I am home owner in need of more outlets in my basement. A neighbor recommended a local licensed electrical/supply shop. The quoted me $100 per hour for 2 guys (one hour minimum, ¼ hour fractions there after) plus parts. Is this a reasonable price/rate? They also stated that the clock starts when they leave their shop and ends when they return. <!—-> <!—-><!—->
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Welcome to Breaktime twintime.
Outlets are one of trhe most basic electrical installations.
Have you considered DIY?, there are a lot of good books in the library, esp on the easier aspects such as outlet addition. 4LORN is our residential electrical expert here. This is one of the few sites where pros will actually give good advice to DIY if you are so inclined and willing to learn.
Don't choke, but complex electrical work on industrial aspects complex as variable speed motor drives and such (as charged by the company) runs in the $200 hr plus travel per person range.
This is a topic of interest to me. I live in a home with aluminum wiring. I am aware that it is undesireable at best, but not in the position to re-wire. Most newer light fixtures, etc. have copper wiring. From what I've read, there is a needed "pigtail". I am extremely uncomfortable with DIY in my situation. I need several small jobs. One light fixture, one doorbell (lower voltage, still scared) and service, hopefully not replacement to three bathroom fans (no lights).
Would any reputable person even bother to come out at least if I have several items and not try to but on the big push to totally rewire the house, which ain't gonna happen now. Plus, would the charge be significantly higher with the pigtail issue, other than the cost of the part? It doesn't seem it should, but I don't know. I'd be curious to know what the price range for the list above might total. These small issues need to be done, but I've put them off too long.
Please don't scare me about the aluminum wiring. I think I understand that it will expand and contract more with temp variations and sparking or arc-ing is an issue. It was apparently up to code at the time the house was built. We also keep our home at a modest 62 degrees year round, so the variation is minimized. (Yep, it is chilly, but needed in a two-story house to sleep well upstairs and keep the peace.)
Thanks, in advance.
A reputable contractor will work on your house doing service work and that is the only contractor you want working there, a reputable one. I think you need to "interview" electricians. Don't waste their time, but get bids. When they are bidding the work(at your house, not on the phone) ask them some questions and decide for yourself if you like them, if you trust them and do they seem to know anything about your aluminum wiring.
Once you find a contractor you like, or even better a specific electrician. Have him or her do all of your work (just ask for the same guy every time). Future service calls will cost less because the guy already knows your house and will by prepared.
The pigtails you speak of, I've done. I researched the whole thing. The only way to replace a wiring device or fixture to code is to use equipment that is rated for use with copper and aluminum wire. I could not find Decorator style devices that were rated this way. The solution was to attach a short pigtail of copper wire to the Al with a special wire nut. The wire nuts are expensive($.75 to $1 ea) so the extra labor and the extra materials should probably double the cost for a basic device replacement.If you haven't drawn blood today, you haven't done anything.
BOSN,
Thanks for the much needed info. I figured it would be better to get a bid on a bunch of small jobs done at once by the same person rather than to try to drag somebody out one by one. I also noticed all the newer appliances only come copper wired. Based on my list, if you could ballpark me, it would help. Would you say under $500, $500-$1000, etc? (I'm in Indianapolis). That might help me decide when my budget can stand to get these things finally done! I realize how hard it is to ballpark things you can't see in person to evaluate, but most of these issues seem (to me?) fairly straight forward. Again, I thank you very much for your taking time to respond to my original post!
Oh, I have a question, does the pigtail thing work satisfactorily and safely if done properly in your experiece?
I can't give you any idea of cost that would be fair or reliable. I'm in Omaha, I can't see your job, and I don't bid work. I do work that someone else bids. The bidding process is a SWAG that I think involves dice, tarot, crystal balls and smoke and mirrors. ; )
All kidding aside, those guys that bid the work have a lot to consider and have to balance making a fair profit after covering all expenses with being able to get work in a tight market.
If you are in a busy market, the contractors can raise their rates or bids to take some of the risk out of the job. When the market is slow some guys cut prices so deep that they aren't around six months later to honor your warranty.
As for the pig tail thing. Yes it works. It takes the AL connection and makes it with a special wire nut to a CU wire. The wire nut has a compound in it that prevents oxidization and therefore prevents failure of the joint. If the AL wire was put directly on the device, even with anti oxidation compound, the connection could easily fail and that is the big problem with AL wiring...the terminal connections.
The pig-tail method is the only way I know of to replace a device on AL wiring according to the code. If anyone knows of another way, please share. There may be some AL-CU rated devices out there, but the styles are very limited.
If you haven't drawn blood today, you haven't done anything.
Thanks for the info Bosn. I am all for paying people fairly for their work and often tip well for a a good job. I'll need to do my homework in our area and make an informed decision.
I appreciate your taking the time to share more on the pigtail issue. It helps me understand a bit more about how it really works.
there is another way which may be cheaper if you're doing a lot of connections, instead of buying those expensive wire nuts with anti-oxidant, just use a product made by Ideal call noalox which you apply to the connection then use a regular wire nut.
Yeah, you can do that, but it does not meet code. The code requires that the material you use be "listed". Regular wire nuts are not listed for use to connect AL wire to CU wire, even if you put Noalox in them. Sorry, but that is the way it is and if I'm going to mess with AL wire at all, it is going to be using approved methods. If I don't, I'm risking my livelihood and that of my boss.If you haven't drawn blood today, you haven't done anything.
one doorbell (lower voltage, still scared**)
If all you touch is the low voltage wires that connect to external screw terminals, there is not a lot you could conceivably do incorrectly that would do anything except ring the bell constantly or not ring at all. It is a good place to start to build confidence. I routinely let my grandkids handle 12 Vdc to make small sparks in open areas, ring bells, and run toy motors with no fear of any harm.
