What equipment and materials do I need?
rosroy
| Posted in Construction Techniques on
I have a large ugly concrete wall that I want to make pretty and look like stucco. No one on my small island knows how to do it.
What equipment an materials do I need. Where do I fine the materials?
p.s. The wall is outside.
Replies
Roy,
You need to tune into the Martha Stewart show. You'll get lots of decorating ideas there. Try some trompe d' oeil [triumph of oil] for the stucco effect.
Another idea is to go to your local crafts store and buy lots of decals and stick them to your hideous wall. Pansies are particularly effective in this circumstance. Also there is something called "tole painting", I think. But you have to watch PBS for that.
If all else fails, you can always resorts to the old fraternity strategem of plastering [papering?] it with Playmates of the Month. At least - no matter what - you won't get any comments about "What an ugly concrete wall you have, Roy."
And what about wallpaper? Of course, use the outdoor-rated kind. And then epoxy on various objects such as Model A differentials, scraps of termite infested wood scraps, dead honey bees and forged Impressionist paintings.
- Peter
Pay no attention, Roy. I am sure someone will come along to give you some advice. I'd imagine that a mason will probably give you a portland cement/sand/color formula to try and advice on how to apply.
What Island?Steelkilt Lives!
Roy - Click here for one reliable direction in which you could go. You will probably have to special-order materials but you want to go to a high-quality product (from Thoro, ChemSystems or similar - not homemade) for best performance and to avoid cracking.
T. Jeffery Clarke
My concrete foundation was badly formed with whatever boards were at hand so it was pretty ugly, too. I sandblasted it clean (this is important) and used a run-of-the-mill mortar mix to parge it, which essentially means to slather it with a layer of mortar, after wetting it well with a garden hose. I got some cracking when i mixed the mortar with too much water--but it worked fine once i got the mix right and it was pretty low tech; i just smeared it on with a plasterer's trowel. Knowing more now, i would use a bonding agent on the wall and a plasticiser to made the trowel work go easier and reduce cracking. My concrete guru tells me sharp sand is the better way to go--not sure if you'd have that available, though.
Roy
and beach sand isn't sharp sand. Jeff * Jeff J. Buck/ Buck Construction/ Pittsburgh, PA *
2nd Generation Buck Const, 3rd generation Craftsman
Splints,
How do you sharpen sand?
Diamond stone
Water stone
Wet dry sand paper and a piece of glass
A belt sander
Come to think of it how do you dull sand?
:)
T-Bone
Layers
Onions
Have
Layers,
Carpenters
Have
Layers
Sand cannot be sharpened, Mr. T. There are some things that just can't be taught.
Sure it can. You just throw about five gallons at a time in to the clothes dryer set on normal. All that rolling around chips it up real good. You can get special effects with the delicate setting.
Yet another exapmle of an ordinary appliance stepping out of the box! I can do about ten pounds of carrots at a time in the washer with a terry towel and a couple capfuls of Woolite. I learned the delicate setting is mandatory.
I DO watch Martha Stewart and all kinds of other shows of that ilk. One of them is called "Surprise Gardener" and half the time they go in somewhere with an ugly wall, and first thing they do is paint it. Sometimes they do a mural, yeah. With a door in it, clouds. Whatever! (Yeah, most of the time it's tacky as all get out. I saw 'em tile and grout a wall with broken mirrors and plates in the shape of a sun. Yuk.) Then they landscape all around it. Of course, the catch is it all happens in one day. They never show 2 months later what happens to the paint.
I have messed around with concrete block walls just enough to know that nothing I have tried works very good. Anywhere there was efflorescence, whatever I put on just flaked off. It's like painting weathered wood. If you don't get it on when it's new, you pretty much have to just start over.
If you can think of something besides treating the wall directly, it will probably be the least likely to fail in the weather. Never underestimate the power of vines. Planter boxes at the top with vines growing down, or at the bottom, string some wires, vines going up. Voila. I don't know where you live, but I have great luck here with creeping fig going up and English ivy going down here in the South.
I've seen one of those shows build a fountain in the corner of a wall. Or pile up rocks against it and make an interesting terraced effect with plants stuck in. I've also seen them just build a picket fence right in front of it and paint that.
