What do you charge for Knockdown finish
I’ve never done a knockdown finish before on Drywall. The HO wants me to price it for him. What is the going rate in your area to do this type of finish? I assume it’s a SF measurement.
I’ve never done a knockdown finish before on Drywall. The HO wants me to price it for him. What is the going rate in your area to do this type of finish? I assume it’s a SF measurement.
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Replies
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Last time I paid for it, about a year ago, it cost me $250 for the house. Three bedrooms, living room and hall. Maybe 700+ sf. Included draping plastic on the walls and cleaning up the overspray afterwards. Didn't need to protect the floors since I had left the old carpet there to catch the remodel debris.
You can rent the machine for about $75 per day from HD and do it yourself. Learning curve is short. Mistakes can be scraped and instantly redone.
I use my regular 10" knife but for a couple of bucks you can get the wide flexible plastic knife on a stick which would make the job so much easier. You wouldn't have to climb a ladder to knock it down.
Well what exactly is the knockdown method? I heard like 2 or 3 methods this morning from someone else I spoke with and I am a tad confused. You mentioned a machine. The guy I talked to this morning referred to putting a thick coat all over the DW, then dabbing it and then scraping it.If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
Here in my area of Ore. a "Knockdown " is a 2 step process
1) A spray applied texture (sometimes called "splatter finish" , "orange peel finish " or "sprayed texture" (Applied using either a hopper gun or larger machine used just to apply this finish).
2) A broad knife or trowel is raked or dragged across the still wet spray and used to flatten the surface of the droplets on the wall or ceiling surface. Forgot to mention that this finish is used with drywall surfaces.
Edited 1/23/2007 4:38 pm ET by dovetail97128
If you don't know how to do it (hell- you don't even know how you're "supposed" to do it, yet alone have any proficiency in doing it), I've got two questions:
1. Why do you think getting pricing from people who actually do the work would have any bearing on what you should charge for the work? If I'm a drywall contractor who does texturing as part of my daily activities, I'm going to be able to do it a lot faster (and likely better) that you can, so my pricing will be too low for the amount of time you're have to expend it attempting to do it.
2. Why would you offer to do something like this on a client's home if you have no idea how to do it? What if you screw it up? Are you prepared to pay a qualified sub in if you make a mess of the wall?
I just get a chuckle sometimes from the information people look for around here, and also from the work homeowners are willing to hire contractors to do when they haven't a clue how to do it.
Bob
Knockdown isn't brain surgery. He can practice on some large scraps and get the hang of it. Everybody who does anything did it for the first time once.
-- J.S.
I realize it's not brain surgery, but trying to match an existing texture isn't exactly something that you practice once for and get it right. My point is that he's not even sure what the "process" is, so it's not even a case of "OK, I've seen this before, I'll give it a try", and even if it was, any pricing from here would be far from useful.
And yes, of course there'sa first time for everything- I'm just not sure I'd want your first time to be on my house- know what I mean?
Bob
That reply sounded like something from the jlc forum. The people here, will help anyone, not just contractors..or put down someone trying to learn. I am still learning , just like everyone on this forum. Why not offer advice?
northeastvt
There is a big difference between learning for yourself and learning on anothers nickel. At least when you don't know how to do it, how it is done, how much to charge, how much material to use, what tools to use, etc. That is the point I believe Bob is making.........and in my opinion........he's right! DanT
DanT,
I would assume he would take the information, learn ,experiment, and come up with a price. And know what to charge next time. I just had some done, no extra charge. A little more labor to do but he didn't need to be so fussy on the sanding ,etc. 35cents per sq ft. across the board.
northeastvt
So...... you are telling everyone that you will not try a new technique. It sounds like he knows how to finish drywall?? He is looking for information and advise. The customer must have some trust in his abilities if they asked the question.
I do agree that the OP experiment elsewhere before he attempts on a customers home.
I don't believe the OP said anything about trying to match an existing texture. You're right about texture matching, it's difficult enough that the right thing to do is fuggedaboutit and do the whole room, or at least the whole wall.
If he practices first on his own time and materials, I personally wouldn't object to being the first paying customer for his knockdown work.
-- J.S.
