What do you say to a Roofing Company….
The pallets of GAF/ELK Armor Shield II arrived Friday morning. The invoice shows the actual delivery count. This upstanding roofing company, “Swore” they were on the money for the number of shingle squares they bid: 63.40. They shipped 45.5 squares….that’s $3,500 worth of shingles they are physically short…. My own measurements and 15% waste say about 48-50 squares would be needed…
Pending any mis-matched numbered shingles brought in by the workers, what do you say to the roofing company? Do you ask before they start or wait until all 45 squares are used up and the job is finished?
Also, there are no starter shingles, just 3-tab shingles. To get the high wind rating, GAF says the shingles must have 6 nails per shingle and the correct starter shingle. How would you address that?
Monday begins work, you help and experience is appreciated.
Bill
Replies
My own measurements and 15% waste say about 48-50 squares would be needed...
Unless it's a very cut up hip roof, 15% waste is way too high with dimensional shingles.
GAF says the shingles must have 6 nails per shingle and the correct starter shingle.
Meaning their proprietary starter shingle, probably. My experience with GAF and OC is the warranty is void if they can find anything wrong. If the shingles deteriorate (which would have nothing to do with the starter) and you have the wrong starter, you're out of luck.
They bid 63 point four squares? That's pretty darn precise. You can't buy "point four" squares. But they only delivered 45 point five squares and you measured it out at 48 squares?
I'd say use lots of lube and try to enjoy it, 'cause you're about to get screwed.
View Image
Well, I'm an old German...somewhat of a tight-wad, but willing to pay a fair price for a job done right... I'm not paying for what's not put on the house!!! Are you saying I have to pay for their contract estimate vs what is actually used?
I've already cleared this with them. I'm paying for this contract (even though I already have the insurance money) with my Credit Card... If they try to cheat me, I'll submitt a copy of the bid sheet and the delivery invoice, and the pictures I've taken so far... and start the process to dispute the charges. Then, I'll let the credit card company deal with them...and I can still get the reward points..
Bill
I'm saying that something's amiss. If I bid a job at 63 squares then there's gonna be 63 squares delivered to the job. I may have made a mistake (nobody's perfect) and it's actually only 45 squares, although the most I've ever missed by is 4-5 squares and that's very seldom. Usually the extra square I added in is left for future repairs.
But there is no way I tell you 63 squares and only have 45 delivered. Looks like this contractor is a scammer. Confront him 1st thing Mon before he starts. Could be an honest mistake, but I doubt it. View Image
i never tell how many sq. i'm bidding on... i just bid for a completed job
so the issue would never ariseif they ask .. i tell them i will buy al the shingles i need to do the job... and it will comply with code and the mfr's requirementsif the mfr is goig to jerk my chain.. i won't use their productMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
i never tell how many sq. i'm bidding on... i just bid for a completed jobso the issue would never arise
Exactly - but something's amiss with the quantities here.
if the mfr is goig to jerk my chain.. i won't use their product
That's why I resist using GAF products. View Image
I would talk with the roofer first thing Monday morning if not before. Ask him for an explanation. Don't let things get out of hand. Once he starts working, you will have more trouble dealing with this problem.
I would also make sure they are installed exactly as they are supposed to be. These are all things that must be agreed to before work starts. If he's not on board with all of this, send him packing.
Lack of communication leads to more problems in the building business than any other factor in my opinion. You have to let him know exactly what you expect. Don't be afraid to be firm and stick up for yourself.
I have a thousand square reroofing project that started off just great, but the contractor changed habits shortly after I stopped inspecting.
I did my final inspection, and noticed he was now using three tabs for starters, smooth side up, with some joint over joint. I asked him why he didn't follow the shingling directions he gave me as part of the contract, he said it wasn't necessary.
I have asked him to have GAF/ELK give me their okay in writing and i will release his check. I said this is necessary.
He is now installing the correct undercourse on the entire project. I will still have to inspect the entire project again.
He was also supposed to leave the gutters clean by contract,but felt he didn't have to do that either, if they left the gutter guards intact while stripping. Now he has to clean a couple thousand feet after he nailed the gutter guard in place.
Nip It in The Bud
Greg In Connecticut
Put your foot DOWN and don't let a single ladder off a truck until you have this straightened out.
Don't think your CC company is going to fix this after the fact.
YOU need to get this rectified right away.
I would put in a panic call to the roofer right away. Tell him NOW that you will not let him start until the matter is resolved.
Are you sure you are making your count right?
I don't see what the big deal is. Let them do the job and pay them when it's done LESS the $3500 in shingles they 'over estimated'. Sounds like you are a alert home owner who knows the difference 63.4 and 45.5 squares of shingles.
They got caught and they know it.
Bill
Most laminates are now metric (39 in x 13 with 5 5/8 reveal) and most 3 tabs are standard 36" x 12" with 5" reveal.
If they cut off the tab and use them for starters then pretty soon you are going toget seam on seam on the bottom row.
The Certainteed starters that I use are about 8" deep and 39" long.
Most likely they are going to use the 3 tabs for cap and forget the starters. Hey we can do that now that we have I&W. Right.
Don't let them start, until you get this ironed out.
Rich
It's worth noting that this may not be the entire shipment. They may be expecting more tomorrow.
However, the calculation mismatch suggests they're scamming you. I'd say don't let them start until they explain themselves.
what did your insurance company bid it at?
here's the story they are going to tell you'
well we have another 20 sq coming ,the supplier brought the wrong amount.if you so much as go inside and take a dump thats when the suppliers truck shows up and they get em hammered down before you can wipe. you walk out and can't prove different.if you have to have him measure before he starts,or pull up a lawn chair,i went through this in the spring but it was a whole lot less difference than you have. i paid for shingles never put down.
oh the next little item they like to pull is replacing sheeting at 5.00 a sq ft,tell you personally ok it or they better have pics,i got screwed on this one too. got up in the attic ,can't see one board replaced. there answer,its all out on the edges. how convenant.larry
if a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
>> They shipped 45.5 squares <<
Aren't there 3 bundles per square? What, did they ship part of a bundle? Maybe I'm wrong about the bundles/square? How many bundles are there on the pallets?
>> Also, there are no starter shingles, just 3-tab shingles. << Doesn't there need to be some ridge cap shingles too?
Some are 3/square, some 4.
Corporation: n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility. --Ambrose Bierce
These are heavy weight shingles. 4 bdls/sq.Also, there are special hip & ridge to be used with these shingles. 25 year 3 tabs as caps on 40 year impact resistant shingles voids the warranty and is just plain corner cutting.View Image
I have not used that product. I had looked at their web site and it said 3 bundles per square. Maybe I got the wrong product?
I think they may have copied and pasted from the 30 year specs. They're heavyweight shingles (over 300lbs/sq). If they're just 3 bdls/sq, I don't want to pack any and I'd be way over ladder capacity with a bundle on my shoulder.View Image
Some of the "Arch" shingles are four to a square.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
Is this the product the OP is talking about or not?
