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I am a 14 year carp in the bay area and going rate is 25 to 30 a hr.
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Bay area is pricey. Good lead framers and finish guys get $20 - $25 in RI. Journeymen get 15 - 20.
Guys I know in MA get more. I think the BIG DIG pays $35 so contractors have to keep up.
*Have several frame carpentry crews...this topic interests me, and i will watch to see what develops.here in central indiana, hourly wage I pay 10-13$ hr for carpenters with 5 yrs experience.... 15$ for lead carpentersstart laborers at 8$
*they don't get paid enough...that's why i work for myself. here on marthas vineyard island most experienced (10 yr) carpenters are getting $25-$30 if they work for someone else. but the thing is alot of them are getting paid as "subs" and get no benefits,no workers compensation,no paid holidays or vacation... you get the picture.i worked that way for other guys for years before i felt confident enough to step out on my own. best move i ever made,you couldn't pay me enough to go back to work for someone else again. having been on the other side of the fence i try to treat the guy that works for me with respect and if i do well on a job i don't hesitate to give him a few extra bucks when the job is finished. i don't know any lead carpenters around here that would even bother getting out of bed for $15. not in this economy anyhow... happy hammering guys
*There was an ad in our local paper(Eastern Iowa) recnetly advertising for a lead carpenter. Pay was $40,000 with no benefits. Dave.
*Eric,That is the very reason I work for myself now. You absolutely can not make a living working for someone else in this area. I also believe that is why you have so many fly-by-night,bullsh&t work going on here(in Indpls). If you don' pay a man a decent wage for an honest days work how can you expect anyone with any kind of self-respect to do anything but crap work. I was making $10hour 10 years ago working for Cunningham building 12,000 sq ft customs. Sorry about the rant but this is a subject that really, really pisses me off. I think it is time to raise the bar here.
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I'm presently a carpenter with 14 yrs. experience working in the Marblehead area of Mass. 20.00 to 25.00 is the rate around here, give or take. Still no health ins. but do get vaca. ,holiday , and Simple IRA. Still not enough to make a decent living in this state with a family of four. Maybe someday....
*Here in Idaho wages are pretty low. $12 to $15/hr for experienced lead carpenters. In the resort areas around Sun Valley. Experienced carpenters $18-$25/hr. Little or no benefits. Workers provide most if not all their own tools. But that is another subject. Not enough to get ahead on. Wonder why there is a shortage of skilled help? Work in all kinds of weather, no running water, gross bath room facilities, poor wages, bottom of the food chain. To the young guys out there stay in School.
*I was in portland,ore working for the last 3 years and it sounds the same.
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Whoa, boys. Let's look at this from a different point of view. How many of you have bosses that are living fat? Those of you with the big corps, stay out of this, you'll skew the averages.
I don't know of too many making the kind of dough to really grow the business besides providing a decent wage to their employees. In fact, most rely on those gravy jobs to make it through the year. Otherwise, their just filling the schedule while trying to hustle up some good work. What if those gravy jobs don't come? Why, they just dip into their creditline a little deeper.
I'm not trying to defend a substandard rate of pay, but if the money's not there...
Is it just me or does anyone see something wrong with paying for all fixed costs--including gas for the truck--on the credit cards, and running a balance? This business is quite a pickle we're in.
The poor pay scale is just a symptom. The real culprit here is the low bidder, the guy without the overhead, the guy not paying insurance premiums, work comp., etc. Another factor is increased costs of goods, yet when was the last time labor rates kept up?
To those of you on your own now: do you have employees, full time? Are you paying the going rate, or only what you can afford? I think the trend is back towards a 'cottage industry'. Sure, we'll all make what we're worth, but we'll all be a 'one bucket operation'. Which means, to preserve any semblance to a const. schedule, we'll be fighting, nay clawing, over each other to get the work. I say let's lynch the low bidder, and burn the guy who hires him. C'mon boys, let's git 'em.
(expletive deleted)the tradesman is getting squeezed out, but how many times have I heard a banker, stock broker, lawyer, etc. tell me he wished he knew how to do what I know how to do?
