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Discussion Forum

What are your WCB rates like

cowtown | Posted in Business on November 28, 2002 08:37am

I’m up here in GWN, Sole proprieter, working in reno and repair market, on the finishing side of things. Some cabinets, some countertops, trim and doors, drywall repairs, tile work, painting etc.

Been doing it for a number of years. Had WCB coverage for most of em- in three province, zero claims. Rates were always reasonable.

Now, here in Alberta, WCB rates went up from 2.89/100$ of insurable earnings, to 3.70 for 2002. for 2003, they are going up to 6.91/100, and the following year they are stated as going up to 9.40/100, but conversations tell me that they are going up even more.

That is a 325% increase over three years.

I ain’t against insurance, but this is now gonna cost me about twice what my contractors policy does, and ya, even though I have a contractors package, WCB is required by law, for some of my clients.
Ergo, I’m getting insurance poor.

I’ve had long discussions with the WCB underwriters, and yes I could get cheaper rates if I only did say, finishing carpentry, but as I do more than one task, I end up in the category I am in (but could appeal it)

I have said to them that there must be some fundamental error in their categorization as my experience with other sole Props doing essentially the same kind of thing as I do is that no-one has ever related filing a claim. Course, if they were dead, I never woulda met em.

I have pointed out that there rates are so far out of line with other insurance coverages that common-sense says to review their rate increases. They assure me that they have the acturial data to substantiate their rates. I’d go shopping, but they are the only party (mandated by law)

So what are the rates elsewhere for others in the same sphere of operations. I don’t do roofs, ain’t a logger, seldom go over ceiling height, no employees, no gas-fitting.

And if you happen to be here in Alberta, the WCB category is 40401- now called “construction trade services”

Thats the question in a nutshell. Thanks for the input

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Replies

  1. FrankB89 | Nov 28, 2002 09:00am | #1

    About $29 to $36 per $100 here.  Loggers about $42.  Commercial diver $125.

    Sleep well!!!

     

    1. jimblodgett | Nov 28, 2002 09:03am | #2

      What the heck is "WCB"?

      Brinkmann for president in '04

      1. UncleDunc | Nov 28, 2002 09:08am | #3

        For that matter, what the heck is GWN?

        1. jimblodgett | Nov 28, 2002 09:26am | #5

          Great wilderness?

          Brinkmann for president in '04

          1. bikeralan | Nov 28, 2002 11:57am | #7

            Great White North

      2. FrankB89 | Nov 28, 2002 09:25am | #4

        Maybe I'm all wet (been known to be) but I think he was wanting to compare Workers Comp insurance rates.

        Jules Quaver for President   2004 

        1. jimblodgett | Nov 28, 2002 09:28am | #6

          Yeah, maybe your right, but the cat went anacronym crazy and lost me. WTF?Brinkmann for president in '04

  2. Piffin | Nov 29, 2002 02:21am | #8

    There's got to be a major diff between the wayt you get coverage or what is covered in Canada than here in the USA to be able to get rates that cheap. Workers Comp here covers the medical bills and the 70% of lost earnings. In various states and various trades, I've seen the rate run from 11% to 47%

    I have to assume that in Canada, since the medical is "free" already, that cost is not included for coverage in the rate, but lost earnings is. One of three things must be happening to justify this;

    >A lot more people are getting hurt and losing time from work

    >The wages that must be replaced are rising ( I doubt it)

    >The underwwriters are doing some cost sliding. Is your insurance private?

    .

    Excellence is its own reward!

    "The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.

    The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."

    --Marcus Aurelius

    1. jimblodgett | Nov 29, 2002 03:28am | #9

      Is that what we're talkin', workman's comp.?

      Here in Washington we don't have to pay anything into workman's comp, or "State Industrial" as we call it, unless we have employees.  One man gangs CAN pay it on themselves, but it's cost prohibitive.

      When we do pay into it, it's a flat rate per hour, based on the type of work you're doing, not a percentage of anything.

      Are we talkin' workman's comp?

      Brinkmann for president in '04

      1. FrankB89 | Nov 29, 2002 03:53am | #10

        I think we're talking Workers Comp and I think WA and OR are similar.  It's required if you have employees (you'd be nuts NOT to have them covered) and the rates vary depending on the sic code of the employee.  Usually, as you say,  it's a rate per hour or per $100 of wages based on whatever the pencil pushers have figured out.

        I understand some states are starting to require workers comp on sole proprietors and maybe that's what this guy is grousing about.Jules Quaver for President   2004

        1. Adrian | Nov 29, 2002 05:09am | #11

          Nova Scotia rates are 5.70 per $100 for finish carpenetry, 7.20 or something like that for framing; most of the other carpentry stuff is in between, mostly in the sixes. Roofing is between 10 and eleven. required if you have three on the payroll; I think you can't opt out even if you go back to one.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S

          1. bishopbldr | Nov 30, 2002 05:17am | #12

            Here in the "Great" state of New York, WC rates have supposedly been held in check or even reduced by our government, but what they don't tell you is that even though the carpenters' rate droped a couple dollars a hundred, there are now 2 different surcharges added to the rate that add something like 18-20% on top. Also, we now have to seperate residential and commercial payroll as the commercial has another surcharge. I think we need more politicians in this state!

