This is my question and please it is only a question, not a complaint. I need to know what the contractor expects from me and what choices I have in a project. The proposal I was given had pre-selected products included. I believe this is just so he could come up with a cost and give me an accurate bid. When I asked how much he allowed for say flooring, he would not give me the figure. So I’m just wondering how I can estimate the additional cost of a different floor? Do I have to have everything picked out before he gives a quote? Part of the deal was that I would be able to work with their designer/decorator but if I select more expensive products than I would have to scale down the size of the project. I don’t want to sign a contract to have work done that I cannot afford because I picked out a more expensive material.
Is the quote just to give me an idea of cost based on the products included in the bid? At this point, now that I have an idea, do I home in on all the finishing touches and then he rebids based on that?
He is waiting for me, and I am waiting for some assitance in product selection. I have already paid him a design fee, does that give me the access to his designer/decorator now, before we move on? HELP!
Replies
AC,
My opinion. ( and you will get many I would guess) Since I am not sure how your conversation went I will tell you that if all you wanted was an idea of cost then that is what you should have asked for not a quote. I ( and most contractors I know) can ball park a job much more quickly than a true quote. Then if we are on the same page you can get specific. If you want to know how to proceed with this contractor my advice is simply ask him. DanT
Why not ask him? Is there a problem comunicating between the two of you?
Fix that first and alot of your questions can be answered by him.
Ya know? Your're right. I should just ask him. To keep the guess work out of this, the lines of communication must be open. It's probably just a lack of trust on my part - not just with him, but with anybody that I need to work on my only investment - my home.
What is making me question the process is that at one point, I asked for Andersen windows and 2x10 construction but he quoted Alside vinyls and 2x4 construction. Now for me to make that choice, I have to research the pricing on the vinyls as opposed to the Andersens to see if it is worth it to me to change or not. But how can I do that if he doesn't break out the costs. Is he charging me a premium price for a cheaper product?
He flat out refused to tell me what he allowed for kitchen cabinetry. Maybe I want to pay more for a higher end but I have nothing to base my decision on. If he is charging me retail, what if I want to pay more for a higher end cabinet? I would need a dollar figure to decide if it was worth it to me. Should I go to a different cabinet store and pick out what I want and he would have to buy it there at his cost? Should I go out and buy my own products since I'm paying retail anyway?
I want exposure to different products and pricing so I can make an educated decision.
In my opinion as a contractor he should be willing to answer questions such as the ones you have asked. It gets annoying when someone asks about cost breakdowns for every little item, but questions about specific costs such as cabinetry and fixtures shouldnt be a problem. Most of the time I give a customer an allowance for fixtures and if they decide on a higher price item it is added to the bill.
That is exactly what I am looking for! Other than checking out his terminology in the proposal and his plumbing method, this is what is holding up the whole shabang. I don't need a price on faucets, wiring and concrete, just something I can base a decision on. This is why I hate to give out a budget amount.
As of now, I am frustrated with this whole process. Tempted to just have him put up the shell and I will subcontract the other stuff. I could not do that of course, but this whole project is stopped because of the price of cabinetry? How silly!
Acc,
Definately talk to your contractor first. However, if you asked for specific items BEFORE he drew up his quote, well, those items should have been part of the quote. I can't imagine changing windows on a job from Anderson wood to a lesser vinyl product without checking with a homeowner...especially if this was requested.
As far as your cabinets go, well geez he's gotta give you something to go by. Be clear and let him know that you are not trying to pick apart his estimate and hammer him down, only that you may wish to upgrade materials. Personally, at the design stage, I love upgrades. Nicer finished product for the homeowner, and more money for me....that's the honesty in it. It's win, win.
If he can't provide you with detail (that is can't and not won't) then there is a problem.
Also, he has given you a quote, right? Not a contract to sign. Hammer out this stuff now, and make sure the contract you sign in the end lists the specific materials you request and the price matches your discussions.
In the very least he should be able to say, "Well with this quote you have an allowance of $x.xx for your kitchen cabinets, and $y.yy for flooring. If you'd like to upgrade from here, I'll get back to you and know the increase in cost"
This shouldn't be a problem. You are not asking him to reveal his mark-up, profit or anything at this stage.