It's so easy to point the finger at any one thing, but it really is more than that. Sorry to rain, or snow for some of you, on your parade.
*Right on Rich,Homebuilding and remodeling is extrememely price driven, more so than just about anything. I find that if my price is say 10k higher than the low bidder, the customer is planning how to spend the "savings" before I am even done with my presentation. When you know as well as I do that the 10k is not additional profit to me, but mostly added value over the low bid. This is not likely to change soon I think.Any how, I pay my guys from $7-$13 (payroll, with wc,and vacation, etc.), and right now I perform the lead function. I find that most customers are unwilling to pay more than $20/hr on a t/m job. I try to bid every thing obviously, and when I do bid double the gross wage/hr, before profit and overhead.I have great sympathy for my men, because I know that I could not support my family on 350/week take home. But when you factor in 40% over wage for payroll cost, 12 equals $16.80 netting me $2.80 or $5600/yr profit off of one man. I would need 12 men to make what I could make by myself.I agree, that the problem is the scabs that come in under what a going concern can do the job for. The work that I lose, I lose to companies that were not in business for more than two years, and historically are not in business for much longer than the completion of the job. Another phenomenon unique to my area is the Amish who have there children work, don't pay workmens comp or payroll taxes, etc. I would love to hear from one of them on this board (jakey takes his pneumatic laptop out to the phone he keeps in a shed out at the end of his lot and logs in, ha, ha!) I'm doing what I can to raise the bar by educating customers, contractors and anyone else who will listen about the evils of "subbin'"(you know, hourly to avoid payroll taxes), uninsured contractors, and shoddy work. Thats all I can do, and I think this board helps alot in that area. Tom
*Mike.... not reading your post as ranting... reading it as frustration with the indy labor market.. and the way builders/developers do biz...I have been in the framing biz on and off for almost 30 years and have always worked on, what i consider, quality homes. The builders tell me that my contract price is higher than the other guys around, so I have always had to sell the quality of my work as being value driven for the builder. I know it seems like i pay low wages, but i think we are very productive and have a tough time making 30% gross profit on our jobs. As an employer hung out for all the liability involved, I feel that % is not enough for the risk involved. If I were to raise my employees wages 15-20%, they feel like they are still underpaid, and I am not interested in taking the risk for 10-15% gross profit... kind of a catch 22, if you want my opinion.The tact I am taking now is.. offer an average wage rate, along with health benefits, paid holidays, paid vacations, and a safe place to work. I continue to raise my pricing to cover my costs and try to make it worth my time for the liabilities involved..Nobody makes enough to pay for the groceries if we're out of a job....or just working half time at an increased wage rate.
*It all depends where your at. I'm in Cape Breton, Nova Scotia, pop.130,000 for the whole Island. Everyone here is a carpenter,or thinks he is. The union guys get $30.00 an hour when they are working, and most will go for $100 a day by moonlight. In residential, legit jobs will pay $12-16, but you don't see this much. Lots of guys work for $5-8 (Can. money, which ain't worth much right now), cash, no benfits, unemployment insurance, etc. I am maybe the only journeyman cabinetmaker on the Island, have my own shop, we do nice trim as well and some other things to keep our good customers happy. We try to give exceptional value and service, basically do the best work around and I bring on top quality guys when I need them. If everything goes right, we get the job at the quoted price, I make on paper $14 bucks, after twelve years experience and an investment into my shop of $60-70 000. Yesterday they announced they were closing the coal mine (1700 guys) so I figure 700 new roofers, 200 new cabinetmakers, 500 new framers, etc.Jeez, its enough to make you want to go back to bed.
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I think his name is TOM Peters. demographics expert. Everything he predicted, projected is happening.
So unless there is a great influx of skill from somewhere, there will be fewer of us (skilled carpenters) than there used to be.
We have way too much quality work to try to keep up with which deprives us of the time necessary to win starvation contests.
