Replies

1. 
   d_j_k | Dec 30, 2000 09:38pm | #1

   *
   Mike ,

   The key to this question is probably , how often are you going to be in this house?

   Is natural gas available in this area , or would you use LP gas?

   Are you installing air conditioning?

   If you are only using it on weekends , you can turn back the thermostat for during the week. This would work better with FAH. I believe with in-floor radiant, the catch up time is greater and you may need to leave it turned up all the time (in the winter).

   No question that FAH will be a lot cheaper to install
   than In-Floor radiant heat. People who have In-floor radiant heat love it though.

   So answer the questions , and we'll sit back and listen to the experts on this one.

   DJ

   ps: I might be missing something, but I think the duct work should be in the craw space (not the attic). Is this a single or two story?

   Also why not go down an additional 4 feet and put a full basement in? This is very cheap space (unless you are on rock) and will give you room to store all your off-season recreation gear. Plus a place to put the furnace, water heater, etc. Plus it eliminate a lot of vent/pest/etc issues. The additional cost is not very much ( unless you have to blast out rock or something).

1. 
   FredB | Dec 30, 2000 11:31pm | #2

   *Where are you building this palace? Lots of homes aren't even this big so you must be building what is essentially a house that you are only going to use part time.I assume you are going to set up the plumbing so it can be purged and the house allowed to go cold for extended periods. You don't say where this is being built but I assume you have grid power and road access for fuel trucks, etc. That being the case I definitely would use forced air with either oil or gas fuel, depending on what is most common in that area. Forced air will give you fast warm up and comfort without the cold house problems of hot water or radiant.Being in the mountains you probably don't want to pay for the extra excavation for anything more than you absoulutely need. But, think through pretty carefully what you will need when you get old and creaky and want to use the place more. One family I know even went to the trouble of putting in an elevator so they could use the place in their dotage.

1. 
   Mike_Brezden | Dec 31, 2000 03:22am | #3

   *To d j k and FredB:Thanks for the fast response and thoughts. The house is about 60 miles west of Colorado Springs, on the power grid, with good roads. Propane or electric are the only fuels available. The home will be used year round, perhaps even full time, so there are no plans to purge plumbing. We elected to go with the crawl space instead of a full basement because of rock and the high expense of blasting; in fact, our leach field cost $15,000 because of blasting and hauling in sand. No need to air condition in this climate. I think that answers all of your questions. I appreciate your interest and advice. I've had forced air in every place I've ever lived so I thought I'd ask people more knowedgeable than myself if there is a better way to go. Thanks again, Mike.

1. 
   Bob_Walker | Dec 31, 2000 01:39pm | #4

   *FWIW, I grew up and lived most of my life on the east coast where hot water is the system of choice. Have lived the last 14 years in the mid-west where forced air rules. HW is, in my opinion, far better. It's quieter, more comfortable, and more even heat.To some extent it's probably a regional thing, but I suspect FA is is popular because it's cheaper. In my experience, cheaper is seldom better.In my current area, it has become common to use flex duct for many/most/all duct runs from & to the distribution and return plenums. I have read that this is a questionable practice, but don't know that fo sure. One question is the life expectency of flex duct. Also, heat runs in the attic might not be the best approach. First, since hot air rises, if you use high level registers, the heat distribution in the rooms leaves something to be desired. Second, if the registers are placed low, you essentially have a counterflow system, and are fighting the natural bouyancy of hot air. Third, if there's any leakage of the ductwork (and there probably will be unless there's a first class installation), you'll be heating your attic and possibly causing ice damming problems.Baseboard radiators can limit furniture placement, though.Also, you want to be sure you can find someone who can service what you put in.The main question I'd have with HW, though, is possible air quality issues in modern, tight construction. I don't know if this is an issue, just a thought.Consider using electric underfloor radient in the bath's. There's an article on this in the Dec. 2000 "This Old House" mag. (I'm not a big fan of that mag, but it sometimes has some interesting ideas.)