If you are truly a complete novice and have never stripped a wire even, take some of the doorbell wire and practice stripping it with just a knife or simple v-jaw stripper* (I have my 3-7 yo grandkids practice on scrap wire, they think it is fun). After you strip a few, look at the wire carefully for nicks, and practice till you dont nick it as badly as the first few times. Then, using say solid 16 gauge wire, strip a few samples and bend the stripped portion back and forth 10 or times. If the wire had no big nicks and didn't break when bent multiple times, you have learned how to strip a wire.
*You can buy aerospace quality wire strippers that do it 100% right every time, but for only a few dollars the $20 to $50 cost and up is not worthwhile. I only go dig out pro type strippers if there are more than 10 or so wires to do.
**doorbell systems are generally 12 vac or 24 vac. The lowest recorded electrocution was at 18vac in an open wound setting. At 24 Vac and dry skin, you cannot feel any electrical sensation on your hands. If still 'scarred' or cautious, wear light rubber or even dry cotton gloves.
Yes, that sounds reasonable to me.
Coming to you from beautiful Richmond, Va.
I agree with both of the previous responses (FWTIW). Price seems like a reasonable (maybe a touch high depending on where you live), and it's also very likely within the grasp of an intelligent, cautious DIY project...
PaulBinCT - "
I agree with both of the previous responses (FWTIW). Price seems like a reasonable (maybe a touch high depending on where you live)..."
A touch high? The quoted price was "$100 per hour for 2 guys" not just one! I think that's a great price, a bargin, regardless of where you are!
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Only if the second guy is a Journeyman. The contractor shouldn't be trying to charge for an apprentice if there is no need for a second guy(pulling wire, heavy equipment etc.) The apprentice might actually make the job take longer if the Journeyman takes the opportunity to let him do something new on a T&M job instead of a bid one.
But, there are third and forth year guys that I know who I would let wire my house, so its really all relative.
The point? Ask questions and be careful.If you haven't drawn blood today, you haven't done anything.
From: bosn -
"Only if the second guy is a Journeyman. The contractor shouldn't be trying to charge for an apprentice if there is no need for a second guy(pulling wire, heavy equipment etc.) The apprentice might actually make the job take longer if the Journeyman takes the opportunity to let him do something new on a T&M job instead of a bid one."
Two things:
If I was going to have two Journeyman electrician I would expect to pay a lot lot more than that. (Westchester NY)
Most of those small little jobs that I was thinking of that are easier and quicker with two personnel don't require two Journeymen. They require one Journeyman to run and direct the job and a junior electrician/apprentice/helper to help on the other end. Sending two journeymen would be a waste of resources.
And you missed my point that:
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Actually I think we are on the same page. You were saying that for two guys, that's cheap. My point was that its probably reasonable...the second guy isn't going to be a journeyman though.
And, as a journeyman (who usually works alone), many of my service calls would have to be billed at a one guy rate even if I had an apprentice in the truck with me. Which is why the shop gives those calls that need two guys to the guys with help riding along.
Chances are that in the original poster's case, they had a job that required two guys and that is the rate that they were quoted.If you haven't drawn blood today, you haven't done anything.
Ooooooooops... sorry Jerrald, I missed that...mea culpa mea culpa.
I thought you might have missed that but still ya never really know. There is always going to be a wide range of pricing going on out there in the marketplace
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Actually, although that might seem steep to the uninitiated homeowner, if they come when you want them, do good work and don't leave any loose ends hanging, that's a decent price. Having DIY'd a significant amount of electrical, when I did hire a good electrical sub, I was absolutely amazed at how much they were able to accomplish in a short time.
I would also agree on the price but I think the travel time stuff is BS. I might go along with the travel on the way out, but on the way back am I paying for them to stop and have a beer before they clock out at the shop?
jeffwoodwork -
"I would also agree on the price but I think the travel time stuff is BS..."
You're kidding me. Why on earth is the travel time BS? Their employer still has to pay those employees for their time while they are in the truck traveling to and from such a small service call so why on earth should he/she just give away that time and it's related costs to the consumer for free?
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Travel time should have a maximum cap, like 30 minutes or something. Otherwise, you don't know if they are being honest. And if they go to another job, do both of you get billed for travel time?
The hourly price is ok, but the thing to keep in mind is, do you really need 2 people to do this work? Somethings go faster with two people, some things are impossible without a second person, and some things go slower with two people.
If you have to have conduit because the outlets are exposed and all that, then two people who work well together will go faster than twice one person. But if all that is going to happen is that some boxes are going to be put up and romex run to them, then one person is fine. It won't go faster with two.
And I agree with the DIY part. You can probably do this yourself. The Black & Decker wiring books are pretty good, with excellent pictures.
BryanSayer - "
Travel time should have a maximum cap, like 30 minutes or something."
Why? Admidty you should probably choose to work with an electrician that is closer to home if the travel time is a concern but if the travel takes more 30 minutes why should the electrical contractor sending the crew give away that time for free?
"Otherwise, you don't know if they are being honest. And if they go to another job, do both of you get billed for travel time?"
If you have that little trust in an otherwise reputable contractor you have a bigger problem on your hand and should work with one you feel you can trust. If a potential client ever balked at travel time and gave me that argument I would turn the job down because I would anticipate them being a big huge problem.
"The hourly price is ok, but the thing to keep in mind is, do you really need 2 people to do this work? Somethings go faster with two people, some things are impossible without a second person, and some things go slower with two people."
It's been my experience that electrical work more than any other trade often does need two people for what would otherwise seem to be a simple small job. For instance two electrician can ring out a house tracing lines much much faster than one ever can and it often takes two personnel to run a line in wall one feeding the line while the other one pulls etc. If a contractor sends just one person thinking they can handle the job and then during the course of that job finds out it takes two and then needs to send help that costs a lot lot more than sending two in the first place ever would.
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I note you list your location as NY/CT. Hard to say and have no experience in north of the Mason-Dixon line. I'm in Florida and it varies across the nation, as I understand it, quite a bit by area and local economy. South is generally lower, than up north. Big cities higher than rural areas. Mostly correlating to the local economy.
