eyes of the beholder. Some think a good vinyl siding job is great looking and long lasting. Others would not put it on their dog house. Some believe cement siding is the only way to go. I will do either for a price. And do my best to do it well. So do we do quality work? I think so. And I do a lot of repeat business so it must add up to something.
My last example. There is a thread here about cabinets. Jeff is installing cabinets of a sub par level of quality in his eyes. Particle board sides etc. Now I agree that those pictures look like cabinets of less quality than I would choose, for that matter less quality than I have installed. But later in the thread I saw a set of custom builts that were of a level that I have never installed nor would any of my customers been willing to pay for. Plywood sides have there place for those willing to pay for it. But I took a bathroom vanity out of a house last year, a one owner home built in 1967. It was made entirely out of particle board. Nothing wrong with it except she no longer wanted a painted surface vanity. Poor quality? 35 years worth and still going until the owner decided to change style. DanT
Dan: I am like Jeff and try to stay with the upper 10%. These are usually projects that quality is more important than the cost. They want to pay for more time consuming details...such as curved stairways...flared stairs....curved balconies...etc.
I am just a small shop by my choice...and I just would rather work on one large project....that a bunch of small ones. I am in a small rural area and there are all kinds of carpenters around that want these smaller jobs. They do very well at them..but they just dont want to mess with a big project. That is obviously to my advantage. I would starve if I took on every two-step-stoop that came my way. There are so many local carpenters to compete against in that type of market...that for me to survive at it..I would have to go back to my "killing snakes" mode ...work Saturdays and a few evenings...and my wife would have to seek outside employment.
So.....I stay with the higher end stuff...I can bid in a decent living and provide quality work.
Once in a great while...I may get a call about a baluster splitting or something minor. I always respond asap and take care of whatever it is. In a way...its kind of better to have a little problem crop up...and take care of it immediately with a smile.
Dan....as far as me being anything near an artist....I appreciate that...but I honestly can say I am not. I just happen to be filling a niche that I have a passion for...and this allows me to do some interesting projects. I like to look at others projects and in return like to post a few of mine. I feel we all learn from seeing others work. I am often very humbled by some of the stuff I see posted on this forum. It keeps me inspired and makes me very aware of how much more I have to learn.
I think a lot of people confuse quality with luxury.
I once took a class called "Quality is Free." The definition of quality we were given was pretty much the same as others here have said...as long as you meet the requirements of a particular situation, you have quality. The example used in the class was that a Volkswagen can have as much or more quality as a Cadillac, depending on a person's needs - if all you're worried about is basic transportation to the corner store and back, the VW provides all the quality you need (this class was a long time ago, so these two particular cars maybe aren't the best examples anymore.)
The idea of quality being free basically means that it doesn't cost any more to provide a high quality product if you're doing things right.
Edited 1/24/2004 7:21:28 PM ET by Stuart
What About Quality? What exactly is it or what does it pertain to? Does Quality cost more (or less)?
the hardest person for me to satisfy is myself.
i can always pick hoiles in my work if i want to. but i think that quality comes from attention to detail, and caring about what you are doing.
as to whether quality costs more or less i think a quality job costs the same in the long run, being as you don't have to go around redoing things.
Jerrald: Another good topic ...one of many that you originate.
I have just posted something similar in the "Perfection" thread.
I strive to do as high of quality work that can reasonably be bid into my stairways. Although I feel I do a nice job....I know I can do better. I do sacrifice quality. Let me explain.
I used to build handmade kentucky longrifles from scratch. I would usually spend over 200 hours on the maple stock blanks slowly and meticulously removing what is "not" a rifle. I spend more time on building these rifles than I have on my largest curved stairways. Funny thing...each rifle took longer because my obsession caused me to dig deeper on the next one. These drive me to dig deeper on each succeeding rifle...to do the better than my previous one. I have built 8 rifles....and you could put them in a pile and have someone off the street correctly put them in order of first to last just by scrutinizing the extra detail and cleaner lines the succeding ones had. Even though I would be satisfied with my improved efforts on each one.....I would go to the National Muzzloading Associations national shoots...and look over the rifles made by pure "masters" and come away feeling somewhat deflated. But then this would be a catalyst for Stan to build a better rifle. I was doing my rifle building purely for the passion of seeing my woodhacking hands slowly improve. I then had an opportunity one day to make money in the real world by transferring "some" of this obsession to stairbuilding. I say "some" because if I had transferred "all" ...I would still be dreaming of landing my first stairway as I was my families only sourse of income.."by mutual choice between my wife and I" and I had to be realistic and back off some of this obsession that would realistically never be noticed.
