What is the top value in vinyl windows?
GoldenWreckedAngle
| Posted in General Discussion on
Andersons seem to be a favorite around here. Any other brands I should not miss getting a quote on?
I’ve also been told that casements seal better than sliders. Any truth to that rumor? The mechanics of casements certainly seem like they would be easier to seal.
Looking for price versus value – best bang for the buck info.
Kevin Halliburton
“I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity.” – I.M. Pei –
Replies
Andersens are vinyl clad wood windows. There are companies that make total vinyl extrusion frames and sash. Only used full vinyl once, cheapos on a garage. As far as style or type of window. The design of the house often dictates which is used, i.e. casement, sliders, double hung, etc. If this is for your house, I'd go with a top name vinly or aluminum clad wood window construction. I like Andersens, in vinyl clad, and Kolbe & Kolbe, in aluminum.
Brudoggie
Various people have posted dislike or distrust of all vinyl windows. What is the feared problem with them?
I installed some for a customer in '95, one of my last contracting jobs, and he still likes them.Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.
We just put some all extruded vinyl replacement windows in a tornado damaged rental property.
I wouldn't want them on my house, very flimsly looked cheap, and the slide mechanism were shoddy.
Probably all a function of the brand/quality that were used, but I didn't like them personally.
Then again the lady got 75% the value of the house and kept trying to save money everywhere she could so she could pad the 'ol bank account.Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, Professionals built the Titanic.
Brudoggie wrote, "Andersens are vinyl clad wood windows."
Well, that was what I thought but I read several messages in my search here that I thought were talking about an all vinyl Anderson window. I sure can't find anything about it elsewhere so I'm willing to take your word that I'm wrong.
I like the Anderson clad windows but they are a bit pricey compared to all vinyl. Energy Star rated vinyl windows perform very close to, or in some cases superior to, the high end wood windows in thermal efficiency. The wood windows look nicer but from an energy savings standpoint I would never recover the additional expense.
That is why I phrased the initial question as I did. "Best" and "best bang for the buck" are not always the same thing. I know that some purists will never embrace vinyl anything but there are some very high quality all vinyl windows on the market now days that I believe make a lot of sense in fine built, energy efficient homes.
I guess if money were no object I'd pick my dream team of contractors off of this site, put you all up in the local Embassy Suites and pay you what you're worth to get the most beautiful home buildable. As it is, I'm doing a lot of this one myself and the budget dictates "best bang for the buck" selections such as extruded vinyl windows.
Anyone else have a favorite brand they wouldn't mind sharing?Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
I can give you the brand we used and strongly recommend not using them if that helps
They may be local, I never heard of them before this, but maybe not.
Target windows.Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, Professionals built the Titanic.
Thanks CAG. As far as I can tell Target windows is not an Energy Star rated manufacturer and will not be on my short list.Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
As far as I am concerned they shouldn't be anybodys long or short list. Real POS's Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, Professionals built the Titanic.
Kevin, take a look at these FAQ's offered at a Renewal by Andersen site. http://www.rbaohio.com/faqs.htm
If you use these, let us know of your experience with this new product.
__________________________________________
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://quittintime.infopop.cc/ubbthreads/categories.php?Cat=
I read an article several years ago that said vinyls over 26 or 28 inches wide were problems - something to do with expansion rate. this was the recommendation from some national group of architechs which they stood by even when challenged by the vinyl window people.
Wain,
I would be interested in reviewing that article if you can recall any further information about it.
Thanks,Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
Well, at the risk of answering all of my own questions I thought I would post a couple more links I've relied on for info. Never know who will be perusing this thread for info in the future.
Texas Window Initiative: http://www.frontierassoc.com/texwin/index.html
Energy Star Rating Council: http://www.energystar.gov/
Efficient Windows Collaborative: http://www.efficientwindows.org/Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
I think it was This old house about 2 or 3 years ago.
Some big architectural group said they had a rule of no all-vinyl windows over 26 or 28 inches ( WIDE) .
It was attacked by the vinyl window folks and when quoted for a reply by the editors of TOH ( I think) the reply was : no vinyl over 26 inches.
i have all wood windows installed in 1983 Caradco and way over half of the seals have blown out requiring replacement.
I think the whole double pane window thing is hype. Seems old fashion storm windows would be better/cheaper. the double may save energy but they do not save money.
Edited 6/28/2003 7:34:56 AM ET by wain
Thank you Clavin. I am intrigued by the unique make up of the frame but they appear to be a replacement window only. I will continue to investigate...
