I am residing my 90-year old house with white cedar shingles that are pre-stained on all sides with two coats of Cabot solid stain and I’m trying to understand what I should place between the sheathing and the shingles.
When I pulled off the original shingles I found 4 layers of paper – two slick black layers and two pinkish-red layers. The order is:
sheathing, pink paper, black paper, pink, black, shingles.
There is no lath; the shingles are right against the black paper.
There is no evidence of water damage to the sheathing, but there are countless layers of paint on the shingles too (which may have helped prevent water penetration).
Questions:
Can I just replicate the original builder’s system or do I really need to consider lath (undesirable because of the trim) or ‘Home Slicker’?
What is the black paper (#15 felt?)?
What is the pinkish-red paper and what is its purpose?
Thank you very much for any advice you can offer!
David Andersen in Cedar Rapids, IA
Replies
If it were mine under those circumstances I'd put back 30# felt, or 2 layers of 15. The pink was red rosin paper (avoid).
T. Jeffery Clarke
Jeff, why avoid the red rosin?
I've been reading lots of old posts on the felt/red rosin/housewrap debate and there is no consensus, but many people have pointed out that the red rosin absorbs and disperses water so that it evaporates faster.
It's interesting that the original builder used 4 layers of felt and red rosin. It seems to have worked well and I'm inclined, in the face of the evidence, to repeat it.
The only other factor is that I've started insulating interior walls (fiberglass batt) where before there was none. I'm wondering if this too will make a difference.
Thanks,
David
you don't have a very wet climate.. so the traditional 15# felt that you uncovered has worked just fine
the red rosin paper also worked ok... the 15# is better..
you can leave those layers there or strip them off.. if you strip, i'd use one layer of 15# felt.. you can do this in small sections or a whole side at a time
the factory dipped / finished shingles are an excellent choice..go get 'em
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks Mike. Any idea why the original builder used 2 layers of red rosin and 2 layers of felt?
David
david .... could be wrong.. but the original builder probably didn't..
more likely the successive siding guys left the previous layers in place and added to them where there were holes..
ie: do you think your siding is the original ?
or has it been replaced 2 or 3 times ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I don't really know if the cedar siding is original, but that's my guess given the many, many layers of paint. If the current siding is not original, I still can't imagine that there have been 4 different claddings (one for each layer of paper).
I'm not sure there is a way to determine this. The historical records we have do not reveal this information. You're point is well taken, however, that there could have been more than one installation of siding.
Edited 9/7/2004 7:29 pm ET by davidbear351
My first thought was like Mike, that it had been done twice and that accounts for extra layers, but much of the tarpaper comes off when remioving siding anuyway, depending how you go about it, and I have replaced cedar siding that had ninety to a hundred years on it.
Are you in a windy climate? The original builder might have been trying to use the plys as an insulation factor.
I would use 15# tarpaper as you redo this. 30# is too heavy and will wrinkle and buckle, making it hard to install the new cedars.
No reason to avoid the pink resin paper either. I have seen it under more old jobs than tarpaper, and those houses never suffered for it. Purpose? I wasn't around back then, but I would assume it was an infiltration barrier.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
because right after he did his standard one layer of each ...
he got a message on the stone tablets they used back then instead of cell phones that there were leaks on the last house he just finished ...
so ...
like any good builder ...
he doubled up!
I'm thinking the extra layers add the critical "crinkle" factor .... makes for enough "unflatness" to provide enough airflow ... which allows for the needed drying under there ...
probably just something they came up with over time ... trial and error.
wonder if between the two papers ... one stretched and one expanded or wrinkled as they absorbed moisture ... then dried ... hence ... the crinkle factor.
Jeff
ok ... just reread my last sentence ... sounds logical ... I'm sticking to it!Buck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
What about that new plastic mesh stuff under them? (like course plastic steel wool)--it's supposed to allow them to breathe and dry out between wettings.
CALLED RAINSLICKER
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Aha, thanks again for the info (wasn't it you who told me about Abatron?). Does Rainslicker work? Seems like it would be good.
I am using cedar breather on the roof..is that what ya meant?
I don't think it is needed on walls in the midwest, but in a coastal climate I could justify it.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Yup, breather is what I meant and I guess it is used mostly under roof shingles and not on walls. Gee, the Tavern folks should see this--I finally admit a mistake! ;-)
I think the company that makes it is some strange name like Obke Konokye. They make both products, one for roofs and one for siding.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Benjamin Obdyke Corp. Horsham Pa. They pretty much cornered the market on Brn/Wht alum coil stock, and drip edge/fascia...Obdyke Brn. is industry standard.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
OK, You can spell it, now pronounce it so I can remember it!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
old joke..
xylophone...can ya spell it?
numbnuts starts out.....z-i-l-o-f-....
" nah, ya idgit"
" I-T..." ta dum...
obdyke is ...."OB" like ODD, "dyke" like...
rugmuncher...got it?
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
OK, I've got a memnomic now,
It's a female OB coming out of the delivery room and declaring she is going to become a Dyke to avoid what she just saw.
OB dyke
ta dum!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
In theory, yes. Ask me again in fourty years.
;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I thought the purpose of red Rosin Paper was to provide a more slippery surface that allows woods to expand and contract, and not intended as a substitute for black felt.
Isn't that why you will often find it under old wood floors?
That is why it's used under wood flooring, but there are other uses. it is a slip sheet where you don't want things sticking together or a separation ply when you need to separate materials subject to eletolitic corrosion.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
you just made that up , didn't you ?
the eletolitic corrosion bit , i meanMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I was wondering what he meant too...... electrolytic?
no. WE had a discussion a while back about why it was used under copper sheet roofing. I can remember on Govt buildings that the resin ply was part of the specs on many roofs. Then somebody - maybe Green CU said that it was required for separating the copper roofing or copper flashings from the steel nails in the sheathing to prevent that reaction. What's the name for it? Electrolosis? galvanistorectomy? I don't know, you sure it isn't electrolitic?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Most commonly referred to as a "dielectric" or "electrogalvanic" reaction.
You're right, though...simply the electrolytic reaction between two disimilar metals when water is present.
In this case, the noble metal, copper, trashes the steel. Same idea as an anode rod in a water heater, there the steel casing of the heater causes the magnesium rod to be sacrificed.
Edit: spelink
Edited 9/8/2004 9:03 am ET by Mongo
Thanks everyone for the helpful information. I can't imagine how I would have figured this out before the internet. This is a great forum.
I do not like the rosin because the old structures I have torn into with rosin have had more water damage than old structures with feltpaper. My own home has some of each, and the rosin sections are in worse shape from soak through. Also, the rosin appears to deteriorate over time, where the feltpaper is still in good shape after 100 years. Both are cheap enough. I do not see the advantage of rosin.
I too would take felt over resin but I was respionding to what I perceived as a statement that the resin opaper would do harm. In fact, it simply does less good than the tarpaper does without doing harm.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!