$100 per hour with a one hour minimum sounds about right for your general area. Possibly, if your closer to a city or in a high cost of living area, a bit low. Round here, in the south and mixed small cities and rural towns with a moderate cost of living, $60 to $85 per hour is the middle range. Around here you could go a bit higher and not get a much better job or go lower and get whole lot less for your money.
Your best bet is to call around to other electrical contractors and get a feel for the local prices. But even this may not give you a good read because there is the question of quality. A highly competent crew is worth far more than a dozen clown cars full of hacks. Only way to get an idea on quality and reliability is to ask around. The best and the worse are usually well known and mostly deserving of their reputations.
Of course a licensed contractor who pulls permits in their name, isn't afraid of showing their work to inspectors, back their work and make it right if things go south is worth more. More than a contractor which only gets by by avoiding inspectors, makes you get the permit, if one is drawn at all, and shifts blame and can't be reached if things go south.
I know this isn't the easy or quick answer your looking for but perhaps it gives you some methods for finding out and a general framework on which to hang any answers you get.
Travel time only one way (half hour should cover most). Unless you are a long way out of town or from their shop, then out and back is resonable but you need to know that they are not sticking it to you.
If you haven't drawn blood today, you haven't done anything.
CT Labor Law states that an employee shall be paid from time the normal work day starts 7:00 Am till the time the normal workday ends 3:30 PM ( 8 hour day). Example work starts at 7:00 AM the men show up, get job assignment, load truck, maybe stop for materials, get to job at 7:30 or so and begin work. 10 Minute break is required by law, 30 min lunch break in 8 hr day required by law. Stop working at 2:45 clean up , reload truck, leave at 3:00 PM and return to shop by 3:30. In order not violate state law or pay them overtime they must be leaving the "shop at 3:30 PM exactly!!! I have to pay them for an 8 hour day, but I am lucky to get even 6-1/2 hours of production.
If the only job they do that day is yours, you are getting billed the full 8 hours
If they are jobbing, we charge a minimum service call rate just to show up (this covers travel) and then an hourly/quarterly rate for work performed.
And here's the real pisser, lets say they live a 1/2 hr from the "shop" and we are doing a long term job (tools & material on site) and they drive their own vehicle to the job, any time spent traveling past their normal 1/2 hr travel goes towards the 8 hr day. Example 1 hr travel & 8 working & 1 hr travel = 10 - 8 - 1/2 - 1/2 =1 hr, I either have to have him quit early (7 hours of work) or pay him overtime. WTF!!
And yet a GC will complain about a price or the hours on a job, when he illegally pays his employees as subcontractors so that he doesn't have to pay the insurance and he can make a higher profit!! What a crock of sh*t.
If you find a good electrician, plumber or HVAC contractor, don't complain, be glad you found him, skilled trade workers are becoming scarce, the young people out there are not going into the trades. Remember, when things becomes scarce the price goes up, and in the not so distant future you will be paying a lot more for skilled tradesmen.
My brother is a contractor and has to follow nearly the same law in NE. His solution is this. He does not owe you a coffee break, but he lets you take one(or two). That time is your time back to the shop at the end of the day. However, he provides good pay and benefits, treats his employees well and they respect him for it.
He still has slackers, but this helps.If you haven't drawn blood today, you haven't done anything.
call me an A$$ but I won't pay travel time... I know you can bark all you want... but I'll gladly pay you and more for every minute you spend on my job... I'll shoot the breeze with you know'n it's on my dime... Glad I live in a "right to work state" you guys can cry all you want to about "no skilled labor...ect" "pay for what you get" but when a co sends a snot nosed kid out to fix my elevator that has never worked on a non computerized system and has to spend half a day on the phone ask'n for advice and instructions... I feel i should pay for "production and service" not someones education that they were supposed to have before they got there... how is it fair to me that someone i'm pay'n $200 an hour for doesn't know how to fix what he is there to fix...?
why I always prefer to get a bid and know what it will cost before the work is started... that way as long as nothing changes we all know what the bill will be in the end...
p
ponytl - "
call me an A$$ but I won't pay travel time... "
Okay ponytl, I think you are being an a$$. A big niave cheapskate a$$.
Although it does however sound like you are having other issues with your trade contractors that have nothing to do with travel time and are using the travel time issue to take it out on.
"why I always prefer to get a bid and know what it will cost before the work is started... that way as long as nothing changes we all know what the bill will be in the end... "
Would you pay for that estimate? If not I got to ask why on earth would I go out and spend and hour and half of my time to drive to your venue look at the job and then give you and estimate for a project that is going to take less than a day, that I 'm not sure I will even get when I give the estimate! How in a million years can I justify spending that kind time on you? I guess I just have to add the cost of that time to my overhead and thereby raising my rates all around to all the other customers I have that do hire us?????
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Okay ponytl, I think you are being an a$$. A big niave cheapskate a$$.
Might be so... the last thing I am is Cheap or tight... so you are going to tell me all your guys are as productive as the other... and that all work at the same pace... and for some reason you feel it justified to charge me for them drive'n to my place... well yeah if it works for you and you profit from it... god bless you Just don't go calling me names because I don't buy into your scam... I have no problem with someone telling me... "i'll send a guy out and I'll charge you half a day" I know what it takes to run a business, I've had at times over 50 employees and have sold companies I've built to some of the largest corporations in the world, so i didn't just fall off the watermellon truck, I just happen to not deal with people that tell me "my clock starts when I leave the shop" It smells. sounds bad, and seems bogus no matter how you try to dress it up... if you have to explain it, there is a proplem right there... I figure at best I get about 4 hours work out of even the best trades person for every 8 hours that i pay for... I accept that very few are going to bust their butt all day... day in day out... to actually earn what they make... every so often i get surprised and pleased to watch someone who can think and plan 5 steps ahead have what is needed at hand and know the natural order of things.... this is by far the exception... the rule is a guy who makes 20 trips to the truck... measures the same thing 4 times starts a project with no plan of how to get from A to B and makes 3 or 4 trys at getting there... takes up to 10 cell phone calls in a day.... stops and smokes to look at his half done work.... visits the john 4-5x a day.... and in the end you know the dude really does know less than you and cares less....