Have you got a Hilti gun? Shoot you some pressure treated 2x2s into that wall and nail on some HardiPanel. Build you a cute little cap on top. Paint it. Done.
What a great opportunity you have to decorate a wall! Good luck.
B
Like Splinty said, clean it good, apply a bonding agent, and mix a retarder into you standard mortar mix. Or there are special topcoat systems. Comproco is one I'v e used.
If you don't have a healthy forearm and wrist, you'll need help.
As to tools, a hoe to mix in a boat or wheelbarrow, a pointed trowel and a 8 or ten inch float.
Excellence is its own reward!
Edited 4/2/2002 4:43:40 PM ET by piffin
Good advice there BReese... Roy i would do anyone of those things this guy just typed... and never mine pm22....He's a rare one around here....Go with your best instinct and you'll have a nice wall...
Sorry BReese...I didn't realize you were a lady...My mistake.. I just read that on another post...
Don't put up timber furring strips and then stucco -- if there's any moisture you'd just be asking for rot later, even with PT.
To prepare the wall, you've a choice of pressure-washer, sand-blast, paint on Muriatic acid and leave for 20-30 minutes before neutralising with a soda bicarb solution, bush-hammering --- there are many ways of getting it clean enough to obtain a good bond whatever state it's in and all of them are a lot cheaper than forming another wall in front!
You ignorant git! don't you know hes a contractor?
Do you meanHe's getting smaller by the day??
Pete. I'll have to correct and write up your scorecard here.
Is this wall actually formed concrete or is it block or brick?
Good question. 9/10
It may be too late to stucco directly to it with or without a bonding agent if the wall was once painted or is rather dirty or mossy. you'll never get it clean enough to have a permanent, lasting, worthy bond.
As Ian has already pointed out. Bad advice. 0/10
Clean it well and then fix wire mesh to it. Stucco over this and you will have a better result. Shoot the mesh on with a hilti gun and use washers with the nails so that the mesh doesn't just slide off the nail heads.
Yes. Thats good advice. You could have said what size mesh, but basically good advice. 9/10
You could also try to fur out the wall and apply any other type of wall finish that you would like. You'd essentially be working over a new wood framed wall.
Bad advice Pete. 0/10
Total score. 18/40 Keep trying. You'll get there.
Pete
Pete hit the nail on the head, now you must do the same over and over and over. You must have the wire mesh to get it to stay and not crack. A bonding agent does not hurt either but will not do the job on its own. You must nail the mesh on very well dont skimp on the nails. You would have an easier time just framing a wall over this area and rock it baby. Good Luck
So you think it's a good idea to put timber furrings on what may be a damp wall and cover them with vinyl or aluminium or cement-fiber siding, do you?
You didn't consider that you might possibly be setting up an ideal situation for the timber to rot?
You didn't suggest any precautions against moisture from the wall affecting the timber?
For your information it is perfectly feasible to prepare the surface of the existing concrete wall so that the stucco will bond without going to the expense of a mesh backing, so to state that it isn't possible is wrong.
Pete.
But that's why I'm replying to your advice. Children shouldn't be giving advice in this section. And you've demonstrated your childish abilities once again with the advice you've given here. Now. If you cant stand the heat, go over to the tavern.
Contracturaly yours
Nigel
now I'm curious Nig....what's the "correct" way to side.....not stucco.....a block or brick building? Eager to learn......Jeff * Jeff J. Buck/ Buck Construction/ Pittsburgh, PA *
2nd Generation Buck Const, 3rd generation Craftsman
Jeffy
As a 3rd generation craftsman surely you know the answer to that question?
1. Who asked anything about the correct way to side a concrete or block building?
2. Why would you side a concrete or block building?
3. Does your Mommy know you are in here playing?
4. How are your dovetails going?
Your Big Brother ( watching )
Nigel
Fantastic info big brother.
I'm sure your detailed answer is appreciated by all.
Maybe I'll just use Pete's methods.......seems like others may also.