1. 
   Freelance_ | Dec 31, 2000 06:23pm | #5

   *Mike-We live at 8000' in the mtns. of east/central Az. I've lived in Vail, my wife in Breckenridge. Is your house going to be solar-tempered? What type of construction? Have heat-loss calcs been done off the drawings?Any even slightly accurate recommendation will have to come downstream of heat-loss calculations. It's like this, if you were going to be pulling a 5 ton trailer over a pass with 8% grades every day would you pay careful attention to the engine and braking options available on trucks you were considering? How heavy is your houses' trailer, how steep are the grades?In other words, roof r-?, walls r-?, aspect of each exterior wall?, ceiling height?, how much glass?, what type of glass?, floor material behind south-facing glass? how well built (ie. quality of workmanship,) prevailing winds, etcThe goal is to get the consideration beyond mere preference into the realm of hard numbers. How heavy the trailer, how steep the grades, how often over the pass, which truck?

2. 
   Jim_Roberts | Dec 31, 2000 06:50pm | #6

   *If there is no need for air conditioning, this question is a no brainer. Use radiant floor heat with a small propane boiler or a propane water heater (designed for radiant heat). Radiant floor heat is the cadillac of heating systems. It shouldn't even be much more expensive if you don't need a separate duct system for AC (it may even be less expensive). It will certainly be much more comfortable and more economical to operate than forced air.Talk to some plumbers - in our area they are much more knowledgeable and experienced with radiant floor heat than the HVAC people. The most important decision is to find someone with experience. On the other hand the suppliers (like Wirsbo) have design software that make it pretty easy. Do your homework on this one - you have an opportunity to have a much better heating system than forced air with minimal extra expense.As a side note - If a HVAC man mentioned forced air with flexible ductwork in a attic, I couldn't run away from him fast enough (3 bad decisions in one recommendation).

3. 
   d_j_k | Dec 31, 2000 07:11pm | #7

   *Mike,Since you are not putting in air conditioning , this makes the argument for "in-floor radiant heat" more attractive. In areas of the country where you have to put in duct work for "cooling" , "in-floor radiant heat" would be another system , so most people opt to share the duct work for heating and cooling. In your case you could put in "in-floor radiant heat" system and be done with it.I see your point regarding the rock and expense of blasting , so crawl space is the way to go. Have seenarticles in FB where they put down a conc. slab and an insulated perimeter footing (this was in a cold climate) where they didn't have to go down very far. The conc. slab might be more ideal for the tube placement , than say stapleing it to bottom of your plywood subfloor.Bob had some good points regarding flex ductwork in the attic. They do a lot of that around here in Iowa, but mainly ( you didn't say if yours was a 1 or 2 story) for the second floor on 2-story houses.Not a good idea ( for reasons Bob mentioned) , but it is so easy and fast to do it that way , and the masses being so cost consicious have allowed this method to flourish and become the standard.I'm considering having "in-floor radiant heat" put in the basement of my next personnal home. There are a lot of past threads , which discuss types of systems. But I think I'm going to lean towards finding a local heating contractor, who has done some of these in the area, and hire him to do the design and install. I figure he would know the regional factors to help make the best solution.Good luck with your mountain home.DJ

4. 
   d_j_k | Dec 31, 2000 07:21pm | #8

   *Forgot to mention in previous post..Since we have Hot-humid summers and Cold winters, I was planning on putting in Forced air heating and cooling for the first floor and then in the basement (which will be a finished walk-out) putting Radiant heat ( water tubing) in concrete basement slab.Around here you don't need to cool basements in summer. And in winter Forced air heat registers do a lousy job of heating a basement. I figure in the winter if you have a toasty warm basement, then your first floor is going to have a warm floor.I guess this is in the middle of "not using radiant heat" or having a "total radiant heat system".Dj

5. 
   Mongo_ | Jan 01, 2001 01:07am | #9

   *Mike, Your second post (2.1) brings everything into focus...like previous replies, since you don't need the ducting for A/C and you're discussing the possibility of full-time occupancy, I'd recommend RFH. Baseboard would be my second choice, but a distant one. As Bob wrote, it could limit furniture placement, which could be more critical in a small house such as yours. Forced air? Not even a consideration for me.Gypcrete installations do have a bit of a lag for slab warm-up, but with the intent of not purging the plumbing you're going to want a bit of heat on anyway...just in case...though with new construction, latent solar gain should keep the interior above freezing.For those times when you do come and go for extended periods you may want to consider an X-10 or equivalent setup. this will allow you to monitor and adjust the house's climate via the telephone. Ramp up the system via telephone or computer in the morning, when you arive in the afternoon it'll be plenty comfy.