like i said if it works for you... great just don't complain when you take your truck in and they charge a min 4hr labor, and a shop fee, and haz material fee... ect.. everyone has to eat and it might as well be you buy'n
p
This group stays busy!
https://www.candlelightelectric.com/home.html
ponytl - "...Just don't go calling me names because I don't buy into your scam..."
ponytl for your information you were the one who invited me to call you an A$$ so don't go crying t me when I take you up on the invitation.
ponytl Sep-15 9:32 pm " call me an A$$ but I won't pay travel time."
ponytl - "I know what it takes to run a business, I've had at times over 50 employees and have sold companies I've built to some of the largest corporations in the world, so i didn't just fall off the watermellon truck, I just happen to not deal with people that tell me "my clock starts when I leave the shop" It smells. sounds bad, and seems bogus no matter how you try to dress it up"
You may very well not be cheap or tight but I'm sorry buddy, I think you've got a real hang up in that you can't deal with that. I had a consulting client I worked with who in fact just sold his company to one of those "largest corporations in the world" that you mentioned and when I had to work on site with him (in central CT)r my travel time to get there and didn't complain at all about it. And when he needed me to travel with him somewhere to visit one of his clients he paid me again for that travel time to. The way I looked at it was my time is my time and if I am traveling I can't be generating revenue so if you want my time you are going to pay for it.
The same rule applies for my contracting company. We see ourselves as a service business, we don't think ourselves as manufacturing products, we make our money selling our time and once time passes you can never ever get it back or make up for it so we see it as being very valuable. If we don't charge you specifically for our travel time that time still needs to be paid for as you obviously know given your business background. We choose to charge for it so you know what you are getting and paying for. An alternate solution would be just to raise all our rates across the board.
We actually don't do any work on a T&M basis or at least very very little. But when we are estimating our projects we figure our travel time to those projects into our pricing and the client pays for tolls and parking too and in the case of working in Manhattan we budget for parking tickets too so the client ends up paying for them too. If you'd hired us for one of our stairs or AW projects you certainly would be paying for our travel time. You just wouldn't be aware of it. That's what I meant by saying you were being niave. You are going to pay for that time one way or another becuase we ain't giving it away for free.
ponytl - "I figure at best I get about 4 hours work out of even the best trades person for every 8 hours that i pay for... " You do seem to have a few management problems on your hands with all the trouble you seem to have with so many of your trades people. I don't know what going on in your work environment but what you're experiencing is the exception to us, not the norm.
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Edited 9/16/2005 9:01 pm ET by JerraldHayes
Re: "and in the end you know the dude really does know less than you and cares less...."LOL.When did you finally come up with this 'road to Damascus' epiphany. I have worked for a lot of different companies. I always get a laugh when the boss starts a rant about 'the workers aren't dedicated', 'they don't work as hard as I do'. Of course this is only half true and to the extent it is true it is entirely to be expected. Of course the workers aren't dedicated. They care less, than the business owner, about any job or task. Workers sleep eight hours and work eight hours so they can live eight hours and, maybe, have a weekend. They work to live, have a life outside of work and raise a family, while many owners live to work, something that often shows in their family relations and divorce rate.Work is a relative term. Often I see bosses, after they see how slowly the laborers move, make a big show of jumping down into a ditch to 'show the help how its done'. Always good for a laugh. The old guy, usually seriously out of shape, grabs a shovel and starts digging frenetically. The laborers step back as the dirt flies. Then, after a couple of minutes, he slows down and starts to puff and heave. He gets red in the face and the sweat beads up. Then, exhausted, he straightens himself up, a bit wobbly, and pronounces: 'That's how you do it'. He then climbs out, any luck he slips and needs to be helper out of the ditch, and trundles off think to himself what agreat leader of men he is. He goes back to the office with the AC and shuffles paper the rest of the day thinking he is 'working hard'. In a way he is. But mental tasks and physical labor are not equivalent. The job and pace is different. Too often I see leaders think that their 16 hour day doing paperwork is more demanding and wearing as eight or ten hours digging ditches, humping cables or climbing through blazing hot attics.Of course he Laborers he tried to impress go back to work at exactly the same rate they always do. Laughing and mimicking the performance. People often work slowly because the job is hard and they have to keep at it all day. You have to pace yourself, particularly in a Florida summer, if you don't want to fall out.As Demming pointed out no one goes to work planning to fail. Everyone wants to go to work and accomplish something. Money, beyond the price of basic housing and food, is not an effective motivator. Job satisfaction, feeling like your part of a team doing something meaningful and having some control over what and how things are done are powerful motivators. Which explains who some of the most effective and happy workers work for non-profit organizations for low wages.Like it or not if you want to be boss your going to have to be coach, cheerleader, trainer and understand that the help won't, can't be motivated the same way you are. If you don't like the way they do something perhaps you could find out why they do it the way they do. Maybe train them to do it another way.You comment about ..."measures the same thing 4 times" ...Could be incompetence or ADHD, could be a memory problem. Sometimes it is because the boss jumped them and yelled about 'wasting materials'. So the helper puts extra time into not wasting materials. Often not understanding his labor is far more expensive than the materials. Sometimes understanding it but thinking the boss doesn't see it that way. So he goes along as best he can. So many times I have seen people cause their own employee problems. They systematically demotivate employees. They sap their confidence and stifle initiative. Some bosses, I presume subconsciously, do this so they can feel better about themselves. If you create a system that induces incompetence and your the only person with his ducks in a line it is easy to feel good about yourself. It is a cheap victory that seldom satisfies very long or very deeply.
re: minor point
eight or ten hours digging ditches - who does that anymore?
Even the grandkids know that if you gotta move more than a few shovelfulls U use the backhoe or trackhoe<G> Most of an owner's remuneration is for having the brains to have a backhoe or other investments in high productivity tools.