I do run across varying levels of expectations from the wide variety of clients I deal with. While I strive to do my best...it is within reason. I try to use very nice materials....but if I built my stairways as obsessively as I build my Kentucky longrifles...I would have to bid in extra days of sorting through a car load of oak.maple..or whatever finding the most perfect grain matches etc. The wood would have to be air dried at least one year for each inch of thickness. I would not consider buying a curly maple stock blank that is 3 inches thick unless it has been air dried for three years. It would be from a select quarter sawn blank with 3-4 hundred curls from buttstock to nosecap.
I could go on and on explaining the differences between excellent quality that is totally appropriate for stairways..but is not good enough for the scrutiny that handmade rifles draw.
I finished my Kentucky rifles by handplaning...scraping with broken glass...scraping with scrapers that can shave super thin shavings...this followed by sanding the wood down to 320 grit...then through the grades of steel wool down to 0000...then hand burnishing with a cotton rag..glazing the wood so fine that a fly could not hardly land on it. This was then followed by applying acid stain...typically chromium dioxide and watching the reaction burn and make more vivid the curl in the maple. After all this...it again received a burnishing treatment..then a coat of boilded linseed oil every day for a week...once a week for a month...and then once a month for a year. Then...annually. It is the smoothest finish I know how to make.
Now....do I have to sacrifice this level of quality on my stairways? ABSOLUTELY......I dont even finish them myself because the budget would be blown out of the water.
Economics dictates the level of quality I am willing to raise myself to.
I again feel I deliver a good sound stairway and have never felt nothing but complete satisfaction in return.....but I myself am never satisfied.
Again...economics dictates to what level of obsession I am allowed to go to when I bid a stairway.
Thats one of my variables when I price a stairway. I have specifically 2 clients that are repeat customers. They are very picky and I have to spend extra time on selecting their materials and extra scrutiny is applied to my work on this material. Its not that I am sacrifycing quality on my other stairways...I should say it is that I am bidding in "extra" quality on these special ones.
I have realistically accepted this as a fact of life and I am reasonably content that I am exceeding the customers expectations.
I have always made it my policy to "Undersell" and "Overproduce".
I get a lot of satisfaction from doing my stairways because I know I am realistically doing my best to put as high a quality product as the situation allows.
I do get more satisfaction working for pickier clients..because this extra catalyst causes me to "bid" in a higher lever of quality.
Just another quick example.....I have a few clients that demand that no plugs be seen on any newels. FINE....that is the best way and it is my preferred way. However....it takes longer to apply face laminates on the newels....or even open up the subfloor and secure the newel discreetly from the back side of the newel. There are many other examples..but I think you will see my point. I cant bid every stairway with all my elete little tricks...so I do sacrifice quality.....realistically.
Edited 1/31/2004 9:47:51 AM ET by Stan Foster
Folks I couldn't resist jumoing in again on this one. Seems to me that there are three, maybe four, components that lead to a total quality experience for the customer. One is the level of of craftsmanship you are willing or able to provide for a given price. You know what that is, no matter how intuitively, you do know that. One indication to me of a quality contractor is the one that turns down a job because they can't or won't do it at my ceiling budget and then offers ideas about how I might achieve my desired ends. Second is the clarity of the meeting of the minds between you and your customer, not merely a written detailed contract but a sense of understanding and respect for each other'spoint of view and driving motivation. AKA partnership. Third is performance, in every detail, at least to if not above the agreed expectations/specifications. This is where you have the opportunity to exceed expectations and the "details" include cleaning up every day, starting and finishing on time, completion within budget, being sensitive to the client's environment (perhaps no loud music) and adapting to it, dressing/speaking/conducting yourself(s) in a professional/courteous manner, following up after the job (perhaps as long as a year) to check for customer satifaction etc, etc.. It goes on and on and perhaps sounds obvious to those in this forum but over the years, in various parts of the USA, I've had predominately (with some notable exceptions that keep me optomistic) less then satisfactory experiences with contractors despite my best efforts to do my part in supporting the foregoing.