Replies

1. 
   FrankB89 | Sep 13, 2004 02:39am | #1

   That's the head.  Do yourself a favor and get a titanium framer....14 oz. will do everything a 28 oz club will do and save your bones in the process.

    

1. 
   Dinosaur | Sep 13, 2004 04:05am | #2

   Serious question on this one--what you just said seems to defy the basic laws of physics, you know: the one that states that Mass is directly proportional to Swat, LOL....

   I think if my CRS isn't fooling me again that I learned back in a classroom somewhere that the kinetic energy of a body is determined by its mass and its speed. So, how can a 14-oz hammer--no matter what it's made of--smack as hard as a 28-oz...unless you speed up the swing to make the numbers come out the same?Dinosaur

   'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?

1. 
   xMikeSmith | Sep 13, 2004 04:10am | #3

   th.... does sorta defy physics , don't it ?...

   that's what makes it so cool.. my titanium 16 oz. framer definitely packs more whollop than my 20 oz. steel plumb..

    and my titanium driver smacks the golf ball a hell of lot further than my steel or wood drivers..

    in both cases... lot's more effect at the striking face with the same amount of force..

    and in the hammer case... lot's less stress on my elbow..

    like the man said.. do yourself a favor and get a titanium hammerMike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

1. 
   handhewn | Sep 13, 2004 04:23am | #5

   After spending Feb. and Mar. recovering from carpel tunnel syndrome surgery, I gotta tell ya'all, do whatever you can to lighten the load on your hands and forearms. Use a lighter hammer, don't use your hands as a hammer, think about the grief your hands and the rest of your body for that matter is going thru everytime you ask them/it to do something for you. That hole process really suc$ked the big winkie.

   CurlyHand Hewn Restorations Inc.

   Restoring the past for the future.

1. 
   Dinosaur | Sep 13, 2004 04:35am | #8

   The big demon for hammer swingers that causes epiconditis ('tennis' elbow) and carpal tunnel inflammation is not the weight of the hammer, it's the vibration transmitted down the hammer handle to the carpenter's hand. Using a wood handle is the best way to attenuate this vibration. Putting a handgrip of hockey tape over a thin layer of foam tape on the handle will help too. But metal and FG handles are deadly, no matter what the cute little tags the Mfgrs hang on the hammer claim.

   One more thing you can do to relieve hand strain from hammer use is to get an axe-handled hammer. The bulbous end makes an enormous difference in how much strength you need to use to hang on to the thing--cuts it by what feels like 60% or better....Dinosaur

   'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?

2. 
   Dinosaur | Sep 13, 2004 04:29am | #6

   Ha! You've got my number; if we'd had a chance to play golf at Rhodefest, you woulda seen me haul out my old set of...TA DA! Wooden woods!

   But I understand the metal woods in golf clubs; there are major design differences between a traditional wooden club head and the new metal clubs, like a way oversized head for starters. This doesn't necessarily pack more whallop...but it it a much more forgiving tool for the golfer. In other words, a slight misalignment in your swing has much less deleterious effect on your drive using a Ping than if you were swinging my old Wilsons.

   I'd try the new ones...but I just can't stand that 'tink' sound they make....Dinosaur

   'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?

1. 
   xMikeSmith | Sep 13, 2004 04:49am | #11

   th...

    you get to love the ...."tink"... when you watch your drives go 50 yards further down the fairway..

    anyways.. mark is right ... about the hammer, anyways... faster speed means more impact ..

   here's what  stilletto has to say about it..

   one thing that caught my eye.... half the effort is lifting the hammer so you can drive it down... so the lifting effort is much less.. net result same number of nails driven with one third less effort.. and a third less shock on your frame and jointsMike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

2. 
   professor | Sep 13, 2004 04:55am | #12

   Hey Mike,

   Which  hammer do you have?  I would love to have a stilleto with the metal handle but I am choking on the idea of almost 200 bucks

   The Vaughn is about 110 with the extra head and it feels good to me.  Unfortunately they wont let me go drive a couple hundred spikes with it LOL.  Which is another reason I am hesitant to buy the stilleto.  Lota money if I don't like it.

3. 
   xMikeSmith | Sep 13, 2004 05:21am | #15

   mark... here's some of my hammers...

    the stilletto is the only model that Pro-Deck doesn't have .. it's a 16oz. stilletto with a composite handle   ( some kind of plastic ).. think it was about $129...

   next to it is my old 20oz plumb... my everyday 16oz. plumb ..

    and my yakabuci nail puller....

   i've also got one of the 20oz. "ducks"  .. the japanese hammers with the long  head..  and a great claw.. nice.. but i prefer the stilletto for framing..Mike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

4. 
   professor | Sep 13, 2004 05:29am | #17

   Mike,

   You have two things making that stilleto work for you .  The handle must be a good three inches longer than the plumb which would add a lot of speed to the head ........ and of course you have the lighter weight to make it even faster.  And yet it probably feels like a big framing hammer in terms of size.

   Nice hammer but of course you know pro-deck only collects wood handled hammers

   Speaking of prodeck......... where the heck is he ????

   mark

5. 
   xMikeSmith | Sep 13, 2004 05:32am | #19

   i'm holding you responsible for finding him... it was your turn to keep track , wasn't it  ?

   or are we still blaming hubcap for everything  these days ?Mike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

6. 
   professor | Sep 13, 2004 05:34am | #20

   Dunno but I gotta tell you I miss his pictures etc. not to mention him.  He always seems to have something worthwhile to add to the site.

7. 
   Pd5190 | Sep 13, 2004 04:15pm | #28

   In baseball and golf one aspect of swing speed and resulting distance is how much shaft flex occurs during the force of the swing. And this does happen with a baseball bat even a good wood bat. Distance is also effected by the amount of kinetic energy absorbed by the striking object versus energy transmitted to the ball. Technology in both in golf and baseball, softball have allowed lighter bats and clubs that transfer a greater degree of energy to the ball. This results in greater ball speed and distance. In baseball as well as softball; bat length to weight ratios have been restricted so as to reduce the speed of the ball off the bat to lesson the risk of injury to the players who have to field those balls. They are trying to keep the metal and composite bats in the performance range of wood bats. In golf no one is trying to catch those balls so the use of new designs and various metals and shaft materials have increased driving distances for the average player.