For those who are concerned if I would practice first or not...... of course. I have a rule that so far I think pays off. The rule is, I typically won't do something on someone elses house until I've done it on my own house. I happen to need to finish some DW in my house and am 100% fine with doing it as knockdown now that the subject came up for a job we're bidding. So I should have plenty of practice I'd think. If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
it's really pretty simple,my problem is i go in and speckle it,p.u. the big putty knife to knock down with and go what the heck it looks fine just like that!! anyway one thing a friend does that hasn't been mentioned here is he wipes the long way of the room,then comes back and wipes to a 90 degree lightly.his knockdown looks exceptional,i don't know if thats the secret or what. also as soon as he's done,cleans his equip. up,loads a airless with cheap white ceiling paint and gives it 2 coats. larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
Hi Willy,
Eveyone is touting how easy this finish is to work with, well I hope you have great success with it, but before you do try it, here's my (funny) horror story:
I was impressed with some knockdown finishes I saw firsthand at other jobsites, and when the opportunity came along for me to rebuild (re-frame) a 20 foot long interior basement wall for a customer, I decided to try it for myself.
I was told beforehand that its best to protect evrything with dropcloths and I also used kraft paper to mask off adjoining ceilings and some wood paneled walls that I didn't want to dirty-up. All I can say is...good thing I did...cause this stuff can cause one heck of a mess!
I bought me a knockdown knife sometime back, as well as a cheap paint gun/hopper rig. My helper was a guy who had some prior experience spraying knockdowns. I had him shoot some samples on large drywall scraps and then I proceeded to knock it down.
Those scrap samples turned out beautifully.....but it all went downhill from there FAST!
My cheap paint gun rig ( did I mention cheap?) just didn't perform very well. The mix we used seemed a bit stiff but my helper swore that that mix consistency was the same set-up he always used in his paint gun...trouble was, we were using my paint gun....anyway, the orifice was too small or something, cause the dang thing wasn't putting out much spray. We finally added more water and thinned the mix down a bit, but still had not much better luck.
It got to the point that you physically had to shake the paint gun/hopper while depressing the trigger to get anything to spray out. All that shaking and such caused more joint compound to splatter onto the floor than it did on the walls!
When we finally got some on the walls to knock down, I very gently pulled the knockdown knife from the ceiling toward the floor....but the handle was too long and so I couldn't pull the knife all the way in one easy stroke...instead I had to go as far down the wall as possible, and then pull from the bottom up to complete the knockdown. Heck my samples looked terrific...but the actual wall looked like shid!
Sooo, after scraping the goo off the wall...where it fell on the floor of course (thank God for those tarps I laid down) we started over again, and this time I pulled the knife horizontally across the wall...which gave me much better results.
At the end of the day ( a very long, frustrating day) we managed to salvage the wall and make it look pretty good.....my helper blamed my paint gun; which definately was a PIA...but dealing with all the mess to clean up I'm not quite sold on the whole deal.
I concluded that I would rather hand trowel a sand finish coat than opt for the "easy" knockdown finish...there was nothing EASY about it!
Will I try this finish again?....yes, but not until I get a better paint gun rig set-up.
What did I learn from this experience? Use plenty of drop cloths!
Moral of the story?......."Shid happens." and also... "It aint always as easy as it seems."
Hope you have better luck at it.
Davo
Seems unless one were doing a large area like a whole house it wouldn't be worth all the hassle.
I've taken to a thin application of mud troweled on by hand, puckered with a wood float and lightly dragged with the straight edge. After drying a quick run over with a sanding pad for any errant globs.
Fast and done. Easy clean up.
small enough area I buy rattle cans of texture and get to it.
Rez, thanks for the tip, I'll try that sometime. I'd much rather hand trowel than spray! Of course, I'm gonna keep at it till I'm good at it....after I buy me a better paint gun/hopper set-up.
Davo
Big Boxes have Hopper guns for about $70.
Yeah, my gun was a cheap one...a Chicago tool mail order for like $35. You get what you pay for...that's for sure!
Davo
Davo,
If you are serious about getting into texturing there are spray guns available now that sell for the $700-1200 range. Much better than a hopper gun and they will also handle primer as well. They look like an airless paint pump.
Not as good as the trailer mounted whole house models but much cheaper and portable.
Its amazing to read comments on this subject which dont have a clue and they still comment on it .
Its not a hard process like working on computers but the trade needs lots of brotherhood training .
Wipe down texture ; You have to know how to mix it with what pressure and what tip. Its a real skill to keep the same pattern. You must know when to drag it down or it will be ruined .
Ive seen plenty of jobs where people were learning and left it and it looks like it .