Dont know, nothing comes up on that link.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
It's a .pdf document.
http://www.gaf.com/Content/Documents/20286.pdf
Was their price per square / installed or just a lump sum price like Smitty described ?
They may have starters coming with them.
Like everyone else has said you should iron it out before they begin work.
Print out the instructions from the GAF site to show him as you discuss the install and warrantee.
Aren't the instructions right on the shingle package too?
I think it's easier to have 4 or 5 printed pages to look over than be on your hands and knees perusing the shingle wrapper.
It also shows you've done your homework.
this could be some kind of misunderstanding in how many bundles to a square. from what you have said you have 182 bundles sitting there. 3 per sq = 60.1 ,4 bundles = 45.5 also when they say it takes x amount of squares that includes maybe 1 or 2 sqs os ridge cap.
is this a possibilty,before you jump on the roofer?larry
if a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
Bill are you in the hurricane area? Is this guy from out of town? I am down in south Texas and no one here seems to know a thing about a windstorm rated roof. If you plan on the warranty everything must be right, including the nail placement on the shingles.
Nobody misses a bid by 15 squares. Cancel that contract and get someone else.
Bill are you in the hurricane area?
Catfish,
I know, the 6 nails per shingle sounds like overkill, doesn't it?
Well, I have good reasons.... ;>)
You see, for all I've been through with the salesman flat out lying about "substantial Discounts", and trying to give me "You have to sign TODAY, or the shingles go up $40 a square.", I was given the "System Plus" by his supervisor at no charge. Since the cabin/shed's original roof was put on in coldness of January, the contract for it required them to 6-nail it. Replacement with like materials and workmanship, this new contract had to do the 6 nail anyway, so 6-nailing the house was logical. The cost for the official GAF starter shingle only cost a total of $10 more than using a 20yr shingle.
With the GAF starter shingle AND the 6-nail procedure, it automatically qualifies for the 130mph warranty for more than 20 years, wether I need it or not.
The next reason was for the "Improved" staying power of the new redecking as well as new shingles... I watched and know that the new decking was nailed with 16d nails on 2ft. centers and into the rafters. The whole "Field nailing" was improved when all those 6-nailed shingles were attached with 1-1/4" shingle nails that went through the shingle, through the new decking, and into the original 3/4" 1x8 tongue and groove pine.
Lastly, I'm planning for the worst... If I can afford all this done now, then if another really bad hailstorm comes, the next time it's replaced the only thing I'll be out is my $500 deductible. The worst case scenario would be if the market really hit the skids where shortages of all kinds become the norm, then warranty or not, I've got a wind resistant, long life roof over my head until things get better....
I know, there's a real concern from all the WIND I just wrote, but that's my thinkin'.... ;>)
Bill
Just wondering out loud......
Could this be a scenario of....... "Hey it's an insurance job. Put more materials on the bill than we really need. Then return the extra stuff for credit at the supply yard. The homeowner won't know the difference or care since he's not really paying the bill. Take the adjustors/inspectors out for some brewskis down at the Bump-n-Grind Gentlemen's Club. wink wink nudge nudge".
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Just wondering out loud....Is this a fixed bid, lump sum proposal?
Just wondering out loud....
Is this a fixed bid, lump sum proposal?
No, this a dead horse, with no end in sight to the beatings...
Naive but refreshing !
No, this a dead horse, with no end in sight to the beatings...
You're tell me.... For me, it's a bid for a maximum amount not to be exceeded...It's bid by unit cost, and I can't see why a company would charge for units never used...
Makes one wonder about who ordered what on the delivery Invoice... Marked out is the number of shingle bundles and written in is 182 bundles that were delivered... The copy of the invoice has price per bundle ( $30.75) and total amount ($7472.25). That means that the total amount originally ordered was.....243 bundles...or 81 squares for a 50 sq. job...???? ??
I'm watching everything done here. There's still the modified roofing on the patio and two metal roofs of Kynar R-panels yet to be started...
But "It ain't over till it's over.", stay tuned..... ;>0
Bill
Edited 10/17/2008 8:13 am ET by BilljustBill
"For me, it's a bid for a maximum amount not to be exceeded"Is that the words on the contract and the other guy thinks that too or have you created your contract unilaterally and the other guy is thinking it's a fixed bid contract?
jim.... piffen has a copy of the contract...
but my GUESS is this is a fixed price job with the unfortunate itemization of material quantities
further complicating the equation is that there is a "binding arbitration" clause
my guess is ...... who knows ?
if you were the "arbitrator"
how would you decide ?
me... i think it is fixed price.... if the work has been successfully completed... then pay in full
the flip side is: if they had been short of materials, would the contractor have a claim for an extra charge ?.... no, right ?
interesting real life lesson in writing a proposal
Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Hi Mike,
Just for the record, I'm for hard working people getting a profit for their sweat and good craftsman ship.
What gets me is that the roof figures INCLUDE a 15% waste factor... the company reps said "We figure 15% waste on hip roofs." My house roof is part hip and part gable vent. The hip runs are less than 15 feet long.
FYI,
Bill
also a real life lesson in not leaving misordered extra materials around for the customer to count!
back of the truck is where that stuff shoulda been.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
They have a line in the fine print saying that it is normal to order extra materials and that any left over belongs to the company.my experience was that ins co likes to see a per square pricing, as they have max price on their books they will pay. So that gets listed to show the adjustor who agrees or not, he is free to measure the thing, or not. It is possible that bill could insist on a payment invoiced by number of squares. In that case, he would have to return money to the ins company also.
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back of the truck is where that stuff shoulda been.
Take a pretty big truck. Sounds like about 3+ tons of materials.View Image
I have the proposal and it is poorly written, two conflicting notations. I won't know untill I see how they try to bill him.
Still too many variables in all the information to take a stand on this myself.
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I'm guessing the same way as you Mike and I think BillisBill is trying to renogiate midstream.
That's the 4000 dollar questionI'm thinking bill's a dancer
Barry E-Remodeler
The roofing company you chose certainly doesn't read breaktime forum... 2 months of this and you still don't have the first shingle installed???
Gheesh.....
If you fire them, will we have another 2 months to endure?
Edited 10/5/2008 6:48 pm ET by sledgehammer
Thank you to each of you that has put in knowledge, experience, and questions!!!
This shingle is rated at 120mph, but if nailed with 6 per shingle and using the same brand starter shingle, they give a 130mph rating.
I'm also paying for the required impact resistant "Seal-a-Ridge" shingles for the gable/hip roof and used on "Cobra 3" ridge vent.
Yeah, it's taken too long to get this roofing project off the ground....some of it was getting in line to get started, some was that the company said they were told by "The President" of GAF, it would be Feb. or March before this shingle would be coming out of the Ennis, Tx. factory. When the salesman came one day pushing Owen/C impact shingle they could get, and saying if I didn't sign the contract "Today", it would go up $39 a square, I wouldn't sign. After checking, the price wasn't going up. I called his company to ask if "They" were going up and never got a straight answer. But I did get a call from that salesman threatening retaliation... He told me "I wasn't the kind of customer his company serviced. He said he was telling the Ft. Worth Office and the Dallas office not to deal with me. The final straw, before I FIRED HIM from my account/bid, was when he said he was calling my insurance company and telling them the bid they sent was being canceled...." It's been a long 6 months dealing the jerks looking to get their percentage or monthly bonus by lying to the customer...