So if you can't read this particular rant on the wall due to non factual self fulfilling prophecies you should seriously consider assembling (and living in) tents. might require moving to a more temperate climate, but this move is something to consider if you live in an area infested with a surplus of people willing to work for substandard wages or any overabundance of pound foolish and penny wise customers or contractors.
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In case my previous post sounded too negative, I'm sticking in there and I hope to prove that there are standards and that the best value doesn't always come from the lowest bid. That said, I am also reading a demographer, David Foot in this case (as well as Bill Gates "The Road Ahead"), and while it contains valuable information, you have to read between some of the lines. According to Foot, the future looks very good for the remodeling industry, not so good for the homebuilding industry as the mass of boomers will move into smaller digs, and the post-boomers will buy existing housing stock and renovate (monster homes aren't specifically mentioned). There will also be more emphasis on professionalisation. So, on the surface, things look good for skilled craftsmen. The flip side of it is, as renovation booms, its going to attract even more hackers than it does now. Face it , if you get downsized out of a job, your weekend DIY skills start looking pretty good. Tools are cheap relative to other businesses, carpentry and cabinetmaking aren't regulated trades in most provinces and states anymore, formal apprenticeships are mostly a thing of the past, the work is out there, and all you need to set up are a truck, a business card, and the most sketchy idea of how to do what you are bidding on. Besides, all you have to do is beat the other guy's bid right? The customer, for the most part, is conditioned to want it done fast and cheap, the faster and cheaper the better. Just refer to some of the other threads on this site for evidence of that. So what do you do if this is the situation in your area? Move to another place, maybe a big city? From what I am seeing on this and other forums, it isn't any better on the other side of the road. Just hang on, the demographics are on your side? As renovation booms, the number of hackers looking to cash in will boom exponentially. I believe that is what most of us have seen in the last ten years. I don't know what the answer is; probably for most of us it is to keep on doing what we love, try and run our businesses smart, surround ourselves with people who care about doing quality work and do our best for them, and hope the message gets through before this way of doing things is lost. I know in our area dozens of men went to Japan in the last couple of years to build, cause they allowed their carpenters to die out. Maybe there is a lesson there.
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Hi, y'all.
I'm one of those DIY folks, but we've had one house built and remodelled another, my parents have had two houses built - if it's one thing we've learned in all of this . . .
YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.
Too many home buyers, as you say, are looking to have stuff done on the cheap. They pay for it in suffering afterwards (I know that's cold comfort for you all). The house we are living in now was built by a guy (an accountant) who thought he was getting a real good deal by taking the low, low bid. We have ripped out and replaced much of the "low bid" work, and we've paid going rates to quality craftsmen to do it, too.
Hang in there. Once somebody's been burned by a low bidder, next time they'll want the job done right.
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WOW, did this question get out of control!!Oh well, here's my 2 cents worth(about a days wages).2 1/2 yrs ago I left the company I was with as lead carpenter,making $9/hr,no beni's,only $25/wk tool allowance,which I had almost every hand & power tool a guy would need.At the time he had 15 employees,don't know about now, but he was living pretty high on the hog.Seems like a pretty big profit margin to me!Anyway,I quit and went out on my own.Best thing I have ever done.After almost 2 yrs in business for myself,I have built 5 homes(start to finish),several remodels,numerous window & siding replacements,reroofing,concrete flat work,etc.I have heard all the horror stories and complaints of being an independent contractor,but I love what I am doing now and wouldn't go back to the other side of the coin for anything.Yes, it is tough to make a good wage,whether your self employed or work for someone.I think it always has been,listening to elders I think we have it pretty good! For your info.,I am a young father of 4,mortgage,bills,just like the rest of you.Started my business with borrowed money from the bank(ladders,scaffold,compressors,nailers,etc.).Was able to pay it off in 8 months.Kept my rate down to get work,did guality work to build a reputation,now I don't advertise(except for the sign on my truck),have all the work I need by word of mouth(the best advertising there is),and paying the bills.I think it's great to be able to do what I love and get paid for it(most of the time).Anyway, my point is,keep doing the quality work you all are doing,and you'll find that when things really do get tough,you'll be the ones that people like Martha will call. By the way, if I charged what you all do,I'd be spending alot more time playing on the computer because I wouldn't have any jobs.Maybe it's because of my area(northeastern Iowa)or maybe our living standards are lower,but going hourly rate to the customer is $15-$20.I pay my guys(2)$9/hr.,no beni's,but I give a percentage of bid jobs that I do well on as a bonus.I'm not the fly-by-nighter,but rather I am a registered contractor in state of Iowa,pay w.c.,payroll taxes,liability,unemployment,all the good stuff a guy needs to stay in business for the duration. Thanks for listening and looking forward to chatting with you good people again as I am new to this forum and really enjoy the discussions I've seen.
