So I got these pictures from a neighbor who was a nurse to one of the men who lived here in 1942.
As a refresher, here is a link to what it looks like now,
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=58336.1
Anyway, we are going to try and return the porch to what it should look like. Initially just the lower part. I’m not doing the roof railing until I have to do the roof.
Anyway, can someone identify the column capitols for me? And the railings and balusters? So that I know what to ask for at the building supply.
BTW, if you zoom way in on the front door of picture 1, you will see a blue star, signifying a resident serving over seas.
Replies
Pics resized for easier viewing...
Yikes! I just looked at the third picture of the up to date. They sure did a great job of remuddling. Damed shame, the origional house was quite nice. Do something with that cement stoop while your at it.
The stoop is actually limestone. It was quarried around here.The cement porch and block support wall, on the other hand...but it's staying. I may paint the wall black, and we will be landscaping (we held the plants back knowing we had to get in there).
Pretty cool house... What ~year was it built? What style would you say it is? Federal maybe? Do you think those window muttons are kind of unusual?
Re the columns, I don't think you will have any trouble what so ever getting some that are very close. One thing though - the 1" per foot of height is a pretty standard rule of thumb. What I've learned though is that when the columns are grouped together like that, the size proportion looks a little different - so let's say the column height is 9'; columns are only available in even number diameters - 8", 10" 12" etc. For 9' columns grouped together like that I might go for the 8". I guess really though, you will want to scale off the old pic.
Another thing - railing height - How high is the porch off the surrounding grade? The reason I ask is this. If you replace the rails, you may likely have to go with whatever building code is enforced where you live. Where I live, if the walking surface is > 30" off the surrounding grade, the railings have to be to code, which for us is 36" tall. I have read here at BT that some areas even require 42" tall railings. I think the 30" off grade thing might be somewhat standard. 36" rails don't look so good on historic houses - 28" to 32" might be more typical. 42" would look awful. By looking at your pics it looks like you are over the 30" height. If that is the case, and that code is in effect where you live, I'd build up the surrounding planting beds to satisfy the 30" requirement, so you can have the lower rails.
Edited 2/26/2006 1:30 pm ET by Matt
According to the local community association historic booklet, the house was built in 1901 for the Lewis family. When we originally bought it, I would have said basic American four-square. Four rooms down, four rooms up. However, there is an 'el' on the back, where the kitchen and maids room are. And clearly the original exterior trim detail is not craftsman. A little Greek revival perhaps? Maybe DraftGuy can weigh in - he knows architecture better than I do.Anyway, the interior seems to be firmly in the American aesthetic period. Each room has some different detail, particularly the fireplace and for the two front parlors, the crown molding. A number of houses here have the diamond window mutins. They look better in the old pictures, without the aluminum storm windows. I'm hoping to make some wooden storms at some point.The total column height now is 8'6". I did a brief measurement, and found 8" for the wide part (I assume diameters are measured off the high part, not the flute?) but I want to do multiple measures. The height off of grade I'll have to check. I was under the impression that some places now had a 24" limit. I agree that 42" would look terrible. I once did the "raise the river" strategy to avoid putting railings on a deck.I'm not too worried about finding the columns. My local dealer does fypon, and I'll check out these others. I want a coordinated railing, which I imagine most of them have. But I'd like to be able to ask for the right cap style and such, though I will take in the photos too.I'm so glad that these photos turned up. Funny story really, I asked a contractor that was working on a porch down the street to give us a bid for fixing the existing boxes on the porch, and they told me about the pictures! Their client (where they were working) was the nurse in question. Why he didn't come down and introduce himself I'll never understand. In fact, only three of our non-academic neighbors have bothered introducing themselves. I'm not sure about this "midwestern friendliness" thing.
Measurement is called out as outside dimension at base.
A taper on a colun is from about 1/3 up from base to the top. The bottom third of the height is true, so with those new sitting on plinths, the diameter there is likely the same as the base would have been
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Any possibility of getting some pics of the interior showing specific architectural details?
I've done a fair amount of studying the exteriors of homes built in that time period, as I was working in a neighborhood built from 1890 - 1920 and wanted to pick up some historically appropriate details on some new houses I was building. Re the window munitions are maybe gothic or even Tutor, but it just goes to show how even back then they tended to mix styles - making your house of a basic eclectic genera (sp?). Just goes to show that even back then, often, you couldn't necessarily peg a home as a specific style. I could go with Greek Revival though.
RE the columns I'm gonna add to what Piffin said and give you some basic terminology, etc. Column diameter is measured at the bottom of the shaft. The bottom base is actually called the plinth, the upper part of the base called the tors, and the cap is called the capitol. If there is a detail bead sever inches below the capitol, this is called an astragal. Fluted is referring to vertical groves carved or (plowed) out from the column shaft. The smooth shaft columns I think you are talking about could even be described as Tuscan with the Doric base and capitol. Most of this info from a book called "Illustrated Dictionary of Historic Architecture".
I've got a slew of interior pics, but I'll need to re-size them to post, and I don't know if others are interested. But I could probably e-mail them to you, if they will go through the mail gateways.Or I could learn how to operate my ISP provided web site....Nah, too much like work.Thanks for the nomenclature about columns. That's exactly what I was looking for!
