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In my neighborhood I have noticed several buildings getting a makeover with a stucco type system. They apply foam, then fiberglass mesh and than a thin coat of what appears to be stucco.
What is this system? How durable is it? Fireproof? Cost? Where can I find more about it applying it myself?
A high-performance single-family home builder shares tips from his early experience with two apartment buildings.
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Replies
I think you are seeing a commercial product being installed - DryVit comes to mind. Looks like sort of like stucco when hardened but is really some sort of a plastic. Google Dryvit and see what you get.
Don't think this is a DIY project due to specialized spraying equipment. Might be wrong.
Luck!
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
The stuff I have seen is trowled on, not sprayed.
Didn't see the installation - may have been troweled. Assumed spray, didn't see any surface pattern to suggest troweling.
Looked kind of reminisent of a popcorn type finish.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
termites love it, they will tunnel behind the foam to the attic.
I can believe that! We have plenty of subterranians here, always hungry and looking for their next snack.
The applications which I have seen in Delaware for this type material have all been on commercial structures - steel, block, crete, etc. the termites don't seem to be an issue.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
I work at a residential design firm in massachusetts. We have used this product in many high end custom residnces where clients wanted a "florida look". "dryvit" is one product and another which is the same thing essentially is manufactured by a company called Sto. If you decide to give your home this type of a treatment I would also consider accenting it with a product made by "Canamould" whick is another foam product with a spray finish applied to it that can be used for window trim, quoins, keystones, cornices etc. These products are available in many different colors and textures.
If you do decide to use these products you MUST find a qualified contractor who knows about the products and how to install them. You need to provide expansion joists and it must be properly installed so as not to trap moisture between the foam and the sheathing. Not do it yourself by any means.
I didn't think this was DIY -- Dryvit is a brand name -- our state sprayed it on the outside of a new slot machine casino in Dover and I photographed the finished installation for some agency or other.
Interesting material in that it looked similar to stucco from a distance, however, was relatively slick when touched. Considering the casino sits in the shadow of Dover Downes Speedway and next to a major 4 lane road ( read as "dirt / rubber in the air"), I thought the relatively slick finish might make for easy cleaning / power washing.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Depending on where you are (fill ALL in yer profile, dang it>G<), it might be this stuff:
http://www.grailcoat.com/
Yeah that is definately Dry'vit......
Dryvit is a brand name, but the system is commonly known as dryvit, no matter what brand you use (STo sonowall, ect.) Kinda like tissues are known as kleenex.
Anyway, all the stuff I have ever done is troweled on. Foam with a blue or oange mesh basecoated in with something that looks similar to thinset (they say it contains sylicone) They trowel that on and smooth the edges with a wet sponge, then the finish is a latex product, and you can get pretty much any texture that you want. I´ve heard you can even mix latex paint into the finish to change the color, but not sure on that. It comes in different colors though.
It´s neat stuff if done right, and in the midwest it is really big, not only in commercial, but residencial is catching on. You need a proffesional contractor to do it, cause, like someone else said, the flashings and joints are really important or you could have a real mess down the road.
I think it might even have some insolation value (1 inch styrofoam is like r14?) but that is probably to be saved for a different discussion.
Edited 10/7/2005 11:07 pm ET by custombuilt
>Dryvit is a brand name, but the system is commonly known as dryvit, no matter what brand you useWe see it most commonly referred to as EIFS.>Anyway, all the stuff I have ever done is troweled on.Most applications are troweled rather than sprayed. When we use it we spray it be/c of the compound curves and odd shapes we're dealing with.>Foam with a blue or oange meshFYI, the colors of the mesh signify their "hardness" with the stiffer ones picked for where the most dent resistance or abrasion resistance are required. White is also used, but is quite soft.>basecoated in with something that looks similar to thinset (they say it contains sylicone) The generic term is Acrylic Base Coat...sticky as all getout, but no silicone that I know of. Makes a good additive for things like the mortar used to apply cultured stone.>I think it might even have some insolation value (1 inch styrofoam is like r14?)The insulation board is probably 3.5 - 5 R per inch. The rest of it adds no insulation value.
Edited 10/8/2005 1:54 pm ET by CloudHidden
Thanks for the corrections.....
The name dryvit just comes from my intake in the midwest, and the tradesman there. I've done several installs through a company I used to work for, but I only know the hands on aspect, because I never went to the training.
Guess the boss didn't want to send me on the week long paid training course.......plus he already had 2 trained guys on the sight, and I guess that was all that was required.
When in doubt, get a bigger hammer!
Dryvit. A latex like epoxy with an aggregate of sand. Make sure you have a licensed qualified contractor apply it. It's ok if done right but there are lawsuits from Main to the tip of Fla and beyond because of this stuff.
I believe you all are talking about EIFS "Exterior Insulation Finish System"
There ya go.
> I believe you all are talking about EIFS "Exterior Insulation Finish System"
No, it's "Experimental Inadequate Fake Stucco" ;-)
-- J.S.
