Replies

1. 
   Brad_Buddenberg | Jun 29, 2000 06:07am | #20

   *
   French, I live in West Virginia. We do get all of the great weather(cold, wet winters and hot humid summers) that comes with living in the southeast. The reason I recommended it was because the company that I work for used it on all of the exteriors of their cedar sided and oak timber framed buildings. I have been impressed with its performance so far. It is going on 5 years now and it is still holding up strong. They plan to recoat next year. The name of the stuff is actually Penofin,far from what I tried to spell this morning. Good Luck I hope this helps.

2. 
   Guest_ | Jun 29, 2000 04:48pm | #21

   *
   Or use brown treatment on that walnut-might look good!

1. 
   Guest_ | Jun 29, 2000 08:02pm | #22

   *The vacuum idea isn't crazy; there's a guy near Budd Lake NJ from whom I used to buy oak. He had what he said was a vacuum kiln, and it would take a load of 4/4 and 5/4 oak, perhaps 1500 BF, from green to dry in about ten days. I'm sorry that I can't remember his name.FWIW, I used Penofin on my front door about a year ago, 4 or 5 wiped-on coats. As yet, it looks like I finished it yesterday. The only thing about Penofin is that it will bleed back out of ring pourous woods such as the oak of my door. You need to wipe it down several times over the course of a day, or else the bleed will make the semi-set finish tacky. Shouldn't be a problem with walnut, though.Now, I'm going back to Breaktime with the other stud bangers.Andy

1. 
   Guest_ | Jun 30, 2000 04:12pm | #23

   *Andy, If you can remember the guys name,I'd be interested in talking to him. I called the local place that does Railraod timbers and they said they couldn't. Apparently they are fully booked, (and they really didn't seem all that interested in doing it. they weren't sure they would fit in their chamber, they had never done black walnut and wouldn't promise anything....Don't you just hate self important secratary's that won't let you speak to the boss?)

3. 
   Guest_ | Jun 30, 2000 04:12pm | #24

   *
   Finally, after years of fighting with the city council / planning commision / staff, I got my permit. The only trouble is, they gave in too easy. I had actually expected at least another year of B.S. before they gave in. Now I'm darn sure not going to look a gift horse in the mouth, but... Some of the Black Walnut timbers will be less than a year old when they have to go up. Since they will be outside, I had planned on painting the back and ends before I installed them, now I'm not so sure.Will I just be sealing the moisture in? Now my moisture meter tells me that I'm down to 12% moisture but that's only the outside. I'm sure that if I measured the center it's got to be green, isn't the formula about one inch per year? Those 8"x8" have to be at least 25% inside, don't they? Now I know the old barns etc. were built green and they wound up just fine, but they weren't painted rightaway. If you paint timbers while they are green won't you just seal in moisture? One thought is to paint the back ends and sides and let the face dry out. Then come back after 8 years and paint the face. ( not that it's all that appealing to be climbing on a 30 ft. ladder at age 60 and painting ) What have you found to be the best, most durable paint out there? Is there any varnish/polyurethane/etc. that doesn't need frequent touch ups?

1. 
   Guest_ | Jun 27, 2000 02:51pm | #1

   *Frenchy,Lets back up the horse here a minute if you don't mind and tell me why you would be using black walnut for timbers? Is black walnut a utility wood where you live? Seing that you want to paint it anyways is there not a cheaper wood?Just seems like an awful waste to use any type of walnut instead of the cheaper utility woods in the market place.By the way, painting green lumber or sealing lumber would be a very temporary thing, HOWEVER, there are alternatives.Some exterior finishes do allow the moisture to escape. My personal recommendation would be not to paint but preserve.You may want to only use a fungicide preservative on the back and bottoms.Gabe

1. 
   Guest_ | Jun 27, 2000 04:42pm | #2

   *Frenchy,You really just post this stuff to piss us off, right?I know, you've got a large supply of great hardwood and you don't know anything better to do with it so you have to use 22" burl oak for flooring and black walnut for timbers, but do you always have to rub our noses in it?As far as the walnut timbers go, what is their purpose? Are you just worried about temporary exposure during construction, or are you really planning to use these in an exterior application? If so, you won't have 8 years of life in it to wait for.And nobody, ever, paints black walnut, because1. It is too beautiful in stain grade to allow this.2. It is a stain source. You would have avery difficult time stain-blocking it.3. Every woodworker in your area would use you as an example.But, it's your wood. Go ahead and waste it if you want.

1. 
   Guest_ | Jun 27, 2000 06:37pm | #3

   *These are just cries for help, aren't they? Bear in mind: walnut is known as a slow drying wood. One year for long 8 x 8's is nothing. Also, the heartwood is fairly resistant to decay, the sapwood is definitely not. There are very good reasons it is never used in exterior applications.

