I am a firm believer that if a builder can’t do a quote accurately he is not the one to do your job.
If you are working on project management basis… are you still working with lowballs?
The Europeans are astonished with how little power the American Carbuilders can get from their big cubes… and how little mileage. Does this have something to do with our mindsets–sort of a predetermined belief that we must put every aspect out to tender and only consider the lowest bid?
From Engineers, Designers, to part suppliers… all low bid. Do you think this had something to do with 2 of the big 3 failing?
When you build your own home–is it all low bid subs?
L
GardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it! Decks Blog
Replies
Dont we send space ships up with the lowest bid????;]
Thats how we fix our roads...........year after year.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
lol How true my friend is a Highway engineer and was telling me of the miles upon miles of roads that need to be redone just a few years after being built because there was not enough slope to them.
Ahuh--
And two blew up right?
LGardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it! Decks Blog
I spent 23 years working for the electircal wiring division of GM (since spun off as a part of Delphi).
I saw lots of cases where our technology was amazing, compared to anyone else's. And I saw lots of cases where the opposite was true.
More disturbing was the political-style culture within the company. Tons of huge-dollar decisions were not made based on what was best for the long-term profit/competitiveness of the company.
Example...... From our Ohio location, we sent truckloads of stuff (daily) to our Mississippi location. The trucking company was local to the Miss. location, until one of the managers in the Ohio location said that he could get it done "cheaper". To me, his plan seemed mostly to be "empire building" -- he wanted his department to grow, so he thought he would take over the trucking.
And he "proved" how cheaply he could do it by running a pilot program -- one truck, making one trip, one way. As a result, there were HUGE costs that were not comprehended by the pilot program.
But he presented his papers, and "won" the business. And his little corner of the empire got bigger, an he thought himself a hero.
Even though the new method was much more expensive, and fraught with problems.
Cutting corners... sending jobs to countries that utilize slave labor...That's the fastest method to a better standard of living for all of us right?
I want to do brakes every 20,000 miles... I want my new dodge to burst into flames in the parking lot after getting it's first service... I want broken manifolds every 35,000 miles and I want to change head lights and washer fluid pumps at every oil change....Oh, and it would be really cool to have to change every oil seal just outside warranty.
Sitting in my Toyota--who's frame comes from Japan where they don't use slave labor and was assembled in California, (here's a hint--china makes most of the GM heavy parts), thinking that I have about 90,000 miles on it now... I guess I should tune it up and maybe get the brakes checked...
I lived through the 80's, 90's and watched them peddle their junk.
I remember my Ford Salesman... he told me I didn't want to buy a new truck there. He said after the first 2 years it was going to cost me 5-7k per year just to maintain it... that was 1998. Standard knowledge as far as he was concerned.
I went to the Dodge dealer and asked for a pickup that gets about 30 mpg.... they laughed me out of the showroom... The salesman just turned around and walked away.
Gee... I wonder why they are all having a tough go of it now.
Low bid is no way to build cars.
LGardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it! Decks Blog
From the points you're trying to make, you believe that "low bidding/cost cutting" is the root of all problems at the Big 3? Wow, I guess if they start paying their suppliers 10x what they pay today, they'll be back in business?? And no customer would mind the added cost passed on to them?
First I'll address your Big 3 bashing... 1. Your Ford dealer (in 1998), telling you $5-7K of yearly upkeep? Sure thing. What are you doing, replacing your powertrain every year? That's just plain stupid, so either you're embellishing your experience, or the salesperson had an axe to grind and was soon to join the ranks of the unemployed. 2. 30MPG pickup?? Okay, which foreign-made pickup is getting this? Oh, your Toyota, I'm sure.
The problems at the Big 3 are multi-faceted, and you're WAY oversimplifying it. It's not due to "low balling". It's due to extremely poor management over the years. (Examples: Bob Eaton, who sold out Chrysler as a "merger of equals" to the tune of $100M+ flowing into his bank account. Jacques Nassar at Ford who decided that any incompetent that was from a "diverse" background was to be fast-tracked up the management chain, etc.) It's due to high labor costs ("high" UAW wages/benefits and the pension costs the companies carry). It's due to bad execution of designs and not following sound design/engineering practices. It's due to foreign trade practices that are not favorable to the US companies. I could go on and on. Basically though, the easiest thing to attribute it to is poor management, since good management would figure out a way to address/get around the other issues.