Now you can't expect him to re-estimate the job 10 times without having any guarantee that he is going to get any work out of it. I wouldn't anyway. But it sounds like you have entered into a design/build or what I call a "preconstruction contract". My preconstruction contract covers just this situation. It means that you have hired me to work with you to design the room, addition, porch, whatever it is you want, and I will be compensated for my time. As long as a preconstruction contract has been entered into, I'll design your house sixty times...I'm getting paid for it. It is a service which I am providing and you are paying for. It encourages homeowner to be decisive and decreases the amount of change orders down the line. Also my preconstruction contract ONLY has you hiring me to design and estimate your job. It doesn't guarantee that I am the contractor performing the work. This encourages me to be fair in estimating and gives you the security of choices. At the end of the day...you own the design once you have paid my invoice.
Hope this helped.
well stated.
I never met a tool I didn't like!
That is exactly the explanation I was looking for! It was really confusing when he wouldn't give me the price breakdowns on the major components, besides the structure. Everything has come to a dead stop because frankly, I didn't know what to do.
I laugh now, but at the time I asked him the allowance on the cabinets, he stated that whatever they buy them for is what they pass on to the consumer. Actually, I laughed then, in his face, for saying that. Not to be mean, but, if that's the case, he needs me to run his business. I finally explained to him that I was in the automobile business and that profit is not a dirty word to me.
All I want is choices. It would be so disappointing to have something installed and find out I could have had a different product, more to my liking, that cost a little bit more. At least, now I know that I need to spec out the job myself before requesting another quote from him.
My last question deals with buying a product and having it installed by the contractor whether he gets it for me or I purchase it on my own. Have heard horror stories of where the contractor installs a name brand floor and something goes wrong. The installer blames it on the product and the manufacturer blames it on the installation. I do believe I will have the floor done myself.
I think Diesel has a lot of excellent points. I am a contractor myself, but find myself now in the odd situation of finding a contractor for a project in our homeowners association. It ain't easy to find someone who is a good fit for the job, competent, and has the available time.
Based on what I read in all of the posts, I would seriously run away FAST from the guy you're dealing with. For several reasons: 1) he basically said that he doesn't mark-up materials, and you caught on to that. 2) he won't give you enough details in order to make a reasonable decision. My guess is that HE doesn't have the information, and chance are he won't be able to complete the project anywhere near the price he gave you, even if you don't change anything.
Case in point: one contractor I interviewed started out bidding this project at $71,000. I asked for breakdowns, like how much (roughly) was for the roof, siding, flooring, etc. Not to beat down his prices, but to see where the costs were so we could make decisions on what to do now and what not to do. After several conversations, and never getting what I thought was reasonable, his price came down to just under $50,000. Note: this happened without ANY change in scope or specs. By the way, he also quoted the job "per discussion on _____(Date).." This red flag alone made me wonder.
The dilemma in the working world, and especially with contractors, is that the good ones are always busy, and supply/demand allows them to make a higher rate (justified, IMHO) and the unscrupulous or inept ones are all too familiar.
Keep looking. the best recommendation will come from a friend or neighbor.
By the way, I often buy materials for customers, and often let them buy their own. But if they buy their own, I make it crystal clear and in writing that I am only responsible for the installation, not the product or shipping. I only had a problem once, where a guy bought the windows and I installed them. Everything was fine. A few months later, one window started sticking. (these are high-quality Marvin windows) so I went to check it out. I measured, checked for level, plumb, square, and everything was right on. Still sticking. Finally, I tried a little WD40 or silicone spray, and it freed right up. The problem ended up being that he was having major construction done on his house (someone else's job), during the humid summer, and the dust just built up enough over the months to make things not smooth. So he was pissed at me, thinking I should handle the situation. I told him the installation was perfect, and that if he had a problem to contact the window supplier. It ends up that he was under a lot or stress from the months of not having a kitchen and other parts of his house and was taking it out on me. Oh well, part of the fun of being in business. Just make sure EVERYTHING is in writing, and details do matter.
If you buy your own materials, make sure you get it in writing that they will be installed per manufacturers specifications, and get a copy of those specs from the mfg. Try the web site. I had a roofer try to pull one over on me last year by taking shortcuts. Good thing I checked.
Enough. Sorry such a long post.
Its not that I don't trust people, I just don't trust their memories.
buying a product and having it installed by the contractor Kinda depends on the product. Do you have a friend who makes custom chandeliers or something? Or do you think you can get a better deal on carpet? On my current remodel, the client selected and purchased all the ceramic tile, and I'm handling the installation. At the time we started the job, she knew she wanted tile but had no idea what type. Assuming that the installation cost would be somewhat independent of the tile, I included a cost for installation only. Good thing, too, cuz she picked some expensive stuff. If I had included that much in the bid for material, she would have freaked, but as it turned out, when she was at the designers studio she found tile she just had to have.