Depends of the location. I agree a ditch witch, backhoe, trackhoe or directional boring is generally the way to go but in heavily built up areas, where underground is a tight web of utility lines hand digging it the only way to go. I have been on jobs where a ditch was an 'all hands' task where everyone, laborer, helper, journeyman and master, all pitched in and grunted eight hours a day until it was done.Hard to justify working high dollar personnel on such a task but, at the time, there had to be one licensed journeyman for every three helpers. And little other work could be done until the supplies were available and this initial step was completed. The mechanical trades and plumbers were in the ditch with us. 6' wide and 8' deep over 300' long all dug by hand. As I calculate it something more than 533 cubic yards for the basic unit. Then the plumbers dug out one side at one end to get their slope. Once the ditch and conduits were in they poured a very substantial slab over it.
Understand what you mean, those are those special cases. Dug out a basement by hand once (>150 full load 6 cu ft wheelbarrows, over 30 yards out thru a 36" door), so glad I wasn't anywhere near that job you described.
Met, at an LAX airport hotel, some archeologists who were digging some Native Am. relics from a downtown LA site a couple of years ago. The developer or whoever paid those guys must have had deep pockets, as the archeologists (about 15 of them, all with doctorate degrees) were still at the hotel when I was there 2 months later! They don't even get to use shovels most of the time.
You have many great points... I'm way scaled back from where i have been... I do what I do only because I have a great time doing it... I still work half days (the first 12 hrs or the second...doesn't matter) I'm the first on the job and the last to leave but then it's my job, project... and my money... but more than anything i "DOS" (design on site)... my projects are my jobs... when i finish one... i have to create another... I think no one is more lucky than me... I have never yelled at anyone that worked for me... and yeah I will stop and work with anyone .. if i see someone needs a hand I think I'm the first one to spot it and grab the end of whatever.... somedays I'll spend the day with masons lay'n bricks all day... if it's concrete flatwork I'm the very last to leave even if it's 4am and it's me on the end of the trowl machine... I've never expected anyone to work at my pace... I never expect anyones time for free... money dosen't have the same value to me as my time and it works both ways... Guys get onto me about "yeah you built/fixed it but what is your time worth" my time is worth zero UNLESS I am doing something, how do you value personal satisfaction? I guess I'm more personal with people that work with me than most... I never even introduce or describe anyone as "working for me" I always say "with me"
I think I usally have a pretty good grasp on what something should cost before I ever get a bid... It's rare I ever get a second bid much less a third.. all someone has to do is be in the ballpark of what I expected to pay and there is never a question... if they are way under what I think it should be... I always tell em to refigure and tell me how they came up with what they did... chances are they missed something.. It does me no good to have someone NOT profit from working for me...
I'm not a contractor I'm a builder,developer what I build is mine there is no one to pass a cost onto so maybe I'm in a different world.... but when someone is not being productive it's all on my dime.... why wouldn't I want the guy who works smooth as silk and is think'n what he needs to do 5 steps ahead vs the guy who can't even keep up with what he is doing...
BTW all my hourly guys keep up with their own time... I pay em based on what they tell me they worked... I've only ever had to question one guy... great carpenter, great guy... just happened to be a crackhead that I put through several failed rehab programs... haven't been missing any tools since he's been in jail... hmmm
p
make a big show of jumping down into a ditch to 'show the help how its done'. Always good for a laugh
Wow, flashbacks . . .
I was working for a landscape company (design and installation and nursery biz combined). I did a little bit of everything for that shop. So, we get a pretty big apartment job to landscape--it's an all hands drill (something we did not often see, al lthe crews in one spot).
We've got a bunch of city-code-compliant 40 gallon b&b trees to put into this complex. We've got miles of foundation planting to install, too. So, boss fella runs over an picks a hole, wails away with the shovel to show the crew who has never installed trees before how to dig a hole for a tree. He digs about half, and runs off back to the office. The crew leaders were not going to set the newbies on tree installation anyway. We were waiting, too, as the trailers were still tied up unloading plant material--we had no amendments to put in any dug holes for proper installation anyway.
Best part was lunch time when he saw the bunch I was with hand tilling a 4' sidewal-tofoundation bed. He stormed off looking for a crew leader and could be heard shouting from the other side of the complex. CL comes back over bringing the big walk-behind tiller (stopping work cold at another location). Boss fires the tiller up and tries to lat into the dirt. Bang! Lowest-bidder (this was a HUD-paid-for complex) foundation guys had only used a 2x12 for the slab, no matter what the grade was--there's all sorts of concrete flow under the formwork and into the beds. Some were small, some were not--this one was bad. Boss storms off, not coping well with reality (or his perceptions of our speed versus his expectations). He also leaves the tiller with a busted tine, which causes yet another brouhaha when the rental man gets back his tiller . . . Renting the big tillers was exciting too--they let some folk do things that said folk should not have been allowed to, so one of the tillers took out the backglass on one of the trucks at a red light on the way back to the rental place. (Was good that day, to be one of the "favorites" of management; less so if you were just one of the pee-ons . . . )Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
my clock starts when I leave the shop" It smells. sounds bad
you wouldnt like me to work for ya cause my time starts when i get to the shop.
I figure every minute i'm doing something for you its taking away from my time
a bunch of years ago i went to buffalo ny from west palm beach fla.ended up staying there for 1 winter(and will never make that mistake again lol)anyway bossman wanted everyone there at 7 am but we werent leaving the shop till 8-8 30
drinking coffe and waiting for it to warm up enough so we could get something done(siding and roofing) I was foreman at the time and my crews timecards all said 7 00 am,he wanted to argue about well yall dont leave till 8 or whatever. i said look i can sit at my house till 8 and be warm and comfotable instead of waiting around in the cold shop
paychecks were all for the 7 am starting time
i guess what i'm saying is if you want me at your shop at whatever time,when i get out of the truck and come in the door i'm workin for you and getting paid until i come back and park your truck Due to recent budget cuts the light at the end of the tunnel will be turned off until further notice.