1. 
   Guest_ | Jun 28, 2000 04:20am | #4

   *Adrian, I'm sorry, I realize that this seems to go against the grain, but there is very good reason to use black walnut on the outside. As you know it is decay resistant (heartwood). I pay less for blackwalnut at the local sawmill then pine. It is straight grain and usually totally free of knots. With the building boom that is going on the demand for pine has it's price too high for my taste (and pocketbook). So believe it or not, blackwalnut is practical! Please think how much demand has there been lately for blackwalnut? If you check the spot market, stumpage prices are at an alltime low. While some hardwood stores are still asking a good price that has more to do with historic price levels then what it costs currently. I'm not greedy, let me know if you want any and I'll be glad to share the wealth. ....Now, do you know of any durable varnish that will stand up to our Minnesota winters and summers? or should I just resign myself to painting it?

2. 
   Guest_ | Jun 28, 2000 04:38am | #5

   *Gabe, wierd as it seems, black walnut is a "utility wood" at least the price is. Currently pine is selling for 2 to 3 times the price. evan cheap ol' poplar is twice as expensive. Some of the stuff I get is down around 17 cents a bd. ft. (the hearts) This stuff is going on the outside of my house, exposed to the winters -65 and summers 100+ with 100% humidity. I would love to show off this stuff but I'll be darned if I'll scrape and repaint every year or two to do it. If anyone has experiance with a polyeruthane or varnish that will allow me to do it please tell me, otherwise I'll have to plan on paint. Gabe you said some finishes allow moisture to escape. which ones? how durable are they?

3. 
   Guest_ | Jun 28, 2000 04:59am | #6

   *Mad Dog, No sir, I'm not trying to piss off anyone, or show off. I got a cheaper price for Black walnut then anything else. The sawmill had them, they were going to the pallet mill and I felt that would be too much of a waste. Pallet mills at that time paid 17 cents bd. ft. for hard wood. period. when the mill has a bunch of wood standing around with no customers that's where it goes. oak, maple, black walnut, ash, hickory, whatever. I paid 17 cents a bd. ft. for blackwalnut hearts. I've checked, I can't buy sheet rock that cheap. If you want, I'll sell you some or call the mill. (I think they will have a good price on some tamerack.) Now can you help me please? what about a durable varnish or polyurethane that will stand up to our Minnesota winters. Am I right, will it take 8 years for those 8"x8"x13' black walnut timbers to dry completely? what's going to happen if I seal them with paint or varnish before then?

4. 
   Guest_ | Jun 28, 2000 05:31am | #7

   *Black walnut-pallet wood? There's more to this story, I know it. At least I think there must be. C'mon, what is the missing information. For some reason this isn't cabinet grade, what's the reason?Frenchy, you keep demanding an answer to a question that is obviously not part of anyone's experiance here. Best finish for exterior grade black walnut? Why not wrap it in aluminum coil stock, or cover it with vinyl? Wrap it with Tyvek and cover with Dri-vit. The sky's the limit.Think I'll start checking with the local pallet mill....John

5. 
   Guest_ | Jun 28, 2000 01:36pm | #8

   *FWIW, the only varnish you CAN use outside is spar varnish; oil based stuff, though there seems to be some waterbased stuff on the market, I wouldn't trust it. Go to a marine supply house, see what the boatbuilders are using, buy that. The good stuff costs.

6. 
   Brad_Buddenberg | Jun 28, 2000 02:29pm | #9

   *Frenchy I would check this stuff called Penathol (not sure of the spelling)this exterior preservative is superior. It last about 8 years before you have to recoat. We use it on our western cedar sided house. I think its made by Pittsburg Paint.

7. 
   Guest_ | Jun 28, 2000 03:13pm | #10

   *Frenchy,Fair enough. I wish I could help you, but Adrian's right--It's a slow drying wood, and you're going to have to deal with that. Spar varnish that is exposed to UV rays and water will have to be refinished every 3-7 years, depending on conditions, quality, etc.Maybe you'd consider it a labor of love, like boat people do?BTW, where in Minnesota are you? I could trade you some PT or other stuff if you'd like...MD

8. 
   Guest_ | Jun 29, 2000 12:52am | #11

   *Adrain, In my foolish youth I had Mahogany boats and spent hours and hours every winter renewing the varnish on them. Spar varnish was good for about 6 mo. before the U.V. light / humidity started to make them look tacky. I finally found a product called Epifanes that if you followed the directions perfectly, put all 12 to 14 coats on in the right tempurature was good for a couple of years. but... would you feel good on a 30 ft. ladder every couple of years scrapeing and revarnishing a house? Please let there be something else. I agree with you guys, covering up black walnut with paint seems wrong.

