I recently learned that a sad mistake had been made on a building lot I own, in Upstate New York (I’m currently living in California).
A man who believed that he’d purchased my lot from another person who owns a different lot down the road, felled a number of mature trees on my property. These trees were an important feature to me. I’ve even written about them here on BT.
The man discovered his error, then tried to buy my lot from me, before telling me about the trees.
I’m curious how civil matters of this kind are best resolved. How is the value of the trees determined?
BTW, I called the town’s code enforcement officer and he volunteered to have a look at what had been done. He Emailed me today, sending a couple of photos. So I have documented evidence from an official source.
Replies
Sorry to say this but it sounds like it's time for a talk, then a lawyer.
That sucks! I have a friend who once had a bad neighbor. In order to improve the neighbors view, he whacked a couple of my friends trees. He then called to apologize, said he didn't realize the trees weren't on his property. I forget how it was resolved, I think they went on for many years simply hating each other.
Out of curiosity, does the absence of your trees happen to improve the view from his lot?
Oh man, that's tragic. A lot of mature trees are priceless- there is no amount of money that can actually replace them (in our lives). I feel for you. What trees/ how old?
I've heard of lawsuits over mature tree murder placing values of 25k/ tree and more.
k
They have things like stumpage costs and such that are figured in. Guess I'd feel the guy out and see if I wanted him removed from the gene pool, or if I felt he made a honest mistake. I would think that could go a long ways in determining how to react, or respond.Anyway, such acts can be considered criminal. You have tress pass, or he couldn't have gotten to the trees. If he profited from the act, you have theft (in civil, it would be conversion). If you get a criminal charge, that can be enough to pursue civil damages.
I'd probably talk to a lawyer and ask what type of damages you might expect in a successful lawsuit. Then tell the offender he can either pay now or hope not to pay later when you file.
There was a high profile situation not far from here where a sitting judge had a large number of mature trees removed from a public park in order to improve his view. IIRC he paid about $500K after being sued... or whatever it is they do to judges.
if he is not willing to compensate you for an amount you would think is fair... then a letter from a lawyer might be the next step....
either he personally.... or his insurance company ... should pony up
either he personally.... or his insurance company ... should pony up
I hadn't thought about insurance. He's the next door neighbor's adult son so would his homeowner's insurance come into play? What other insurance might there be for stupid mistakes?
BTW, thanks to ALL for the sympathy and the advice. I'm at a loss about how to handle this problem. It seems to have been an honest mistake. A second generation member of the family, clearing the front of the 2 acre lot in preparation for building a home.
Nonetheless, it's a serious, damaging error in judgement, one which can't be overlooked for the sake of friendly relations with the neighbors.
Edited 2/19/2009 12:27 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
well.....i learned a lesson when i had a straddle tree ( tree growing on the property line.....80% our side ) cut down for a customer... so naturally, my GL was in play...
in the end the abutter was wrong and dropped his action
call YOUR agent and see if your homeowner's would have covered you if the roles were reversedMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Generally, the liability portion of your Homeowner's Insurance does not cover deliberate acts. I'd have to hit him in small claims court - probably send him a Certified Letter first, with my carefully supported demand for payment, and a deadline to respond.Greg
you're right.....but the contention is that this was NOT an intentional actMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
That's where they can duke it out with the insurance company. I'd sure encourage the guy that did the cutting to report it to his own company. I'd present it in a friendly manner, "Hey, you might want to check with your Homeowners Insurance people."
If they get it reported, the insurance company will have to either deny it or pay it. If they deny it, they might state in writing that he did the deed, but it's not a covered loss. Their statement that their homeowner did the deed will help with the next step - Small Claims Court.
But they may take the stand that cutting the trees was a deliberate act, even though maybe he didn't know they weren't his trees. Now, if he had cut that tree, which didn't belong to him, and wasn't on his land, and it fell on the adjoining neighbor's car, house, fence, etc. - they may have to pay for the damage done, but not for the tree. But this is a little different.