Ok you won't pay travel, no problem, deliver your F***up job to my shop and I will fix it for you myself at an hourly rate, just like an auto mechanic, or a repair shop. Maybe next time I need to buy lumber, or gas, or groceries, or clothes for my kids Ill call the local store and have them send me some samples. I am glad I don't work for an ungrateful, unappreciative idiot like you, you obviously don't hire experienced tradesman that are worth every penny that they charge.
I am glad that I am succesful enough and have the reputation amongst my own trade and others, to be able to choose not to work for a moron like you. Maybe you should go stand in the parking lot of the nearest "box" store and hire your subs, you will get what you pay for. Period, again end of subject. Ohh and PM me if you would like to discuss this in person, they don't call me Bigman for nothing.
Ez now, your going to trip a breaker!
"Tripping a breaker" is the least of his problems.He does not care if the plumber does not tighten the gasline on his WH and the house blows up or the HVAC installer does not connect the flue and allows CO to kill him and his family.
don't be mad at me because someone can be trained to do what you do in less than a month... I'm sure you are skilled... at your trade and life... what you think you are worth and what you are worth I guess i pointed out... and it hit a nerve... you just don't seem to be that special... wal-mart is full of folks like you place'n little yellow stickers on baskets... you sound like you have a great life with lots of folks that love you...
as for travel time... I know everyone has to be paid... just build it in to the price... just like everyone else does... I'm sure you pay all your guys from the time they leave home to get to your place or jobs or do you deliver the F*&^ jobs to their doorstep?
I have guys that take it personal when I don't use them... I pay well... I always pay on time or before and i never question if there is a problem that makes something cost more... I refuse to let anyone not profit from my jobs even if it was their mistake... If there is a reason we can't work beyond anyones control... I still pay my guys... I'm glad i have the reputation and don't have to hire/enrich self rightous a&^ holes... I happen to enjoy work'n and my jobs... if there is anyone that makes it less of a joy to work... then they have to go... glad I'm in a right to work state where i can say "see ya" just cause you smell bad... I'm glad our state has seen to it that I don't have to keep anyone employed... just becasue...
hope you don't take this personal
after all...
I am glad I don't work for an ungrateful, unappreciative idiot like you, you obviously don't hire experienced tradesman that are worth every penny that they charge.
choose not to work for a moron like you
maybe someday you can be like me... and not have to work for anyone...
Ohh and PM me if you would like to discuss this in person, they don't call me Bigman for nothing.
LOL... dude I haven't had to fight since grade school ... grow up
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don't be mad at me because someone can be trained to do what you do in less than a month. Obviously your state does not regulate licenses or require CEU's, so maybe that guy in the parking lot can change a light bulb!!!just build it in to the price
just build it in to the price. On a T&M job?? how long have you been a contractor???
maybe someday you can be like me... and not have to work for anyone... I own 2 homes, have been successfully self employed since 1986, have 8 trucks on the road, work out of a 4500 sq ft office/warehouse that I own free and clear, employ 11 Connecticut licensed electricians (not helpers) work from South Portland ME to Paramus NJ and can handle work that most electricians sub out to other contractors because they are not at the top of their trade. So when a little no-nothing puke like you starts shooting your mouth off, yes it does piss me off.
Edited 9/20/2005 8:46 pm ET by Bigman
Edited 9/20/2005 8:58 pm ET by Bigman
Bigman - "
CT Labor Law states that an employee shall be paid from time the normal work day starts 7:00 Am till the time the normal workday ends 3:30 PM ( 8 hour day). Example work starts at 7:00 AM the men show up, get job assignment, load truck, maybe stop for materials, get to job at 7:30 or so and begin work. 10 Minute break is required by law, 30 min lunch break in 8 hr day required by law. Stop working at 2:45 clean up , reload truck, leave at 3:00 PM and return to shop by 3:30. In order not violate state law or pay them overtime they must be leaving the "shop at 3:30 PM exactly!!! I have to pay them for an 8 hour day, but I am lucky to get even 6-1/2 hours of production.
If the only job they do that day is yours, you are getting billed the full 8 hours."
Well that's not entirely true but I appreciate and see what your getting at. The Labor Law applies to the employer not directly to the client. So if as a client a I contract and hire a contractor on a hourly basis then if the job takes 7 hours I pay for 7 hours.
However alternately if the you as the contractor are looking at the job and think: "Hey this job may take anywhere from 5 to 8 hours to do an it just not going to be worthwhile to send my electrician to another job for just 1 or 2 hours so I am going to charge this client for a full 8 hour day". In that case the client has hired and contracted with you the electrician by the day and pays by the day.
In twintimes case he says: "A neighbor recommended a local licensed electrical/supply shop" so I might infer that is sounds as though this particular electrical/supply shop has a few of it's own in-house electricians. In the supply shops case if those in-house guys go out and work for 7 hours when they come back to the supply house for the remaining hour of their work day they very well might go to work on inventory or some other supply house type task.
I have to pay them for an 8 hour day, but I am lucky to get even 6-1/2 hours of production."
That "productivity loss" really should be figured into the actual Billing Rate you're charging. (Billable hrs to non-billable hrs ratios) Your ratio of 81% productive hours actually sounds pretty good from what I see and hear from most of the electrical contractors I work with.
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Hey Jerrald, obviously you have been around and understand quite a bit about being a "subcontractor" I was not b*tching as much as trying to let other people see what it is like on our end. I take very, very good care of my employee's because I know that they are what make our company respected and profitable. I can't tell you how many times a new customer has complained about paying $55.00/hr per man for a Licensed Journeyman Electrician and a Registered Electrical Apprentice (that I pay for schooling) and I end up saying ok the JE is $90.00/hr and the AE is $45.00 1/2 his rate, is that fair??? ;-)
Or the customer that says $18.00 for a GFI outlet is outrageous!!! I can buy them at the orange box store for $12.00 and I say fine, I will send my guys to the box store on your time to buy them ;-). Obviously a lot of electrical work takes 2 men, tracing circuits, snaking wires etc. Someone else suggested cutting the holes for the electrician, WTF!! we would never run around cutting holes in the sheetrock/plaster first and then try snaking to them, haven't you guys heard of firestops or stepped foundations???