Do it right, or do it twice.
Listen to what diesel told you.......he's right on the money!
Eric
I've only read five posts in this thread and I already don't like your contractor. It sounds like you didn't give him a spec for a lot of things so he used allowances for them, but he won't tell you the number. If you go through on the job with this guy it's going to be murder and you're going to be back to this forum a thousand times trying to get things straightened out when a decent contractor would be able to explain all of the costs to you and how your choices are affecting the bottom line.
If you had given complete specs for everything (i.e. you had a designer draw and spec the whole job) then he would be on solid ground giving you a lump sum. Otherwise, IMHO, the pricing should be itemized so you can make informed choices.
Change in materials frequently = change in price of material (maybe in difficulty of installation as well) and that = change in risk (perhaps hours of labor also) for the contractor and that = change in price of completed project.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 11/28/2003 5:55:38 PM ET by GOLDHILLER
Carpeting/lighting fixtures etc. should all be considered using allowances........but the allowances should be reasonable.
Some guys low ball the allowance to make the bid more attractive to an unsuspecting home owner.
If there are no allowances in a custom home.....it ain't one. Get another builder
I agree. Get another builder. Who owns the plans and specs at this point? If you have paid a "design" fee, you should own them. Insist on a full set of originals and copies of everything, make it clear that it is the house you specified for yourself and you don't want it peddled elsewhere, and walk out.
Find a builder you can work with comfortably, who will clearly show you the level of quality, and pricing, for all the "allowance" items you need. One who can take you somewhere and show you the kind of work he or she does, what he considers standard, what she considers custom, what kind of finish products they use regularly and recommend highly.
If there are products you already have settled on, make sure they are included in the pricing, and clearly specified as to models. For example, don't just settle for Andersen as a window spec. Andersen has different products at higher and lower price points. The same is true for almost everything else. We can sell you Schlage doorknobs for $20, and Schlage knobs that look almost identical for $50. Get specific, and ask your builder to do the same, with product line and item number identification, within manufacturer names.
Specifying, pricing, and sourcing all the products for a new home is a lot of work, and it requires a lot of your time, plus the time of helpful and considerate people in product showrooms, building centers, and contractor stores.
It sounds like your present builder has one way, only, of doing things, and it is cheap. You need someone else.
just make sure everything in writing before your start the first nail and do not change order for anything.
The best employee you can have but you wouldn't want him as a neighbor " He the shifty type"
ac.. sounds like you linked up with a contractor who is out of his league..
he seems used to doing low-ball work and doesn't know how to service you..
where did the plans and specs come from.. who developed them... why are they not being bid as spec'd?
this job ain't going to work out... you two will be at loggerheads all the way thru... and in the end... you will not have what you could have had
but, hey, whadda i no ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I liked the way the contractor that built our last house did us -- we spec'd out more or less what we wanted. As it came time for specific decisions per materials, we'd say, hey we're thinking about hardwood in the foyer....contractor would come back with a number....say an extra $1000 -- over and beyond whatever he had figured (carpet in this case). I didn't care what his cost for carpet, padding, etc was...just that we could have the hardwood we wanted for $1000 extra.
This guy has ignored your specific requests.
His substitutes are low-ball items.
He refuses to give you a cabinet allowance. You know his cabinets are bound to be low-ball also, probably everything else too.
Ignore, substitute, refuse. Do these sound like positive signs?
Drop this guy, cut your losses now, find someone who is willing to work with you. If you stick with this guy you know you will regret it!
John Svenson, Builder, Remodeler, NE Ohio (Formerly posted as JRS)
Svenny---just to play "devils advocate"
In this case the prospective "customer seems to have a fairly involved project---but admidts that he refuses to give the prospective contractor a budget to work with-----he indicates a distrust of the contractor because the contractor won't divulge what the contractor has budgeted for certain items.
the customer admidts that he laughed in the contractors face because the contractor claims that he doesn't mark up the materials. Perhaps the contractor really DOESN'T mark up the materials----perhaps he uses some variety of the PROOF system where all profit and overhead is on labor---not materials.It's entirely possible that the contractor is running a reasonably organized and professional operation---but doesn't explain himself well.
the customer mentioned a connection with the auto industry-----perhaps he ---by training---thinks well and communicates well on his feet----he naturally wants to use those attributes to the customers advantage by dominating each and every encounter------but criticizes the contractor for possibly NOT having the same verbal skills.
how common is 2x10 vs.2x4 construction?
sooo----looking at the info supplied by the customer -----I think it is absolutely possible that the contractor is a little out of his league with this project.
but it is at least EQUALLY possible that the customer
1) thinks he knows more than he really does about construction
2) thinks he knows more about running the contractors business than the contractor does.