The biggest issue with these exterior finish systems is water and drainage management. That means designing and installing so water cannot get entrapped and damage the building. Drainage planes, weep holes, flashing details, sealant application methods, all are critical to the performance of the package.
EIFS exteriors are widely used in commercial buildings. Think big box store. Any kind of a big box store. Whether they are selling linens, craft supplies, or building materials, most all their facades, from New England down through Mississippi, across Texas, up through the Rockies, and up to the soggy Pacific Northwest, are faced in EIFS.
In some parts of the country EIFSs became embraced as a way to give a higher end look to residential construction. It almost ran rampant in the Carolinas. The demand outstripped the market's ability to develop competent applicators, and as a result, a whole lotta homes got synthetic stucco exteriors done by unworthy contractors.
Many lawsuits later, the manufacturers (Dryvit, Sto, Parex, etc.) all ended up taking the blame, because that is where the money was. None of the trial lawyers were interested in taking the Johnny Paycheck subcontractors to the courts.
The ironic thing was, that at the same time as building codes in the states of North and South Carolina were toughening up and even seeking to ban the use of EIFS in residential construction, they were slapping up rib joints, new Lowe's stores, movie theaters, shopping centers, throughway stop motels, and more, all faced in EIFS.
Take the advice here and hire a competent contractor to do it for you. It is not a DIY thing at all. You might be the best trowel jockey in town, but if you don't know how to do a window surround, you are asking for trouble.
Exactly correct Stinger.
I would also recommend using a Moisture Free Warranty Corp. certified contractor.
You said it.
Also since the lawsuit period, it is pretty much required for the contractors to go through training sessions, ect. to become certified and be able to buy the materials.
When in doubt, get a bigger hammer!
So is this EFIS and synthetic stucco the same thing?
Out here in the Great NW the word Dryvit has become a curse similar to LP siding. It substantially lowers property value.Wood is Good
Adam Greisz<!----><!----><!---->
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EIFS is becoming a black mark on house sales here in Northern NJ. Real Estate agents are being told about the potential problems, so houses with it are losing value or just not selling at all, regardless of how high end.
...that's not a mistake, it's rustic
Jeff,
I framed a ton of houses in the Morris, Somerset and Union county areas around the time that EIFS became popular. I got to see a lot of questionable things done that caused a ton of grief I'm sure.
Things like no escape route for water. No paper, flashing or membrane around openings, just foam board glued to plywood and some caulk. FOr a long time, foam board contact cemented directly to the plywood was the standard.
Even then we anticipated problmes but a lot of builders were in love with it.
Where I live now there are a few companies that have regular relocations. The Realtor I deal with showed me a memo recently from one of the biggest ones basically stating that if you choose to buy a home with any form of stucco over foam board, it will not be considered for purchase as part of your relocation process. She also said that as a national chain they were recieving similar memos across the country from almost any employer who purchased houses from employees as part of a relocation package.
A coworker used it on his house in Bergen, even though his father, the GC, recomended against it. A cost savings choice that left his house in a hot market and desirable neighborhood sitting for a year. Replaced it with real stucco (found one small area of leaks 2 years into its life) and the house sold immediately.
I see it going up on strip malls and hotels in the rain all over. ...that's not a mistake, it's rustic
By the way,
Verona? What happened to your White Castle?
It died a slow death of town pressure to keep the drunks driving through the crossroads of Bloomfield Ave, Rt 23 and Pompton Ave littering bellybomber packets all over. Now the town is upset that a hot dog joint wants to open nearby. I live right up the hill from the old White Castle location but I moved in 6 years ago, so I missed all of the fun....that's not a mistake, it's rustic
A relative who lives in VA bought a big house in '92 for $375K. After several years of increasing problems (leaks, moldy wallboards, etc.) and news stories about stucco troubles, he decided to have the house inspected. The EIFS caused rot on most of the sheathing and structural damage extends to the studs on the North side. Estimates to repair range from $75K to over $100K. The builder is long gone, so it's up to the insurance company and their lawyers to try and recover damages. We are all going to end up paying for this EIFS scam in higher insurance rates.
I would say yes. Real stucco is entirely a portland-cement-based facing, done in multiple coats over diamond lath. Total thickness is about 7/8", when you add up the scratch, brown, and finish coats.
Synthetic stucco, or EIFS as the manufacturers have come to call it, is an acrylic-based sequence of thin troweled-on coats, over a base of expanded polystyrene foam board. A fiber-mesh sheet film is bonded into the coating system's first coat, to tie things together and give the coating some impact strength.
Go to Sto or Dryvit's websites, and you can see all about this stuff.
I don't know about the rest of the country but in Minnesota a lot of insurance companies will not insure houses with fake stucco.
My aunt just sold her house in Minneapolis and before the buyers could get a loan they had to get the home inspected for rot because it has stucco. The house is old enough that it was not an issue.