Oh and as far as DIY goes sure you want to add a plug, go ahead, good luck. Every time we get a call from a DIYselfer who can't make it work or half the lights are out in the house now, we tell them we are booked or charge them a premium because they already made it harder than it should have been.
A plumber makes a mistake and you have a leak or the toilet won't flush right. An HVAC contractor screws up and you are to hot or cold, a carpenter flubs it and the door wont shut right or you can't open the window. BUT YOU SCREW UP THE ELECTRICAL AND YOU DIE FROM ELECTROCUTION OR BURN IN A FIRE. Go ahead, do it yourself, take the lowest price, hire a trunkslammer with no insurance. you get what you pay for folks period...end of subject.
Bigman-
Hey Jerrald, obviously you have been around and understand quite a bit about being a "subcontractor" I was not b*tching as much as trying to let other people see what it is like on our end.
That's why I said I appreciated what you were getting at and I think I was adding my comments probably just to clarify your point which I though was a good one.
And when you say:
You're making a real good point again too.
We were doing demo last fall on a section of a house that I could easily identify had been homeowner wired by a previous owner. We shut off all the breakers to the area we were working in and there I was taking apart some of the wiring and low and behold I was getting jolted from a line that was supposed to be dead. It was a hot neutral. Scared the wits out of me and pissed me off. Why homeowners take chances doing their own electrical I'll never know. Being in the trades for as long as I have I know a fair amount about electrical and I always call an electrician.
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Ah, the great high priests of electricity, pay them mucho $$$ or you will die!....bull-twacky!
I threw my first electrician off the job I'm on because he made unacceptable comments of a sexual nature to the teenage daughter of a guest...who went right to her parants, who went right to the management...
His replacement (from the same sub) came to work every day in a shirt saying "let me drop everything and get to YOUR problem"...& he was too fat to wear the shirts we supply to the subs working on site...
these guys were from a "professional", licensed, bonded shop....they worked short hours, did at least half their work poorly or downright wrong, gave me attitude all the time...
they installed plastic flex in a commercial hospitality building, insisted that it was "required by local code", & then got shot down on rough in by the inspector, who they didn't want me to be around because I might mess up their inspection...I had outlets that read 19V, floor boxes that shocked the carpet installer...and more
like I said, bull-twacky...I willingly pay for knowledge and quality, but basic electrical work isn't rocket science...and electrical contractors who try and sell it as such are full of it...
electricians one day will be worth their weight in gold just for the fact, that know one that has trained for five years with a licensed journeyman and has to attended three semesters of school (kids do not want to get into trades nowadays-spells shortage)wants to crawl into itchy, dark, tight, etc. spaces that are either 130 or 30 degrees F to drill holes & fish wire to update your old house wiring, but we do because that the nature of our job and we all expect to get paid for the nature & quality of our work. I believe $100/hr for two men is a deal when u take in account the knowledge, guidance,equipment,soaring fuel prices & maintenance-your going to pay one way or another.
Edited 9/17/2005 1:05 a.m. ET by cutty
Edited 9/19/2005 1:34 am ET by cutty
...on the money cutty
.....and welcome aboard now HANG ON, with a few of these posts ,and I mean a few, I have read about electricians taking the brunt of everybodys' bitches,moans, and complaints.
One guy whines that an electrician does not know sh#t about his elevator
.....someone else thinks half the travel time is FREE,
another thinks that all electricians are beer drinkers ...on his dime
.... the next time these babies have a problem they should call .......a roofer"
Hey, don't get me wrong, I agree that a good electrician is worth the money....but if your electrical work isn't any better than your grammer & spelling, I wouldn't hire you....again, please don't take this as a personal insult, it's just that if you can't speak or write well, I won't be confident that you can do your work to my standards....
Ah, the great high priests of electricity, pay them mucho $$$ or you will die!....bull-twacky!
Every Contractor has an in-house culture. Those guys you spoke of wouldn't have made it a week at my shop. If that contractor keeps this kind of crew and accepts this kind of work all he'll ever do is shacking.
There is too much to mess up when doing electrical work. Some of the simplest errors can cause a fire or shock. Go ahead...hire the hack or DIY, but your taking the risk if what you have is complicated.If you haven't drawn blood today, you haven't done anything.
"A plumber makes a mistake and you have a leak or the toilet won't flush right. An HVAC contractor screws up and you are to hot or cold, a carpenter flubs it and the door wont shut right or you can't open the window. BUT YOU SCREW UP THE ELECTRICAL AND YOU DIE FROM ELECTROCUTION OR BURN IN A FIRE. Go ahead, do it yourself, take the lowest price, hire a trunkslammer with no insurance. you get what you pay for folks period...end of subject."Ok I will send a plumber over to your house to change the WH. But since all of the damage that he can do is poor flushing toilet he won't bother to put put a PT safety on the WH, nor will he bother to tighten the gas line.And the HVAC since the only damage that he can do is make you hot or cold he won't bother connecting the flue up. What harm is a little exhaust fumes from a furnace.And the carpenter will built you a new 2nd story deck. He will use a handfull of 8's to tack the ledge board on the house.
You mention the DIY types who dig their own graves.Got a service call from a lady. Seems her husband had tried to fix an electrical problem with a light in a hall. We. helper and I, figure what the hell we can do a quick half hour job and make lunch.We get there and all the electrical boxes within something like ten feet of the two switches have been open up and all the wires completely disconnected. She explained that her husband was trying to fix the light and seems to have gotten in over his head and shocked a few times. No kidding. He was at work and not due for four hours.Took us almost two hours to ringing out and reconnect the wiring and devices he had removed. Once we got it back together we troubleshot the hall light. A simple three-way circuit with the light fixture wired in between the two switches. Old hat if you understand the circuit but a fairly complicated circuit conceptually. Draw it and it isn't hard to understand but work it without this understanding and it was easy to see how he would lose traction.The repair was simple. It was a defective three-way switch. His handywork had converted a 1/2 hour minimum charge and $6 parts job, $76, into a two hour and part, $181, job. She happily wrote a check and we left before he got home. Good money to be made sinking the shots the DIY types miss.