3)the customer HIMSELF has some communication problems
4)the customer is fairly verbally agressive and also pretty manipulative
I think it's pretty likely that there is WAY more to this story than we have really been told.
I have a question. Why does the "customer" continue to pursue a relationship with a contractor he clearly doesn't trust or communicate well with??????????
How many other contractors have managed to successfully extract themselves from involvement in this project?
something is clearly missing from this story.
stephen .. well put, you devilMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Shazlett,
You seem to have done alot of "reading between the lines" however, you missed that "he" is a "she". You do bring up some very good points however and may be correct. Still doesn't explain the contractor not including specific materials speced by the HO in his bid. Nor does it explain the contractor's refusal to disclose his allowances.
DP
dieselpig,
1) do me a favor and point out to me where in the above posts I was supposed to infer that the customer was a women. I went back through and re-read them---and STILL didn't see any indication that the customer was a woman.
2) how would the gender of the customer have any relevance?
3)BTW----I played devils advocate for a reason.------in virtually every situation where I have a problem---personal,professional--whatever----the problem is MY fault. with 20/20 hindsight I can always look back and see where I could have avoided or corrected or at least dramatically reduced the problem.
Perhaps you have noticed the same thing with other people-----someone will complain to you about a situation or a problem---and since you have a more detached perspective you can see that the "complainer" largely brought the situation upon themself?
Soooo, as a result I try to look at problems from a variety of perspectives to save myself from shooting myself in the foot.
all in all Dieselpig,----this customer gives me a real bad vibe, REAL bad. I seriously think I would be unable to work with him/her. That doesn't make either of us bad people---just not a good fit.I am still wondering why the customer is purtsuing a relationship with someone so incompatible?----surely if the customer discussed the project with several candidates one would emerge as a better fit?
Shazlett, feel better now? Look, I wasn't trying to belittle you. It's just that the "devil's advocate" thing is a load of crap to me. You can do that in any situation and question anything, even what is trusted to be reality.
So given that, why bother replying if you're going to take that stance? All we can do from here, from however many miles away from AcCable we happen to be, is take what is said at face value and offer the best advice possible.
I see someone who is "new to the game" who posted her experience with a contractor and wanted to know if this was the norm. Given what she offered for information, I told her ( to be short) no. It isn't the norm and then I explained what the norm is.
Incidently, you are correct, it was in another of her posts that I found that "he" is a "she". Regardless, my point was that you seem to have this remarkable sixth sense about this topic, yet you missed this and repeatedly refered to AcCable as "he".
But hey, your gut tells you one thing and my gut tells me something different. If you thing AcCable is just a P in the A, why didn't you address your remarks to her instead of the rest of the gang? At least then you would have been offering something for her to look at, your advice if you will. Maybe she is the problem. But to me, placing a bid on a job and ignoring/changing items specified by her is the contractor's F-up, not hers. Pretty cut and dry.
Did the sun come up today? Yes. Well, let me play the devil's advocate here and say that the sun didn't actually come up. Instead, maybe the Earth went down today. Why not, it's possible right? It's just all gobbly-gook and doesn't really deal with the question at hand. That was my point.
uhhhh---dieselpig?---ya might want to ratchet back on your caffeine consumption there dude!
Or are we only allowed to present one viewpoint here?---Do we all have to agree?---nah,I don't think so.
BTW--- didn't I essentially point out ( twice I think) that "she" might want to look at other contractors?----what's the problem?
good luck with your day----I am gonna spend mine running flights of stairs at the "Y" and sitting in the saunna.
stephen
SHAZLETT, I'm inclined to side with you on your observations. Has everyone missed the other threads from AcCable? Seems like there is a problem, sense of mistrust in each thread. Could every contractor/roofer, etc be jerking this customer around? The jobs I handle are a lot smaller in scope than many discussed here, including this one, but I get a cold fuzzy on whether I would want to be involved as a contractor or sub. I could be wrong, it's tough to tell over the Net, and my apologies to AcCable if it's just good old fashion miscommunication of the situation.