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maj, If you were unhappy making $9/hr. 2 1/2 yrs. ago, how long do you think your guys will be happy with that today? I'm guessing you're paying what you think you can, but just be prepared for the day when one or more leave as you once did.
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I am in the Cleveland , Ohio area and have been in the business since 1980 . I have run jobs for Commericial Contractors, been a union contractor, have had a partner, have employed up to six union carpenters, have built additions and homes, I just turned 40 and I am back on my own again and loving it. I HAVE to charge $32.00 per hour if I want to make $25.00 ( plus 25% is for taxes). If you are honest, do only the work you know you can do, keep the job site clean and organized and most of all DON"T burn your bridges you can make this and more per hour.
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I have gone the way of the big builder, and i too prefer to work alone offering a wide range of skills and up to date methods for accomplishing difficult jobs. I also do some of the design work. I had a carpenter work for me for 4 years and paid him $25 per hour! But he began to have difficulty finding his way to the job site, so i let him go. he was getting paid good money and would find an excuse to take at least a day per week.
The bottom line is that the trades are a difficult place to make a living, and many of the workers it attracts are cowboys that will leave at a moments notice or simply not show up at all. I try to be the carpenter that I could never find, and it seems to be working out better than ever. I charge 40.00 - 45.00 and hour and always get paid.
the
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Barry,yes, I am prepared for workers leaving, I don't have a problem with it.I failed to mention that one of my workers is part time student who works minimal hours(only when I need 3 of us),The other works fulltime,happens to be my bro.-in-law,and is very,very inexperienced. I had 14 yrs experience when I was making $9/hr.
*Hi Steve.In 1983, I moved from San Francisco to San Diego. My woodshop was on Mississippi Street, Potrero Hill area. In those days $20-30 hour was the going rate.When I moved to San Diego, 1983, I found skilled carpenters getting $5-8 hour, with all their tools. So, I did plumbing for $15 hour, until an ad in the paper came out saying finish carpenters wanted $20.99 hour.The job was at the Mariner's Cove Apartment Complex. It was an $18 million, 500 unit, HUD Section 8 low income housing project, so Davis-Bacon prevailing wages were supposed to be paid.Well, as it turned out, my employer was the low bidder. He had all kinds of methods for paying. And my $20.99 hour never seemed to materialize, even though all the signs indicated thats what we were supposed to be getting.I kept track of my time and efforts, and made claim for backwages, which I received on 12-15-83.Right after that, the guys on the job said that because I got that $8000 in backwages, there wasnt enough in the boss's bank account to pay them. And they were going to have a crummy Christmas because of me. I told them there were bonds on that job, their money was guaranteed by HUD, and I would help them.So, I helped them. There was 22 of us at the Mariner's Cove Apartments. About 8 of us were under our one employer. The others were for the other subs.All 8 of us went around downtown to all the Federal Buildings we thought would help. Each Federal Agency sent us to another Federal Agency. We were always getting pushed aside.Then we went to Congressman Duncan Hunter's Office. And things started to happen. But we were trying to get the guys paid. So, the news was next.Rory Divine, Channel 39 News came to my house to interview me, with all my law books and records. Then she went to Congressman Hunter's Office to interview the aide, who said the problem of Davis-Bacon underpayment of wages was significant. And then Rory Divine said this, or something close to this..."perhaps these claims have become so significant because of a US Attorney's Office that is reluctant to file criminal charges in these matters"...And so, the US Attorney's Office filed charges against my employer and about 10 others. The investigation was done and it was reported that 1280 workers were found due $1.7 million in backwages. And a lot of people from HUD got fired. And, on 4-15-85, my employer was sentenced for filing false document.Immediately after that, the government reprisals started against me. Of course, there was blacklisting before that. You know, having your name