What screws for Hardie Panel ?
dovetail97128
| Posted in Construction Techniques on
Need some experienced voices to help me here.
I need to spec a screw for Hardie Panel (4 x 8 sheets) being applied over ICF.
Anyone dealt with this before ? If so what screw do you recommend.
Prefer not to have a “truss head” screw because we are using batts over the fasteners.
They can’t get your Goat if you don’t tell them where it is hidden.
Replies
backer board screws ... aka ... Hardi Screws.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Thanks Jeff, I will google them.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
They stock 'em in the Big Boxes in the same section where the backer board is sold.
I like 'em. They sink nicely and have a self-countersinking head.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
"rock on" for durock and "backer on" for hardi. Made by itw buildex the same company that makes tapcons.
heres the site. http://www.itwbuildex.com/rockon.htm
Edited 3/5/2009 8:59 pm ET by qtsam2
Saw that the local Lowes marked those thin flathead screws down to $3.50 for a plastic tub of 150 screws.
Bill
What are you attaching to if it is over ICF?
If I was going to cover I would nail instead of screw.
ANDYSZ2
WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
That is a question and a quandary. Reading all the literature I can find the ICF I am using was tested and approved for concrete panel siding using screws,not nails. Panel manufacturers recommend screws. Nails don't meet the withdrawal test. Yet no one I have talked to locally has ever screwed it on. I am worried about over driving screws ( subs doing work) and having a problem , on the other hand it is the approved method.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
What surface are the screws going into?
And how is that surface attached to the ICF?
I really wouldn't worry about over screwing as you can set the cluth on a regular drill after a couple and pretty much control it.
My reason for nails is strictly selfish as it would be alot faster.
ANDYSZ2WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
Panels attaches directly to the ICF. (Felt first actually) over most of the building. On the lower 4' there is a detail for a 1" furr out to create a wainscote look on the exterior. This ICF brand uses polypropylene strips embedded in them.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
you can get them for the coalated semi-auto screw guns ....
zip, zip, zip ...
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I'd also be afraid of the panels blowing apart occasionally from a gun nail.
the panels have always seems more brittle to me than the siding.
plus ... I'd trust the backer screws more than roofing or ring shanked nails.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
In this situation both the ICF and Hardie or Certainteed board manufacturers require screws to meet the wind loading . One reason I was looking for the voices of experience with screws. Collated screw guns look like the way to go at this point. Talked to one of the ICF manufacturer's engineers today and he is personally going to go by an outlet and pick up some screws to test out in their ICF. He is supposed to call me back tomorrow.
My concern with the backer screws is making sure the cutting nibs at the tip don't create a problem with the polypropylene band in the ICF.
I may be being over cautious but would hate to get a call telling me that the siding is strewn across the countryside after one of our wind storms and discover that the screws pulled out.
Edited 3/6/2009 12:22 am by dovetail97128
"Talked to one of the ICF manufacturer's engineers today and he is personally going to go by an outlet and pick up some screws to test out in their ICF. He is supposed to call me back tomorrow."
that's cool ... keep us posted on that.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Just two weeks ago I put together a change order for an exterior soffit 320 ft long x 13' wide framed out of 16 gauge steel w/ prefinished hardie panels. It is at a loading dock and one side is saw toothed by the docks the entire length.
Hope we get it but also a little nervous. Angle cuts on about 60% of the sheets and exposed screw patterns. Mike
Small wheel turn by the fire and rod, big wheel turn by the grace of god.
Exposed screws I have used before with hardie. Truss head Stainless.
Used a 1/4" piece of masonite and made a pattern for the holes, "Glass" cutter or "spade point" drill bit.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
We were going to use a bugle head, nothing was spec'ed out. I guess well give them a choice, truss head makes more sense with more bearing.
Have you seen any paperwork showing truss heads are called for? Mike
Small wheel turn by the fire and rod, big wheel turn by the grace of god.
I will have to look at the info I have. Can't look until I return to the jobsite, maybe tomorrow. On my jobs it was archy spec'd.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Edited 3/6/2009 10:49 pm by dovetail97128
Missed the one that had a closer look at the screws on panels used inside the building. The slate blue trim is also a Hardie style board. Imported from Spain. As was the exterior stuff.
Denser and harder than the Hardie panel, also more brittle.
I am told Certainteed panels are more like the Spanish made stuff. Didn't here back from the ICF engineer today , message from company was he is on the road, talk to him Monday.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Forgive me for being slow but I still don't understand what you are trying to install over the ICFs. Lap siding, 4x8 sheets?