   Energy transfer is the key in bats, clubs and hammers. Its a combination of speed, weight, energy absorption and transmission. Some one needs to design a test machine for hammers to measure all of those factors and put a rating on a hammer. But then an experienced carpenter can most likely tell you everything you need to know. Grip size can also be a factor as it is in tennis as to how much vibration is transferred to the arm.

8. 
   Sphere | Sep 13, 2004 04:24pm | #29

   I'll pipe in with an observation only.

   When striking a chisel, a wood mallet delivers a different blow than a steel hammer.

   It seems that the force is more sustained, not quickly dissolved. I almost always choose a mallet over a hammer for serious chiseling...besides being kinder to the chisel handle, I get better results..my lite carving mallet might weigh 6-8 oz. A heavier morticing mallet mebbe 14-18 oz.

   either one does better than a steel the same weight. It was  always a curiosity to me, but has been documented somewhere in a woodworking book I may have read. 

   Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

   Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations. 

9. 
   jazzdogg | Sep 14, 2004 05:59am | #40

   "I almost always choose a mallet over a hammer for serious chiseling"

   Sphere,

   Another advantage of mallets over hammers is that the round handle allows you to relax your grip on the upstroke, promoting bloodflow to your weary hands; relaxing the grip on the upstroke also allows the round shaft to rotate slightly, wearing the striking surface evenly around its circumference.

   In contrast, hammer handles, with their heavier heads more forceful blows, require you to maintain a firmer grip - tougher on the hand in several ways, as any seasoned framer can attest.

   Do you also find that you have better control when using mallets than when pushing chisels by hand?-Jazzdogg-

   Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.

10. 
    Sphere | Sep 14, 2004 02:22pm | #44

    I don't know if it's better control, because the guidance systems are different.

    Chopping with a mallet and paring a plug flush are at extreme ends of a chisels purpose. I did notice that on a recent fluted column job gougeing the flutes was lot easier with a mallet, than whacking the handle with my hand....lol  and less painful.

    my two main "wonkers" are homemade, small one is Dogwood spun on the lathe, the bigger one is rhododendron with just bandsawn handgrip...both very durable mallet woods. 

    Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

    Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations. 

11. 
    jazzdogg | Sep 14, 2004 06:11pm | #46

    Sphere,

    Here's a picture of a little mallet - used mostly for detail work.-Jazzdogg-

    Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.

12. 
    Pd5190 | Sep 14, 2004 07:43pm | #47

    With all the talk about wooden mallets, golf clubs, framing hammers of one kind or another there has been one factor left out of the discussion regarding injuries. Frequency of impact. A framer will have how many impacts in a day? How many in a week, a month and so on. I would guess that just on impact count alone a framer must have counts exceeding any other sport or profession by multiples of ten.

13. 
    ProDek | Sep 15, 2004 02:38am | #48

    Now days I would think a hardwood flooring installer would be swinging a club more than a framer. Nail guns have replaced most pounding professions.

    "Rather be a hammer than a nail"

    Bob

14. 
    Pd5190 | Sep 15, 2004 07:41am | #57

    Very true on the nail gun, but this started out as a post on hammers and there respective weights. Then got side tracked onto golf clubs and other striking instuments both for work and play.

15. 
    edwardh1 | Sep 15, 2004 02:40pm | #58

    high jacked to talking about Lanai s too

16. 
    ProDek | Sep 15, 2004 07:56pm | #64

    Very true on the nail gun, but this started out as a post on hammers and there respective weights. Then got side tracked onto golf clubs and other striking instuments both for work and play.

    So who said we can't use a nail gun for a hammer?

     It works great for moving that joist before you nail it.

    Speaking of pneumatic hammers I just love my palm nailer for 12" OC joist hanger in stalls.............Oops.......getting side tracked again............:-)

    Of all the slogans for hammers I like Dead Ons he best............

    MAKE THE NAIL BLEED!

    "Rather be a hammer than a nail"

    Bob

17. 
    FrankB89 | Sep 15, 2004 03:54am | #49

    I'm glad you brought up the mallet thing:  I've got several, including a couple Lignum Vitae carvers mallets, a dogwood mallet and an oak mallet (both made by me), but the one I use is a 32 oz. polyurethane mallet I bought from Woodcraft supply years ago.

    All my mallets are of the tapered barrel-head type, which I discovered early on give a good ergonomic strike angle to the chisel, providing for good control.  I've done quite a bit of timber framing and log work and have come to rely on the polyurethane mallet for cutting out deep mortises and notches and such.

    At 2 lbs, it's certainly a far cry from the titanium we've been debating, but it's certainly easy on my 57 yr. old elbows and gets the job done and is nearly indestructable and allows me to set my carvers mallets in retirement on a shelf in my little office/den alongside my drawknives, antique boring machine, spring board and other relics of the past. 

18. 
    Sphere | Sep 15, 2004 04:05am | #50

    I have used one of them in a buddies shop...pretty sweet. I have not ever bought a mallet..(too cheap I guess) but if I did, that would be what I am after.

    Back when I was using a froe for some stuff, man, I tore up 3 apple mallets a yr. And Hickory didn't last too long either. So now it's Rhododendron (or Mountain laurel) or Dogwood.

    I also have destroyed a few "dead blow" shot filled mallets..they crack and fall to pcs. after awhile.

    Get some funny looks from other subs onsites, when I bring out  a homemade "wonker"...lol  If ya ever had to help a slick with a mallet...you know what kind of work I am talking about. 

    Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

    Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations. 