blasted throughout the news just tells the contractors who dont pay properly not to hire you. And at that time, in that city, it was most of them.So, the first government reprisal was a summons for 18 months of Federal Grand Jury service. (How many carpenters are doing that?)And the rest followed. And every time they did something to me, I saved the evidence and filed a claim in the proper court. And every time I filed a claim in the court, the court would ignore it, and force me through some other hoops in this system of theirs.At the end of my 13 years fighting the corruption in government that I was documenting, I have about 30 claims all consolidated to case #95-2437 KEEP, San Diego Federal Court. Most of all the other Federal Judges recused, so Chief Judge Keep got the case. But she has ignored it.In the beginning, I used to get threatening calls from the Governor's Office. After threatening to manipulate the justice system against me, I went to the FBI. They said that I did not want the bullshit hanging over my head for the rest of my life so I should fight. So I did.And now, I have shared a little bit of my experience on this board.There is much more to building than pounding nails. Sometimes it is better to seek first doing good in one's work, knowing that rest will be added unto.Hope this helps.
*Alan, in case anyone were to doubt what you have said; I believe what you have said. I believe because I have seen examples of shady business in construction. City, county, state, federal; you name it, there is graft and duplicity rampant in the const. industry. But not just the primes and subs, but the agency's agents too.My latest run-in was on a federal military installation. Only after writing and speaking to several senators was I able to clean-up the mess which started with non-payment of subs. The only backlash I experienced was disqualification of bidder.Just keep a detailed log of every job you do, it will come in very handy some day.
*Thanks for saying so, Rich.You were fortunate to have the assistance of those Senators.In my case, one of the reprisals was a malicious prosecution. They tried to put me in jail for 14 years on charges that never quite seemed to get honed down to particulars. One two-page letter from Senator Pete Wilson's office and instead of 14 years in jail, I got two days building a porch on an Indian Reservation.But I new that the court who got that letter, was not happy letting me go, and the 8 years probation was going to hang on my head if I did not address it. The way it was worded, I could have got jail time for jay-walking.What surprised me the most was the government. I was one of those that thought the government was on my side, if I only abided by the laws. For me, knowing the laws was key. And so I learned. All that I really had to do, for a very long time, was learn the law. When one is fighting this type of corruption, only the truth can set them free.What bothers me, of the many things I seem unable to do anything about, is the fact that citizens are helpless against the winds of politics; thus, law enforcement; despite the fact that laws exist to protect citizens from such tyrany. Especially, in the United States of America.But, in my case, both President Bush and President Clinton requested that my case be investigated, and the Inspector General refused, saying my case was too convoluted.I think that government should suffer the damages incurred by its victims. And that is what case #95-2437 KEEP , San Diego Federal Court, is all about. All of those cases that I documented and filed became "causes-in-action" under Bankruptcy, 11USC1302. The US Trustee should be fighting on my behalf.The judges will not abide by laws created by the opposition party. So, whats to be done?
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prevailing wage in the Corvallis Or, area seems to be less than $14. The guys that work with me start there and go up, some now malking 18 or 19(after 2 years). Other friends and builders tell me I am to high. Yet I havent lost one guy and we have plenty of work. I just started insurance for them and paid holidays.On some jobs they get a cut in tools or meals or gas. I am not making as much as some of the other generals in the area but that is not why I'm in the "show". When we hired some temps or people at lower wages "I got what I paid for" in "missing tools" late arrivals and shoddy work that we would have to re do. the biggest threat that I see for any of us in the area ( I have been for years) is the low balling out of towner or major company that comes in and throws up crap. When they fall apart all builders get a bad rap.