Oh, and I'm not even touching the problem every publicly-traded American company faces... selling your soul for Wall Street to love you. Too many companies mortgage their futures in order to show Wall Street what they want to see. Forget tomorrow, we made a "profit" (or cooked the books to make it look that way) today. The best way for a company to thrive is to be a private company, with investors that understand the business they're invested in. Once companies are run by bean counters that don't know or care to know the business... it's only a matter of time. That's one reason America is losing it's industrial base. Most bean counters don't understand engineering and manufacturing, nor do they want to.
As for the use of a foreign supply base... sometimes it's cheaper, sometimes not. Actually, I've witnessed a few cases where the foreign suppliers were both cheaper AND better. I HATE to admit that, because I really want domestic suppliers to survive and thrive... But, like anything, good luck finding an "all-American" supplier. Virtually every supplier relies on having some of its manufacturing in "low-cost countries".
My final thought before I'm silent on this for the rest of time... you must not have noticed that Ford's initial quality numbers exceed Honda and tie Toyota? Keep building that shrine for the imports...
"Wow, I guess if they start paying their suppliers 10x what they pay today, they'll be back in business?? And no customer would mind the added cost passed on to them?"
Rusty-- I didn't say anything like that. My point is we should be making it better--not cheaper.
Better design, better value=success.
Like us building with 2x10 joists on 16's...when most others are using 2x8 and Homer Depot telling everyone they need 2x6 on 24" centers--regardless of what code or common sense says.
I drive an 05 Tacoma Pre-runner that gets 28-29 mpg... 4 door, 2 wd, v6, 245hp and about 3400lbs. It also does 0-60 in 6 seconds flat... Their 4 banger version supposedly gets 37 mpg and it has about 180 hp. Plenty for hauling a half ton of lumber on a flat trailer.
Never mind that... the little 5 cylinder chev is lucky to get 23 mpg and the dodge dakota is forunate to get 18. They both likely weigh more than my truck. Why? I very much want to buy American, and likely will even though I know it may cost me double when fuel and repairs are factored in.
The 5-7k in maintenance is in Canadian Dollars back then... remember everything including vehicles is +40-60% your money... all relative. Here we would easily pay 5k just for the electronic transmission in that 2000 ford truck... and front brakes that did last 25,000 miles (with rotors...since they always needed them) would run about $600. I went through 6 washer pumps, 3 manifolds, 4 or 5 brake jobs, rear main seal, 3 sets of tires and a few other stupid electronic sensors on that truck in 3 years... about 110,000 miles. His estimation was likely accurate.
Yes... public companies and even our traditional financial system is set up to promote greed and efficiency at the cost of creativity--they simply don't understand anyone trying to build something of value.
"Exit Strategy"
"Maximizing Profit"
"Maximized Short Term Returns"
That is where the issue lies.
You and I both know that if a business attempts to change or build by reinvesting--the first thing that happens is when returns drop they get crushed if they are public, and if they are private their financing gets cut.
If a company does not make more year over year... they are a bad risk. (standard bank advice to any small business regarding financing).
YOu are right--The odds are stacked against any company that wants to build anything better.
LGardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it! Decks Blog
"I drive an 05 Tacoma Pre-runner that gets 28-29 mpg... 4 door, 2 wd, v6, 245hp and about 3400lbs. It also does 0-60 in 6 seconds flat..." I love comedy and that's a riot! That's up there with my friend who's 340 hp Volvo gets 40 mpg or my customer who's 4 door Accord gets 44. My wife's little Highlander gets about 24 on the highway. The EPA says your truck gets a combined mileage of 18 mlg for a stick or 16 for an automatic so yours is a miracle truck.
That's nothing--my Accord can get well over forty mpg while accelerating 0-60 in 6 seconds, if I drive it off a cliff. The sudden deceleration at the bottom sets off the airbags though, and that can get expensive.
I could get over 90 mpg in my Town and Country minivan going downhill with my foot off the gas and a good tailwind. So based on that metric I suppose it would be honest to say I got 90 mpg in my van.
"Oh, and I'm not even touching the problem every publicly-traded American company faces... selling your soul for Wall Street to love you."
I think that is the core issue. Notice that Ford, who is the lest endeared to Wall Street, is the only one not looking for a handout?
Lawrence is certainly oversimplifying the big three problems.
The other big problem could get worse under the new socialist regime: unions.
I sure am Blue! More interested in cocepts. We need better mousetraps. I say bring in TaTa cars to compete...that will cause dramatic changes in the auto marketplace.
Besides...with the way the phone rings here, I need to keep it light.
We've heard plenty blamed on the unions... there are pro's and cons. they may have gotten too far out of control.