I'm working with his supervisor, 2nd in command of the Ft. Worth office...because of the good things the Company does overall... We'll see how things begin in the morning.
Any more thoughts will always be appreciated!!
Bill
Edited 10/5/2008 10:11 pm ET by BilljustBill
I hope you speak Mex, cause that supervisor won't be doing nothing. When those 7-10 mexicans show up to roof your house, you will need it.
Also might want to check your shingle wrapper and find out about nail placement in the shingle. That is the most critical factor in a high-wind area, not the number of nails, altho that is important. Plastic cement underneath the starter will also help. I've roofed the Gulf Coast in AL and FL for 15 years, FWIW.
And Texans don't like to hire white people to roof, in case anyone thinks I'm predjudice. Not that I care.
Like another poster said, maybe the company delivered the wrong nomber of bundles or he is going to tell that to justify.
Watch out. I have laid a fair number of shingles in my day, and even on one that was ovwer 1000 square, I wasn't off 15 square.
Unless the contract specifically states the exact number of squares.... which I've never ever seen... they should be fired. Otherwise this is all just hot air, and contract law.
So what happened monday morning? Inquiring minds would like to know.
Got rained out...they called at 7:30 to reschedule. What's odd is that the invoice had the number of bundles marked out by the supplier. The math shows that 81 squares were to be delivered...but only sent 182 bundles....They did send 184 sheets of CDX, but only 33 rolls of 30# felt.........
I found on the GAF Website that it's the Seal a Ridge shingles that come 4 to a square. The Armor Shield II shows 3 bundles per sq., so it means that I WAS WRONG, but there are 61 squares sitting out there. Still, too many as I see it. We'll see....
Say tuned, if no rain in the morning, they are supposed to start.... ;>)
Bill
so the plywood comes out to 59 squares....
and the 30 LB felt comes out to 66 squares......
don't jump the gun on this one
Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 10/6/2008 6:11 pm ET by MikeSmith
so the plywood comes out to 59 squares....
and the 30 LB felt comes out to 66 squares......
don't jump the gun on this one
Mike and Piffin,
As a followup to the material amounts, the final count was interesting to me...
They sent 182 bundles of Armor Shield II which, at the Mfg.'s description of 3 per sq., is 60.66 squares. At the end of roofing both the house and gambrel & dormer shed, there were 32 bundles left which is 10.66 squares and counted and signed for when picked up. Total, including waste, was exactly 50 squares (33.5 for the house and 16.5 for the shed). They bid: 63.39 squares at $201.00 a square.
The CDX sheeting was bid at $110. sq. for redecking only the house. At 33.5 squares used for the house (including 15%waste for shingles), they bid 43.76 squares.
On the 10'x36' cabin porch, only the Ice and Water Shield was applied over the old Ice and Water Shield; no 30# felt was used before the new shingles were put in. After our first 1/2" rain, it now leaks. Tracing the leak, it's possibly at the point where one of the dormer's old metal flashing wasn't re-flashed at all with new metal as listed in the contract for the cabin/shed.
Saturday, the crew comes with the hot tar kettle to apply the 43lb base sheet and the Cedar colored modified Bitumen for the 8 squares of Patio roof.
Then next week, comes the day of reckoning for inspection and ADJUSTED COSTS. Would you pay for shingles and decking never used?
Bill
Edited 10/16/2008 10:59 am ET by BilljustBill
Edited 10/16/2008 11:08 am ET by BilljustBill
Update??
Weird.....Roofing Contract said I needed 63.39 squares to do house and shed. Delivery invoice said 240 bundles (????) were ordered...but only 182 shipped and unloaded. Invoice said 1/2" CDX plywood 184 sheets (?????) were ordered and unloaded.
Both roofs completely done, crew gone, and company inspector came by. Final inventory: 32 bundles of shingles were left: 10.66 squares. 56 sheets of CDX were left unused.....
Actual shingles used 50.006 squares used on a 63.39 bid. Which means that they own me a credit for 13.38 squares @ $201.= $2,690.18.
Is overage like this normal? The company inspector verfied the unused counts this afternoon. Is it hard to get that kind of credit from the roofing company?
Thanks,
Bill
that's bs...
if they were short and gave you a bill for an additional $2g's.... would you pay it ?
it's either fixed price or T & M.... which is it ?
Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 10/9/2008 9:15 pm ET by MikeSmith
I agree.
trying to follow this is impossible.
Why ask a question if you're making up/ telling a story?
WTF?Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
You paid them? well sorry but you got screwed. Told you to find someone else that they were crooks. Bet they didn't 6-nail the roof either.
What's T & M? All I have is a contract with the material totals...they are just way off the mark on the shingles....
I've learned from the Best on the Forum that "You don't pay until it's all done, done right, and you're happy"....
Haven't paid a cent, yet. I got the "System Plus Warranty" put into the contract for free, in view of all the real #### I've put up with from the original salesman. But because of that warranty, the roofing crew had to use the GAF/ELK starter shingle and 6 nails per shingle. I can still hear the nailer rhythm: "Shave and a haircut....six bit"
The "kicker" in the contract wording I was a bit concerned about was dealing with returned materials as compared to unused materials because the salesman was way off on his bid.
Bill
T&M is time and materials."All I have is a contract with the material totals"But WHAT DOES THE CONTRACT SAY about payment?Does it say we will do the roofing you need for total X number of dollars?Or does it say, "We will do your roofing for X dollars per square used, estimated at ___"?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Contact says the house and shed needs 63.39 squares @ 201.00 per square.
Decking priced at 43.76 sq. and was bid at $110.00 a sq.
Contract is written with item, amount, and total item/labor cost.
The whole contract for two asphalt roofs with Armor Shield II and two metal roofs with 850ft of "roofhugger", Kynar paint, and 17.2 square of 26guage white R-panel, rake trim, gutters and downspouts, and 74' of ridge vent on metal roof totals $42,457.000.
The contract shows each item has an footage and amount charged. So credit of unused materials should be easy to deduct...right?
Bill
That sounds like a T&M estimate. If that is the case then you only owe for materials used.Naive but refreshing !
One more thing. What's with the material quantities run out to the decimal point like that ?
I could stomp my feet and ball my little fists up from now till kingdom come and my supplier still wouldn't sell me .39 sq of shingles......Naive but refreshing !
What does it say under "terms"? "conditions" ? "payments" ?Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
"The contract shows each item has an footage and amount charged. So credit of unused materials should be easy to deduct...right?"No.
There is a lesson to all of us in this case. We have an iteeligent consumer, who had a contract with itemized amounts of material and how much it costs. The logical assumption is that because they did so, you should be entitled to a reduction in the amount due.
This is why I never break down quanities in any contract I have written.
I would think, without seeing the actual contrat, that you would be entitled to a reduction in the final bill.