19. 
    DHoov2 | Sep 15, 2004 05:15am | #52

    Is a 16 oz titanium hammer better than a 16 oz forged steel hammer? If it is, then the advantage of titanium is not simply weight and the speed at which it can be swung. So the advantage must have to do with hardness and/or efficient energy transfer. Right?

20. 
    Mitremike | Oct 06, 2004 02:48am | #90

    true --check my earlier post 47427.25. Or as another said if you can swing a marchmello fast enough on the end of a string you can drive a 16 pd nail--all about the efficency of the material . Mike

21. 
    DanH | Sep 13, 2004 05:42am | #21

    Keep in mind that a longer handle is only good if you can hit the nail accurately. Fairly easy for a practiced pro to use a longer handle -- not so easy for a weekend carp.

    Likewise with a lighter, faster-moving head. A pro can swing faster (especially with a longer handle) and still be accurate, but a guy like me won't swing any faster with a lighter head and the light hammer will just bounce off the nail without moving it.

22. 
    professor | Sep 13, 2004 05:46am | #22

    good points Dan, but I do think you would probably become proficient with the lighter hammer quicker.  What started this though was why it works as well or better than the heavier hammer.  And that is physics.  I just know I want one.  LOL

23. 
    blue_eyed_devil | Oct 06, 2004 02:26am | #87

    Dan, you will swing faster, even if your not trying. It just happens automatically.

    The longer hammer handle does not mean that you can't choke it. I often choke a hammer.

    I guarantee that your hammer will not "bounce off". It will drive the nail.

    Every single person that ever tried my 14pz hammer is amazed at how the nail drives despite being so light. It drives exactly like a 20 steel.

    blueIf you want to read a fancy personal signature...  go read someone else's post.

24. 
    ProDek | Sep 13, 2004 09:29am | #26

    Speaking of prodeck......... where the heck is he ????

    He has been busier than a cat on a hot tin roof, with deck jobs, garage sale, sorting packing,repairing,selling my home, downsizing, setting up shop at a 10'x20' storage unit,remodeling the 5 year old home we're moving to with hardwood floors,new baseboard,granite counters, heated tile floors,and paint before we move.

    I don't know where this year went but I can't wait till this winter when things slow down a bit.

    Now about the handles............I do own a few aluminum handled Stillettos, a plastic Top Banana, but your right, most of them are wood.

    I like 20-22 oz head weight but I also liked the old brick cell phones better than these new little flip-top jobs.

    Holding a hammer is like holding a baseball bat......the grip,weight, and length, is different and the one you pick is perfect for you and you alone.

    Thanks for noticing my absence ,  I've really missed  talking to you guys...........

    As Arnold says" I'll be Bock"

    "Rather be a hammer than a nail"

    Bob

    Edited 9/13/2004 10:28 am ET by Pro-Dek

25. 
    Isamemon | Sep 14, 2004 01:59am | #36

    thanks pro-deck

    like you said , the  grip,weight  and length is what is about

    for some reason I can not get used to an aluminum bat

    the "ping" is not the same as a long ball at shea stadium off a wood bat, or the knock and silence just before the crowd came alive after mick hit a biggin

    now that i am older and play old guys c league softball I have to use an aluminum bat, its the rules, and you get the "ting" and  soft but shrill echo, it aint the same,.. but I still have a few of my "clubs" in the closet that I take to the batting cages

    but a louie ville slugger feels best in my hands, hey I like wood its a big part of the reason Im in this biz. wood is good

    but metal heads........, its kind of the same topic, titanium just dont feel right to me,  the "ting" ,the light feel

    On the job site I am one of the very few not swinging titanium. and I can swing all day with the best of em half my age

    but you know when it needs to be "sunk" guys want to borrow my 24 oz framer

    my elbow and rist have not given out yet

    maybe Im just lucky, but shoot Im only in my 50's

    and then again Im pretty weird, Ive proven that here before

26. 
    professor | Sep 14, 2004 05:20am | #38

    Glad to hear from you Bob and glad to hear you are busy.

    Mark

27. 
    blue_eyed_devil | Oct 06, 2004 02:22am | #86

    Professor...I have a wood handled  14 oz stilleto.

    Actually, I haven't seen it in a year or two...it had a broken handle and I haven't fixed it yet.

    I don't drive enough hand pounded nails to care either way.

    blue If you want to read a fancy personal signature...  go read someone else's post.

28. 
    caldwellbob | Sep 13, 2004 05:47am | #23

    Do yourself a BIG Favor and look for the Dalluge "Sweet 16" titanium. They come with either straight or curved handles. I think its a step up from any Stiletto

29. 
    professor | Sep 13, 2004 05:51am | #25

    got a link for them?

30. 
    caldwellbob | Sep 14, 2004 06:59am | #43

    I wish I could help you, but I've purchased mine from a local lumber yard, Franklin lumber, in Boise, Idaho. I'm sure that they are not a rare beast. I've heard here recently that Hart or someone like that bought them out. I think it was Pro-Dek that said it, if I'm not mistaken. I'm totally in the dark about all the physics and weight ratios etc., being talked about in this thread. It confounded me how I could drive nails faster with a 14/16 oz. titanium hammer than my trusty old 28 oz. Plumb rigging ax, but I couldn't argue with the facts. No matter the reason, those lightweight little titanium hammers sink those nails fast. The big plus is not toting around 2 extra pounds in your bags all day.

31. 
    blue_eyed_devil | Oct 06, 2004 02:27am | #88

    I'd be open to trying something better than a stilleto Caldwellbob.

    Where do they sell the Dalluge?

    blueIf you want to read a fancy personal signature...  go read someone else's post.

32. 
    caldwellbob | Oct 06, 2004 06:43am | #91

    i got mine at the local lumber yard. I wish I knew if they had a website or anything, but I don't. Dalluge makes a straight handle and a curved and I love em both. The balance is GOOD. I started framing with a Plumb 28 oz. rigging ax, long time ago.  The balance on the Dalluge is the same. Not head heavy, but the weight of the head goes to the nail. Or something like that. Hope you can find one.