9. 
   Guest_ | Jun 29, 2000 01:03am | #12

   *Mad dog, What will happen if I try to paint/ varnish green black walnut? will I condemn myself forever more to frequent repaintings? will it eventually dry enough to have a paint/varnish job last a decent time? I remember as a kid some of the houses built right after the war (WW11) were built with pretty green wood and they seemed to have to be painted every couple of years or look like hell. Maybe the paint nowdays is better?BTW I'm on Lake Minnetonka just west of Minneapolis

10. 
    Guest_ | Jun 29, 2000 01:18am | #13

    *Brad, Nearby are two homes painted with that stuff. One is about ten years old and you can see every spot that was exposed to heavy rainfall and exactly where the sprinklers hit the house. that part is black and has been so for a few years now. Three houses from me, they don't have that problem 'cause about 4 years ago they used a green stain to cover everything up. I agree it sure looked good while it lasted but it seems that around here it's a 5 year product. (IMHO)Where do you live? does it get our cold winters? or is it our humid summers that seems to shorten it's life here? I don't know, maybe they didn't use enough or something. 8 years seems like a reasonable time, I guess I'd be happy with that, 5 years doesn't seem enough. Does anyone else have experiance with this?

11. 
    Guest_ | Jun 29, 2000 01:37am | #14

    *JRS, Look closly at a few GMA pallets, you'll be surprised at the quailty of wood they use to make those things. when I used them to heat my home (in my youth while I went to college I took a few apart and made some semi-decent stuff out of them, I just filled the old nail holes up with wooden matches)When you check with the local pallet mill ask them where they get their wood from. That's how I found the source for my wood. Just so you understand, a 7"x9"x8'6" industrial grade railroad timber costs $7.60 locally currently and has to be straight grain white oak. (before pressure treatment) anything with flaws in it gets downgraded to utility grade and it's $.50 ( used for boiler fuel). when I was in the Phillipines, I was disgusted to see perfect mahogany boards used as concrete forms, survey stakes and other such mundane uses. I know that a GMA pallet has to be made of certain select hardwoods, and there is a very small tolerance for knots, wane, bark, etc. If you're paying store prices for a few feet of nice black walnut/ oak/ cherry etc. these prices seem to be ridiculous. Please remember this is green rough sawn at the mill. No middle man, no frieght, no handleing to sticker them up and dry them in a kiln,no stacking in a warehouse with attending inventory costs, no store to pay for or staff to hire. In other words, the only way to get it cheaper is to cut it down yourself. ( some do and laugh at how much I pay for what they can get for a few gallons of gas and some effort)

12. 
    Guest_ | Jun 29, 2000 01:48am | #15

    *Brad, you mean "Penofin" ?

13. 
    Guest_ | Jun 29, 2000 02:08am | #16

    *Jim L what experiance have you had with it? how durable?

14. 
    Guest_ | Jun 29, 2000 04:00am | #17

    *Hey Frenchy,I was thinking about your problem. What if you had it kiln dried or built a solar kiln and dried it yourself? That would be a good start.MD

15. 
    Guest_ | Jun 29, 2000 04:29am | #18

    *Mad Dog, I tried to find a kiln that would handle the oak timbers, because they are so thick it would take too long to dry them, at least according to the 6 kilns I asked . Most wouldn't do it and the one that said he would consider it never called me back. According to the guy from the University of Wisconsin ( who was responsible for the wood for the U.S.S. Constitution) what he did was to sink the timbers on the bottom of the ocean for 7 years and let the pressure at that depth force the moisture out and replace it with sea water. they were then pulled up and air dried for a while. apparently the whole process took about 10 years. Anyway.. There is an outfit in West Virginia that has a Large Microwave and they can do it over night. (I swear I'm not making this up) the only problem is that to restraighten them out they lose about an inch or so in thickness and width. Some apparently warp so bad as to be unuseable. I guess it's easier with soft woods then hardwoods to kiln dry. One mill in Northern Minnesota could put pine 2"x4"s in the kiln and have them down to 10% moisture in 4 days. but most kilns I talked to said most hard woods took 30 days to dry 4/4 (1 inch thick) and 45 days for 5/4 to dry to 8% moisture. Since the same guy owns the local kiln that sold me the timbers I figure he knows what he's talking about.

16. 
    Guest_ | Jun 29, 2000 05:14am | #19

    *This may be a stretch (or a figment of my imagination) but... how much moisture do you think could be removed from wood using the vacuum drawdown of a pressure treating plant? The process of pressure treating lumber is to apply vacuum, then pressure with chemicals and then vacumm again to recover unused solution and dry the wood. Admittedly, the PT straight from the plant feels like it's been underwater for a couple of years but if you skipped the pressure portion of the process could you, at least theoretically, pull enough moisture from the wood, in a short period of time, to make a difference?