I agree it's always lump sum pricing for me too. I will break out alternates to give them a "shopping list" for extras if they want and will show total footage, but I don't price out each step of the process for the client.ML
This is without a doubt the most interesting thread going.
How the hell could anyone be that far off a bid?
Some of those #s look like 4 bundles sq vs 3, but that's a whole bunch of CDX left over.
Joe H
"How the hell could anyone be that far off on a bid?"About a year ago I had a job (garage addition) where the lumberyard salesman sent out double the materials I had ordered. Everything, except trusses (thank gawd). Lumber, sheathing, plywood,nails. I immediatley noticed the overage and called him. He never did have a good explanation except "sorry, I messed up." To this day I dont know what happened but I think he may have needed to up his commission that month. The delivery driver said it happens occasionally. (overage) The extra materials sat in the driveway till the next delivery and I made them pick them up. I think the homeowner was a little suspicious about the extra materials even after I explained the mistake that was made. If he would have demanded credit for those materials I would have been SOL . It was a contract job so no quantities were specified, but it still caused some confusion and headaches I could have done without.
Edited 10/10/2008 5:07 pm ET by wood4rd
One thing most here keep ignoring is that this is an insurance job. The HO is not really the client - the insurance company is if I understand the scenario properly. An adjuster measured the roof and the job was bid from that info. As long as the proper materials were used and they were installed properly, it doesn't matter how many squares were delivered or installed. UNLESS, the HO is paying for an upgrade over what the insurance is paying. Then it's the HO's business how many squares and who what where. Maybe if he sends Paul the contract, this will all become clear.View Image
I've had that in the back of my mind too. You may have noticed that I have been shy about offering much of an opinion on this since there are so many half-baked and missing facts
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I have been shy about offering much of an opinion
That's a first."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
It is a pretty standard proposal, with fine print making it clear that it is much as you say. I emailed Bill more thoroughly but leave the details off here and he can repost/copy/paste it all if he wants.I don't know if these shingles were upgrades or not though
edit - I am gettin gthe rest of the complete contract and more details from Bill. Couple open questions in my mind on this still....
Going to bed now though.Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Edited 10/10/2008 10:20 pm ET by Piffin
I don't agree that the insurance company is the customer.
The insur co might be responsible for the cost, and entitled to the refund, but it's not their roof. The roof belongs to the homeowner (or the mortgage company ). The roofing company must satisfy both the insur co & the homeowner.
OK. The point I was making was the insurance adjuster told the roofing co. how many units they were going to pay for. If the insurance company was paying for the job, then it's not the HO's business how many of what was delivered or used as long as the job was completed correctly.
I haven't gotten a straight answer concerning who was paying for what on this project. View Image
Only if the insurance company was paying for the WHOLE job..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Only if the insurance company was paying for the WHOLE job.
I'm not sure what the insurance co. was or wasn't paying for and Bill has not been forthcoming with that info.View Image
I'm not sure what the insurance co. was or wasn't paying for and Bill has not been forthcoming with that info.
See-U,
The insurance company got the bid that was given to me, review it, and then sent a third Texas Adjuster to go over it and what all was left off by the first adjuster (from Iowa) and then a week later he came back with his supervisor (from Florida) that came after the hailstorm...
By the time all adjusters and this roofing company's bidders had seen and reviewed the damages, I was sent the money, less the deductible, since my home is paid for. The roofing company only has the right to go back to the insurance company if there are charges that couldn't be foreseen and that may only be some decking repair of maybe $250.00 before the new CDX was overlaid.
I guess, technically, I'm paying for the redecking, the shingle upgrade, and part of the soffit and fasica upgrade.
I'm doing the work on repair or replacement of damaged outside lights, wooden raised garden bed structures, replacement of 30 linear feet of 8' tall cedar fencing, and sealing some Western R. Cedar ceiling that got water stained. Doing all this myself allowed me to use the insurance money to pay for the redecking, upgrading to the class 4 shingle, and the new metal wrapped fascia that was all listed in the original bid contract sent in for their review and approval.
By the invoices and signed releases of items picked up after the job was completed, I'm in possession of the information that says exactly what materials were used. They overbid the job and did not use materials or labor, how can they actually bill me for work or materials never applied? By my calculations, they owe me almost $4,000 credit to their bid.
I have received all the money the insurance company and three of their adjusters approved the roofing company's bid. The insurance company has said that when they approved the bid, back in July-August, they considered the roofing company's bid as the final cost and expected them to honor materials and prices they bid.
I'm spending every cent on all four of the roof repairs and the property that was damaged. I can't see that I'm doing anything wrong with the insurance company's money, the way I'm spending it. There's actually none left after all the work and repairs are made, and I have every receipt, including my time and labor that will be given to the local insurance office.......
Would you pay a roofing company for materials never used?
Bill ;>)
Edited 10/16/2008 8:41 pm ET by BilljustBill
Edited 10/16/2008 9:00 pm ET by BilljustBill
OK, you finally answered who was paying for what. I couldn't make a call or give an intelligent answer to your question without the info you just gave me.
If you signed a contract for a lump sum to do "x" amount of work, the quantities don't matter to you.
If you signed a contract for "x" amount of quantities and there were variations then you may have a point.
I provide proposals with quantities and unit prices. The reason I do it that way is I often have to adjust the type of materials. For instance: I bid a job with 30 yr shingles per request. The HO then decides they want 40 yr shingles. All I have to do is change one line item and I can re-send the proposal vs. re-writing the whole thing. Or the scope of the work changes and I can touch the proposal up to suit the new specs.
But, when everything is finally ironed out, I write a contract to do what needs to be done. No Quantities. If I've estimated wrong (high or low) that's not the customer's business. They agreed to x amount of dollars for x amount of work.
If you were happy with the price before they started and happy with the work they did then you got what you paid for regardless of the quantities.
If you didn't like the price, you shouldn't have hired them. If you don't like their work then you've got a legitimate bitch.
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If you signed a contract for "x" amount of quantities and there were variations then you may have a point...
If you were happy with the price before they started and happy with the work they did then you got what you paid for regardless of the quantities.
If you didn't like the price, you shouldn't have hired them. If you don't like their work then you've got a legitimate bitch.
Well, I did like the $201 price, because the money I received was based on a 30yr roof of $160 a sq. Paying the difference could/would be paid back by the class 4 rating's ability to lower my homeowners policy by $385 each year. In 5 years, it pays for my upgrade cost, then continues to lower my policy each year... I'm not happy with paying for 13 squares of invisible shingles.
The redecking charge of $110 a square, seems a good price. Around here 3-ply 1/2" CDX is about $15 a sheet, and hauling it out here, 16d nails to secure it, plus the labor costs, I was happy. Just not happy to pay for 11 squares of "Vapor Decking".
Their bid was for 63.39 squares... I got 50 squares... Their bid for was for 43.76 squares of decking, I got 32.5 sq....