Finally about a year ago I was talking to a contractor that specializes in stucco and he told me about a house that he was looking at as a expert witness in a court case. He told me that it was less than 5 years old and not worth saving it had a lot of problems structurally beyond the stucco, but all of the exterior wall had extreme levels of rot from moisture being trapped in them. The house had a large indoor pool that probably made the situation worse. He explained to me that the instructions provided by the manufacture did a great job of covering the their a$$, nobody could hold the tolerances they required. He also told me that this house probably originally cost over 5 million to build for the previous owner.
Sounds like your state reacted to the problems caused by bad installation much like the Carolinas.
I'll bet they are insuring the types of new buildings that are housing all the national retail chain stores, and chain restaurants. Go shopping. Go out to eat. You will see EIFS everywhere.
Those companies, Sto, Parex, Dryvit, etc., are most all European-based manufacturers, and they had their products in play in Europe for quite a while before they came here.
It all surely hints at a large gulf between what goes on in commercial contracting, and what is happening in residential.
Wow. I am imagining the water problems in a hot, humid climate! This stuff won't go away as long as there are motels and strip malls, but I can see it being banned from housing in many places....that's not a mistake, it's rustic
>So is this EFIS and synthetic stucco the same thing?No. EIFS (pronounced ee fis) is a system that includes the insulation, water management, and finish, while synthetic stucco typically refers to the finish coat, which is an acrylic elastomeric coating with aggregate of whatever size.We regularly use the synth stucco as a finish coat on our concrete domes, but do not use the full EIFS system.
Edited 10/8/2005 1:56 pm ET by CloudHidden
So is this EFIS and synthetic stucco the same thing?
Well, the Dyvit is "synthetic stucco" by definition.
It's only EIFS if you use expanded foam over an exterior sheathing (like Densguard--called Denshield by some, installed that way by others <oh, the threads . . .>), and then coat the foam with a stucco product.
Here, it's all "real" stucco, if sometimes with complex admixtures. But, two coats, brown and finish, the brown set in lath applied to the foam.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Moreso than most techniques, this one is definitely one where a skilled contractor is required. Because there is no drainage layer between the exterior finish and the framing, the exterior finish has to be completely watertight. Any leakage into the finish can end up in the wall cavity, leading to problems which are very likely to go undetected until the damage is done.
My brief web search on this stuff turned up a study by the Canadian Housing and Mortgage Corporation in the early '90s of a fairly large number of both residential and commercial properties finished using this system. They did an invasive inspection on each unit, and found defects in about 30% of the installations which would lead to the need for repair in the near future. A fairly high percentage were serious problems.
>Because there is no drainage layer between the exterior finish and the framing, the exterior finish has to be completely watertight.The system has since been revamped to include a drainage layer, I believe. But you're right about the need for skill and attention to detail.
What is this system? How durable is it? Fireproof? Cost? Where can I find more about it applying it myself?
Sounds like EIFS, which you can google for more info on.
It's largely a commercial system for creacint complicated facades inexpensively. The "better" EIFS installers use a two-coat system, a brown, and finish, coat. The better outfits will tint the finish coat, when allowed by the specs, otherwise it gets painted.
Most of the applications I have seen it used on are older buildings needing a facelift.
How stable is it over brick?
How stable is it over brick?
As stable as the brick, and how stable the foam is after being applied to the brick. For commercial rehab, we usually spec 5/8" hat channel shimmed level as the mounting point for the foam.
In rehab work, you also have to assume (with all of the associated risks in doing just that) that the moisture plane in the existing wall is good, and make provisions (oy, the arguments I have had getting this detailed right) to not block up weepholes and wickpoints.
Personally, I think that it's about a wash, stripping face brick out entire, and then replacing with EIFS. But, that's because in my experience, there's so little of the face brick left, or enough repaire & replacement, that leaving the 20% untouched in place seems a tad, well, dumb.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
On brick you don't need to put up the foam.....You can just basecoat in the mesh and then trowel your finish right over it.
We did this on several places, and also, for places like schools with heavy abuse it makes for a stronger wall.
How else are you going to get your foam on the brick? You can't do it with the windlocks, unless you replaced the screws with tapcons or something. The only other option would be sticking the foam into a layer of basecoat on top of the brick, but in my mind having a wall of styrofoam "glued" onto bricks isn't the strongest contraption.
just my 2 cents
When in doubt, get a bigger hammer!
On brick you don't need to put up the foam
Yeah, but it can confuse the EIFS Sub (or his estimator, or both) to not to. We use less than 1" sheets for it (often with some debate).Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
In NZ it's called EPS and http://www.rockcote.co.nz/Common/index.cfm are one of the larger promoters of the product. Over the years they have ironed out some of the bugs...specifically water entry problems and mould by using a rain screen or cavity. It has it's place when installed correctly.
As an aside to stucco in general. I've just finished reading a short article in the Oct 22 Awake magazine on "Shuba". An interesting old technique perfected in the Ukraine using nothing more than a broom and a stick to achieve fantastic textures and patterns. Worth the read.
regards
Mark
http://www.quittintime.com
Edited 10/13/2005 6:15 pm ET by MarkCadioli