Additionally, why are you putting up felt paper? How are you putting up felt paper?
I have pretty extensive ICF experience with multiple brands. My first lap siding experience with them we used a sheetrock screw gun and hardi screws and "blind nailed". Since then we just use ring shank nails from a nail gun keeping a close eye not to over drive them.
With multiple installations across the states of Ky, and Tn over a dozen years we've never had the slightest problem with siding coming loose. The profile is simply too low for the wind to really get after it.
4 x 8 sheets of Hardie Panel. The specifications call for screws within the wind loading classification I am building in. I have talked to two manufacturers engineers and read the specs and all are in agreement , if they are going to warranty then I will use screws. I believe the issue is the low pressure effect from the wind on the lee side of the building. Here are the NER requirements from Hardie, see page #17. Tables 2a,b,c,
http://www.jameshardie.com/homeowner/pdf/ner-405.pdf
Wind Class "C" Now the ICF manufactures says that for them to warranty their side of the withdrawal requirements the fastener has to be a screw. If you are fastening into a metal strip in your ICF it reads to me that screws are what Hardie requires unless your ICF manufacturer will warranty their product against fastener pull out with a nail.
My problem is the particular ICF I have uses a polypropylene strip, not covered in the NER , so I have to go with the ICF manufacturers requirements and that is screws.
My reading of it was confirmed in e-mails and conversations with both parties. Felt is because local BO wants some type of weather barrier, ICF not withstanding. If I can't figure out a method of using the felt I will switch to building wrap, but I don't like the stuff personally.
Do you not use anything at all under your Hardie?
Edited 3/7/2009 11:30 am by dovetail97128
Screws it is. There is no doubt they are better albeit more labor intensive.
I have never done a barrier over ICF and never will. Although I have used multiple brands, for the past few years I've used Logix because it's stocked at one of our lumber yards. It has 2 3/4" of polystyrene for each "panel". The polystyrene is its own barrier.
Felt will be a waste of time and money and will only serve to soak up moisture with no air barrier between it and your siding.
No inspector should be allowed to require things that they know nothing about...as is the case with this knucklhead you are having to deal with.
I would have really been impressed with routing some vertical channels into the polystyrene to allow condensed moisture a drain path out of the wall cavity.
I've never done it...too excessive in my opinion but it would have shown the inspector knows something other than how to find your jobsite.
Weather barrier is an outgrowth of the acrylic stucco disaster here. It isn't just the local BO , State wide rule , but some BO in other areas don't follow through on it apparently. I am still hacking my way through this application of Hardie style panels to this particular ICF.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
"I am worried about over driving screws"
Use a drywall gun. Problem solved.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
That seems to be the solution. Never having applied concrete panel over ICF I was looking for the voices of experience.
Answers provided.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Grabber makes a screw especially for Hardie products. Call them.
http://grabberman.com/ScrewSelection.aspx?class=6&packtypeid=1&pkey=Fasteners%7cScrews%7cScrew+Selector&pval=1%7c25%7c0&pIds=CategoryID%7cProductTypeID%7cSelector
Mike
Small wheel turn by the fire and rod, big wheel turn by the grace of god.
Thanks, much appreciated.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I used nails, hand driven. But i took my time and drilled a pilot hole. I think they were double dipped 8D galvanized.
I also pre-painted all the cuts. I noticed the cut were starting to delaminate so I put a nice thick coat of paint on them.
Check the hardie documentation
Hardie recommends nails for its panels and siding. For steel studs it recommends bugle head #8 1-5/8" stainless screws. I found Grip-Rite primeguard plus #8 x 1-5/8 coarse stainless steel bugle head square drive screws at Home Depot in 1 lb. or 5 lb. packs.
There is not the depth adjusment control with a nail gun to provide the exact amount of penetration needed. Overdriving the nails in 5/16" Hardie panel is obviously going to cause problems as will not using a stainless steel fastener.
I've built a bunch with arxx ICFs and will agree that screws will hold better than nails of any kind, but beware that screws will strip out of the plastic quite easily if you're using a drywall type gun. I wouldn't use an autoloader with clutch - it's very hard to tell if you're stripping the threads. I've even gone so far as to predrill holes so it's even easier to feel when things are tight. If you are a production siding outfit then I'm sure colated screw guns are the way to go, but if labor rates aren't making your decisions then I'd get two drills - one to predrill and the other to seat the screw.