I'd get two or three arborists, foresters, plant nursery landscapers to help with a written value of the trees, mainly from an aesthetic point of view, rather than as firewood !
Greg
That's where they can duke it out with the insurance company. I'd sure encourage the guy that did the cutting to report it to his own company.
If they get it reported, the insurance company will have to either deny it or pay it. If they deny it, they might state in writing that he did the deed, but it's not a covered loss.
That seems like the next step, let him know that it should be covered under his homeowner's policy and suggest that he check with the insurance company.
Generally, the liability portion of your Homeowner's Insurance does not cover deliberate acts.
Clearly it was a mistake so I don't believe that it could be called deliberate. There was no intent to willfully impose or to deprive anyone of anything.
No, don't misunderstand - the deliberate part was picking up a chainsaw to cut a tree. That was not an accident. The accident / mistake was that it was your trees.
Often, the answer with an insurance company is, "It depends"
He may be liable to you for the trees that were removed, indeed, I think he probably is, in the eyes of a court of law. But the insurance company could say that it's not a covered loss, because it was a deliberate act. Not that he intended to do harm - he may have truly thought he was on his own lot.
Hope it turns out well. As you recognize, no one can replace the trees, all they can do is try to determine a dollar value on your loss.
Greg
Edited 2/19/2009 1:20 pm ET by GregGibson
the deliberate part was picking up a chainsaw to cut a tree. That was not an accident. The accident / mistake was that it was your trees.
My point of view, based on a conversation with my insurance agent: It's the same as if he made a mistake about where the property line is and removed a tree which was on the neighbor's property. That's where the "personal liability" section of the HO's policy come in. He's covered for actions he takes which make him liable for replacement costs on the neigboring property.
Thanks for helping to clarify the issue.
call YOUR agent and see if your homeowner's would have covered you if the roles were reversed
I just spoke with a knowledgeable insurance agent here in SoCal, the one who advises me about homeowner's coverage on this house. She and I pondered and ruminated on the situation, as we've all been doing here.
In the end she said that it should be covered under the personal liability section of his homeowner's policy. I asked what the limit on that coverage usually is. She said $100K is pretty standard, as a minimum.
So the next question becomes, how to determine my loss. I'm not going to settle for a board foot lumber price from a local saw mill so I guess I'll need a lawyer to deal with the insurance company.
I sure do prefer having this handled by the insurance company and a lawyer, rather than going up against the neighbor in court.
Edited 2/19/2009 12:24 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
In Maine, this is not only a civil matter but handled as grand theft and tresspassing.
Best to sue in civil court tho IMO.
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That happened to a relative in ME some years back. Property line issues. It went to court. Judge found in relative's favor. Man had to pay lumbers worth in board feet and a very little in "pain and suffering". Pain and suffering, were laywers costs, hire a surveyor, hire a lumber estimator from a saw mill to figure the board feet. Relative and neighbor still not talking.
why does everyone want to give lawyers money down there? The guy made an honest mistake, someone ripped him off by selling him something they didn't own, he called you and offered to buy it again, what more can he do? Just tell him what you think the trees were worth and be done with it. Ain't nothing going to bring the trees back. btw .. they can transplant some pretty big trees these days, they won't replace what you had, but they will be where you want them and grow pretty fast!
I agree with Wane. Try to keep the lawyers away as long as you can, as far away as you can. You & the neighbor will both come out behind.
Can you contact an experienced real estate pro in the area, and ask them about similar lots (with mature trees) that have sold in the last few years? That would set a value.
Then ask about the current value of your lot in it's present condition.
Then ask the insurance company for the difference.
Then use the money to have several trees planted in the places where they suit you.
You win, because you have trees in the proper locations, away from future building / driveway / drainfield / etc location. You have several years for the trees to grow. They will never be the equal to the mature trees that are lost, but that can't realistically be replaced (unless your realtor finds a lot that meets your expectations).
Try to keep the lawyers away as long as you can, as far away as you can. You & the neighbor will both come out behind.
I'm not a big fan of most lawyers but there are many notable exceptions. Spending a few minutes with a good lawyer and paying him/her to write a letter can be an excellent investment.