This little exercise is finished. Jeff
* Jeff J. Buck/ Buck Construction/ Pittsburgh, PA *
2nd Generation Buck Const, 3rd generation Craftsman
Edited 4/5/2002 7:37:27 PM ET by Jeff J. Buck
Pete
Are you trying to tell us that the proper way to stucco/plaster/render ( whatever you want to call it ) over an existing concrete/block/brick surface is to attach mesh first?
Please clarify?
A concrete or CMU wall above grade should not be damp. Furthermore, the furring over the wall will cause an airspace to reside between the siding and wall. This is a common procedure.
Do you KNOW that it's above grade? -- NO
Will the airspace do any good if the wall IS damp unless it is ventilated? -- NO
Is it a common procedure? -- not unless the person doing it is ignorant of correct building techniques.
As for it being feasible to stucco directly over this wall with no mesh backing, following the same logic, it is feasible to paint an old weathered wood wall without scraping and cleaning the old paint first.
To prepare the wall, you've a choice of pressure-washer, sand-blast, paint on Muriatic acid and leave for 20-30 minutes before neutralising with a soda bicarb solution, bush- hammering --- there are many ways of getting it clean enough to obtain a good bond whatever state it's in and all of them are a lot cheaper than forming another wall in front!
That's what I recommended to do to PREPARE the wall to ensure a good bond -- so it doesn't follow the same logic at all, does it?
Mesh is only necessary where the existing surface is unstable or cracked.
Ian,
Pete gave GOOD, SOUND advice for an EXTERIOR concrete wall. Done all the time, just like that, ALL OVER THE COUNTRY! And yes, wire mesh is used on these walls for best adhesion and grip of the stucco mix.
Do you KNOW that it's above grade? -- NOWill the airspace do any good if the wall IS damp unless it is ventilated? -- NOIs it a common procedure? -- not unless the person doing it is ignorant of correct building techniques.
How do I know it is an exterior wall, and above grade? The very first post says so. I'm sure that almost every stucco pro in the country will disagree with you about their level of intelligence and quality of their work.
Just a thought...James DuHamel
J & M Home Maintenance Service
"Southeast Texas"
Well said James. I didn't think Pete's use of the wire mesh was anything but a reasonable standard. Maybe they do it differently in other countries, but here it's done all the time. It's no big deal, and not expensive or time consuming to put on, so what does it hurt to ensure a better, longer lasting bond?
Man, if you guys don't like Pete, well whatever, but he didn't deserve the crap you just dished out...
Mad Dog
Scott
Just sorting the men from the boys. Pete has been dishing out some pretty doubtfull advice while you were sunning yourself in Brazil.
As to " here it's done all the time". That doesn't make it right. "Here", it's accepted practice not to cope internal corners on baseboard.
Does that make it right?
Yeah right!! All it makes it is downright sloppy and unprofessional!
Likewise the use of mesh on stucco. And I'm not disputing the use of mesh with stucco. In certain applications. And just to clarify. I'm not talking chicken wire.
But what we are talking about here, is Petes advice to
1. basically fur out and side over a wall and
2. you'll never get it clean enough to have a permanent, lasting, worthy bond.
Well I'm sorry but this is just BS.
As Ian G and Splints has already pointed out, concrete can be prepped to a surface acceptable for stuccoing direct onto.
If the existing surface is dirty/ painted or mossy as Pete pointed out, Stuccoing over mesh won't help. Your surface is not prepped to allow the stucco to key on and you will just be relying on the mesh to hold everything together.
This will result in cracking and drummieness to form in your finish. Hardly desirable?
Preparation is the key. A clean surface then key coat, scratch coat, finish coat. No mesh required.
You may both be long standing members of this forum, but don't be so hasty to defend wrong advice.
Edited 4/6/2002 5:19:21 AM ET by nigel
Tha's okay nigel. It looked like a breaktime witchhunt to me. That's all.
I didnt' realize that what it really was, was that you and Ian are just really INTO the preparation work before slapping on some stucco mud. That's my mistake.
DogMad Dog
James,
Can you give me just one good reason why you would go to the extra expense and work of fixing mesh to the wall when a perfectly good bond can be obtained by treating the concrete surface? --- thousands upon thousands of square metres of concrete wall are rendered successfully in this country every year without the use of mesh.