*I'm a union carpenter from Chicago and the current commercial scale is $26.95 per hour (excluding benefits)
*I have been a carpenter for 6 years in Northern Minnesota, I started at $8.00/hr and am up to $12.00/hr now with no benefits
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responding to this again... because i want to get more input from the carpenters out there.. I employ a few, and didnt read much posted from the midwest
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Here in rural Ontario, a carpenter is lucky to get $15 / hr, which is more like $10 U.S. Pay is a little better in the city, but not by much. People who think nothing of paying a mechanic $45 / hr. to fix their car seem to think a carpenter has less skill and needs less tools to do the job than a mechanic (or an electrician, or a plumber...), and we all know that's not true. By the way, I'm a contractor, and I probably pay my guys better than anyone around here, most contractors won't pay travel one way to the job site like we do, or 1 hr / week banked for sick pay... the low ball bidders can easily undercut our labour rates by 30% and still find skilled people willing to work for them. As a carpenter myself, I would really like to pay my guys like you guys in California do, but we'd price ourselves out of this market. Anyone want to hire a crew of Canadians for the winter?
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This question of wages has brought up quite a mix of responses. I'm not surprised though.
When you ask about wages, I'm assuming that you are interested in knowing the hourly rates of employees.
I am a self employed carpenter contractor in south east Michigan, working the north metro Detroit area.
I pay my three employees each according to their worth. I have a 42 yr old, ten year man at 15.00 + health and holidays. I pay a bright, young, future foreman 14.00 + health and holidays. He started in the trade last spring. He gets a another 1$ every three months up to 25.00. He brought his friend in (also now a 9 month rookie), who will probably not lead, but will be a good right hand man. I pay him 13.34 + health and holidays andd will raise him every three months $.66 for four years.
The young men are very happy. They never miss work, are interested in learning, and are proud of their new found skills.
The older man is very happy too. He was used to working for smucks that wouldn't teach him anything.
I personally don't make enough as a contractor. I live comfortably, but the risks are not worth the payoff. I am leaning towards specing small homes out in the country and abandoning my carpentry career.
I charge 35.00 per hour for my services, but usually do better on bids. We are getting 5.75 per square foot for a rough frame that includes wood siding, windows, doors, and all sheathings. Most homes are 3000+/- ft, with brick on the lower half. The roofs are generally steep, with plenty of reverse layons, offsets, etc. The roof can easily be 33% of the frame time.
My best month last season was in july. We stood up two 3100 ft homes priced at 18000 each for labor, nails and crane.
Luckily the two were identical and we made great time. There was some overtime (yes, I pay time and one half).
If I could frame that particular model all the time, I'd be doing pretty good.
Comments and questions welcome.
blue
"Born free... Taxed to death."
*Brian, what are the benifits? Are they added on top of the wage? Or are they deducted?Blue in MI, heading for Chi Town!
*Here in the Washington Metro area "house carpenters" rate around 15 per hour no extras. Have seen adds for framers at 20 per hour. Worked for a guy many years ago who put one good carpenter on ever job and then added kids to round out the crew. Good trim carpenters can ask a little more for there work but finding one today is hard. Personally I would like to get a kid with some time on job and spend the time teaching him how to do it right. I learned alot from older guys and think that this should be passed on to the next bunch of carpenters. I try to round out everones knowledge of building from start to finish. I pay 10 to 15 per hour and have some simple savings plans. I do look out for my guys and ask that they do the same. I agreed that most carpenters are under paided and that it takes 4 to 5 years for some one to get really good. Hate to see guys who have done only one thing for years and call themselfs carpenters. Hired a guy who talked a good talk and who had hung doors for years. Had no idea how to trim the door or how to lay out a wall. If this trend keeps on what will hapen to all the carp.'s???????
*Ross:Before you knock mechanics cost of tools, you need to step on to a Snap-On-Tools truck and price the tools they purchase. Most top notch mechanics will have $10,000 in personal tools. The shop, which gets part of that $45.00 per hour is also trying to pay back the $100,000 plus ammount of alignment machines, engine analizers, lifts, computer information systems, freon recovery equipment ( R-12 & R-134 ), tire changers, welders, etc. plus a building to work in.Frank
*Bill, I found the best way to teach them is to let them do it all.The first wall that the rookie builds, is the first wall that he lays out!They learn fast!Teachin' in Mi,Blue"Ever stop to think and forget to start again?"