33. 
    MarkH | Sep 13, 2004 05:09am | #13

    If a lighter hammer swings faster, just use your 12 oz trim hammer for framing!

    I think the difference is in the dead blow. The titanium material does not have the same spring rate as steel, therefore more force is transmitted into the nail than with an identical steel head. Also at the same time, less recoil is transmitted back into your body at the time of impact. That's why it hits harder, hurts less and goes tink instead of bing when it hits a nail.

34. 
    Mitremike | Sep 13, 2004 05:27am | #16

    IMHO I have read the whole thread and I have to agree with Martha Stewert---never thought i would say that line---in that the speed of the hammer is beneficial but the ultimate advantage is that the titanium is much more efficient at transferring the energy of the swing into driving force on the nail head. Picking up a lighter hammer to the top of the swing has got to feel good at the end of the day. topped by a better handle keeping the vibrations away from your elbow . Will the debate ever end? I doudt it. good luck to all. Mike

35. 
    professor | Sep 13, 2004 05:30am | #18

    debate all you want but you can't argue with physics.

36. 
    Mitremike | Sep 13, 2004 05:48am | #24

    Debate with physics? No way I use it every day . but one thing you have to take into account is the energy stored in the swinging head is of a finite amount and the nail requires a value of that energy to penatrate the wood. How that energy is transferred from one body ( the hammer) to the subject body (the nail) is a function of efficinency. The harder the hammer head is and the more resistent the handle to vibrations results in more energy into the nail. You know one of the jokes around here is " Oh this! You mean my hammer? Nah ---its not for nails it is just for moving wall and looks! " Oh well nevertheless it is always nice to hear from others. Good luck Mike

37. 
    blue_eyed_devil | Oct 06, 2004 02:29am | #89

    Mitremike, the stilletto is not good at moving walls, nor removing well nailed braces.

    That is one reason that I switched back to a heavier steel headed hammer. The stilletto bounces off of heavy loads.

    blueIf you want to read a fancy personal signature...  go read someone else's post.

38. 
    Shoeman | Sep 13, 2004 03:21pm | #27

    with your physics line - are you saying that you can pound a sixteen penny nail with a marshmellow on a stick in the same number of hits as a steel hammer as long as they both have the same mass and handle length?

    Edited 9/13/2004 8:25 am ET by Shoeman

39. 
    ken1putt | Sep 13, 2004 06:36pm | #30

    Of course not, but the difference in hardness between Ti and steel is nothing like the difference you're talking about.

    This is an old golf argument, that Ti drivers hit it farther than steel ones because Ti is harder.

    Better science has shown that the flexible face of a Ti driver was really the source of the added ball speed. And even that is mostly misunderstood by golfers....

    Spring-faced drivers DO NOT launch the ball faster by acting like a trampoline. It turns out that at normal clubhead speeds, the collision exceeds the efficient compression of the ball. By flexing, the face of the club allows the ball to become more efficient, producing additional ball speed, and more distance.

    Of course this has exactly nothing to do with hammers.... LOL-

    -

    So many people preach equity in golf. Nothing is so foreign to the truth. Does any human being receive what he conceives as equity in his life? He has got to take the bitter with the sweet, and as he forges through all the intricacies and inequalities which life presents, he proves his metal. In golf the cardinal rules are arbitrary and not founded on eternal justice. Equity has nothing to do with the game itself. If founded on eternal justice the game would be deadly dull to watch and play. --Charles Blair Macdonald

40. 
    Pd5190 | Sep 13, 2004 07:02pm | #31

    The one factor in all of this that can vary is the ball. Balls in sports struck by bats clubs etc have changed over the years as well as the objects that strike them. People are always pitching a new golf ball that flies farther. Baseball claims the balls have not changed. While the specifications may not have changed for weight, diameter and compression ratio. The one thing that has is the equipment that winds the balls and the environment they are wound in. AS the production of baseballs has moved out of the country the factories invested in newer machines to do the winding and this has resulted in a more consistent ball. The covers are still sewn by hand no one has invented a machine to my knowledge to do that.

41. 
    ronbudgell | Sep 13, 2004 10:49pm | #32

    I've never had a hand on a titanium hammer but I think of a light axe I have for canoe trips. It has a 1 3/4 pound head with a handle longer than your average 2 1/2 pound axe. The light head and the long handle both let me get enough speed on the swing that I can sink that axe deeper than most people can sink a 2 1/2.

    It's the speed of the strike, not the metal of the hammer head that sinks the nail.

    The best solution for us all might be to drive nails using a small pebble on a ten foot string. We could get some real speed with that.

    Ron

42. 
    dieselpig | Sep 14, 2004 12:07am | #33

    I can hit a golf ball really far with my Titanium Stilletto.

    Much further than I can drive a nail with me Pappy's old Wilson 3 wood.

    What do you rocket scientists make of that?

43. 
    Hooker | Sep 14, 2004 12:19am | #34

    I was thinking of this thread today, as I was laying sheets down onto 2000 sq ft of floor trusses.  I love my 20 oz craftsman wood handled waffle head for framing.  I was cursed with the carpal tunnel syndrome a while back, and the little bit longer wood handles have done wonders.

    One thing, though.  The last hammer I bought weighed about 8 pounds.  It also connects to a hose connected to a big red loud thing.  No matter how light the hammer is, a person shouldn't need to use one all the time!

     

44. 
    jonblakemore | Sep 14, 2004 06:48am | #42

    >>>"I can hit a golf ball really far with my Titanium Stilletto.

    Much further than I can drive a nail with me Pappy's old Wilson 3 wood.

    What do you rocket scientists make of that?"

    Uhhh, you suck at golf? 