You get a much better idea of where you stand and how to proceed, plus you have the lawyer's letterhead and a few well chosen phrases, working on the other person...for you.
sounds like you are never going to get along with this neighbor.
might as well sell it to him. and it puts you in the drivers seat when it comes to placing a value on the lot
or you could sue for damages then sell the lot off to a 3rd party
might as well sell it to him. and it puts you in the drivers seat when it comes to placing a value on the lot
I've been considering that option. The problem is that there aren't any more lots quite as nice as that one in that township. Still it's worth keeping in mind.
It would be common for a developer here who wanted to remove mature trees to be required to provide/plant a number of smaller trees of the same species. This might be another way to calculate damages even if you wanted to do the planting.
So if a developer wanted to take down a 24" DSH Red Oak he/she might be required to plan (4) 4-6" caliper new Red Oaks - 6" being the point at which (+/-) the tree starts becoming very difficult to get/transport/plant.
The point of this is that it is very easy to get a nursery to quote such a planting for a property and therefore directly determine the cost of 'making you whole'.
Jeff
The point of this is that it is very easy to get a nursery to quote such a planting for a property and therefore directly determine the cost of 'making you whole'.
That's another good suggestion. Thanks Jeff.
Tough call, you have 2 values. Aestetic/intrinsic and value of the wood it self. Veneer quality logs fetch a pretty dollar, some guys down here got nabbed stealing walnut trees from private property, and a few of those logs were valued at 5k and up.
I think the call to your agent as Mike suggested is a good starting point, but you cannot assign value to the loss of aestetics concretely, I don't suppose.
Good luck with whatever shakes out.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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there is my neighbor to the east of me he has 4 acres. The property behind us both was logged . Turns out logger encroached on neighbors property. Lawsuits filed etc. Anyway outcome was logger had to pay triple the market vaue of trees taken .
One question. By removing the trees, has the value of your lot been degraded? More damages.
Good luck.
One question. By removing the trees, has the value of your lot been degraded? More damages.
Well, it could be argued that by clearing the front of the lot, he's done me a service but that's pretty lame. I contend that the value of the lot to me has been degraded because the loss of those trees has changed the nature of the entire property.
"I contend that the value of the lot to me has been degraded because the loss of those trees has changed the nature of the entire property."
Hello damages! Time for the liar, er lawyer.
Just so I understand your dilema:
Do you own this land because YOU want to live there, or have some personal/family connection to it?
or
Do you own this land for development purposes only?
If it's the former, then you are dealing with a neighbor. Swallowing a little pride and negotiating something friendly and equitable between the two of you might be the best course of action. There are many stories here of people who go to war with their neighbors, none of them are pretty.
If it's the latter, then this is purely a business deal. No different than if he towed and scrapped a number of classic collector cars off your lot that he believed were abandond on his lot, or if he went and painted your barn orange because he thought he just bought it. He has to make it right. There is a reason for titles and land surveys.
Tu stultus es
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Look, just send me to my drawer. This whole talking-to-you thing is like double punishment.
Do you own this land because YOU want to live there, or have some personal/family connection to it?
It's my retirement home site. I bought it about fifteen years ago with that purpose in mind. It's near a number of places which are part of my retirement plans.
The lot, like the trees, is not easily replaceable. There are restrictions on sub-divisions and building in that area because of state forest lands and reservoirs.
therewas a news report where sombody build a house on the wrong lot. the legal land owner waited till the house was complete before complaining. The judge made the legal land owner pay the guy for the house because it improved its value.if onlt thing you want is money, sue him. if you just loves trees, make him plant new ones.
There is a state specific law in reguards to tree pochers. Can't remember the specifics, but it is extreemly expensive!
Man that sucks. Can you plant some new ones to grow before you build?
There is a state specific law in reguards to tree pochers.
So far it seems like an honest mistake with all the logs remaining on the property. That's what the man told me anyway so I'll accept that until I get back there this summer and see what's what. Then I'll get an arborist/nurseryman out there to do an inventory and write me an estimate for replacement costs.