They are hard to find but I am also interested in fiberglass extrusions and foam filled vinyl extrusions like the Kensington brand http://www.kensingtonwindows.com/index.html and Thermotech http://www.thermotechwindows.com/home.htm. Both are significantly stiffer than hollow vinyl and have better U and R-values as well but I'm not finding dealers for this type of window in Texas.
Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
Edited 6/27/2003 9:41:16 AM ET by wrecked angle
Here is another good vinyl window discussion site I discovered
http://windowworx.com/discussion/Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
Check these windows out.
I have them in my home and several folks more knowledgeable than myself re windows have said that they are both very good windows and also a good value.
http://www.simonton.com
Eric S.
I actually like Simonton windows BUT my local distributor is AWFUL!! Took them six months to replace sashes that wouldnt lock. You are buying more than a window...you are buying service too. Couldnt buy another Simonton
Thanks Eric,
I don't have a local rep for Simonton either but there are a few within reasonable shipping range. I will touch base with a couple of them next week.Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
Kevin:
Although the nearest dealer to you looks to be in Albuquerque, you might be interested in Milgard Windows at http://www.milgard.com
We just installed Milgard vinyl replacements (very pleased with the quality) and will be specifying their pultruded fiberglass units for our new home. One thing we really like is Milgard's lifetime repair or replace warranty to the original owner - parts and labor included. Check 'em out.
Dave
I'm in LA and getting ready for a remodel. My contractor likes Milgard too.
You will need to get Andersen Renewal windows through a Renewal dealer/installer. There is no way to buy them, other than installed by the dealer. If you do not have a Renewal dealer that covers your location, you are out of luck.
They are a fabulous window. I know the Andersen people that designed the line, have the patents, and were responsible for the whole thing. Their plant is very impressive. You will not go wrong if you get them.
You will go wrong, however, if you buy "hollow vinyl" windows. That is the term the Andersen guys, and when they say it they have a sneer on their faces, use for vinyl windows.
The Renewal line products use a composite wood fiber material blended with a proprietary mix of resins and binders, and extruded shapes using this innovative material are used to make frames and sash.
Smoly Hokes Batman! I went to HD, the local Andersen dealer, tonight and priced out their high end vinyl line against Andersen. I'm installing 20 windows.
American Craftsman Vinyl: $6,075.79
Andersen vinyl clad wood: A little more than double that money!
Ok, budget reality sinking in here... I didn't figure enough for the windows.
Time to get creative - who needs finished walls anyway? Anybody know a really durable paint I can use for a floor covering until my windows are paid for? :-)>
Seriously, I had some very qualified help establishing my budget. Do those numbers sound high to the rest of you?
Edit: Several other distributors have my window plans for takeoffs but won't have solid numbers for me until next week. These initial numbers just hit me as pretty high but nothing to compare them to except my preliminary budget. I figured an average of around $220 per window.
Oh yea - also meant to post this to all.
Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
Edited 6/28/2003 12:24:13 AM ET by wrecked angle
Kevin,
I don't know your window configurations at all but I am purchasing 75 windows from Crestline for roughly $20,000. These are aluminum extrusion clad windows (their top model with cladding). Many twins (2 double hung windows mulled together) and many twins with transoms above. So that's 75 total panes of glass in frame not 75 rough openings. This also includes one single and one double swinging exterior french door.
Overall I really like the Crestline product a lot. They have just gone through a redesign so this window is a little different than past windows some have seen. I am currently living in a house with Crestline windows (their top model at the time... 12 years ago) and they have been nothing but perfect.
As a reference point, all other vendors in this class came in near $23,000 to $25,000 (including Andersen 400 series).