    Jon Blakemore

45. 
    blue_eyed_devil | Oct 06, 2004 02:20am | #85

    Martha, it does not deliver a dead blow.

    It is the speed, both ways.

    blueIf you want to read a fancy personal signature...  go read someone else's post.

46. 
    Dinosaur | Sep 13, 2004 05:19am | #14

    Mike, if I cared about my golf score, I woulda sold my clubs years ago, LOL! I learned my first season on the links that golf is not a game of skill...it's a game of nerves. If I could steady down and make the same moderately good swing every time I'd be playing in the mid 80s...but instead, I shoot in the low 100s and hit one or two spectacular shots per game that I can babble on about like an idiot for a week or two. The rest of the time, I spend in the woods looking for that little white sphere and thinking about the Shandygaff I'm gonna have at the 19th hole....

    WHOCK! Ahhh.... Look at that ball fade! Right over where I wanted it! (Caddy! Hand me my machete, will you?)

    Dinosaur

    'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?

47. 
    Shep | Sep 14, 2004 03:26am | #37

      Wooden woods, huh.

      You really are a dinosaur! :)

48. 
    Dinosaur | Sep 14, 2004 05:31am | #39

    Yeah...and steel shafts, too.

    But like Hammertime said, I can swing that big fat-head axe-handled framer happily all day, as well or better than kids half my age...so why should I apologize for preferring it?

    View ImageDinosaur

    'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?

49. 
    ProDek | Sep 14, 2004 06:33am | #41

    That looks like an Olympia tools 25 oz.

    If it is that thing has a real meat tenderizer for a striker when you first buy one.

    What did you wrap the handle with?"Rather be a hammer than a nail"

    Bob

50. 
    Dinosaur | Sep 14, 2004 05:50pm | #45

    The handle is wrapped with hockey tape. Very similar to the 'friction tape' my dad used to keep in his workshop 50 years ago, which I can't find anywhere nowadays. He wrapped all my baseball bats with that. The stuff is wonderful; on hot days when your hands are sweaty and slippery, the tape gets sticky and you don't wind up slinging it across the site by accident.

    Interesting you should identify that hammer as an Olympia; I've been wondering who made it for years. I've bought two of these framers and a little axehandled 16-oz. claw hammer for finishing work, from Canadian Tire (Canada's version of Western Auto), where it was sold under their house-brand label, Mastercraft. It is their model CF-1. Under that label, they sell an excellent line of auto mechanics' hand tools, mediocre-to-decent power tools (mostly made by Ryobi), and crappy screwdrivers by the bucketful.

    This framing hammer did indeed come with a serious, mean-looking waffle face. Only waffle head I've ever seen that was sharper and more aggressive was by Vaughan (you can see part of the face of the Vaughan framer in the bottom of that photo, but that hammer has almost never been used).

    Sadly, CT has discontinued this model from their catalogue. So when I wear it out, I'm gonna have to find an Olympia dealer, I guess....

    Dinosaur

    'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?

51. 
    moltenmetal | Sep 15, 2004 03:06pm | #59

    Wow- Dinosaur admits to having some Mastercraft stuff in his toolbag! <grin!>  You, me, and just about every other Canadian, eh?  Whatever works! 

    Ages ago when I was a framer's helper, we used 24 oz waffle-face framers but were driving exclusively common nails- no spirals.  I found the waffle face made the world of difference- nails went where you told them to go, and you could swing much harder with more reliable results.  Seldom bent a nail, once I had the wrist and forearm strength (and practice) to swing properly.  But once I got home, I found that the waffle face was, for me at least, absolutely no good with spiral nails.  The waffle seemed to resist the twist as the nail went in and I ended up bending far more nails than normal.  Am I missing something, or is this just common knowledge and I'm a bit slow on the uptake (again!)?

52. 
    Sphere | Sep 15, 2004 03:51pm | #60

    ya missed the barge..they are called SCREWS...there is a thing made for them, a hunk of steel with a cross on the tip..you can even put one in a newfangled thing called a drill.  {G} 

    Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

    Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations. 

53. 
    moltenmetal | Sep 16, 2004 04:00am | #65

    D'uh- dose tings wot 'round here dey calls PiffinNails?

    So- what you're saying is I should save myself a lot of trouble, chuck the big box of Ardox nails I bought and get out the old 28 oz printed head meat tenderizer again?  Not looking forward to what my thumb'll look like until I get the hang of it again after all these years! The palm nailer seems to drive 'em OK, so maybe I won't chuck them completely.

    Gotta admit, though- Ardox nails hold a lot more solidly than common nails.  Doubt the spirals on air-driven nails make much difference (the glue on them might, though!)- but driven by hand, those Ardox nails are a reason to do the job right the first time (since fixing it afterwards is such a b*tch!)

    Dino- I do have the usual collection of Crappy Tire screwdrivers and various other hand tools.  Any power tool that will see more than casual use, I do my homework and buy the good stuff.  Gotta admit, though, a few months back I bought a Chinese 7" angle grinder from Princess Auto (for you Americans, Princess Auto is sort of Canada's answer to Harbor Freight, with surplus stuff thrown in with the import stuff for good measure) for $38.00 CDN or so- quality's probably on par with Mastercrap, it's got lots of oomph, noisy as hell but doesn't vibrate much at all- and  best of all it saves my good saw from abuse when it's time to cut a little concrete!  The $13 Chinese diamond blades they sell are surprisingly good too.  

    The M/C wrenches and sockets I've got are just re-branded Gray Tools, so they're not half bad (dunno if they're still doing that or if they've started making them in China too). And if a screwdriver breaks, I just take it in and they give me a new one free.  I'm on my third carbureter screwdriver- they're great when nothing else will fit...

54. 
    Dinosaur | Sep 15, 2004 06:37pm | #61

    Not much I dislike more than having to work with twisted nails. Guy who invented those things had a twisted mind if ya ask me....