If any valuable logs are missing I'll rethink my approach to the whole deal.
Man that sucks. Can you plant some new ones to grow before you build?
I'll have to see what options are possible, when I get back there and speak with the different advisors I'll need to consult.
Some of you may remember a thread I began a year or so ago, about building a tree house on this property. That's something I've wanted to do since childhood and it still fascinates me.
There were/are some large diameter, straight and tall hemlocks and other species which I had in mind for that purpose. I'm hoping that most of them are still standing, farther back on the 2 acre lot.
My best estimate is that most of the trees on the front 1/2 acre are history. I'm keeping my fingers crossed about the few really big ones that I had in mind for the tree house.
Transplanting is a good possibility for some smaller trees but the big ones need to be well rooted, to make them strong enough for a fairly large tree house.
Anyhow, I sent the fellow a letter today, telling him what I'd learned from my insurance agent and asking him to speak with his agent about covering his mistake.
I may also call a lawyer I'm acquainted with in that area but I think I'll wait on that, until I hear from him and/or his insurance company.
Edited 2/23/2009 12:00 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
I would not wait. If it can be proven that it is intentinal, it is a fine or make good x's 3!
I was thinking this afternoon about it. We had a man here in utica that cut trees on a city park that abbutted his land. It was very expensive!!!!!
Do you know where I can find that state law? I'd like to read it's provisions before speaking with anyone else.
Edit: I'm not out for blood here, just a reasonable settlement from his insurance company. I don't want to alter this young man's life to any great degree but I'd like him to understand that there are certain kinds of errors which can't be easily remedied.
If it requires some time and effort to pay for his mistake, I won't feel sorry for him. I've paid some dues in a similar way, several times. It's given me better judgement.
I think that's a good thing for all of us to appreciate on a serious level. It's something that translates easily into our personal lives as well.
Edited 2/19/2009 6:02 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
No. I will look around.
Check for a tree ordinance in the area your property is located in.From a quick search around the Google, it seems that many cities and towns in NY state have ordinances to protect trees, not just property. And if the trees in question were large and old enough, your neighbor might have run afoul of an environmental protection arrangement.Here's some info from Westchester Cty.
http://books.google.com/books?id=HuJvv97UHBMC&pg=PT227There's also this book Arboriculture Law in the Northeast
http://www.springerlink.com/content/w108153212488451/Something from Bedford, NY
http://www.bedfordny.com/town/code/tree.htmHope one of those gets you going on the right track.'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
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His property is a little further north of Westchester, if I rem,ember correctly. I can't lay my hands on the law about tree rustling, we need a lawyer with time on their hands.
we need a lawyer with time on their hands.
see above:-)
You bring up a good point. I believe I'll speak with the town's code enforcement officer again and ask him a few more direct questions on several subjects.
As I've said, my main concern is to recover my losses, not to make trouble for this young man. So I have to be careful, how I go about doing that.
Even so, it would be helpful to know what laws may have been broken.
Hey, thanks to all you guys who put some thought and effort into answering my questions.
I have a much better idea of how to proceed and I've already put some of your collected wisdom into action.
With Gratitude and Respect, Peter
I know the get even mind set types won't agree; but offer to sell him the lot at value before the cutting. Then go find yourself another one you like. No mater how this is settled you and he will be pizzed at each other for ever. Not a good way to go into retirement. It shouldn't have happened but in the end you will be happier if you get it behind you.
I know the get even mind set types won't agree; but offer to sell him the lot at value before the cutting. Then go find yourself another one you like.
If that were possible, I'd probably agree to do it but this kind of approved lot was very rare on the market in that area...fifteen years ago when I purchased it.
There are many very desireable features there, on that lot and in that very rural township, which have made it increasingly difficult to buy similar property and build there.
There are also restrictions on building due to surrounding state forest lands and a large reservior. New subdivisions aren't possible because the whole area is a watershed for the reservior. This is true of most of the Catskill mountain region where NYC's water supply comes from.