Prices can vary widely on electrical work. For example, this spring I had 220 run out to my detached garage and the garage wired with receptacles and lighting, including a panel. Estimates ran from $3,250 to $1,275 for the same work (outlet locations were marked and the lights were in place). All work to be done with a permit. I went with the cheapest and am satisfied with the work.
Dosen;t anyone pay by the opening? Like $35. an outlet or switch And X amount per circuit etc.
TRIGGER-
"Dosen;t anyone pay by the opening? Like $35. an outlet or switch And X amount per circuit etc. "
Sure when we are GCs we do most of the time but that really only applies when you are buying a bunch of tasks. For instance I gave a client a quote today of $85 per baluaster for a certain style of baluster (in-house we do a lot of stair railing). If this client wanted only one baluster, just one installed, I would probalby charge them $390 to $450 for that little job.
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I here ya!
Dosen;t anyone pay by the opening? Like $35. an outlet or switch And X amount per circuit etc.
Might be, but given the overhead & payroll costs in running an electrical contracting shop, I can't imagine it would be any cheaper and also a good business model.
That's because, no matter how simple the cirucits are, there are still complications. Like 3-way switches, or sub panels, or the like. Some 3-way switches are simpler than others. Not just, "oh, can I get one in the middle?" but things like a "simple" run where the travelers go from one side of the house to the other before going to the lights controlled.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Some shops will quote a per outlet, circuit price with a allocation for the lengths of run. This is typically done by location. The fact is in old work it is access, the trouble of running cables within walls and across ceilings, is the largest single factor that causes the cost of a job to rise unexpectedly.In some districts all the houses, typically tract housing, share a common design and construction method. If I work a lot in the area and you call up telling me you want to add a receptacle in the hall to run a vacuum cleaner I pretty much know what is involved. I know how hard it is to get to that location and where I can expect to tap the power. In areas where the construction and design are inconsistent the prices for similar jobs will vary more. A good example about ten years ago was two houses which set next to each other. Both wanted a single receptacle added on a dedicated circuit for computers. In the usual fashion we did one and work of mouth caused the neighbor to want one. One house was a Florida cracker style, A low, single story, square structure of wood with both crawl space and large open attic that were contiguous with all the rooms and walls. The other was a earth bermed home built of concrete block on a slab with a flat roof. The general shape was a ring with a garden, patio and pool in the middle. The cable has to go the long way round and the route was a series of blind shots and fishing expeditions performed in dark, tight and poorly ventilated areas.In the first case it took about an hour and ran about $125. In the later it took four hours and ran something like $350. Took almost an hour to figure out that we had a good chance of being able to do the job at all and present her with an estimate. We had to route the cable through a duct chase, not the duct, two closets, a pantry cabinet and a blind shot through 25' of the flat roof between the two closets. We got lucky. No need for surface wiring and dead zones, chases and closets, were in the right places. Partly because we had a good and highly experience crew the pulls went smoothly. She got a bargain. We had given her an estimate of a full day, seven billable hours, and $550. Old and service work is like that. In both cases the jobs could be done in an acceptable manner. But one took a lot more time and effort. Unit prices aren't possible in such cases. Even minor variations in framing or design, some not visible or detectable until your up against them, can cause the difficulty of job to swing wildly. Minor design differences such as how ceiling joists are blocked, on a flat roof or between floors, make a difference. No blocking makes the space between joists open chases which are easy to fish cables through. X-bracing can be fished but can be frustrating and, randomly, snag fish tapes and cables. Solid blocking has to be drilled or avoided.What makes old work electricians worry is inconsistency. A block of a hundred tract homes all with X-bracing except where one carpenter was hired for a week. That one has solid blocking. The time it takes to do a job can blow sky high while profits, because a written estimate was given, sink.Even worse is inconsistency on a single job. This can cause the boss to wake in a cold sweat. An entire hose with all the joists run without blocking, great, or X-braced, still good. But between two of the joists, in the middle of the living room ceiling and far from either end of the run, there is a solid wood blocks which has cracked just enough to let a fish tape through. Lacking a really good crew a $2 piece of wood is going to sink the profits on the job. It is going to bring progress to a grinding halt. Both a crew and boss are going to get hot and frustrated. Job satisfaction will hit the rocks. People might quit. Relationships crumble as people are stressed and sharp words used.An experienced crew will usually hang tough, realize what is going on and find another way or solution pretty quickly. A good old-work crew has a large bag of tricks gained though hard experience. They take it more in stride. People who do service work will tell you anyone can do new work where the walls are open and things are clean and neat. Old work is a much harder job. More stress. More experience needed. Expect to pay more for a good old-work crew.
Don't forget about the cost of the truck, gas, tools, and knoweledge.
Around here it's $150. per outlet.
One of the time-consuming portions will be cutting the holes and running the wire. See if the electrician will let you do that. You could locate the outlets where you want, cut the hole in the sheetrock, and run romex from outlet to outlet. Then when the electrian is on the job, all they need to do is install the boxes and devices, and make the connections at the panel.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Is this a reasonable price/rate?
Might be. It's more than I can get work done for, but I'm not i nthe ny/ct area. Clock running from shop to shop is pretty typical for that kind of small (to them) job. Also very typical to send two hands, one will be a journeyman and the other a helper.
Does the price include materials? If so, that's probably a real good price if your basement requires conduit to run the outlets.
an electricain can cost a fortune if change orders come up,
or you let them use a sawzall
well actually I think plumbers are more expensive when it comes to what it costs to fix a job after someone with a sawzall has been at it