    Yeah, I keep a few items from CT in the kit--I even bought one of their portable table saws a few years ago and have been trying to destroy it ever since, with no luck. (It's a Ryobi in a navy-blue suit, I think.) Advantages: light, inexpensive, plenty of balls for ripping framing lumber, can toss it in the truck and leave it there with no danger of it getting busted or heisted. Disadvantages: Noisy like you wouldn't believe, vibrates like an angry bear, and setting up the extension tables is a minimum half-hour job. Also the fence bends too easily when ya heave it across the site cause it slipped and made ya ruin the last piece of melamine ya had to cut for those cabs....Dinosaur

    'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?

55. 
    ronbudgell | Sep 15, 2004 07:17pm | #62

    When I first moved to Nova Scotia and people started putting spiral nails into my hands, I told the crew I was working for that the dam things had to be a Nova Scotian invention because, like the crew, they were twisted and lost their heads easily.

    Ron

56. 
    Dinosaur | Sep 15, 2004 07:38pm | #63

    Ba-dum BOM!

    Ah, yes, the one-liner ain't dead yet...

    Dinosaur

    'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?

57. 
    jrdiblumber | Sep 16, 2004 06:42am | #66

    try an elecrtical supply house for friction tape or check in the electrical tape section of your hardware store

    Good judgement comes from expierience and a lot of that comes from bad judgement.

58. 
    Dinosaur | Sep 16, 2004 09:42pm | #67

    Uh, that's exactly where I can't find the stuff already...LOL. All I see around these days is good ol' black pvc, plus 5-pax of coloured pvc for coding things.

    Anyway, Renfrew Tape's got the puck pretty much covered with standard black or white cloth hockey tape. Not much I haven't already fixed using that stuff. I once taped a XC ski student's foot to the ski with it when she broke her binding out in the bush, and several times I have wrapped a split/delaminated ski with it to get the student back to the chalet.

    Hey! What with the NHL locked out, maybe prices'll on hockey tape'll drop and I can stock up a few cases, LOL....

    Dinosaur

    'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?

59. 
    jrdiblumber | Sep 17, 2004 06:02am | #71

    Try doitbest.com search under friction tape I know for a fact that they have it.

    Good judgement comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgement.

60. 
    Dinosaur | Sep 17, 2004 07:41am | #72

    Thanks. I'll try that.

    Dinosaur

    'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?

61. 
    Sasquatch | Sep 16, 2004 10:59pm | #68

    Some bicycle shops carry handlebar tape that might work.Les Barrett Quality Construction

62. 
    Dinosaur | Sep 17, 2004 12:28am | #69

    You're right about handlebar tape being good stuff. Only problem is the price. I can get a pack of 6 rolls of hockey tape for about nine bucks; if I go to the bike store, one tiny little roll of handlebar tape--just enough to do one set of bars once--is about 9 bucks....

    Dinosaur

    'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?

2. 
   professor | Sep 13, 2004 04:20am | #4

   Dino,

   YOu hit the nail on the head(no pun intended).... well ok , so I did like the play on words, so sue me LOL.  Seriously it is because of the faster swing.  I have wondered this myself and have been thinking about getting one.  So the other day I was in my favorite tool store and picked up a vaughn titanium and swung it several times.  Then I imediately picked up a 25oz hart framer (both with the strait handle to compare apples to apples) and I was amazed at how much faster I could swing the titanium .

   at least half again if not more.  and both the same size (physically) and same length handle.  Bottom line is that I am going to get one with the interchangeable heads .  I have been swinging a 30 oz. estwing for the past dozen years or so although I don't frame everyday.  I love that hammer and it doesn't bother my elbow but I get tired of the extra weight in my apron all day. It adds up.

   P.s Ever wonder why titanium golf clubs have become so popular?  Faster club speed that's why.  Same principle with the hammer

   Later.

   Mark

1. 
   xMikeSmith | Sep 13, 2004 04:32am | #7

   professor...er... mark..

   ah doan think so... the clubhead speed is the the same depending on the length of the shaft..

    the ball goes farther because of a cmbination of a harder striking surface and a trampoline effect off the face..

    witht  the hammer, again.. this olde arm is NOT swinging it any faster...

    the metal is harder...... anyways.. let's look it up..

    one, or both of us, is wrong about the hammer....Mike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

1. 
   professor | Sep 13, 2004 04:46am | #10

   Mike ,

   You are wrong

   Dino stated(correctly) that the equation for force is mass times weight equals kinetic force.  It IS the faster head speed that makes up the difference .  Physics does not lie. And there is no contradiction here. It simply comes down to the lighter head weight being made up by faster speed.

   Get your two hammers or better yet get something like what I described  (25 oz ) and then compare it to your titanium.  Do one and then the other.  there is a big difference.  And make sure the hammer lengths are the same because a longer handle will also increase head speed to a point.  It has nothing to do with titanium being harder. It is because it is much lighter for the same size physical mass ( not weight).

   It is also the same priciple for baseball players trying to get away with corking their bats.  They can swing the bat faster  and still get the same force as with a heavier bat.  Because the weight is compensated for with the greater speed.  And in their case it gives them a fraction of a second longer to look at a pitch which can be critical in their business.

   With your golf clubs you can still have the nice big head on the club which gives you a bigger sweet spot on the club and yet still swing it fast enough to pound the ball

   All because titanium is lighter

2. 
   CapnMac | Sep 14, 2004 12:22am | #35

   All because titanium is lighter

   Isn't that lighter for the same strength of material?  I seem to remember there's some mass components involved, too.  The difference between a 16 and a 20 ounce framer is onlt a quarter pound (4 ounces), but it's how that quarter pound is distributed--isn't it?  The head (peen if we wish to be pedantically accurate) is limited in its dimensions to remain practical. 

   (Arrgh, I'm thinkig about how the old Estwings had that long, skinny, "neck" behind the peen in the lighter weights--the flashbacks, the flashbacks <g> . . . )

   And, of course, we're all applying physics to a subjective assesment of how a hammer feels in the hand.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)

3. 
   DavidThomas | Sep 17, 2004 02:26am | #70

   "Dino stated(correctly) that the equation for force is mass times weight equals kinetic force."