So my place is one of the few approved vacant building lots, still there.
Do you know where I can find that state law?
Here you go:
NY CLS RPAPL § 861 (2009)§ 861. Action for cutting, [fig 1] removing, injuring or destroying trees or timber, and damaging lands thereon 1. If any person, without the consent of the owner thereof, cuts [fig 1] , removes, injures or destroys, or causes to be cut [fig 2] , removed, injured or destroyed, any underwood, tree or timber [fig 3] on the land of another or on the common or other land of a city, village, [fig 4] town or county, or damages the land in the course thereof, an action may be maintained against such person for treble the stumpage value of the [fig 5] tree or timber or two hundred fifty dollars per tree, or both [fig 6] and for any permanent and substantial damage caused to the land or the improvements thereon as a result of such violation. Such reparations shall be of such kind, nature and extent as will reasonably restore the lands affected by the violation to their condition immediately before the violation and may be made by physical restoration of such lands and/or by the assessment of monetary payment to make such restoration. 2. In any action brought pursuant to subdivision one of this section, if the defendant establishes by clear and convincing evidence, that when the defendant committed the violation, he or she had cause to believe the land was his or her own, or that he or she had an easement or right of way across such land which permitted such action, or he or she had a legal right to harvest such land, then he or she shall be [fig 1] liable for the stumpage value or two hundred fifty dollars per tree, or both and reasonable costs associated with maintaining an action pursuant to this section. In such case, the defendant shall also be liable for any permanent and substantial damage caused to the land or the improvements thereon as a result of such violation. Such reparations shall be of such kind, nature and extent as will reasonably restore the lands affected by the violation to their condition immediately before the violation and may be made by physical restoration of such lands and/or by the assessment of monetary payment to make such restoration. 3. For the purposes of this section "stumpage value" shall mean the current fair market value of a tree as it stands prior to the time of sale, cutting, or removal. Stumpage value shall be determined by one or more of the following methods: the sale price of the tree in an arm's-length sale, a review of solicited bids, the stumpage price report prepared by the department of environmental conservation, comparison with like sales on trees on state or private lands, or other appropriate means to assure that a fair market value is established within an acceptable range based on the appropriate geographic area.
Wow! Thank you for taking the time to advise me and to dig up that statute. It's precisely what's I need, to understand how to move ahead.
One layman's question: The statute seems to say that I can expect to recover three times the local board foot value of the trees which have been felled, plus the cost to restore the property/forest to the condition it was in prior to the trees being felled. Is that an accurate interpretation?
I've learned from this thread and from talking to one of the professionals at Environmental Design, that it's possible to transplant trees of any size so that's the outcome I'm most interested in.
You might want to consult with a local lawyer, but I think what it means by restore is probably cleaning up any mess, filling in any ruts made by skidders, etc. I doubt it contemplates replanting trees, especially trees of similar size. While it may be theoretically possible, the cost to replace a 12 inch caliper tree, let alone a larger one, would be enormous and out of proportion to what the statute contemplates for damages.
do you have an opinioon on him waiting 'til later to evaluate the loss? My uneducated guess woul dbe the sooner he acts the better it will be for him. No?
If he waits too long, he may have trouble proving what was cut and when. In the typical legal action, he'd engage the services of a forester who could identify the trees and come up with a count for the various sizes.
In the case I'm working on now in Maine, my client allegedly [:-)] cut trees to clear room for a small cabin. Probably no more than 5000 square feet was cleared and the damages are almost 10K, with just a few bigger trees, but mostly 4-8 inch diameters.
If he waits too long, he may have trouble proving what was cut and when. In the typical legal action, he'd engage the services of a forester who could identify the trees and come up with a count for the various sizes.
Another point worthy of consideration. I mentioned in my first post that I'd spoken with the town's code enforcement officer and he'd volunteered to have a look at my lot. He Emailed me about what he'd observed, including two photos. So I feel pretty confident that he'd be able to testify about what's been cut...and when.