I see by your first wording you can see the honest answer, but the latter words you've also written are from the viewpoint of being a roofer/roofing salesman, and it appears you don't like giving " money" back. The "Lump Sum" is based on cost by unit... no unit...no cost. I'm paying the upgrades out of my pocket,so it is my business to know how much each costs and how much is used.
This company has a binding arbitration clause... I just can't see a third party approving a roofing company that's actually trying to steal money from an average HONEST Joe.....
Edited 10/16/2008 9:34 pm ET by BilljustBill
I can't see an adjuster missing it by that much, especially being reviewed 3 times.
That is your money, you are paying for the job, the ins. co cut you a check and your house is paid for IIRC, insurance in Houston right now is paying around 270 a square. I got that number from the guy I'm working for. We are working for 3 different companies that have policies in South Texass.
insurance in Houston right now is paying around 270
Thanks for the information Catfish,
With Hurricane IKE, I can see the high prices are really high. Is that amount for a 30yr roof?
The last amount paid by State Farm in this area before IKE hit was $180...
Are there shingle shortages in your area?
Thanks again,
Bill
I see by your first wording you can see the honest answer, but the latter words you've also written are from the viewpoint of being a roofer/roofing salesman, and it appears you don't like giving " money" back.
Not so. I was trying to look at different scenarios since you just made it somewhat clear to me in this last post how your contract worked.
If the contract spelled out "x" squares to be installed at "x" dollars per square, then you have a beef.
If the contract is to do tear off, shingle, sheath, flash, etc. for a total amount, then you don't.
Of course I don't like "giving money back". But then, I never would have had an overage like this. OTOH, If I come up short by a square or two, then I have to eat that. And I always order an extra square to leave at the job for future repairs.
I'm paying the upgrades out of my pocket,so it is my business to know how much each costs and how much is used.
It's taken about 50 posts to get that info out of you. If you side talk to people in person like this, then good luck getting this problem resolved this century.
You do have a case. I'd stop them from proceeding until this is resolved.
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It's taken about 50 posts to get that info out of you.
This thread should be titled : "Frenchy and Shellac 2.0 "
lolNaive but refreshing !
....you don't like giving " money" back.
Not so.
Seeyou,
It appears I misinterpreted your point of view, please accept my apology.
I keep thinking about this contract and all the others written with high overages in "never used materials". Those that aren't roofing savvy number many times more than those that know what to look for and can be gouged. It's a forum like Breaktime that helps make a difference between good ethics and workmanship and shadow contractors that rip-off people's wallet and try to hide shoddy work; be that hands-on independents or the sales force number crunchers.
At the finish of the asphalt shingling and cleanup, I didn't grill the seven members of the roofing crew fresh hot hamburgers and all the fixin's, with cold drinks and fresh baked cookies, so I could con/steal away the company's profit. I just hope when they are done, that they have the same intent as I did.
Bill
At the finish of the asphalt shingling and cleanup, I didn't grill the seven members of the roofing crew fresh hot hamburgers and all the fixin's, with cold drinks and fresh baked cookies, so I could con/steal away the company's profit. I just hope when they are done, that they have the same intent as I did.
It's amazing how far a little good will such as that goes. View Image
"I just can't see a third party approving a roofing company that's actually trying to steal money from an average HONEST Joe....."I haven't seen anything yet to suggest they are trying to steal anything.
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OK, that's what my gut feeling was, but getting that info from BJBill is like pulling teeth.
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see PM to you
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I haven't seen anything yet to suggest they are trying to steal anything.
Piffin,
I'm in agreement with you about what is known about their measurement and material overages... The true character of this company's employees will be seen when the total/final cost bill arrives.
In public education, the reaction to, and the way a problem was to be handled, was always defined as "Do What a Prudent Person would do."
Getting out the details to those keeping up with this ongoing process combined with the high materials/cost numbers, and the ability to wait-and-see how things play out, can sometimes cause stress for those inquiring minds who want to know...
Thanks for your help, common sense insight, and experience, too,
Bill
"In public education, the reaction to, and the way a problem was to be handled, was always defined as "Do What a Prudent Person would do."
I think a prudent person would wait until the bill arrives to worry about what the charge will be. Collecting information is fine (and maybe absolutely critical), but just hold on to that until you see what pans out.
BTW- I haven't followed your saga (it seems that some have referred to other threads you've made about your roofing job), but I can't help but wonder if you only got one quote for the roofing replacement. If you received multiple quotes and all were in the same range, wouldn't that be enough to persuade you that you're not going to get the shaft?I guess it's possible that everyone you talked to was in collusion to overcharge, but would tend to think that's not likely.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I have 1 question that has had me perplexed from the begining of this saga.
This is a replacement of a 9 month old roof. How come you didn't know how many squares it was then?
What was the cost then, compared to now?
Probably a fixed price contract at that time.
I have to wonder when the ins co will stop carring hail damage without extra charge!
When I lived in TX, full coverage for hail was a rider on the policy. I presume it still is. Everybody bought it.
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This whole job is two or three buildings, only one of which was new.
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I kinda gathered that with all the different materials involved... hot mop, metal etc.
Seemed the contention was single structure with asphalt shingles.... but I could be wrong.... It's happened before.
This is a replacement of a 9 month old roof. How come you didn't know how many squares it was then?
What was the cost then, compared to now?
The house roof was an Elk 30yr shingle and 14yr. old. I went back and looked at their bid. The past company bid 35 sq. back then.
The cabin/shed roof, Owen/C 30yr shingle was almost to the day, only 3 months old.... As I had gathered the materials for it, for instance, I bought the shingles on a 15% Off price match with 1yr no interest....;>). Basically, I supplied most of the materials and looked for someone to come do the decking and shingles as December started to end. With the cabin's shingles, 5/8' radiant barrier decking, 30# felt, ridge vent, 4sq. of Ice and Water, and the $1,600 for labor, nails, and flashing came out to just under $3,000 for 15.5 sq.( It was a pitiful roofing job). The present roofing company combined the house and cabin's squares and came up with the 63.30 squares on their bid...It's hard to compare apples to apples when the other bids are written in lumps, but my cost per square for the cabin's materials, and combined decking and shingling was close to $200 a sq.
Other bidding companies just listed type of shingle and a dollar amount, which was about the same. I went with the present company due to their BBB rating, past satisfaction record, using a credit card to pay( disputing ability and earning reward points), and the arbitration clause.... The other companies had no way for me to dispute work completion or leaks other than taking them to court...
These current problems could be worse, but I'm just trying to understand what are Accepted Professional Practices and what "Cons" and Deceptive Practices to watch out for.
Bill
"Other bidding companies just listed type of shingle and a dollar amount, which was about the same"There you have it guys. That is the price that he is now trying to beat down LOL!
I have read this entire thing and nowhere have you answered forthright as to how your contract reads. you accepted a contract that you were happy with, and now you want to change it is how I see it. TOO BAD
So, you're saying that a contract base on False numbers is both legally and morally correct?
Bill
No, just legally.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Stop and think for a minute about the position you are taking.if you are going to demand a moral position and that they only charge you the per square rates, then of course, you will be willing to refund money to the ins co that already paid you based on same false numbers, right?See where you are taking this?