DocA shortcut is the longest distance between two points.
What's up Doc? :)
Not to be argumentative, but in her previous posts regarding her roofer she felt that she had got an exceptional deal from the roofer and didn't seem to have any complaints. Also not totally defending her either, but I don't see anything circumspect in her posts. I just see a single Mom who has doesn't really have alot of extra money to waste on miscommunication or, worse, scam artists. None of us can argue the fact that they are out there. She just seems, to me, to be trying to learn "the system".
AcCable seems to have some legitimate gripes with her contractor. He is failing to fulfill basic requirements and responsibilites.....and this is just in the design/ bidding phase. To me, she just seems to be doing the right thing and that is researching what it is she is getting into. I wish more of my clueless type customers would do this. It would save alot of hard feelings when change order time comes along....."Why should I pay more for this imported Italian tile my cousin's sister's husband picked out? Tile is tile right?"
No doubt there are many conniving, shrewd, skeptical homeowners out there looking to get a whole lot of product for the shortest amount of cash possible, but I don't see this as one of those situations. It's easy to get defensive with these types, but not every homeowner who wants to know more about the products, systems and CONTRACTORS going into their homes is looking to low-ball us.
I don't know jack-diddly about my new trucks. When I take it to my mechanic, I ask alot of questions about what's going on with it, what was actually done to it etc. Why? BECAUSE ITS MY TRUCK! I make the payments on it, I gotta drive it, I'd like to know as much as possible about it. Can't ever remember asking the mechanic to charge me less after he explained the bill to me. If he refused to explain any charges on the bill, I'd find another mechanic quick. Wouldn't you?
Just my opinion though, and I've been wrong before! When was that.....1982 or 83.......
I'm glad you understand where I am coming from Dieselpig. You have hit the nail on the head. I probably could make some contractors run, as someone suggested, but if I can't get answers to my questions, than I cannot work with them either.
The situation is as you have said. I am trying to improve my home and it needs a lot. With only a certain amount of money to work with, I need to be able to a) do the most important and b) do the most I can within my budget.
I have to chuckle...I have been really excited about this kitchen and bath remodel, hoping it will greatly improve the value of the house. But today I noticed another hump in the floor. I don't know if it was always there and I never noticed it or if it's new but I may be spending my whole budget straightening out floors and running new supports or whatever and never get a new kitchen or bath. Wouldn't that be a kicker!
Thank you for your understanding.
AcCable,
So there is no misunderstanding:
A shortcut is the longest distance between two points.
DP, I'm definitely not trying to be argumentative either. Just echoing what seemed like some good observations. One thing is for sure - as a guy who's been on his own for only a year (after only making sawdust part-time for the last several years) I come here more to learn from ya'll than to answer questions. You'll notice in my post:
I could be wrong, it's tough to tell over the Net, and my apologies to AcCable if it's just good old fashion miscommunication of the situation.
Remember, it is easy to miss the non-verbal communication we all love about speaking in person. :
From: dieselpig Nov-25 9:12 pm To: AcCable (22 of 43) 37046.22 in reply to 37046.20 Don't hesitate to "waste their time" or you will waste your money.
What a rotten attitude. I think (or hope) I know what you meant when you said that, but you still won't make many friends around here coming off like that. When you refer to the majority of people here (trade professionals) in the third person and imply that our time is meaningless.....well you've just insulted just about everyone here who could be a potential asset to you and your home.
That said, went back over AcCables posts. Oops, remembered the roofing thread wrong. Sorry. Still, seems like a general mistrust of what the local folks are telling her (maybe that's good, though). And maybe that's the problem on the contractor's end: mistrust of the customer - the type of guy who's afraid the customer might really learn about methods/quality he can't live up to. IMHO, an informed customer is great, but there has to be a level of trust established both ways. If it's not there, it's not always one or the other's fault. Tough finding that out when you're already into the job.
DocA shortcut is the longest distance between two points.
Your posts have all been points well taken. For those of you who have suggested I ditch the contractor; the reasons I haven't are a) not understanding the process-I don't want to blame him for my ignorance in how to handle a project this size. Although, small to most of you, pretty damn big to me. b) I have invested a design fee and would like to at least get that design done. If I still do not feel comfortable having the actual work handled by this person, I will have the design ready for the next person. c) This person is not my original choice-was also working with another remodeler whom I liked very much and had done a neighbor's remodel. We were ready to start nailing down all the specs and he passed away. d)I'm not sure that the other remodeling companies in this area (Northeast Ohio) would be any different.