L
GardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it! Decks Blog
Edited 5/11/2009 11:29 am ET by Lawrence
I think we have discovered the answer to your thread question.
We've learned nothing.
What a brilliant summation Blue!
LGardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it! Decks Blog
Interesting thing that happened when Alan Mulally took the helm... I give the guy credit for realizing that a lack of cash on-hand will put you under, no matter what's coming in the future (with respect to future earnings). Kinda like knowing you have an inheritence coming in a year, but you cannot get the money you need to pay your mortgage or CC bills due now.
So, Mulally got $23B from private investors while people were still willing to put their money into a car company... late 2006/early 2007. Think he could get that now, or anytime from mid to late last year?? No way...
Interesting article here: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124199912671905001.html
Sickening thing is that by Ford staying afloat, it may suffer later (what the article discusses, "While General Motors and Chrysler will emerge from the government restructuring wringer with significantly reduced debt, Ford will still likely be obliged to repay its lenders. This could put Ford at a competitive disadvantage.") Kinda like when all the people in your neighborhood let themselves be foreclosed upon while you struggle to make every payment. Then one day you wake up and realize you're the idiot for "doing the right thing."
In the 70's I was looking to buy my fist car and found a Plymouth TC-3 with a 2.2 liter engine for $6000 (new--payments were $145/mo and I was afraid I wouldn't be able to make them!). After I saw that car at one dealer in Bay City, I went to a bigger dealer in Saginaw and asked if they had any 2.2 liter TC-3s, as all I saw were 1.7 (that was another thing; I walked all over that lot, ready to buy and I couldn't get a salesman to get his fat arse out of the showroom to talk to me). The salesman asked where I found a 2.2 and I told him and he asked me for how much and I told him that. Then he told me I'd better got back up to Bay City and buy it there because his dealer didn't have any, wouldn't order any and if they did it wouldn't be at that price! Not exactly eager to make a sale.
Then after I talked about the deal with the salesman in Bay City, I went into the manager's office to sign the papers and the price went up to about $180/mo. I asked him what happened to the $145 and he said, "Who told you that price!" I started to walk out and he said, "Well, you want the insurance and the...." and kept adding all sort of stuff on that I didn't want. Finally got it down to the $145 and I got it. All I'm saying is that the dealers pretty much figured the public would sit still for anything and when the Japanese and Germans came in and started offering better cars for less money, the American dealers were like all offended! Just like Ma Bell when she no longer had a monopoly and then it was tears and what about customer loyalty and how could you leave me! American companies got what the deserved.
The concern for me is that what the US was once known for... changed.
Remember... "Quality is Job 1". When they were trying to pitch that sale in the 90's it couldn't have been farther from the truth.
Nobody uses the yellow pages anymore...however folks are still investing in them--I found mine the other day, from last year... still in the plastic.
I threw out a 3 year old set of stacking whirlpool duets and absolutely everything on them was broken. Controls, brain, bearings, even the knobs were broken in just 3 years. (Whirpool Duet)... I put them up for sale for parts but after 2 weeks...no takers. It is either the land fill this week... or I'll be dropping them off at head office in Mississauga. It is just insult to injury that I need to pay to dispose of these lemons as well.
How is Trex still in business... I would estimate 10% of the builders in this forum would use it... we all know it grows mold from within.
Bad products, bad banks, bad businesses need to get buried so that new good businesses can thrive.
LGardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it! Decks Blog
Talk about mold from within--remember when someone came out with a Masonite-type siding that turned out to be an excellent medium for growing mushrooms? Needed a bit more R&D (must have been the same guys who came up with the idea for the "New Coke." That went over well too. Now I see Pepesi has come up with Pepsi retro or some dam thing "made with all natrual sugar!" (I s### you not!)). The public would buy s... on a skewer if you had a catchy jingle for it--tell 'em to buy it through their iPods or Mp-3 players or something. Show a flashy car smashing through a big billboard advertizing it.
Yeah... Back bottom grissle lumps!
LGardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it! Decks Blog
Someone's sold you a bill of goods. I'm not a fan of American cars but I've been driving American trucks for nearly 40 years now and couldn't be happier. I've had Fords, Dodges and now a Chevy. I keep very good records of all repairs and couldn't be happier. I typically drive a truck 150K before I trade it and my maintenance cost usually run me less than $5K per truck. My last Ford van went 185K on just under $3K in repairs exclusive of tires and oil changes.
YOu sir are incredibly lucky, or very easy on vehicles. I overload them, work them and expect them to last 300,000 miles. I resent any vehicle that won't do 50,000 miles before needing a brake job.