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What's good for the goose is good for the gander...
I have no problem with that, should I?
Bill ;>)
I wouldn't know until I see the final bill and compare it to the proposal.Just like you have not been able to figure out whether this company is shooting straight with you or not, I have had a hard time figuring you out - whether you are just a legalistic mind trying to nail down every detail and dime, or an accountant mind trying to chisle the figures counting the beans, or if you are only capable of seeing thing bill's way, or if you are truely taking high moral ground.just sayin...I do not think you are dishonest and trying to cheat them at all - let me be clear on that. BUt you seem to be taking a unique POV on this. The Roofing Co also seems to have done a poor job of communicating and explaining this all to you, from all I can tell. That is what makes it confusing for everyone else here in this public forum. There is missing info - pieces of the jigsaw puzzle are gone and you are asking us to say what does the picture look like....I don't know if the info is missing because of their failure to inform you fully, or if they told you but you did not hear them, or if you heard and forgot, or if you simply aren't saying.So, like a judge, I have to refer to what is written. You shared the proposal with me, and maybe will do the same when you get the bill. Comparing the two would tell me a lot about this company.all those details and confusion aside, there is no confusion about bad work. They need to return and put the valley metal in and make sure it is not leaking there. A lot of these big companies use subs that will try to cheat the main Company too, - that is a matter of their internal supervision and doesn't necessarily say they tried to scam you on that item.
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Fairly put, Piffin. I, too, am waiting for the final bill. I'll do what is fair and legally right to get my roof put on with no cheating or shortcuts.
You spoke of the subcontractor and internal Company supervision. The problems that happened while the new decking and shingles were going on were caused by basicly 3 things:
1. Company supervision for 45 minutes at the start, then appeared again in the middle of the job, and finally 2 hrs. after the crew was gone.
2. House problem with no metal flashing in the only valley was because the boss of this crew also has a second crew and he was gone.
3. The problems found on my cabin/shed were caused because the crew boss was physically there and on top of the cabin roof, but trying to hurry to get it done because he said he had another job near Crowley, Tx., they were starting that afternoon......
Here's my "Punch List" given to the company rep. The crew's boss and the company inspector are to fix these on Monday morning.
Edited 10/18/2008 10:41 am ET by BilljustBill
There is two definate POV's here.
1. That punch list is ridiculous for a brand new roof. It sounds like some very
shotty work. Im still not sure why you would hire these guys after the problems
you had with their salesman during the estimating procedure.
2. As the owner of a roofing company, you are the type of client that I will run
away from, or give a "go away" bid. I wouldnt stand for a renegotiation of my
contract halfway through a job. If you were happy with the price before, there is
no reason to ask for money back after the job is finished to your satisfaction.
While the overage you describe is large, I often order extra materials to jobs to
prevent having to leave the job for a bundle of shingles or rolll of felt. I have to
eat shortages on my jobs why would I credit overages? I also try to leave afew
bundles of shhingles with the HO for any future repairs.
Clear communication and a proper contract would have saved you a lot of
trouble. If you spent half the time getting other CLEAR bids as you have
complaining about the job that was done maybe you would be a lot happier. But
Ithink you like complaining, In fact you were complaining about the roofing job
before any roofing was even done on your home. You share at least half the
blame for this whole situation, therefore I think any credit you may get should be
cut in half.
If you spent half the time getting other CLEAR bids as you have
complaining about the job that was done maybe you would be a lot happier.
Whoa, Whoa, Whoa....Robby,
When this post began, I was and still am aquiring information from those getting a new roof and from those who put them on.
To me, it seems that when a roofing job is bid, with specs on materials and amounts, the roofing company should stay the course and deliver what is written down...without excuses, without changes, and without shortcuts...."Midstream" or anytime.
I told the second company rep. I'm now working with, that I didn't believe the numbers were correct. He came out when the change-over began and did some measuring himself. A week before the new roof began, I restated my concerns. His quote was: "I'm comfortable with the numbers." At that point, I said that we'll know when it's finished.
I still don't get the plain fact that "It's okay to keep the money when NOTHING was done to earn it."
Bill
I told you to cancel that contract and find someone else in the first few posts, you were about to be screwed. Guess what?
I always order extra materials for reasons that have already been stated in previous posts.
Man up and eat it. I&W is very unneccessary in Texass, don't know anyone on the gulf coast that uses it. Felt really isn't either.
I dont think there is any way to get through to you. you just cant seem to understand that you were happy to pay x price to get your roof done and now you want to change your mind after you signed a contract
has nothing to do with whether its morally correct,but it is legally correct
I'm trowing the BS flag on this one.
You have had both the cabin and house reshingled. You knew exactly how much it took then and since they haven't grown.... you saw and overage as an insurance windfall.
And the fact you were asking about how to stop liens is just icing on the cake.
Have a nice day, I'm done here.... I have no interest in criminal activity and I hope they catch you and nail you to the wall.
And the fact you were asking about how to stop liens is just icing on the cake.
Have a nice day, I'm done here.... I have no interest in criminal activity and I hope they catch you and nail you to the wall.
Boy! Did you forget to read all this info, or did you forget your Meds today?
Criminal Activity??????? The less squares paid, the less the bill is....it's no skin off my teeth, no matter which way it goes... For a $42,000 bid, for 2 upgraded shingle roofs, an upgraded modified roof, and two R-panel roofs and their trim & gutters, you bet your booties I want a paper saying they paid their workers and materials bill....I don't want to pay it twice or the legal hassles in the future.
On a short side trip one afternoon, following the hailstorm, I saw a larger version someone's home built like my shed, dormers and all. They had placed blue plastic tarps from the ridge down the gamble roof so it fully wrapped the dormers' roofs. It appeared they had some type of leak at the dormer/ roof transitions. While I could, I paid extra to put the Ice and Water shield on the stripped to the deck dormer and gambrel roof sections so I could just about forget about any future regular or storm related water leaks....
You bet your sweet bibby that the insurance company will know of this overbid...It is they that paid me when the hail and wind hit, not any roofer. If it's anybody that deserves to the handle honestly and fairly, it's the same insurance company that still protects me from future wind, hail, water, or fire. Best watch how you judge people before the finish line is crossed....eating crow cold and old isn't something to look forward to... ;>)
Bill
Edited 10/18/2008 8:07 pm ET by BilljustBill
I agree with you Bill. This sounds like roofers committing insurance fraud. The only reason you have even caught this is because you have building knowledge , doesn't matter when you found the attempted fraud. I have no respect from those who think you are trying to rip off this guy. They are obviously learning a new trick how they can do the same and p.o.ed they haven't done this when they know their out of town competitors come in and take advantage of their communities when hail happens. Good for you for calling this scumbag roofer down on his game. i wouldn't pay them a dime and let them have the buren of proof that you owe them.
Edited 10/18/2008 8:30 pm ET by shellbuilder
The insurance adjuster is the one responsible for the estimate of squares. If the adjuster is passing these jobs to a specific contractor or recommending any contractor, they are subject to losing the license.