It sounds similar to the case you're working on, the circumstances and the size cleared, except that the trees were larger.
You might want to consult with a local lawyer, but I think what it means by restore is probably cleaning up any mess, filling in any ruts made by skidders, etc. I doubt it contemplates replanting trees, especially trees of similar size. While it may be theoretically possible, the cost to replace a 12 inch caliper tree, let alone a larger one, would be enormous and out of proportion to what the statute contemplates for damages.
After re-reading it, that interpretation seems accurate, even if it doesn't really restore the property to it's former condition.
There's quite a bit of fairly expensive machine work left, after felling large trees for a home site, mainly the removal of well rooted stumps.
But the cost of transplanting similar trees is much greater than three times the board foot price at a local mill, the amount suggested as appropriate compensation for their loss, in the statute.
FWIW, I've been given an professional tree mover's estimate of $3500 per tree, to transplant mature trees in large numbers from one local site to another, without payment for the trees. By mature, I mean 12-18 inch diameter.
Thanks again for your advice and the very useful background information. I expect that I'll be consulting a local lawyer, before this matter is finally resolved with the other party's insurance company. At a minimum, I'd like to discover what recent legal precedents there may be which favor transplanting trees. It could be that newer machinery has made that option sufficiently viable that the some courts may have widened awards to include that.
Edited 2/21/2009 2:27 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
I guess surveys aren't required in your area for purchase? Seems to me this guy skipped a few issues with deeding property/ title search, etc.
I guess surveys aren't required in your area for purchase? Seems to me this guy skipped a few issues with deeding property/ title search, etc.
No surveys required nor title searches either, if you're not borrowing money from a bank to make the purchase.
Nonetheless, tax maps are very easy to find and read, in the town hall and the county clerk's office. The SBL# (section, block, lot number) is always the primary identifier. It's written in bold letters on the map, right in the middle of the lot.
Tax records, also easily found, even on county web sites, include the name and mailing address of the owner, the SBL# and the street address of the property.
Many county web sites now offer satellite photos of each lot so, with all this help, anyone wanting to make sure of what they're buying should have no trouble discovering the facts.
I don't have the complete story about why this young man made such an error but it's clear that some simple steps were missed, along the way.
Was there some specimem trees on the lot?
Was there some specimem trees on the lot?
Space man? ;-) If you mean rare species or expensive veneer logs, not that I'm aware of. Most of the old growth trees are hemlocks, I believe. I never made an inventory of what was there.
Edited 2/21/2009 6:13 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
What county?
Just seems like some due diligence was not completed by the man who cut your trees. An accident? Probably, but easily preventable.
I know I wouldn't be very patient with someone who cut trees on my property but local protocols are different; with logging being a big industry here people are very careful of property lines and surveys.
I have no idea what you should do. Just writing to commiserate. What a nasty surprise.
We were the benificiaries of a similar situation when someone bought the lot we now live, on thinking he had bought the one next door, and logged it. He was happy to sell this one for a song and get out of town.
I would want replacement value of the trees, or maybe even literally have the trees replaced.
Not possible if over a certain size - not physically possible, not available.
Jeff
Somewhere they are available, for a price. That price is what HVC is owed.
Moving a very large tree (18" and up) is one thing ... but they're not commercially available from nurseries for sale much above 6" caliper. Some places specialize in 8"-10"-12" but that's pretty rare. Find a place to order the specific trees in the specific sizes to be delivered and planted? No way.
Jeff
There are probably some on the neighbor's property he could move...
;-)
I would want replacement value of the trees, or maybe even literally have the trees replaced.
I agree. It's the only way to approach a proper settlement. I expect that there are many legal precedents which support that point of view.
That is sad. How many, how big and what kind?
These guys can get you some new ones.
http://www.treemover.com/index.cfm
Does he have trees on his property that can be moved to yours? Tell him to get a tree spade and start digging.
Thanks for the link. Impressive sized trees they're able to transplant. It's good to know that tree spades of that size are around.
Q: What is the largest tree that can be transplanted?