To those of you who suggest that I may be at fault - there is that possibility you are right. I did give the contractor my budget and asked numerous times if it was reasonable for what I wanted done. I believe he priced the job using materials that would accomplish what I wanted in my budget range. Certainly no complaints with that. Of course, the proposal was more than my budget and the decision to change the scope of the project must be made.
The contractor's communication skills are not as open as I like, i.e. not disclosing the allowances, explaining plumbing procedures, but this may because he is still trying to understand what my goals are and what is most important to me. I tend to question and compare the pros and cons on every item such as what is the more beneficial, 2x4 or 2x6 construction.
Someone stated that the customer thinks they know more about construction than the contractor. Now if that was the case, I would subcontract this myself. I know my knowledge is limited that is why I am hiring a contractor and posting on these boards to get more info, but I am not going to enter into an agreement when I do not understand all the items.
It may be too early in the process yet to actually know if there is a problem with this contractor. I just did not know what was the proper procedure. For now, I am rewriting his bid to include the specs that I do know of to help him get a better idea of what I am after. I do not mean to be critical and know the fact that I am anal will drive someone crazy but I only have so much money I can spend and want to do it wisely.
You have all been really helpful. Yes Goldhiller, we were on another forum, but for the life of me, when I wanted to refer to it, I couldn't find it.
Well, the additional information you provided concerning the history of the proposed project is definitely helpful in gaining a more comprehensive understanding of things, but I'm still not sure it can anymore lead to appropriate advice than would responses to a question of "what do clients expect?" Depends on the contractor and the client.
I don't think I'm about to say anything that you don't already know, but rather it's intended as a reminder that may lead to some productive communication or to the end of this "blind date" which doesn't seem to be truly working out for either of you yet.
It would seem that the fundamentals of an enjoyable business, let alone human-to-human, relationship are nowhere to be seen. Distrust is not a suitable foundation for your project. It appears that both parties are eyeing one another suspiciously with a predator and prey mentality or as if engaged in a high stakes poker game. This, as you already know, may be the case for any number of reasons, but almost certainly because of predispositions, expectations and/or fears that you both carry.
Maybe you have knowledge of some less than admirable tactics used while negotiating car deals and therefore you expect that sort of gaming from everyone in the business world. Maybe you have personal experience with or personal knowledge of nightmares with contractors AND have good reason to be suspicious of this particular contractor. Maybe your contractor has come to the table bearing similar negative experiences with clients and although he has the best of intentions of getting you the best he can for the figure involved, he's prone to protecting himself from a complaint-prone "predator" style of client and lacks in communication skills to boot. Maybe you feel vulnerable because of your lack of experience in these types of construction endeavors and the choices of method and material. Maybe you also feel extra vulnerable because you're a single female and perceive yourself as a lamb in the lion's den. Lots of maybes not mentioned here. Some may be well founded and understandable, others not. But it does seem apparent that you're not comfortable with things, as they exist.
I personally won't work for people unless I know they're at least 85% comfortable with me from the very first get-go and vice versa. I'm not that desperate for business and life's too short for either of us to spend it that way whether the suspicions are totally based on misunderstandings or not. If the chemistry isn't working for us at the moment…it isn't working. And if so, I'd be better off coupling with someone else and so would they because we just aren't a viable match right now. Maybe that's the case here. Can't say from this distance and with no access to either of the involved parties actual thought-streams.
But I do hope something better begins to happen for you soon regarding this project and the relationships that evolve.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Ah, Goldhiller, you must have been a psychologist at some point. Or maybe you need to be one in your line of work. :) Your possible interpretaions of what has happened so far are remarkable. A scenario you did not mention is the fact that I may be just getting cold feet. The thought of spending close to $75,000 in one place is frightening and the thought of the unexpected problems is downright terrifying. So, to be sure it is not me that is at fault in this relationship, I will work on the project specs as thoroughly as possible and approach this person again. Hopefully, it will save him a lot of time and I will be comfortable knowing I did as much research and understand as much as a lay person can about the construction procedure.
Svenny - oh, to be a 12 year old boy pulling an old geezer's chain! What fun! But alas, that is not the case. I, myself, am an old geezer trying not to have the chain pulled on me.
ac, hope you didn't think I was being serious about that. I was just being a little absurd to help illustrate that I was taking you at your word.