Rob Kress
I have used milgard windows in the Oregon area since 1986, all vinyl since 1990, service is great and product is excellent. As for the arguments of hollow vinyl I have not seen any problems in the last 8 years, Originally in big picture windows there was not enough support for the weight of the double glass and the extrusions designs had not been perfected.. Each manufacture uses their own style of extrusion so I have seen them very a lot, we have 7 manufactures within 3 hours of us. Rot in wood windows has moved people even in the 500k plus market to use vinyl here. As for the fiberglass and wood composite products I am waiting to see respectable company offer the product to builders. The suppliers here in Oregon only go direct to the consumer and use less than ethical sales methods at prices that are out of line 1100-1800 apiece retro- fit installed, milgard windows here can be installed in the 400-500 range. Milgards here average around 175 to 200 each. I pick up at one of the factories so no shipping involved. Another brand that I have used and like are Insulate, I used before they where bought by certainteed, but I here they have not changed. Also I think Milgard was bought by Masco so availability may be improving. Vinyl windows that are cheap is the garbage I hear problems with quality products have thick and more complex extrisions and hardware that works. As for casements I use them when the customer wants them, but I dont like the looks of them, to much white frame (about 3-4 inch) Also do not do any color except white or almond, the only products I had long term problems with where cap-stock, a darker color is put over the white vinyl. good luck
I think you might get a better deal from a local distributor when buying that many windows. Even if you don't have them do the install. I assume they need to meet a quota or at least get better volume pricing when placing large orders. My local dealer was willing discount 25% off list for an order of more than five windows.
Calvin recommended the Anderson renewal earlier and I am very interested but they appear to be a replacement window only. The nearest distributor is also more than three hours away. I may call them Monday anyway. Maybe they can at least satisfy some of my curiosity.Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
Ok, I may well have found the ultimate vinyl window - R values as high as R13!!! That is a U-value of .11!!!
http://www.gilkey.com
These guys make a nice, energy efficient window too:
http://www.kensingtonwindows.com
Of course they are not available in my area but I thought I would pass the info along to the rest of you who may be located where they are available.
Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
Some years ago we installed some Pella's, a very good product, with their new vinyl wrap. The white clad held up, however, the bronze or dark color expanded and contracted so much they had to be replaced with their original aluminum clad.
We've switched to Marvin, so I don't know if they continue to have a problem, but I'd be suspect from any manufacture.
Edited 6/28/2003 8:41:21 AM ET by Russ
I would put in another vote for the Andersen vinyl clad wood windows.
In all vinyl, I have heard good things about the Simonton and Alside windows. I have installed both these brands in customers houses when they wanted an all vinyl product. Pretty sure you can order either one with foam filled chambers for an upcharge. They seemed very well built, and I haven't had any complaints, but it has only been a few years since I put them in.
http://www.alside.com
Maybe it's a regional thing, but out here in Western Washington vinyl extruded windows have been the norm for several years now. They have better u-values than wood and are far, far less expensive. I see them everywhere I go around here, all types of houses. But I have to add that we have a real temperate climate, which could make a difference.
Your $220.00/window budget is probably realistic as long as you stay with all vinyl, but it sounds real low to me if you want vinyl clad wood - unless you get something really cheap - which I wouldn't expect to stand up very well.
Milgard, Insullate, Best Built...hell, I can't even remember all the vinyl windows and sliding glass doors we've installed over the past decade - not much difference, but I have to say that Insullate windows always seemed a little better to me. They and Milgard are the two most common here, with Insullate having a better warranty. I think they were bought by some conglomerate a couple years ago, and I don't remember installing any since I heard that, but I wouldn't hesitate to use them again.
If you can invest a little more, I'd take a hard look at Milgard fiberglass windows. I recently worked on a house that had been retrofitted with their wood clad fiberglass replacement windows and they are nice. Really nice. But the wood clad are spendy. I bet they make an all fiberglass line that's an upgrade from vinyl, but still a better price value than good quality wood windows.
The nice thing about fiberglass is it's stronger than vinyl, so they can make the extrusions smaller, very similar in dimension to wood, so they don't draw your eye. That's one of the things I don't like about vinyl, those wide extrusions look real clunky to me.
Plus, you're not supposed to paint vinyl any dark colors because it has a low melting point. Real low. I've heard like 160 degrees or something, and you know how hot any dark surface gets in direct sunlight. I guess it's not that big a deal if you plan on a dark colored house with white or almond trim, but if you have a light colored house, with dark trim, then those white or almond windows...well, it's reall common around here, even on expensive houses, but it always looks like hell to me, windows stick out like a sore thumb.
Performance wise, I think good vinyl are better than cheap wood windows. It's a matter of asthetics to me. But these fiberglass windows could be the ideal compromise for painted interiors.
Edited 6/28/2003 10:53:29 AM ET by jim blodgett
Since we're on the subject of vinyl windows, on occasion I come across vinyl doublehung windows that have a ballast of what I think is sand inside their cores. Does anyone know what the pupose is outside of a weight factor to balance the weight?
Since we're on the subject of vinyl windows, on occasion I come across vinyl doublehung windows that have a ballast of what I think is sand inside their cores. Does anyone know what the pupose is outside of a weight factor to balance the weight?