By the way, the poster said that it is an exterior wall, NOT that it is above grade. It could quite easily be a retaining wall and subject to water infiltration and dampness -- something that should have been considered, or questioned, before recommending fixing timber to it.
Ian,
You are correct that the post does not imply if it is a retaining wall or not, but common sense would dictate that it is not. I have never met anyone that would go through the trouble or expense of applying stucco to an exterior retaining wall, but it is possible I suppose. By looking closely at the original question, I would venture that it is either a garden type wall, a barrier wall of some sorts, or the exterior wall of his home. He is looking for a way to attractively decorate and finish the wall so that it looks good for everyone who sees it.
Can mesh be left off and still get a decent bond? Sure. Mesh is used to get a BETTER bond, and add more stregnth to the stucco surface. As for adding the "timber", the furring strips are a good idea as long as they are installed correctly, and with a vapor barrier behind them. This is called a rain screen around here, and lets any moisture that builds up behind the siding (the reason Pete refered to them in the first place) to drain harmlessly to the ground. Common sense would also tell ya that since the wall is exterior, treated furring strips would be used.
Using the word meters makes me think that you are not from the US, so the installation of "thousands of square meters of stucco" without the use of mesh where you are from does not exactly constitute that we do shoddy work here in the States (or vice versa). Different strokes for different folks I guess.
I do know that Pete's advice was good, and is used extensively here in the States. His method (and others that use the same) add mesh for a stronger stucco surface. We also use rain screens when necessary to help prevent the premature failure of exterior wood siding.
Just a thought...James DuHamel
J & M Home Maintenance Service
"Southeast Texas"
Just a couple of thoughts.
First, mesh will help maintain stucco integrity when the stucco is applied to a flexible ground such as a framed wall, but could be considered overkill on a rigid concrete wall. It might even interfere with a good bond to the concrete.
Second, rain screen walls are effective, but only when properly ventilated to allow the trapped moisture to escape. They MUST be properly detailed to work. In B.C., we are dealing with a problem where the cladding systems on high rise concrete towers are failing because water is getting behind the cladding and rusting out the steel studs. There have been a few instances of the cladding falling to the street from upper stories because of the failure. I'm not sure why you would want to introduce the extra complexity and risk from a rain screen to what should be a simple job.
James
You are correct that the post does not imply if it is a retaining wall or not, but common sense would dictate that it is not.On the contrary, common sense dictates that one wouldn't go to the expense of a reinforced concrete wall without a good reason, such as a retaining wall. The point is here that advice was given without asking whether the wall was damp or saying "if the wall is damp, then...."
Can mesh be left off and still get a decent bond? Sure. Mesh is used to get a BETTER bond, and add more stregnth to the stucco surface.No, mesh should be added to stucco to give the stucco layer structural integrity because the substrate is weak, eg. over crumbling brickwork, and where mesh is used the stucco should be isolated from the substrate with building paper, felt, etc.A properly prepared concrete surface will provide the necessary bond for stucco and adding mesh will actually give a worse bond because its presence will prevent the stucco in some areas from reaching the concrete surface and if the wall is damp there is a danger of the mesh rusting where it is nailed to the concrete.On the question of furring and cladding, Dick has covered this far better than I could.
The advice given by Draganic was a) A good bond to the concrete is impossible to obtain if the wall is dirty, etc.That's wrong
b) The wall could be furred out with timber and cladThat advice should have been modified by asking if the wall was damp, or pointing out the dangers if it was damp. Neither was done.I'm not interested in personalities here, just in the bad advice that was given. If you want to go ahead and try to defend the indefensible because Draganic is your friend then I admire your loyalty but I question your judgement.
Edited 4/6/2002 5:04:37 PM ET by IanG
Stucco sure is a sensitive godforsaken topic around here. I saw a guy in Brazil slathering stucco on a wall, he didn't seem to care that it was 100 degrees and sunny, and I didn't see any mesh. Just sloppin' it on.
Maybe we should ask him if he gives a rat's ass about it?
This topic could be the new venting thread fight site for the new board.