Roofing companies do not estimate and then contact the insurance company. It just doesn't work like that. His estimate was for damage over 30% on specific slopes, altho hail is a little different as it damages the entire roof equally.
Many times the roofers are "trusted" to measure these jobs for the insurance company. We had a big hailstorm here years ago and this same mess went on here. I hired one of these insurance storm chaser guys to do an addition roof while they were replacing the owner's roof from a claim. They didn't have workers comp or a state license. Homeowner was furious that the insurance co. sent these thieves out to measure and do the work.
That is illegal and a complaint to the insurance commission would result in the license of that adjustr being revoked. Insurance companies do not hire roofers to measure roofs. the exception is a roof over 9/12, there is a set amount someone can be paid to measure. And individual adjusters handle that.
After Katrina all states now license adjusters. I don't know how many years ago you are talking about, but won't fly nowadays.
"After Katrina all states now license adjusters. "I never heard of that so I did some checking.As far as I can tell MO does not license adjusters that work for insurance companies.They do license public adjusters and solicitors for public adjusters.And during an declared emergency adjusters that work for an insurance company need either a license from another state or identification from the insurance company.This is just to control access to the area..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
47 states license adjusters. I checked with my boss. Didn't ask which ones don't. I have another friend that is on his first storm. Took him about six months to get licesned what with one thing and then another.
"Many times the roofers are "trusted" to measure these jobs for the insurance company."
I'm not an expert on insurance work, haven't even done that much of it, so keep that in mind.
My question with your assessment is the fact that Bill's other quotes were in the same dollar range. Now maybe the company he is working with fudged one square or so, which wouldn't really be discernible, but if he bid a 40 square roof at 55 squares to pad his pocket I think you would notice the huge disparity vs. the other quotes.
If he had three roofers give him a quote, would they not all make a site visit and measure the job? I would not expect the roofers would just throw out a number based on the information the insurance company gives them, but maybe that's common in TX or with high-density storm damage areas.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Perhaps the insurance company will only pay so much per square so they bump up the material to get a total in line with the other roofers.Just a thought, probably not fair. It seems a pretty strange way for a reputable company to write contracts and do business.John
I may have judged this too quidkly. My previous experiences with roofers measuring for insurance cos. was when a major event occurs i.e. hail, hurricanes, tropical storms. You will see the disaster relief vehicles which actually are the adjusters setting up these guys to "help" with adjustments. I assumed the original poster was caught up in this process.
what cheer, netop ?Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
what cheer, netop ?
Cheerio there,
"Klaatu barada nikto"
No news is good news......... Called the roofing company's business office a week ago last Friday. Discussed the 13.39 overage of Armor Shield II shingles, 11.25 sq. of overage on the CDX decking, and 5.12sq. of tear off wrongful measurements....comes to an overcharge of $3,977.50...to their bid-specific contract...
Before redecking, some roof areas, mainly where knots had cracked out or split the 1958 pine, probably some original decking repairs of 1x8" material about 24" long segments coming out of that...they charge $5. a foot to repair, the inspector said...but can't be over $150-$200, tops.
Haven't heard a peep since that phone conversation...
Bill
Edited 10/27/2008 8:12 pm ET by BilljustBill
Edited 10/27/2008 8:16 pm ET by BilljustBill
So, if their bid didn't include enough material and they had to order-back more you would have paid extra for that, above the bid price - right?
he may or may not of paid more,but i guarantee they would of bill him for more and tried to get it.
if a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
Matt,
I don't have any problem of paying for what actual measurements require in actual materials. I needed a new roof and a contractor needs a profit. Honesty and good workmanship is what I'll pay for... If he was honestly short, and didn't low-ball the numbers to get the bid, yes, I'll pay for labor and materials used where he missed. He'll should be able to show me where he failed to count it.... If it's like the B.S. I've seen so much of with roofing companies, NO I would't budge a penny.
The insurance company does the same thing, willing to pay for finding a rotten sheet of deck after finding it when the old shingles were removed... Fair is fair
Roofing companies do not estimate and then contact the insurance company. It just doesn't work like that.
Catfish, it does work like that. The insurance company asked that a copy of the roofing company's bid be faxed to them, if I considered them as most probable in getting the roofing job. The salesman did the faxing. Then, the insurance company would review the whole bid and get back with me. It took about a weekend and 3 days, and they called me to go over it. There were several items left off the original adjusters' paper work, like the metal building's back rake trim and all the gutters, and a few things more. So, they sent a Texas adjuster to come re-measure and check on the items previously left out.
After seeing what the insurance company would cover after the Texas adjuster's additions, the newly revised and increased roofing company's updated bid was sent in June and reviewed again, and then approved. In fact, with me upgrading several areas with my own money, the insurance not only approved the roofing company's entire contract, but they sent me all but $399 of the $8,000 hold-back depreciation so roofing could get started.
I appreciated the insurance company's proactive way of cross-checking the bids and dollars they sent.
whew, I'm tired tonight....but I've learned getting new roofs is a process...kind'a like good, the bad, and the ugly of having a house built... ;>)
Bill
Edited 10/18/2008 9:40 pm ET by BilljustBill
Edited 10/18/2008 9:54 pm ET by BilljustBill
I'm not a cut and paster but you had an adjuster first, then picked a company, then they reviewed the bid and sent out another adjuster.
The adjuster did not recommend this company, correct? If he did, that is illegal. I am currently working for a Texas Licensed Adjuster, been 20 years in the business. That is who my information is coming from.
I am measuring from 15-30 roofs a day, and all that info goes on the claim before it is sent to the insurance company.
Edited 10/18/2008 9:45 pm ET by catfish
Hundreds of roofs were done by this company. They measured all of them for USAA. I saw it many times. I also have a friend who stormchased and he measured for the claims guys. Both entities I know in this used imported labor, Bill should complain about this deal loud and clear. it's just another twist on cooked insurance practices.
Edited 10/18/2008 10:16 pm ET by shellbuilder
The adjuster did not recommend this company, correct?
No, the adjuster didn't do that. I got the company's name for a short list of preferred roofing companies provided by one of the local insurance company's agents. Another agent of the same company didn't have a short list....
The adjusters brought in around here were paying reps from the roofing companies $150 per house to measure and call down the numbers...
Thanks,
Bill
Alright, I've had a night's sleep...better to tell you "THE REST OF THE STORY" of Saturday's Patio Roof........
To update you, the patio crew arrived Saturday morning about 9:30. I spoke with the foreman and we walked the perimeter of the new metal fascia and talked about being careful around it. He said he had some plywood sheets and would put some of them up to protect it. I let them get to their work.
In talking to Company Inspector for this type of roof, by phone, about 2 p.m. on Friday, he said the crew would be pulling up two or three rows of the Armor Shield shingles for the tie-in and pulling up the tar paper laid over the new CDX decking install by the asphalt shingle crew.