A: Environmental Design has no limitations when it comes to transplanting giant trees. We have transplanted numerous giant trees well in excess of 1 million pounds, including the world's largest tree ever relocated.
THAT's what I'm talking about!
His honesty about the major error tells you about his character....let the homeowners insurance of the guy come to you...
Do everything in writing, Notarized, and sent Registered mail until you feel you need a lawyer...any over the fence conversations should be avoided or recorded...
What does your insurance company say?
Bill
You should probably speak to a lawyer in NY. In Maine and Massachusetts, where I practice, there are specific statutes that provide for specific, and substantial, damages for cutting down someone's trees. The suggestions that you tell the guy to talk to his insurnce company are sensible.
In maine, there are specific damages spelled out for each tree. I'll send you an e-mail with a copy of the statute. I have a case scheduled to go to trial any day now, where I represent the guy in your neighbor's position.
I know of a similar story.
I know some idiot who was selling his house and accepted an offer that a couple had put on the house.
Before they went to closing but well after the offer was accepted, he received a payment from the city for some trees on his lot that the city had to take down in order to perform some work. The city had agreed to pay for the trees because they knew they were worth something - about $3500 for four mature oaks.
The problem with all of this is that the soon-to-be homeowners had expected that the trees were going to still be there when they took ownership of the house. They were never told anything about the deal with the city.
So they sued and were awarded $3500 plus $1500 for their trouble more or less.
So they sued and were awarded $3500 plus $1500 for their trouble more or less.
I'm glad to hear that they got something but it's not much, considering the replacement/transplanting costs are many times that.
Actually the trees were not meant to be replaced because the city had to use the area as an easement and the trees were in the way of equipment which was being taken in and out.
You know, all of this reminds me of the incident at Squaw Valley ski resort. Due to a "surveyor's error", a number of protected trees allong some of their downhill runs were taken out, widening the swaths. Oops.
Ever hear the saying "it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission"? I'm all for forgiveness, but I think it gets abused sometimes.
k
I haven't read all the replies so this may be redundant.
There is a website for a law firm
treelaw.com
or
http://treelaw.com/verdicts/verdicts.04.03.html
that has a lot of interesting articles and case summaries. Your scenario is touched on at least briefly.
Karl
Excellent resource Karl. Thanks very much. I'll certainly read everything on the site.
how many trees and what size lot?
how different would you feel about this property if those same trees were knocked over in a storm?
and one last Q ... how far off is the big retirement?
ok ... more more ... how far from the proposed building site, and how many trees between the site and the damaged area?
Jeff
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Two acres. I'm not sure when I'll be building there but I'm already at retirement age so it'll be in the next few years.
Can't answer any of your other questions. Haven't seen what's been cut yet.
well ... ya do know if you'd build in the middle of said 2 acres or right next to the neighbors lot.
in reality ... how many trees ... and how different will the landscape look out the kitchen window?
has it been strip mined and clear cut ... or a coupla trees near the border chopped down?
Regardless of what's been said here ... uh ... yeah ... trees can be replaced. Replanted and replaced. Happens all the time ... how does everyone think they got there in the first place?
I've seen one too many people get wayyyy to excited about a freaking tree.
it's a plant. They live, they die ... they get cut down. Sometimes nature speeds up the process ... but they can and are replaced. And they usualy have wayyy less impact that the offended party imagines them to have. Again ... a freaking tree. A plant.
I'm not suggesting you are such a person and this is such a situation.
for all I know they strip mined your property. I'm just trying to add balance.
I'd suggest looking for any positive. Decide on a value, seems they're willing to pay ... collect and move on as happy neighbors. And remember ... trees grow! Part of my deal would certainly incluse the cost of replanting.
I'd feel just fine watching my new trees grow year by year as I sat in the hottub that my best bud neighbors paid for! Tell that story to the grandkids and laugh as they can't understand why 'cause the trees now block any view of the neighbors property ... but the hottub still fires right up! It'd be a better story if said neighbors were right there and we were all drinking the beer they brought over ... 'cause we're still friends ...