YeeeeeHaaaa!Mad Dog
Mad Dog - Did you know that in Brasil they also manufacture expanded clay pellets for lightweight concrete aggregate since many rural areas in particular find it difficult to get crushed stone?
T. Jeffery Clarke
Quidvis Recte Factum Quamvis Humile Praeclarum
Edited 4/7/2002 1:02:25 AM ET by Jeff Clarke
No Jeff, I didn't know that. I'm very interested in their construction methods, all that stone, stucco, tile does make me jealous. Tell more?
Ian,
You just don't get it. All the explanations and conversations in the world ain't gonna help ya get it either.
Ya want to attack Pete cause you don't like him - that's your problem. Just accept the fact that we do things differently than each other all the time. Pete gave good advice, and you give good advice too. If both peices of advice don't agree with each other, take a minute to think and analyze BEFORE you start blasting. I'd be willing to bet that neither way is a bad way, just different. You don't seem to like different very much. And as for Dick, I blocked that sucker the first day here, so I do not see anything Dick posts (as well as LOTS of others for that matter). That ignore button is a blessing!
What do YOU think? You're right and we're all wrong? Or maybe we're all a little different, and still manage to get good results?
And you are right, the mesh makes the finished stucco stronger. This makes the stucco finish last longer, and helps prevent cracking in the stucco coats. And pay attention to the fact that I said HELPS, not PREVENTS ALTOGETHER. Every little bit helps. James DuHamel
J & M Home Maintenance Service
"Southeast Texas"
Hi James!
Dang it Pete,
Sometimes you make a lot of sense!
I'd be happy to have you stucco any of three different projects I have coming up...all the subs here use mesh of one type or another. And that goes for cultured stonework too.
Saude',
What small island are toy talking about?
ahem..
My concrete walls were covered in TAR, which i sandblasted off with two 20 gal. compressors ganged together. I parged the walls with my less-than-ideal mortar mix, and seven years later, the elements of MT have not managed to peel it off, nor does it show more than the hairline drying cracks. you'll never get it clean enough to have a permanent, lasting, worthy bond. Clean it well and then fix wire mesh to it.
Pete, you say the wall can't be cleaned well enough to bond the finish, and then you say directly under that comment to "clean it". Why? In all the apps i've seen, in fact, expanded metal lath is isolated from the substrate with felt, though i would be convinced with a link or a pic otherwise. Also, my concrete foundation was so old and hard that it laughed--laughed, i tell you!--at my ramset with yellow loads. Tapcons, you say? <wide eyes, wider pocketbook>
Also, despite what you may think, this does not constitute satellite dish installation and you collect no fees.
Faraday on my mind...
splinter
Hey Splints....who's house....and what's the warrenty yer company offered.....Oh...that's right....you work on your own house. Hey Heloise...keep the DIT tips a comming! When ya wanna start a real contracting business.....I hear there's plenty of help over in the business folders!
But I'm sure you got all those answers too. Love ya, Jeff * Jeff J. Buck/ Buck Construction/ Pittsburgh, PA *
2nd Generation Buck Const, 3rd generation Craftsman
Real contracting business? You talk a lot lately about "adding numbers" as though doing an estimate were an occupation, but if you were any good, you'd be turning down work instead of collecting the dole. Have any more of my heroes offered charity work to the serially unemployed? Or is rinsing poopy diapers your top speed these days?
Heloise? Try "Thelma and Louise", sweetheart.
Now, get off your butt and post some pics of your latest stucco job (with mesh). It would be nice if it featured work in progress, not just a drive-by.
Over-employed and needing an island vacation to go parge something for fun,
splintergroupie
James,
The advice given by Pete was
a) A good bond to the concrete is impossible to obtain if the wall is dirty, etc.
That's wrong
b) The wall could be furred out with timber and clad
That advice should have been modified by asking if the wall was damp, or pointing out the dangers if it was damp. Neither was done.
Since this paragraph summarises what I disagree with, perhaps you can comment on that, instead of ranting on about personal attacks.
Pete
I gave in my post four different ways to prepare the concrete to receive stucco, depending on the degree of contamination of the surface.