Remember one thing-you are in the courting stage with this contractor. This is when he is supposed to be wooing you. If he is being unresponsive to your questions and desires now, with only a relatively small amount of money on the line, watch out for what may happen when he has $40,000 of your money tied up.
From what you have stated, I would be very wary of this guy.John Svenson, Builder, Remodeler, NE Ohio (Formerly posted as JRS)
Happy Thanksgiving.
Just read this entire thread and have one piece of advice. Find another contractor.
I don't even see where you've gotten your moneys worth on the design process you've already paid for, let alone the quote on the design.
He was told what your budget was and STILL gave a quote that exceeded that budget. Red flag.
He was told to spec Anderson windows and didn't. Red Flag.
During the design process he should have been all over that project but didn't find the floor "hump" that you found later. Not very observant?
Refused, outright, to breakout significant, potentially expensive subsections of the job. Red Flag.
No one can give an accurate quote without the specs being upfront. If you had no clearcut specs it would be the designers job to pull them out of you or bring forth some options from which you could choose.
For your cabinet selection the least he should have done would be to bring you a copy of the manufacturers published brochures (in color and freely available) with the standard and upgrade options listed, make recommendations and point out the differences that would change prices and have you choose. Same with everything else.
Then and only then would he have an honest design from which anyone, including himself, could bring forth a quote to do the job. That, in my opinion, is what you have already paid him for (the design) and he did not deliver. Therefore, since he did not deliver on the design, he has no way of delivering on the construction quote.
AC,
Another day and another dawning says that from a purely gut level, I've gotta agree with Ralph and everyone else here who is suspicious of this contractor. And that hasn't really changed since I initially cautioned you on the other forum that if this fella couldn't or wouldn't bring forth explanations, you should ditch him and look again.
It may be that there are other factors involved here that we can't perceive on the web, but at the root of it, it doesn't smell right to me yet, either.
Let me ask this…..have you acquired references from this guy and checked them out? (Watch out for the social friends and relatives references. Know whom you're talking to and their involvement with the contractor.) I think I suggested that you not only get the references, but that you go see first-hand what his work looks like. (You also need to make certain that if you do this that you're actually looking at his work and not someone else's) I've not seen any mention from you that you've done any of this. ????
How long has this individual been in the business? The answer to that may explain the strange circumstances regarding his unwillingness or inability to produce figures for the various aspects of this job, even with his spec list; he doesn't know and is simply tossing out one major very crude guess on the whole shebang.
A couple of other pertinent questions may be……
1- How long has he been in business in your area?
2- Has the name of his business changed recently? Have checked with the BBB?
3- How's his credit standing with the suppliers where he's going to be getting your materials? Will he reveal where the materials are going to be acquired? Maybe he's quoting different windows, for example, because the Andersen distributor won't do business with him.
I'd advise you check this guy out very thoroughly before you go one more step down the path with him. And I'd advise having a competent attorney check out any potential contract with him. Failure to do this may lead to more serious consequences than you anticipate.
Judging from all your posts, it sounds like you not only have many questions in your head, but you have butterflies in your stomach about this whole deal. Maybe you should listen to that gut feeling. Don't abandon the whole project, just find a contractor you trust and feel comfortable with. There's gotta be one out there in your area with whom you can dance without getting your toes stepped on all the time.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
After reading your posts, I now have a serious case of the heebie jeebies. I realize now that I have a lot of work to do. The first thing being to spec out this project in detail. I will include every make, model and paint color. I was hoping to do this through the design service he offered. A designer I'm not, that is why I paid the fee. You are right, Ralph, I don't feel I got my money's worth and don't know if I will. The second thing is to shop my project around to more contractors. Of course, a better price is not what I am looking for but someone who is more forth coming with information. I don't like to feel that if I do not know enough to ask the correct questions, than a potential problem will not be mentioned. I do believe there is something going on with the structural support in this house and would think a contractor would point it out as something that needs to be addressed.
What frightens me is that this company has been around for quite some time and is a member of NARI. If this is how the supposedly "professional remodelers" are, how are the others? The contractor did tell me to visit a couple of job sites which I did not have time to do: would rather see something that has been finished for awhile anyway. I also have not checked their credit or the BBB yet either. Just didn't feel that we were that close to signing a contract. I also know to get a list of the subcontractors that will be working on the sight.
I thought I had done a considerable amount of planning on my project in relation to the floor plan but see that much more is needed. Heeding your advice I will take a couple of steps back and not rush into this. For some reason, I wanted to keep moving forward even though something didn't seem quite right - probably the excitement - but you guys are bringing me back to earth. And I thank you.