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Jeff,
I agree with most of what you've said...to a T. I've said as much over the course of this thread.
My intention is to establish what my rights are and what recourse I have to return the property to it's former condition. How I pursue that remains to be seen but I'm not out for blood.
An honest mistake, freely admitted, deserves compassion. I've felt that way since shortly after talking with the responsible person.
Of course I had to get past my initial reaction before compassion was possible but it settled in pretty soon thereafter and has remained with me since.
We all make stupid mistakes through ignorant assumptions. I've been doing it, from time to time, thoughout my life so I can understand how such things come about.
The reason we have insurance and a legal process is to mediate things like this fairly and pay settlements, without changing the course of anyones' lives significantly and/or leaving permanent bad feelings between neighbors.
I hope that will be possible in this case but I'm not going to let the matter go unresolved, for the sake of someone else's good opinion of me.
I've received a lot of very helpful advice and useful informaton from those who have posted here. I'm grateful to everyone who has participated in this discussion.
Peter
it's a plant. They live, they die ... they get cut down. Sometimes nature speeds up the process ... but they can and are replaced. And they usualy have wayyy less impact that the offended party imagines them to have. Again ... a freaking tree. A plant.
I agree, to a point. It's one thing to replace a rose bush you backed over, and a whole different ball of wax when you're talking about "plants" that took a hundred years (or much more) to grow and thin themselves, and fill out just so.
One scale you can replace more or less exactly as it was. One you can't, or it's incredibly expensive, anyway, and even then it won't have the character of what was there. Essentially irreplacable.
So many board feet of lumber and a certain number of saplings doesn't begin to restore the experience of being in that place.
k
>So many board feet of lumber and a certain number of saplings doesn't begin to restore the experience of being in that place.
True, but now that the damage is done, how does that stack up against the quality of life difference between neighbors that get along and look out for each other vs. spending your golden years next to someone holding a grudge?
How this gets handled will have a huge impact in that respect.
Seems like the OP is taking all this into consideration, so hopefully will all work out in the end.
Don
it's a plant. They live, they die ... they get cut down. Sometimes nature speeds up the process ... but they can and are replaced. And they usualy have wayyy less impact that the offended party imagines them to have. Again ... a freaking tree. A plant.
I probably own scores of thousands of trees. For the most part, they are no big deal. But, outside my window is a big red oak, probaly 150-200 years old, about 30 inches in diameter. It providers shade in summer, acorns for the wildlife and a perch for the birds. Standing alone in the middle of a field about 300 yards away is a huge white oak. I would be inconsolable if they were lost.
Good reply!
"probably own scores of thousands of trees. For the most part, they are no big deal. But, outside my window is a big red oak, probaly 150-200 years old, about 30 inches in diameter. It providers shade in summer, acorns for the wildlife and a perch for the birds. Standing alone in the middle of a field about 300 yards away is a huge white oak. I would be inconsolable if they were lost"
Speaking of trees, we had 18 inches of heavy wet snow on Sunday/Monday and lost some big limbs from a nice old apple tree. I have't been able to do a thorough review of any other damage, but the oak outside my window is OK.
It was funny, my dad lives about 7 miles north of me. He had 18" or so, we had 3"!
I love lake effect snow!
I'm adding a link to the Society of American Foresters http://www.safnet.org/ for anyone who might need that resource. There are state chapters of this organization too, many of which have their own web sites.
Following up on a suggestion from smlaw, I've done a little research on that profession, in anticipation of consulting with a certified forester.
I think the correct, legal, technical term is "oops!"
How about getting your tail over to your 'valuable' property and seeing for yourself? Be honest about your plans for the property - he very likely felled the very trees you would have to remove for your plans. Considering the cost of removing trees, he may have done you a favor.
He has owned up to it, and is trying to make things right. This is your opportunity to be gracious, and make an ally ... take it.
Important feature? Plant soem new ones, then. They;ll likely be full size by the time you get around to your project.
You've arrived a little late in the discussion. It's been a good one. You might find it interesting to read through it.
eye for an eye