*whats going to happen to carpentry???? if we dont get back to training the new guys??? Our craft will suffer big time.. and we will be looked at like we are used car salesmen or worse....I too learned from a seasoned carpenter.. and i think of him often... even though he is no longer with us... Thanks Jim!!Eric
*Sorry Frank, didn't mean to knock mechanics! I carry $7,000 worth of tools in my $20,000 truck at all times, and each guy on my crew probably has at least another $1,500 worth of personal tools in their own trucks. Back at the shop are the other $10,000+ worth of tools we own. The shop we can't afford to build ($40,000) has another $20,000 worth of imaginary shop tools in it. Then there's the office, design studio, computers, bid bonds, etc. etc....$100,000 is barely enough for a small construction company. We may not spend quite as much on tools as mechanics, but we'd sure like to! Anyways, I wasn't taking a shot at mechanics, but at people who don't think a skilled carpenter deserves a decent wage. I hate working on my car, I bring it to you guys and pay whatever you say it's worth!
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I'm looking for input regarding wages and opportunities for remodel carpenters in the Portland area.Also am interested in how the rainy weather affects projects.I,m currently working in the Black Hills of South Dakota.I mostly work solo,prefer a relation with my customers where i leave as a friend (handshakes still do work around here)I charge $25 per hour including my time picking materials (still an option here).Thanks.GML
*I'm a construction superintendent for a company on the Big Island of Hawaii. We pay our carpenters $24 an hour, no paid holidays, but paid medical and dental. We also have a profit sharing plan which goes into effect after 3 years of continuous employment. I have 2 observations- Our labor burden is about 38%. That means that a carpenter making $24/hr costs us a little over $33/hr, and, get this, if he's single claiming 1, takes home about $19/hr. I actually had one guy that figured out that the difference between working 4 days a week and 5 days a week was about $20 on his check, so he decided that for $20, he'd stay home one day a week. I sympathized, but gave him the obvious choiceŠ The second observation is that I don't have one carpenter on my present crew that's under the age of 30, and most of them are over 35. Where are all of the kids? And considering attrition, what are carpenters going to be making in another 20 years, when they're in short supply? Just wonderingŠ Ken
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Ken, your commercial?
Most of residential is kids. One oldtimer surrounded by many kids. I'd tear my hair out.
Blue, keeping his sanity in MI
*Well blue tired of baby sitting?Know the feeling of kids in the crew. Average age of my guys are 26. You mean you had to drive all those nails by hand???
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Hey, Blue,
Nope, strictly high-end residential.I have 20-something laborers, but all of the carpenters wear glasses. I don't know whyŠ maybe because I'm getting up there in years myself, I'm pre-disposed to hiring older help. Still, most of the guys that come around looking for work are on the older side. Ken
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Bill, I was tired of babysiting twenty years ago, and I was only twenty five then!
Last spring, I was forced to re-build a custom house crew. It took three houses to find the right mix. I was looking for older guys, but was willing to train a new motivated apprentice.
I landed a 43 old guy, who nobody would teach, or let him see the plans. He had about 6 years, but they were 6 bad years. He's learning fast.
The real surprise was a young tool and die worker that wanted to switch trades. I interviewed him onsite, and he agreed to give (his current employer) two weeks notice, and would show up with all the tools (hammer, bag, saw, cord, etc.) He seemed bright, understood prints, geometry, etc., but I didn't think he would actually do it.
I was wrong, and he was the right guy!
The first day, he layed out his own garage wall, built it, sheathed it, put the overhang on it, raised it, and the rest is history. He just seems to know what to do, and ask the right questions. He will overule anything I say, if the situation warrants it, and he is usually right.