Yeah, I'll throw my 2 pennies in (hopefully it'll be worth more than that). :)We worked on a project in Victorian Village recently that was a little like yours. Some existing townhouses across from Goodale Park. They had done something similar with the round columns on the porches and cut off the lower portion to put in rectangular box bases. My guess was the original wood columns were rotting at the bottom, so this was more of a repair than an aesthetic change. Manufacturers now have their wood columns sit a metal plinth to let air circulate, but they're still more maintenance. I've specced Fypon and others in the past (all of the detailing for the Cap over 670 in the Short North is like this), and it's much more maintenance-friendly. And I think the columns can go to the porch base (no plinth necessary). But there may be seams to deal with. You can see them on the Cap.Unfortunately, the project in Victorian Village needed VV commission approval, which said the columns had to be wood. I don't think there's a specific Old Towne East approval group, but you might contact Randy Black at the city historic preservation office (645-8620) and see if you fall under the Historic Resources Commission. It's an umbrella commission that collects all the historic areas that aren't big enough for their own separate groups. The HRC may have some requirements or resources if you have any questions. Randy also is a good source for any questions about authenticiy, materials, etc.. My own opinion would be to leave your columns/rails as is. They may not be authentic, but they're not horrible. If they need to be replaced, then I'd try to match the original design. You've got a beautiful house and I don't know that all the extra work on the porch would make it that much better. Maybe go to Fortin welding (on Fifth Ave., in Grandview) and put the extra $$ into a really intricate set of handrails for the steps. That could be sweeeeeeeet. But that's just me. :)
The boxes are rotting out, so some work has to be done. They don't have proper ventilation and are now sitting on concrete. My guess is like yours - there was rot, so the cut off the bottoms and built the boxes. I've actually seen other houses with this design, and it can look ok.But I like the original design much better, except that maybe not the iron railings. I've actually e-mailed fortin, but they never got back to me. I need a hand rail in the back also (according to the insurance company). Anyway, I'm leaning toward continuing the porch railing down the steps. I do want to use a lower maintainance product, like fypon. Dealers does fypon, along with a few other products. I figure I'll take my pictures and go over there to see what they can put together for me. I'll be doing the porch ceiling at the same time. Probably add a security camera too.Up close, the existing porch doesn't look nearly as good as it should. Too much built up paint, ugly storm windows, rotting boxes.And no one has commented on the now missing dentil molding, which I hope to put back. We will probably strip all the paint from what isn't being replaced, which is mainly just that box beam thing that runs around the ceiling.We are not in the historic district, much to my chagrin. But thanks for the name, I've been wanting to find some more resources.
O.K.. Didn't realize the columns were rotting. Now would probably be a good time to get new columns you like, rather than repairing columns you don't like. Just make sure the columns you get are structurally rated (some fiberglass columns are load-bearing, some aren't). And if you ever need anything from Fortin, don't wait for them to get back to you. You'll never hear back from them. They do good work, but they're busy and non-responsive to emails or phone messages. You'll have to go there and meet with them. Another place you might try is Blackwood Sheet Metal on 844 Kerr (291-3115). They're tucked away in a little place in the Short North. We've had some luck with them.Fypon (and others) also make several styles of polyurethane dentil moldings. It shouldn't be too much problem to find one you like.Good luck!
Doric? Perhaps.
I have bought 20 structural fiberglass columns for 2 homes lately from Turncraft, thorugh my lumberyard. http://www.turncraft.com
The columns caps look like one we use, commonly called and marketed as Tuscan. Cap and base match in style.
A basic architectural rule is that columns should be 1" round for every foot of height. This can obviously be altered.
Edited 2/25/2006 11:15 am ET by txlandlord
1" per foot is about what these are, though there is a slight taper. I think the original taper was bottom to top, but I've got to study the pictures more carefully.It appears to me that the spindles in the railing are square - anyone see any differently?One change I think we will make is to not have the iron railings on the steps. I think we will continue the porch railing and 90 degree it to come down the steps.And I do want to use a composite or something other than wood, for sure.Thanks everyone!
not sure I really understand what you are asking for -
the columns are nominally 'Doric' -
seems really unlikely you are gonna walk in somewhere and order anything 'off the shelf' that will match what's in the picts -
at the building supply I'd ask for the name of a shop that can recreate the pieces you need - work with the photos to get a count on the balusters and size/profile of the railing -
What a great house! Great lines. I'll bet it's gonna be a headache!
Anyhow, the columns are fluted with a Doric capitol. Typically with Doric caps the columns are smooth, but you don't necessarily have to follow the correct Greek Orders, God knows they don't do it in today's architecture.
You can get these, but I don't have any links right off hand. Do a Google search on 'classic porch columns' and I'll bet you come up with something. I don't know how good a building supply you have but if they're any good they should have sources for them. I would get the composit type, or they make them out of a structural cement now. I just installed a couple of them last month in fact. Wood is nice and it's the real thing, but make sure you vent it right from the base to the top.
there is a company in NC that would have what you need & they advertise in FHB -- Chadsworth Columns -- very responsive a good quality
That was/will be a handsome house. Another column company you should contact is
http://www.worthingtonmillwork.com
Send them and Chadsworth the old and new photos with dimensions and I am sure they would be happy to give you quotes and lead times. BTW their catalogs are fun to look at.
Bryan, here's another good company:http://www.outwater.com/and Fypon also makes a lot of stuff you might want to check out. Hey, pocket doors can't come off the track if they're nailed open