On one room; Everything has to be masked off and covered . So yea Rez , sometimes its just not worth it . Which brings up another thought . If you spray a wipe down I hope you really wanted it because it stays there .
DW loves the stuff and IM sick of it . Just preference . I prefer slick as in slick.
Tim
Edited 1/26/2007 7:24 am by Mooney
Edited 1/26/2007 7:27 am by Mooney
texture can be knocked down if dry, just let dry completely and sand offf large bumps I charge a $100 a sheet for drywall repair 8'. goes down if only texture with no finish. Anything less than a full room, may be higher
Edited 1/26/2007 7:41 am ET by catfish
Just when I think you have died you show up. You dont post enough . Where have you been?
Ladies and gentlemen , Catfish has 53 posts since 2003. Piffin gets that in one night on average <G> Just kiddin.
Youre gonna have to come out here more .
Tim
Catfish are nocturnal, solitary creatures, rarely seen above the surface, preferring to haunt the depths._______________________________________________________________
Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
just trying to learn what I can. Any questions are usually answered on done the line. Plus I can't type that good.
well dont be so scarus
Ya, one can tell you've seen enough drywall in yer day to be sick of it. That's why you always get a bug up yer nose everytime someone says anything about texturing. ROAR!
One time I was renoing an apt where a previous renter had decided to texture a room. At the time I had never seen anything like it before.
Looks as if they had put as much compound on a trowel as possible and then applied with a single swipe and that was it.
At some places the tip of the compound mountains were half an inch away from the wallboard.
Since that time I have had chance to see similar occurrences in gradeB bars where I'm thinking the bar owners didn't want to mess with fistholes in drywall and just kept globbing compound over the hole till it stuck and then tried to make the rest of the wall look the same.
You better jump a plane for somewhere distant and sandy and take a long weekend.- Jt8 1-10-07
I feel like a bunny in a hillbilly meadow at noon..........jjwalters
Looks as if they had put as much compound on a trowel as possible and then applied with a single swipe and that was it.
Did a French restaurant with a texture like that. The owner loved it.
Since that time I have had chance to see similar occurrences in gradeB bars where I'm thinking the bar owners didn't want to mess with fistholes in drywall and just kept globbing compound over the hole till it stuck and then tried to make the rest of the wall look the same.
Once rocked a gay bar and the owner had us put 4 layers of rock on the toilet common walls, the customers hated it. Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
Just don't tell Tim that or he'll kick yer azz:o)
be oh man am I gonna get it now
You better jump a plane for somewhere distant and sandy and take a long weekend.- Jt8 1-10-07
I feel like a bunny in a hillbilly meadow at noon..........jjwalters
Better known as a Mexican trowel finish.
Its a real live hand finish wih a curved trowel and hawk.
Its best known in real live Mex resturants. .
BTW, you can buy silica sand and mix in mud which produces a slip trowel finish suitable for that one room gig. Is similar to wipe down with out the mess. Takes some playing with it because it happens at the correct angle. Is fun to do if you have time .What they need is a rubber roller or leather with the blown wipe down foot print in it. That way you could roll some mud on the wall even and hen back roll wih the imprinted roller to make it look like wipe down . The best purpose it could serve is for patches .
Tim
Given a choice between the two I'd have to opt for slick as snot on a doorknob too.
You better jump a plane for somewhere distant and sandy and take a long weekend.- Jt8 1-10-07
I feel like a bunny in a hillbilly meadow at noon..........jjwalters
Don't mind Bob, he always sounds like that.
Don't mind rez, he always says that
Barry E-Remodeler
ROAR!
be now that was funny
Bob, I do lots of DW finishing. I've never been asked to do knockdown before. I don't know everything there is to know or I'd be God. This is the first time I been asked and unlike some people who would walk away from it I see it as an opportunity to add a new skill to my DW finishing skills and to add further service to my customers. I am not a fly by nighter, I got in this biz due to fly by nighters who don't do a quality job to begin with. I am succeeding in biz for that reason. My work is sharp, good, and better than most yahoos out there. Being smart enough to take advantage of an opportunity to further enhance my skills is not a sign of weakness but strength if you don't mind my saying. I wouldn't take it on if I wasn't prepared to fix it if I screw it up. I screwed up lots of work before, and I fixed it, even if it took me 4x I fixed it and guess what, I learned it and it became a skilll I now use on the job. Do you think you could maybe have enough foresight to consider the good in people than the bad?If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
I did have to pay for the extra mud & plastic to cover windows ect. Others have given a good description on how to do it. Any overspray needs to be scraped off asap. On a large ceiling he stops at the half way point, scrapes off walls, and then continues. It's not to pretty until it's painted, especially over the green board:{.
