I’m putting together a bid for a deck job…I’ve never used hidden deck fasteners, how much more should I charge for using this product?
Chief of all sinners.
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Replies
We just started doing a deck using hidden fasteners, first time for us. Right now I hate it!!!! Feel like a fish out of water.
Unfortunately, I cant really give you any numbers as we are just figureing it out ourselves. As a W.A.G., add another 30%?
What type of hidden fastener are you planning on using? We're using the EB-Ty on an IPE deck. Number of the boards have a nice crown in them. Finding that the EB-Ty isnt able to hold the board once we crank it staight.
I did a deck last season, cedar 5/4 with the powder coated strips (brackets?) anyway you put two screws into the side of the joist and then two into the board on an angle, the deck looked great until this spring came and the boards had a spongy feeling to them, and were cupping like crazy. I won't do another hidden fastener system. On another deck i did about 5 years ago, we screwed PT 2x2 to the side of the joist and then predrilled and sunk 3" screws on an angle from underneath, however the deck was recycled 2x8 cedar(no movement to the wood), and it still is one of the best looking decks I have done. If I were to do another hidden fastener on 5/4 deck boards i would use PL on every board. another messy PITA. It ended up being something like another 1400 for a deck 16x20.
$2 labor or each one?
Overheard this subject being talked about at the local lumber yard, I would recommend ALOT. REALLY SLOWS things down.
Really??I'm working on a deck right now and i find the process goes much quicker than the conventional method of pre-drill 2 holes and drive 2 screws for each board at every joist.I think after a little getting used to the system it goes much faster.
I'm using Tigerclaw hidden fasteners which are a small double sided clip with one stainless screw to hol it in place.Ray
What deck material?
Used those once on Trex. Never again sez I.
Joe H
I'm using Portico Decking.
it looks like the Veranda decking from home depot or lowes I forgetI get it from my local lumberyard, and have been using this brand of decking for a bout 4 years now. the hidden fastener set up on the boards has only been available for maybe two years. I do feel as though it is a time saver at least for me.
I find that i can put more decking down in a day than the old method of pre-drilling and driving screws.The fasteners do cost more but you save on the labor so it becomes a bit of a wash in the end as far as pricing goes.Ray:)
Great feedback. I find the whole deck board thing a huge challenge. If it is not deck screws that strip easily, or figuring out the cost of installing hidden fasteners, or what works or does not work, etc.
I have yet to do a deck that does not cause me huge headaches. I wish FHB would do an article that deals with these challenges and explains which systems actually work.
There has been a few articles on deck building and such over the years.
Of course each carpenter has their own preference to what works for them.My usual motto when it comes to building decks.... Build it bombproof or don't build it.
Other preferences are big bolts, good flashing details and predrilling for screws.I have worked on decks that have been put together with finish nails from a nail gun!!! what the %$#@!~ is that all about? cheap that's what.A little research, a few posts on BT and some trial by fire will do wonders for your deck building prowess.Good luckRay;)
Edited 8/28/2008 5:17 pm ET by raymond128
Heck, I'd charge by the fastener, and say there were a lot of 'em - it's not like the client can check!
Forrest - charging a lot for the emperor's new clothes
Edited 8/5/2008 8:12 pm ET by McDesign
Why not just count em', and NOT take advantage of a situation you feel you wouldn't get caught at. The plumber counts his fittings used in many instances.
Okay, okay . . .
Forrest
On a recent deck I estimated, the cost of the hidden fasteners alone and
screws that went with them, was $1100.00 just for the fasteners/screws.
Do you get paid by the lumen for brightening up my days and nights?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Yep!
Forrest
Many types of deck boards now come with a dado in the side which allows a hidden fastener that can be installed from above. You have to special order these boards and the fasteners, the labor is the same as normal installation, the cost of the fasteners are higher.
We just finished an Ipe deck with Ebty's. It was the first one I have done. It was about 350 sq ft and the Ebty's were $400 and it took twice as long to put down as ompared to pre-drilling for SS nails. We screwed and plugged the perimeter and it looks great, just be sure to cover your a$$!
Good luck.
Kimball
I started a thread a while back asking about hidden or face fasteners. I am going to be using TimberTech decking. I went and saw a buddies deck installed with their fastener system that used the dado in the sides of the boards. Looks like garbage. you can see the plastic piece at each location and it really draws my eyes down into the gaps between the boards. The resulting gap is larger than I'd like too.I've decided to just be careful with my face fastening and plan on using Trapeze Screws and being careful to keep them lined up straight. My personal feeling is that it will look better than the "hidden" system that isn't really "hidden".As far a what to charge. Everyone I've talked to says the systems are a real PITA. So I would cover my butt if I were bidding this job. But I'm just a homeowner DIY so whaadaiknow?
My charge for using hidden fasteners is always hidden.
last paragraph, bottom of the page ~!~
I used Tiger Claws on a Trex deck.
An incredible pain in the butttttttt.
Expensive little buggers too.
Despite what they say about just smack it together, not so. Lay it out & smack it to mark the points, then DRILL each one, 2 holes per clip.
Never again, but maybe if it had been wood rather than Trex they work as advertised?
Joe H
"Expensive little buggers too."
I'll say. I just finished building muy house and the cost of those things knocked my socks off. In the recent "Most overpriced building item" thread I listed hidden fasteners (and blue painters tape).
Runnerguy
What product do you speak of? There are at least three systems
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Hey, can you give us an update on your project? Did you end up using the hidden system, which one, and how did it go?
He's hiding.
Forrest
My client decided to put the project on hold. As a result, the opportunity to discuss hidden fasteners was put on hold.I was thinking of charging him 3 times as much 'labor' for the 'deck surface' installation, since it seems it would take about 3 times as long to drive the fastener than it would be from the standard "through top" approach. As well as add the cost for the fasteners themselves with mark-up.I was thinking of using the metal bracket type that screws from underneath.Chief of all sinners.
ChiefI'm not too sure about charging three times the amount for hidden fasteners vs through the top.
I know i can put down more decking with hidden fasteners than through the top. (based on pre-drill 2 holes and drive 2 screws for each board at every joist.)keep in mind all i do is lock in the the board to the clips from the previous board and then put in some clips and drive the 1 5/8 stainless screws right in.Now I know that somewhere out there there are some guys using the collated screw guns that you stand up and simply drive the screws in.
My experience with those has not been favorable and therefore i don't use that approach anymore.Good luck with the deck when you do get to move forward with it. and give the hidden fasteners a try. the learning cure is short and you will find yourself moving faster across the deck than in the past.Oh just a quick tip ...always star your decking from the out side edge not up against the house... why??? well just because;)good luck
Ray:)
The costbook gives no specifics as to how the deck material is fastened. I assumed it was either nailed or screwed, but not predrilled.If you don't mind me asking, what type of hidden fasteners do you use, and why? Have you tried others? If so, what where your likes and dislikes?
Chief of all sinners.
ChiefRight now I 'm using Portico composite decking with Tigerclaw hidden fasteners.I have done one deck with Ipe and Ipe clips. (real tough).
The decking did not com with any groove on the side so we used a biscuit joiner to make the slot for the hidden fastener clips.
that particular process was VERY time consuming. I don't know whether there are Ipe boards with the groove down the side now. The Tigerclaw fasteners work very well for me and have not had much problem with them.As mentioned before the clips are a bit expensive. 1 bag only covers about 50sq ft. but IMO they do save me a lot of time. Something else to keep in mind. I usually only use stainless screws anyway for decking so the money i'm saving by not using 2 screws for each joist simply is transefered to the use of the clips and i'm saving time AKA making more money;)Ray ;)