6. 
   FredB | Jan 01, 2001 02:01am | #10

   *Mike:I can guess just where you live, been in that area a fair amount over the years. Very nice place to live. I remember about the excavation costs, really steep in the mountains. As for heat; you have changed the situation a bit with your second post. But I wouldn't change very much even with the new data. I think since Forced Air is very common there you stand the best chance of getting a good design, install and maintenance by sticking with what is common in that area. Plus, forced air does allow for a tight house that is still able to have healthy, conditioned air inside without extra ducting.Will your propane system be single user, or will it be one of the community systems? If single user just be sure you have a big enough tank to last through a snowstorm, if you live on one of the tough roads.I still would design the plumbing to be drained. Very little problem when doing it in a new place. And, if you decide to go to Cozumel for a couple weeks you can go without worrying about the plumbing freezing back home.Good luck in your new place.

7. 
   Bob_Walker | Jan 01, 2001 02:42am | #11

   *FredB> I think since Forced Air is very common there you stand the best chance of getting a good design, install and maintenance by sticking with what is common in that area. In my area, probably >98% of new construction is FHA. I don't know enough about design to comment on that, but a significant % of the installations I see leave something to be desired, often a great deal: mainly miles of flex duct improperly installed; leaky duct work; I'm still seeing the metal nailed to the joists and using that space between the joists as return plenums!Maintenance often leaves a bit to be desired, as well. Maybe it's just my area, but I wonder.

8. 
   Mike_Brezden | Jan 01, 2001 03:27am | #12

   *To All:I want to thank everyone for their opinions and advice. Based on what I've learned from you all, I'm definately going to get bids for radiant floor heating. Mongo posted a messege refering to an X-10 setup where I could control the temp by phone or computer; if anyone knows more about a system like this please tell me more. Also, I'm impressed with some of the "dyed & stamped" concrete slabs I've seen. I'm wondering if it is feasible to combine this technique with the lightweight concrete they use with the in-floor heating. Any thougths on this one?Thanks, Mike

9. 
   Mongo_ | Jan 01, 2001 08:33am | #13

   *Hometech mini HVAC tutorial...not great, but some basic info for you.Hometech's EquipmentSmarthome's HVAC pageOne-way control is easiest and least expensive...control via the telephone. Two-way, where the house "calls" you to tell you there's a problem, is much more costly.Start simple...though the options out there are pretty interesting, you'll most likely find you'll never use all the bells and whistles. Make the automation conform to your lifestyle instead of your lifestyle conforming to the automation.