Where are you based florida... why do you speak metric?
ps. Miracle Truck... I guess I should look closer, but I can get 650k from a 70 liter tank. I am all highway going from Collingwood to Toronto 2 or 3 times a week. Sure, put my foot in it and I can burn fuel. It is a brilliant truck. I'll miss it when I go back to a Ford.
L
GardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it! Decks Blog
Edited 5/11/2009 9:00 am ET by Lawrence
You might want to check your math:
650km = 406 miles
70l = 18.2 US gallons
406/18.2= 22 mpg and that is assuming you use every drop in the 70l tank.
The according to the Gov. of Canada the 4.0l 6 cyl Tacoma gets the same milage (21 city, 28hwy) as:
Nissan 4.0l V6, Ford/Mazda 4.0l V6, Ford 4.6l V8, Dodge 3.6l V6 and lower milage than the Chev 3.7l I5.
Mine is the 4Liter, the 4 banger is a 2.8 I think.
http://www.onlineconversion.com/fuel_consumption.htm
9.2l/100k by my math.
Says just under 26...
They advertise 28mpg...
I likely average 70mph..
Not bad.
LGardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it! Decks Blog
No, I actually abuse my trucks pretty badly. I'm not a regular maintenance type guy.
I'm in Florida as my name implies but there was no metric in my post. The letter "K" is an abbreviation for thousand.
Why would you go back to a Ford?
Initially my thought was that ford would likely have the cheapest parts... might get burned trying to maintain a car who's parent company went bust...or disappeared shortly after.
Remember Studebaker...
Hudson....
The true shame is that this happens when Dodge and Chev finally build something that looked worth buying!
Challenger... Charger... Camaro...
ohh well.
L
GardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it! Decks Blog
"I'll miss it when I go back to a Ford. "
You may not- Toyota is doing buybacks of Tacomas (95-2000) due to frame rot and there is evidence that the rust/corrosion issue may extend to the newer generation of Tacomas including yours and the first generation Tundra. http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2009/04/toyota-investigating-tundra-pickups-with-rusty-frames.html If it had been Ford, Gm, or Chrysler it would have been front page news .......... not so for Toyota; their koolaid is powerful stuff. And there have been other issues such as the engine sluge problems which took a class action to get Toyota to face up to the issue. http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2007/01/toyota_sludge_settlement.html
And fwiw the truck with the best mpg sold in the US isn't a Toyota- it's the Ford Ranger. "The Europeans are astonished with how little power the American Carbuilders can get from their big cubes" ....... actually they're more astonished how a far less expensive Corvette ZR1 powered by an "antiquated" pushrod motor eats Porches and Ferraris for lunch. Of course we always hear about GM, Ford, and Chrysler having the wrong "business model" but after Toyota's $7.7 billion loss last quarter (and $5 billion the quarter before iirc) do they have the correct "business model"? I'm not anti Toyota; I've owned one and it was a great truck but the fact remains the Big Three have improved by leaps and bounds and are in many respects equal to or superior than their foreign competition. "Lowballs" ........ that could be applied to Toyota as well. My '02 Ranger came standard with four wheel antilock brakes and electronic load proportioning ........ not so with the Tacoma I looked at.
"It is hardly too strong to say that there are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters." -- Noah Webster
Edited 5/11/2009 3:25 pm ET by jc21
I've owned four toyota pickups since 1987. First one, 4wd, bought new in 1987. Put 230,000 miles on it until an underaged driver hi me and totaled it. My third one, bought new in 2000. Had almost 120K miles on it. 4wd, automatic, extra cab, nothing fancy (steel rims, etc.). Had the rust issue with the frame. The truck had some pretty tough use on it, too.Toyota bought it back from me as is for almost $14,500, plus gave me another $1000 to buy a new Tacoma (which I did)!. The truck cost me less than $4000 to own for over 8 years (not counting routine maintenance).When did an American auto company ever buy back a defective vehicle on a mass scale?I'm sold on Toyota trucks - great performance, low cost of ownership, and very dependable.DIA
Well that would be nice... to have it bought back.
I will have to buy it out since I blew the mileage on the lease reaaaaaly badly. I was thinking of souping it up and running it in that east coast rally.
LGardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it! Decks Blog
One disadvantage of those cars that try to squeeze every possible HP out of their engines is that they self destruct when you break a belt.
They came to the conclusion on "Top Gear"... just because you can buy an old used ferrari or lambo for a few grand doesn't mean that you should...
I would still very much like the chance to own a TVR though...any vintage.
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