            Bish

          2. FrankB89 | Nov 30, 2002 06:30am | #13

            Ya got Hillary, how many more could you possibly need?Jules Quaver for President   2004

  3. Floorman | Nov 30, 2002 07:03pm | #14

    14.66% for hardwood floor installation and finishing in California. Have two employees. Carpet and vinyl installers pay 19.59% and tile installers pay 19.42%. All these rates are based on total employee gross wages per month. GW

  4. stossel1 | Nov 30, 2002 09:15pm | #15

    As a framing sub in colorado I am paying 20% for comp. That is for every  $100 I pay out comp cost me $20. As my friend Tim says "its a money grab." I've got a buddy framing in Calgary who was shocked at what we pay here in the states.

    1. Piffin | Dec 01, 2002 12:44am | #16

      My first comp policy in Florida in the early seventies cost me something like $180 for the year....When I was knocking down the magnificent sum of $400 a week..

      Excellence is its own reward!

      "The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.

      The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."

      --Marcus Aurelius

      1. jimblodgett | Dec 01, 2002 12:48am | #17

        "When I was knocking down the magnificent sum of $400 a week."

        That was some serious dough in the early 70's.

        Brinkmann for president in '04

        1. Piffin | Dec 01, 2002 02:03am | #18

          I was a pretty fast shingle layer back then.

          Sixteen sq a day at 4-6 bucks per.

          Excellence is its own reward!

          "The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.

          The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."

          --Marcus Aurelius

          1. RickLouquet | Dec 01, 2002 03:00am | #19

            I pay close to $800.00 or so a year for workers comp.  I have no employees, not a dime of payroll, no casual labor, nothing.  It doesn't matter.  In addition, I am not covered personally by the policy, that is an additional policy of about 9% or something.  It's a racket if you ask me.

            Rick

          2. Piffin | Dec 01, 2002 03:25am | #20

            I guess,

            If you have no employees, and you don't cover yourself, what is the policy for? What state?.

            Excellence is its own reward!

            "The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.

            The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."

            --Marcus Aurelius

          3. RickLouquet | Dec 01, 2002 10:29am | #21

            Piffin,

              I live in NJ.  The policy is to protect the builders and the contractor that I work for.  If I don't have it, they consider me an employee and the contractor has to pay.  It's still not absolute protection, the guy I do 90% of my work for recently won in arbitration on another subcontractor and still had to pay.  It's kinda like extortion.

            Rick

          4. gordsco | Dec 01, 2002 05:39pm | #22

             Here in Canada I seem to remember the Minister of Finance (Martin) balancing the Federal Budget with the WCB and EI surplus. However, considering what our neighbors to the south pay for insurance in American Dollars and that no employee (if you had one) has the right to sue because of mandatory Workers Compensation coverage, its pretty cheap insurance.

            Gordsco

            Edited 12/1/2002 9:43:25 AM ET by GORDSCO

          5. Piffin | Dec 02, 2002 12:43am | #23

            That's kind of what I suspected - balancing the budget by theft from the insurance fund.

            canada isn't the onnly one tho'

            In Maine, a few years back, they "borrowed" from the teachers retirement fund to balance and cover for bad planning and giveaway programs to get elected..

            Excellence is its own reward!

            "The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.

            The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."

            --Marcus Aurelius

          6. roucru | Dec 03, 2002 09:15pm | #24

            We are in WNC. I have been shopping for WC for the last few months. We have subs and one on payroll. Since most subs don't have WC we have to count them as payroll employees. We can't get a discount so far  because we don't have WC, thus no track record. I know some will chew me out on this one. I agree that it is a MUST! Even as small as we are we are talking thousands and thousands of dollars a year. It makes being a small company harder and harder. My take is though if you don't have it you can end up losing everything. Also just in case you don't know being Inc. or LLC does not save you if you were to be sued. A good lawyer will get around that. Meaning that you can lose not only your business but EVERYTHING (even the personal stuff). I still want to know if any of you belong to a group to help cut down on the WC cost or is there such a thing? Also have checked into providing health insurance, but our own rates have JUMPED! It is getting to the point that I don't know if we can carry WC and health insurance for the crew. My first priority is to get WC. I know that most here carry WC if not all. Please don't jump all over me on this one.Tamara

          7. jimblodgett | Dec 03, 2002 11:55pm | #25

            Hiring "sub contractors" instead of employees is a long standing practice in the building trades.  Many contractors do it to avoid paying WC and social security, and unemployment insurance, and matching fedral and state income taxes.  The "subs" do it because they think they are getting paid in what amounts to "cash".

            Now I don't want to misspeak, so I hope someone will come along with the accurate figures, but if you work as a sub contractor for one G.C. more than 40% (that's the number I'm not sure about) of your gross receipts, I believe you are considered an "employee" by both the I.R.S. and at least the State of Washington (where I work). 