The last house, he not only built the partially self supporting, cantilevered circular stairs, but he also was in charge (I took last week off) of getting the upstairs built, and ready for trusses. I went in monday to set the trusses with them (I shoulda stayed home), and he is now buttoning up the roof and taking care of the punch list (I'm still off).
There is hope for today's youth! He is only twenty, but thinks like a forty year old.
I'm not baby sitting any more! Of course, I haven't for many years.
And yes, I drove many a ton of nails by hand. The worst was: 8d bright, blunt point, screw shanks into frozen 3/4 ply, into frozen yellow pine joist! Even today's nail gun wouldn't dent that stuff!
Blue
*Ken, what is the ratio of laborers to carpenters?!20 seems high! I quit using laborers a few years ago. I found that the job goes much smoother without them. We never have piles of materials in the way any more.I'm building 3000+ custom homes, and find that the four of us get jammed up if everything doesn't go quite right. I can't imagine how it would be with 6 or 7!My guys were glasses too...safety glasses!Blue
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Yikes is that US funds.Up here in Vancouver BC
Canada $27/hr on the high end down to $15/hr and
plumbers pushing the $50/hr!
*When I left(escaped) the Bay area 8 years ago the rate was $20-25/hr. Here in Bend,Oregon it's $15-20 now and the cost of living ain't that cheap!I've been self-employed for quite a while and make ends meet but let's face it, carpenters do what they do because they love doing it. The other trades (most of them), require fewer tools, require less experience, pay better, usually have benefits, are easier on the old body,yada yada yada. Building stuff is fun and most carpenters like that aspect. Personally, I don't care how much something else pays, I'm gonna keep on building as long as I can.
*I dont suppose...that Patrick...is Patrick Lombardi...in Bend????DNickelson
*Yes boss, it's one in the same. I escaped to the dry side this past summer. It's good to hear your cyber-voice. Let's catch up some [email protected].
*Im a self employed carpenter in the Ottawa area( thats Canada)I getaround 20.00 an hour for hourly work and aim for 25.00 on quoted stuff.I was working for 14.00 an hour and got tired of the goverment taking half.Dont know just yet if it was the right move or not but the stress level seems down.I figured that if Im buying the tools i might as well get the deductions.As far as the future of the trade look out, We have apprenticeships up here but the lisence means nothing unless you are in the union. When i started out we built the hole house save for the drywall, now it seems even the door handle is subbed out.
*Gregg, I've lived and worked as a carpenter/builder in the western Oregon for 7 years although I recently moved to central Oregon which is high and dry. Your current wage structure should be about the same in Portland. The rain is something to be considered. The Pacific Northwest is in an extended pattern of above "normal" rainfall with records being set regularly. If you don't work in the rain, you don't work. I generally miss only a couple of days a year due to rain, but I've worked weeks at a time with raingearand rubber boots on. I generally sweep water off the decks every morning and I pay close attention to leaving expansion gaps on sheathing and siding. I've got about 15 chalklines and tape measures last about 2 weeks. If you're a hearty soul, it won't bother you that much. It's rarely below freezing and when the sun shines, there is simply no way to describe howappreciative you feel. Things get built in Portland and it's a great city too.
*I live in central Kansas and work for a small construction company. I do anything from framing to trim work to building cabinets and formica work. I get paid $13 an hour and great benefits, however, I don't feel that it is enough for the variety that I do.
*Hey, Blue, Sorry it's taken so long to reply. My mistake- I meant to say 20 workers. The ratio of laborers to carpenters is about 1 to 3, largely because of the conditions on the particular site I'm working on. It's pie shaped, so access is very restricted, a lot of labor goes to getting materials onto the site where it's needed. The house is about 7000 square feet, and is gonna run about 3.25 mil. to build. I've got about 2.5 months to finish, and the stress is reaching the same levels that it always does at this stage of the job. Neat house, though. It's got a Balinese motif, and sort of half timber-framed, with African Mahogany, and some roof framing like I've never done before. Fortunately, I've got a great crew of carpenters, and they're doing wonderful work. Take care, Ken
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I am a 14 year carp in the bay area and going rate is 25 to 30 a hr.