Rez, this is a pure guess, though it is becoming more of an educated one daily. I suspect that "ballast" is primarily a frame stiffener. The foam filled vinyl windows are generally much stiffer than their hollow frame counterparts. I'm guessing the ballast you're seeing is another method of achieving the same effect without creating some of the foam swelling issues that have plagued the foam filled vinyl extrusion windows.Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
Thank you Jim and everyone else. I've had some great recommendations.
Getting much more interested in fiberglass but I can't find a dealer in my area for any fiberglass windows. Is it my imagination or have I been saying that to just about everyone who has a window I'm really interested in. Jim, Milgard's site looked pretty good - no service available anywhere near here! What, do they not make or sell decent windows in Texas?!
Here's a tidbit I found on fiberglass: (Now that I've backspaced twelve times to get back here I can't even remember where I copy-clipped it)
Fiberglass Frames
Fiberglass frames are not too old and yet are not widely available. With high R-Values, fiberglass frames are excellent for insulating and will not warp, shrink, swell, rot or corrode. Unprotected fiberglass does not hold up to the weather and therefore is always painted. Some fiberglass frames are hollow, while others are filled with fiberglass insulation.
My biggest concerns with vinyl are the potential for sag in some of my larger windows and I don't like being stuck with the limited frame colors. If I go with vinyl it will not be a cheapo vinyl for sure.
The more I research this and weigh all of your invaluable feedback, the more I like Fiberglass over vinyl. Wood is not in the budget, Aluminum is a pathetic insulator, vinyl has a few drawbacks but is great on thermal efficiency and fiberglass seems to provide a reasonable balance to all these considerations. Now, if I can just find one or two fiberglass dealers in my area...
Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
No-one's name dropped Gerkin yet. I am not a fan at all of vinyl, but I see these around here quite frequently and thus far they seem to hold up and the homeowners aren't complaining. Gerkin makes a heck of a good storm door.
"The child is grown / The dream is gone / And I have become / Comfortably numb " lyrics by Roger Waters
No-one's name dropped Gerkin yet
Hey RW, Thank you but guess what... no dealer in my area!
Grrrrr! This is getting just a little frustrating!Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
Bummer. Their storms are a moneymaker if you install storms for a flat rate. 30 minutes and you're done. Open the box, stick it in the opening, screw in the jambs, cut the straps, and install the lock screws. Check, please! Up a little late, ain't we?"The child is grown / The dream is gone / And I have become / Comfortably numb " lyrics by Roger Waters
Up a little late, ain't we?
Yea, had a nightmare that I was building a house and couldn't find decent windows for it in my budget...
Wait, it's Sunday afternoon now - it wasn't a dream - Aaaaaaaaagh!Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
Has anyone used the Marvin Integrity? It is a fiberglass frame with wood interior. If so, what were your impressions of them?
The Marvin rep. from Fort Worth is coming to town later this week and I'm planning to get a quote from him. Interestingly the local Marvin dealer has to defer all Integrity sales to the Fort Worth dealer. Don't want to set a dangerous precedent of selling a decent window directly in Abilene I guess.Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
Marvin does a number of things in their integrity line. I haven't used the FG windows but I've installed a fair number of the FG clad sliders. They were pretty decent. The only thing I didn't care for on the slider was that the threshold was hollow and when you installed the foot bolt the screws didn't really have a lot to grab on to. Not an issue with the windows, I suspect. They ought to be worth a look. Marvin makes some decent stuff anymore."The child is grown / The dream is gone / And I have become / Comfortably numb " lyrics by Roger Waters
Simonton windows from WV are as good as....check them out and compare with ANY of the high priced brands... note taht the old patents were only good for 17 years. This window company has windows that fit your budget, vinyl clad wood with tilt in, spring balances, etc and Energy Star.
Service is good as they have a touring factory rep for almost every state.., so you are not dependent on the local reps for service.
My experience with Simonton service was a-w-f-u-l!! Doofus rep showed up (after a two week wait) on site where windows wouldnt lock and looked at them for 2 secs max to proclaim them INSTALLED WRONG. His problem was, I knew what was wrong with them-the interlocking flanges were bent on 4 out of five windows. He mighta made a save if he would have gotten me the new sashes he promised me in two to three weeks. However, it took 6 months.
To make up for it he offered me two other windows at no charge. They came in the wrong size. He is probably an area manager by now.