            What this means is, even though LOTS of people work under this type agreement, it's against the law.  And if they catch you, they are gonna spank you publicly to deter others.  If you think people don't get caught at this type stuff every day, you're wrong.  I worked for a contractor in the early 80's who used a similar scheme to circumvent Davis/Bacon wage requirements on a fedral project and not only did he have to pay us all the back wages he legally owed us, he went to prison.  Fact.

            All you guys thinkin' you can't afford to pay WC and whatnot need to raise your rates.

            Brinkmann for president in '04

          8. roucru | Dec 04, 2002 12:05am | #26

            What I was told by the WC people was that if a sub didn't have their own coverage then we have to figure their wages for us in the grand scheme of things. No if ands or buts. I think you are probably correct about the 40%, but not 100% sure. I am sure someone here knows.Tamara

          9. xMikeSmith | Dec 04, 2002 12:25am | #27

            here's our rates: (Rhode Island only )

            Carps: 1 & 2 Family dwellings....$14.89 / $100

            Clerical Office.....$0.44 / $100

            Contractor Construction Superintendent.... $3.82 / $100

            these are then modified for an Experience ( less 15% )  and a Schedule mod ( less 5%) so deduct about 20% from the above rates so we actually pay $11.91 for Carps.Mike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

          10. User avater
            JeffBuck | Dec 04, 2002 12:26am | #28

            Jim...I looked into the sub/employee thing as far as I could before my eye's glazed over....at the begining of this year..when I was laid off....then started to sub alot for the company that laid me off.

            Far as I could tell.......the answer all depends who ya ask!

            From the IRS website......and from PA's website......I found a coupla answers that kinda agree with each other...and made sense to me......maybe I just found what I was looking for!

            Basically...my take on it......the IRS and Gov wrap it up as.....has nothing to do with the amount of time spent working for one company...has everything to do with how that time is spent.

            A legal sub.....starts and stops when he wants....shows when he wants...does the job in any manner he wants......in any order he wants.....

            My arrangement is they supply materials....I supply labor/equip/fasteners.

            I see the prints and wlk thru for the scope....I have to build what they want.....but they can't tell me to specifically how to do each job...each step of the way.....they just have to be happy with the final product.

            I interpret it as working for any other customer......they tell me what end result they want...and can specify which materials to use.....but I do the driving.

            I've heard lotsa other opinions on what makes a sub/employee....and real info is hard to come by, but this wa the best I could come up with.....and it made sense to me......so I'll take it.

            And...the burden wouldn't fall on me either! It would be the hiring company that the IRS would have a problem with.....and my eye's hurt......so I stoppped looking.

            Would a flat tax help sort out this mess? If so...sign me up.

            JeffBuck Construction   Pittsburgh,PA

             Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite                  

          11. User avater
            BillHartmann | Dec 04, 2002 12:56am | #29

            Jeff you are right

            There is a 20 question "test". But there is no single pass/fail on it. It depends on weight of all of the questions.

            For example working for a period of time for one person does not, in it'self, makes them an employee. Not if you are still soliciting business from others.

            http://www.taxprophet.com/apps/active2/indep-mm.html

            But this is for IRS ONLY.

            Many states have much different requirements for computing workers comp. Some include all sub-contractors under the contractors policy unless they can prove that the sub-contractor has their own.

            In some states a sole-propitor sub-contractor can wavier out of workers comp and can file that with the contractor.

          12. User avater
            JeffBuck | Dec 04, 2002 04:25am | #32

            Thanks for the list....I was going on what I summed up from about a million other pages! Now I know for sure....as far as the Fed goes.....PA state is real similar...their rules I know even better.

            JeffBuck Construction   Pittsburgh,PA

             Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite                  

          13. Piffin | Dec 04, 2002 02:16am | #31

            The IRS rules on employees and the state liability rules that cover comp are two separate things that coincidentally overlap. The IRSis concerned with getting their tax money. The comp Board is concerned with covering people who get hurt on the job.

            The 40% might be a rule of thumb where the red flag goes up but it has no legal basis. The IRS has a list of twenty items that, if all are met, absolutely certify beyond question that a person is a sub instead of an emp. Meet ten of them and you are in grey area where it gets hard to prove..

            Excellence is its own reward!

            "The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.

            The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."

            --Marcus Aurelius

          14. Piffin | Dec 04, 2002 02:08am | #30

            Tamara,

            I spend 6-7 thousand a year on comp. It is a must have. Even for subs.

            Eventually, if a worker gets hurt on a site ands crippled for life, it is the landowner who would have to pony up if I didn't have coverage or the assests to provide for his family. What kind of person would I be to subject my customers to that kind of risk without them knowing? And beyond that, What kind of business could I expect to have in the future if I allowed that kind of liability to pass to one of them? Word would be out and no one would hire me. Even my subs get covered. I pass the cost on to the customer and sleep easier..

            Excellence is its own reward!

            "The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.

            The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."

            --Marcus Aurelius

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