10. 
    Freelance_ | Jan 01, 2001 04:17pm | #14

    *Mike-If you go the home automation/telephone interface route make sure that the mechanical complexion of the whole project harmonizes to take best advantage of the centralization of intelligence and control.This implies good coordination between the mechanical trades and mechanical designer if there is one. This is crucial, not only because of the possibility of squandered opportunity now but maybe for the lifespan of the home. The mechanical-room in an automated house, optimally, will be connected via conduit to the entire home. If the conduit is installed well, with the anticipated needs of what it'll carry now and what it might carry in the future in mind, adding to, or changing the communications and control aspect of the house can be made almost non-invasive. I just made extensive use of a flexible plastic conduit made by Carlon. It is inexpensive and easy to install, round cable pulls thru it easily. If this stuff were used throughout (1000' of 1/2" is $300) the house could almost be re-wired for various reasons without opening any cavities. Something I'd consider, especially if the house is going to be able to lope along on passive solar gain without active heating while you're gone is, water detectors under sinks and at the washing machine, etc. These get wired to the controller, if the controller detects a leak, it can shut off the main water supply by closing a solenoid valve at the entrance. This will allow you, or someone using your home to come and go without having to deal with the fact that no one might be there for a while and that a leak could be disastrous. Of course you could manually close the main when you leave and open it on arriving, but it would be relatively cost-effective to design a system that addresses all the house's needs up-front.What I mean about coordination of trades is: plumber installs standard 1" ball valve at main, just downstream he installs a 1" brass solenoid valve that is "normally open." This means that until voltage is applied to that valve by a controller, it is open. If the plumber accidentally bought a "normally closed" valve he wouldn't be able to test his system until a central controller is installed, perhaps, much later. This would mean that he would have to remove the valve by opening unions, if they were there, and they should be, and install a short length with the halves of another 2 unions to pressurize the system. Then he leaves a $50 valve on the ground where it either disappears or is ruined. I can almost guarantee that when it's time to get a second valve that you'll be paying and the whole round trip will have cost YOU three or four hundred bucks. Then the electrician will say he was never told to run 3-conductor #18 wire from the controller to the area of that valve, to say nothing of from the under-sink areas and washing machine. Retro-wiring is no fun and is not the same thing as not having pulled wire through conduit yet. An approach like this in the mountains is sound and reasonable. More than likely though it's going to put someone in the position of coordinator. If no one steps up to fill that role you could easily end up with feuding trades and extensive re-do's. I've seen it happen... in the mountains.Lance

11. 
    Jim_Roberts | Jan 01, 2001 10:27pm | #15

    *I recently finished my radiant heated basement concrete floor (smooth finish) with acid stain (a dark brown border and a tan interior) and high gloss sealer. It turned out beautiful. Very similiar to the pictures at http://www.decorativeconcrete.com (I bought the stain from them) and http://www.acid-stain.com. I also did a stamped and acid stained sidewalk that turned out very nice.If I had it to do over again, I would have considered doing the same with a room or two of my 1st floor gypcrete if the acid stain would work on the lightweight concrete. You may want to contact Maxxon and ask them if they have any experience with acid staining their product (they may not). It may just take some experimenting - the acid stains are not very expensive. You wouldn't be able to stamp the gypcrete though, but this would not deter me. The smooth finish acid stain floors are very nice.This floor finish would not be for everyone though. My results have led to an irregular, mottled type color patern with some areas of the concrete that didn't stain as well as others (a little like an irregular marble-type finish)

12. 
    d_j_k | Jan 08, 2001 12:58am | #16

    *Mike,Was organizing my office today and ran across an article in the Feb/Mar 1997 issue of FH , called"Frost-Protected Shallow Foundations".It would be a good alternative to the crawl spce you were looking at.DJ

13. 
    John_Wright | Jan 09, 2001 04:18pm | #17

    *I would consider a geothermal system. Recently had a WaterFurnace system installed in my PA home and is working great. They and other mfgrs have mufti-function units that will give you FHA (and cooling if needed) as well as a radiant floor hot water loop. I did not opt for the radiant floor - but if budget would have allowed I would have in the basement slab.Can post more details if wanted....

14. 
    Tom_Schaaf | Jan 18, 2001 05:53am | #18

    *I am building a similar vacation home with 2 floors above an unfinished daylight basement that will be mostly garage and storage. RFH seems wasted on that floor, and I'm considering using baseboard heat. What factors would push you to install RFH on upper floors or to just go with forced-air?

2. 
   Mike_Brezden | Jan 18, 2001 05:53am | #19

   *
   I'm building a 1300 sf, 2 bedroom, 2 bath vacation home in the mountains of Colorado at an elevation of 9200 feet. The house will sit above an enclosed crawl space. I would appreciate advice regarding in-floor radiant, baseboard, or forced air heat. The only heating contractor I've consulted so far wants to install forced air with flexible ducting in the attic. Cost is always a consideration but I'm also willing to pay for quality. Thanks in advance for your thoughts.