Northeastvt
I forgot to add to my description of "Knockdown " that out here the applier uses a mud specifically designed for this job. (Spray Texture )
It comes in dry bag form and is mixed at the site. Consistency in mixing is important.
All the hopper guns and machines have a range of orifices sizes so you can reduce or enlarge the size of the droplets .
Takes a pretty good sizes compressor to run a hopper gun if you are doing a very large area. Steady air pressure thru the gun is a key to keeping the spray consistent, keeping the same distance off the wall and ceiling and an "even hand" when spraying are also important. Very similiar to spray painting in that regards.
Practice , practice, practice.
Guys here use the back walls of closets for test areas, spray , check things out, if you don't like what you see then wipe it off right away.
Oh yeah , and be carful walking backwards when using a hopper gun, one small trip will have you wearing the mud, very messy and unpleasant!! trust me on this, you do not have to repeat the experiment. (Though everybody I know who has used a hopper gun has ! ;-)
Edited 1/24/2007 12:11 pm ET by dovetail97128
HEHEHEHE, just got a whole house paint job from someone that will not be involved at all in the sale of their house, guess what I found, a horrendously ugly, but small, utility room off of the garage. Guys, I think I have found my first victim!Nobody is as good as they seem, nobody is as bad as they seem either.
Uh..... what in this world are you talking about?If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
Doing a knockdown in that old utility room.Nobody is as good as they seem, nobody is as bad as they seem either.
I've seen the texture both flattened with a knife, and the tops knocked off after it drys with sand paper. They have two distinct looks. Both can cover up a lot of weeble wobble in the wall.
Watched a guy once who would cut belt sander belts for the big stationary sanders, and staple them to a long flat board, and use it kind of like bull float. He could make anything look straight with it.
Almost forgot to answer your question. I'd charge the cost of materials. I wouldn't feel comfortable asking someone to pay ofr my time to learn a new skill.
Edited 1/25/2007 10:18 am ET by Jigs-n-fixtures
have you ever done a detail you've never done before? Did and got paid, same here.
Back when I was a cub people paid for my learning curve. But then I wasn't making a full wage, to compensate whoever was paying the bill for my inexperience and the resulting slower speed and waste of materials.
If your working piece work and buying your own materials. so long as you do quality work, regardless of how much effort and material it takes you to complete the task, it is probably fair to charge a going rate for the work. You do this knowing you are going to take it in the shorts until you learn how to do it right.
I left the trades and became an engineer in 92. I learn what I need to do new things on my time, and at my expense. I've paid other engineers for their time in training me on new areas I'm not familiar with, and lost money on that portion of the agreement.
<em>Being smart enough to take advantage of an opportunity to further enhance my skills is not a sign of weakness but strength if you don't mind my saying. I wouldn't take it on if I wasn't prepared to fix it if I screw it up. I screwed up lots of work before, and I fixed it, even if it took me 4x I fixed it and guess what, I learned it and it became a skilll I now use on the job.</em>I couldn't agree more. There is nothing wrong with wanting to learn a new skill, as long as that individual is willing to take the lumps along with it -- that the first few times may mean losing some money to get over that learning curve. Oftentimes a fear of failure can hamper one's willingness to work toward improvement.
Ok, all this being said, the knockdown is usually done on new construction and the cost is very little, it saves a sanding step and covers some imperfections. For a small job, get a texture gun, available at most stores that sell tools, hook it to an aircompressor and it is so easy. Thin down joint compound to the consistency of heavy paint (think flow through the gun) and simply and quickly, spray the wall. Wait until it dries or sets up a bit and lightly pull a straightedge over it. A good friend who feeds me lots of less than whole house work has over a dozen crews either hanging or finishing for him and he is trying to get knockdown started here. I have not seen it or even heard about it in my whole area, although knockdown was in every single new house I saw in a neighboring state. As for charges, I have been trying to find a customer that will let me do it, even for free on a small area, all I have done is experiment on large drywall scraps--so much for me being an expert--huh. Seriously, just doing it for a customer, I would charge for my time, this is not new sub work, treat it like a repair job.