Being a member of NARI may be a start, but it in no way guarantees you won't get bad contractor. Same goes for HBA. I have been a member of both, but haven't been a member of either since 1990. I could tell some real horror stories.
Right now there are two former highly respected HBA members going belly up in my area, who have left a long list of customers holding the bag for thousands and thousands of dollars. One is a former president of the local HBA chapter, Summit County, to be specific.
Ask around. Try to find a friend or collegue who has had similar work done, and had a good experience. Maybe you need a designer who is not a contractor. What part of Ohio are you from? E-mail me and I could maybe hook you up with a designer who will actually listen to your needs and desires and work them into your project.John Svenson, Builder, Remodeler, NE Ohio (Formerly posted as JRS)
Hey Stephen, you "devil" you.
Regardless of how one would read between the lines as to what's going on(there's always more to the story) I still stand by what I said.
When I bid a job, I specify what the customer asked for. That's very straight forward. If I question what they want, that's done up front. If someone asked you for a bid on a slate roof, would you just give them a bid for asphalt, without discussing it with them? Of course not. I would never waste my time bidding something the customer doesn't want.
As for allowances, they are part and parcel of building and remodeling, especially when it comes to cabinets and floor coverings. Nothing strange about asking for that.
If ac is not a flake, and things happened as she said, I stand by my advice. If ac is a flake, and something else is going on that she is witholding from us, why bother even speculating on what it is? After all "she" might be a 12 year old boy with too much time on his hands, mixing it up with a bunch of old farts, having a laugh at our expence.
I'm just taking the question at face value.
John Svenson, Builder, Remodeler, NE Ohio (Formerly posted as JRS)
AC,
I think it finally dawned on me why your post and situation sounded so familiar. If I'm not mistaken, we had an exchange of notions about this on another forum. And if that's true, then I remember advising you at that time to either sit down and get answers and explanations from this guy concerning why he didn't bid what you specified and that if he couldn't/wouldn't do that, then you should dump him for someone trustworthy that you could work with. From the sounds of it, you should have dumped him and still should.
However, it would seem that you're still caught up with this fella for some reason. Maybe no one else is available at the moment and you're just desperate enough to get your project completed that you're willing to wrestle with him in attempt to win.
But this time, I'm seeing some different questions on the whole matter such as …..
"Do I have to have everything picked out before he gives a quote?" and " At this point, now that I have an idea, do I home in on all the finishing touches and then he rebids based on that?
The answer I posted on this thread concerning those questions stands. And that answer is the implied, "yes". I'm not suggesting that you should proceed one inch farther with this particular contractor by any means at all, but rather what you should expect from any contractor if you upgrade materials, such as kitchen cabinets. The contractor's assumed risk is elevated and should be reflected accordingly. And therefore it won't elevate by just the increase in the price he pays for the materials……… if you will expect or demand that he assumes the elevated risk. For example, a contractor might give you a price of $300 to provide and hang a $200 cabinet, but you can't expect him to provide and hang an identically sized $400 cabinet for $500. Unless perhaps, if you agree to relieve him in writing of all responsibility for unintentional accidents or blunders with those higher priced materials.
And if you decide to purchase the materials yourself in yet another attempt to get a firm handle on things, are you willing to accept the associated responsibilities? If a cabinet, for example, should arrive damaged or wanting, you will either have to return it yourself and see to it that a replacement is promptly forthcoming or be willingly to pay the contractor to do that for you. Will you be able to do this on a timely basis or will it have to wait for the next weekend when you have available time? Will the cabinet distributor respond with as much gusto for you as they would for the contractor? Depends. The contractor may get a 4-day turn-around on replacement while you might suffer a two-week turn-around. That sort of thing happens around here all the time. Meanwhile, as you await arrival of a new cabinet, the progress of the kitchen project could well grind to a complete halt.
I still think you should part company with this particular contractor and find someone whose ears work well enough that he hears you and is trustworthy. If you can find one, you won't be losing sleep with frayed nerves, doing hand to hand combat trying to get what you want, wondering whether he will stand behind his work and be willing to correct problems at his cost for a reasonable period of time after completion and getting all of this for a price that is fair to both you and the contractor.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 11/29/2003 3:43:35 PM ET by GOLDHILLER
Edited 11/29/2003 3:45:18 PM ET by GOLDHILLER