   Oops.  You're both wrong. 

   Momentum is mass times velocity.  It is always conserved.  Momentum goes someplace in any collision.  Maybe into the earth, ultimately, but it goes somewhere.

   Kinetic Energy is one half mass time velocity squared = 1/2 M V V.  Kinetic energy is conserved in an elastic collision.  In an  inelastic collision, some kinetic energy goes into heat and breaking things.

   So a 50% faster hammer swing increases the momentum by 50% and the kinetic energy by 125% if the mass stays the same.David Thomas   Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska

4. 
   BillBrennen | Sep 17, 2004 09:22am | #73

   David,

   I was waiting for you (or someone) to post the KE formula.

   "Kinetic Energy is one half mass time velocity squared = 1/2 M V V.  Kinetic energy is conserved in an elastic collision.  In an  inelastic collision, some kinetic energy goes into heat and breaking things. So a 50% faster hammer swing increases the momentum by 50% and the kinetic energy by 125% if the mass stays the same."

   Setting aside handle mass for simplicity, can the 14 ounce titanium head hit like the 28 oz steel head IF YOU SWING IT 50% FASTER? 25% faster gets you into the energy range of a steel 22 oz head. But there has to be more to it than the mass, because otherwise a wide-faced 14 oz steel hammer would do just as well as the 14 oz titanium. ( After all, you wouldn't expect a lead hammer to drive the nail very well. Materials DO matter. The problem is that we can't see any difference between the steel and titanium hammers as/after they hit the nail, so the difference is not obvious like the lead hammer would be.)

   Could it be that the elastic transfer describes a different curve against time at the moment of impact and just afterwards, as the energy is transferred to the nail? People report that the Ti hammer makes a different sound. Maybe it just delivers more of the KE to the nail, and less goes into noise, sting to the carpenter, and other wasted motion? Somebody could do some ultra-fast photos of the strike zone and maybe these differences would show up in the pictures.

   The squaring of the velocity component in the energy equation is what makes high speed events so different from the slow events we are used to experiencing. I remember my dad telling me how very fast bullets can be split in half by striking the edge of a leaf just right, because it requires less energy to cleave the lead than it does to suddenly accelerate the leaf to the bullet's speed. End of science rant.

   Being mentally hammered,

   Bill

5. 
   moltenmetal | Sep 17, 2004 02:57pm | #74

   Bill- don't these titanium hammers have steel striking faces?  I would imagine a titanium striking face wouldn't last very long- even if it was one of the super-strong "beta" grades used in aircraft etc.

   Titanium does have one key mechanical property difference that I'm aware of:  commercially pure titanium has roughly 1/2 the modulus of elasticity of common steel or stainless steel.  No doubt that has something to do with the energy transfer kinetics (what exactly I have no idea- you'd know far better than I would), but you'd think that would be seriously messed up by the steel striking face.  Maybe the striking face is thin enough not to matter much.

   If these hammers work as reported, it's not just because of kinetic energy or momentum due to a faster swing, otherwise you'd get the same effect out of a lighter steel hammer with a longer handle.  It has to involve the energy transfer to the nail somehow, for sure.  Bet there's a mech eng behind one of these hammers who's just dying to explain it all to us in gory detail- maybe somebody can send them an e-mail.  A "How Stuff Works" article on titanium hammers would get the job done too!

6. 
   BillBrennen | Sep 20, 2004 12:40am | #79

   You know, I have wondered about the steel face on those bimetal hammers myself. There are plenty of hammers made of titanium without any steel, and I was confining my comments to those for sake of identifying the active principle in a situation with the fewest variables.

   The waffles on Ti hammers are said to wear faster than steel. This is partly due to choice of alloy, and partly due to the grain structure of cast, versus forged heads. I only know of one company selling forged titanium hammers (HB Tool) and have not gotten one because they are backordered until January. Having trouble getting the proper alloy, is what I was told last week.

   All the good steel hammers are forged, that I know of. Forging is how one gets toughness with hardness. I have read about broken claws on high-dollar Ti hammers, and it is due to cast heads, I am certain. That is why I want a HB Tool framer. They did tell me that they have the deck and finish hammers, just not the target face framer. (They use concentric circles instead of cross-hatching for traction on the nail.)

   A "What's the Difference" article comparing the two metals used in hammerheads would be great, I agree.

   Bill

7. 
   ronbudgell | Sep 17, 2004 02:59pm | #75

   I think a lead hammer would work better than steel because no energy would be diverted into making it rebound. You would have to pay a price for this efficiency, of course.

   Ron

8. 
   moltenmetal | Sep 17, 2004 04:23pm | #76

   A good deal of that energy would go into displacing lead and heating it up in the process- that's one part of the inefficiency in energy transfer you're talking about.

9. 
   ronbudgell | Sep 17, 2004 04:36pm | #77

   You're right. I was thinking about having to buy a new hammer for every nail, though.

   Ron

10. 
    BillBrennen | Sep 20, 2004 12:50am | #80

    Ron,

    As regards the lead hammer, I have to concur with Moltenmetal that the energy would not transfer efficiently because the lead is inelastic, and the energy of each strike would largely be absorbed by the lead as deformation/waste heat. Lead is used in soundproofing because it is limp plus massive - absorbs energy.

    The ideal hammer for nailing would transfer 100% of the kinetic energy to the nail, and do it in such a way that the nail is not deformed past its own elastic limit, so that all the energy goes to propel the nail into the wood. Imagine a tungsten carbide hammer, and the effect it would have, likely mushrooming the nailhead, which would be energy unrecoverable for driving purposes. Kind of the shoe on the other foot, as compared to the lead hammer. Maybe titanium is in the sweet spot right at the middle of this continuum?