About 45 minutes into Saturday's patio roofing, I saw one of the sheets stood against the new metal fascia going upwards. I went outside to check on things and saw that the crew wasn't pulling up the shingles or hammering down nails from the tar paper buttons, but nailing 1/2" OSB sheets over the top of the plastic buttons holding down the 30# felt.
I actually ran inside the house. From Friday's phone conversation, I had the inspector's phone number and I called him. I told him of the crew adding another layer of decking. He asked me how much was installed and I told him all I could see were three or four sheets standing against the patio fascia. He told me to let them complete the sheeting as he was in Dallas and couldn't get out here...
I asked him if he thought the patio framing could hold the added weight and he said yes.... The patio roof is fully installed over the OSB; using a Tamko Organic base sheet, hot tar, and AWAPLAN 170 granulated top layer..... There is an email waiting in the company's 2nd in command email box for Monday Morning......
Okay, I'm not complaining or changing things in midstream, just asking...... What would you do?
Bill
Edited 10/19/2008 9:39 am ET by BilljustBill
Stopped them and ask them to contact the company for instructions on how it was to be done.
I've hired more roofers than I have fingers and toes. It's a matter of when to move on to a new roofer. I had a guy doing roofs for me for a couple years, great work and then for some weird reason he roofs a big addition without using a chalkbox. I think most of them just burn out at some point, I know I would. The worst experiences were with the bigger companies who scatter roofers all over town.
Thanks for finally clearing this up. If I were you I'd go back to the insurance company, explain the whole sorted mess to them and have them and their high priced lawyers go after the roofing company for insurance fraud. That is what you pay them for.
Hold on thereWe haven't seen the bill they send to bill yet. I don't have an opinion untill I see how they do that.But I wouldn't release a dime until they do the metal flashing and stop that leak
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"By the invoices and signed releases of items picked up after the job was completed, I'm in possession of the information that says exactly what materials were used. IF they overbid the job and did not use materials, how can they actually bill me for work or materials never applied? By my calculations, they owe me almost $4,000 credit to their bid."But are they billing you.The question was asked, but you never answer it, exactly what does the proposal say.It is say replace the roof for $10,000 and they replaced and it took 1 sq or if it took 1,000 squares and they had to reorder twice you owe $10,000 in either case.If they say something like $300/sq and ESTIMATED at 100 squares and they only used 70 then you do have a valid question.Let me ask you this.Howes the size of what they ordered compared with the insurance companies estimates..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Howes the size of what they ordered compared with the insurance companies estimates.
Bill,
They are not finished, since the patio hot tar/modified Bit. is being put on this coming Saturday. No billing until Inspector has all the "punch list" of issues solved.
If you could see the contract and the actual materials used, according to most Breaktimers comments, the company numbers are way high. You can see my numbers in the one post just before this one. Their material delivereed and final useage amounts are 22%-26% LESS than what they bid.....
Bill
Edited 10/16/2008 9:45 pm ET by BilljustBill
Bill sent me the proposal.It leaves an open question in my mind.
The fine print standard portion says he is responsible for any upgrade costs.
So I looked to see what the pricing denoted was for that in the itemized listing of items.
For that, the price column says NC.So he gets the upgrade for free, it appears.That makes interpreting this confusing, until knowing exactly how they bill Bill, Bill
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I just got back in from fixing a leak. The house had just been re-roofed this spring and roofer a no answer phone kind of guy.Lady told me that when it was roofed, he had taken his measurements a year prior, and shot them a general price range. It was beyond their budget at the time so they say on it a year, then called to get the price refreshed and have it done.I gather that he was short of enough materials by 30% more or less. The story he gave was that he worked up the new price from year old notes and managed to miss a portion.I missed an estimate by 50% once when I was starting out. I reviewed all my figures and to this day, I have no idea how I managed to screw it up so bad.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Ioo% agreed. This as described is a terrible contract! There has to be more to it.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Bill, If you really want a useful answer, you could fax me the contract copy to review. I use same phone line as the PC for online, sssssssssso I would have to have a specific time set to unplug the PC and plug in the fax machine. I'm on eastern time. Do you have a fax?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
If I remember correctly , this is an insurance claim. Shouldn't the credit be paid to the insurance co?
Piffin,
The roofer foreman is back with the Inspector doing some small fixup-cleanup things to the gable flashing and end gaps to the Cobra 3 ridge vent. So, I've been hanging back and listening to the two come to agreement on what needs to be done...
If you could P.M. me your email, I have the contract on a PDF attachment I could forward to you...and then help give a clearer explanation in general terms to the rest of the readers following this "joy ride"..... ;>)
Bill
Edited 10/10/2008 3:55 pm ET by BilljustBill
I had to run out to fix a leak for a lady - real life calls and all that.send me the pdf at
[email protected]Use your screen name in the subject so I don't take it as junk mail
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Trying to follow this thread is like passing a stone - Since you have seen the contract, Is it fixed price? Or quantity based pricing? Or....?Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
ok 10 squaures off is quite a bit,but whats up with 1800 sq ft of decking,did it turn out you didn't need it or what? thats what i would be worried about. if you pay the orig bill do you get to keep all the materials?theres about1500. worth still on the ground. larryif a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
"Which means that they own me a credit for 13.38 squares @ $201.= $2,690.18."Is that what your contract says? Or are you simply unilaterally re-writing the final payment?
Where I come from if they bid more than needed and didn't leave it I think you have a gripe but like Mike said you were given a flat rate price, weather it be 100 SF or 1Million SF. If they are charging you per/ square and didn't need it and were just doing so to crank up the bid, They owe you a credit. In my business we bid full carton quantities of ceiling material, I've been been off that much, and anything left over does get picked up since the GC usually has no use for it.ML
"Is it hard to get that kind of credit from the roofing company?"I have read many of your threads on this.
I still have no idea what kind of a contract you had even tho a few guys have asked.I always gave a turn key quote - firm bid sum.You make this sound like they bid it on a price per square, but don't make that clear. So how can anybody answer it?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I've skimmed thru and am lost ...
but ... 63 divided by 4 = 15.75
45 divided by 3 = 15.
looks like that's part of the answer.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
did you measure the garage??
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"After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion"
-Neil deGrasse Tyson
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If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
I noticed the shipment of shingles was short compared to what was bid. Let's reconcile the bid versus what was delivered before getting started on Monday. I want to make sure we have the right amount of materials for the whole job.
Also, I didn't see any starter shingles included. Per GAF's instructions, we need the proper starter shingles and 6 nails per shingle to achieve the wind rating. Can we get the starter shingles delivered and confirm the nail pattern you will use? I want to make sure we follow best practices for a secure roof.
My goal is for us both to be on the same page about materials and installation before work begins. Please let me know your thoughts on matching the bid to what was delivered. I'm sure we can work through this together and make sure the roof is done properly."
The key points are reconciling the bid vs delivery, addressing the lack of starter shingles, and confirming the nail pattern. The tone aims to be professional, focused on solving the problem, and avoiding accusations. Starting the conversation before work begins gives both parties a chance to get aligned.
https://www.typecalendar.com/roofing-contract.html
15 YEARS too late!
Bruce.
Spam has upped the game.