    Bill

11. 
    Sasquatch | Sep 21, 2004 04:59pm | #81

    Speaking of titanium...

    Last year I bought one of the $50 Ti nail pullers from Amazon.  This was after I had broken the claws on two Estwing nail pullers.  The Ti puller was much lighter on my belt, and the extra handle length gave me lots of leverage.  Unfortunately, the aggressive design of the claws made quite a mess compared to the Estwings.

    Anyway, I just completed pouring a foundation for a 16X16 addition I am doing for a neighbor.  I don't normally do foundations; however, he persuaded me to do the job.  I don't normally do roofing either, but he felt more comfortable convincing me to do the work after seeing me do another roof nearby.  Bottom line is I am doing everything except drywall, which I swore off after my previous two jobs.

    BTW, I agreed to do the foundation on the condition that I build the forms, which in materials comes to about what it costs to rent a set of metal forms.

    So I shot the RAMSET into the bottom of the forms every other bay.  When it came time to remove the forms, I decided to pull the hardened pins with my Ti nail puller.  I had broken one of the jaws on an Estwing puller while removing a hardened nail.  The Ti worked like a charm for two nails and the handle broke on the third.  Next time, I will cut out the area around the nails with my sawzall and destroy a couple bucks worth of lumber rather than my $50 puller.

    The rest of the pins were much easier to remove.  I simply tilted the forms down and the three pins in each one came out as easy as carrots in a garden.  I had a brief thought that a 2X4 is over three times as strong as titanium.

    The best part of doing the forms and pouring myself is that tomorrow I will start building on the most level, plumb, and square foundation I have ever worked on.  The j-bolts are even in straight.  I am looking forward to it like a kid waiting for Christmas.Les Barrett Quality Construction

12. 
    BillBrennen | Sep 22, 2004 08:18pm | #82

    Hi Les,

    When pulling 2x4's shot to footers, I have had good luck with a BIG crowbar under the wood and pry up the whole thing. 4' Fulton Wrecker is my favorite. Can you get your money back on the cat's paw? Having the handle break seems to me like it proves a design flaw. Stiletto ought to pay you the refund just for the value of the knowledge gained. Did it break in the part where the open trusswork is? Those things looks to be cast; it is a credit to the metal that they hold up at all.

    Bill

13. 
    Sasquatch | Sep 22, 2004 11:39pm | #83

    This is how it looked.  I think it deformed a bit too, before breaking.  I'm not sure how I could get with the Stiletto folks.  Maybe I will try the net.Les Barrett Quality Construction

14. 
    BillBrennen | Sep 23, 2004 08:38am | #84

    Hi Les,

    Thanks for posting the pictures. Right after I last posted, I had a mental image of the tool failing at just that point. (This was after checking out the pic on Amazon.) With titanium so light, why do they have to get all clever casting voids into the thing to save more weight? Cool factor, I guess.

    My steel Jap-claws would NEVER fail like that. Stiletto owes you big-time, IMHO.

    Bill

15. 
    DavidThomas | Sep 17, 2004 11:55pm | #78

    Yes, a 31.5 oz hammer has the same kinetic energy as a 14 oz hammer traveling 50% faster.

    Different materials hit differently.  A lower force over a longer time obviously has different effects.  Taken to an extreme, you can press with 10 pounds of force on a 16d nail forever and it will never move into a 2x4.  But that same force x time over a shorter time can overcome the resistence of the wood.

    And, as you say, at very high speed, some of our intutive understanding doesn't apply. 

    Our ability to sense hardness is poor once you get past butter and pillows.  Asphalt seems reallyhard to my thumb.  But runners have much less repetetive stress injuries on asphalt than on concrete.  Because concrete is harder.

    Also, how much bounce you get make a difference.  More bounce imparts more momentum to the object but less kinetic energy.  Hence the difference behavior of a dead-blow hammer versus a metal one.  With wood or leather mallet in between.  So is Ti bouncier than steel?  Farther away from a dead-blow?David Thomas   Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska

2. 
   Dinosaur | Sep 13, 2004 04:46am | #9

   What you say about swing speed on the hammer makes sense in a way; your arm has less mass to accelerate in a short arc over a short period of time, so you ought to be able to hit the nail with the hammer moving at a higher impact speed.

   It's not as true for golf clubs, though: the arc is much longer, and the time from swing initiation to impact is correspondingly longer. So impact speed probably isn't much different from one type of club to another. The average recreational golfer has a maximum swing speed he cannot exceed without blowing strike accuracy all to hell... and for most of us, it ain't that fast. My A2BXwife, a former youth champion at this sport, once proved to me I could hit a ball twice as far on a regular basis if I would only slow down my swing and stop trying to drive the #$%?%$# thing into the next parish.

   So...did I slow down my swing? BWAAAAHHAHAHAHAHAHA....

   Dinosaur

   'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?

3. 
   jrdiblumber | Sep 15, 2004 04:57am | #51

   E=MC squared  if the ratio od mass to speed is equal for two hammers then they should provide the same driving force. titanium can be swung faster.

1. 
   Dinosaur | Sep 15, 2004 06:21am | #53

   No, no, no! You've got it all wrong!

   e=mc² applies to URANIUM hammers, not titanium ones...!

   View Image

   Now there's a hammer with some serious bang for the buck....

   Dinosaur

   'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?

1. 
   jrdiblumber | Sep 15, 2004 06:30am | #54

   Gotta get me one of those. it would be great for finish work. and the occaional single hit on rebar spikes.

2. 
   Dinosaur | Sep 15, 2004 06:48am | #55

   Yeah...it'd give the phrase 'finish' work a whole new meaning....Dinosaur

   'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?

3. 
   jrdiblumber | Sep 15, 2004 06:54am | #56

   Look at it this way. no punch list work. and if they dont pay you well.

   Dont get mad get even.

   Good Judgement comes from expierience and a lot of that comes from bad judgement.