Hello. I am a DIY’er, building a house in central Maine. The other day I had the local lumberyard move a load of trusses from beside my house to the top of the second floor walls, from where I was going to set them in place. In the proscess of moving them, 5 of them slipped off the load and crashed ~20′ to the ground. Two of them are not badly damaged, two have a broken bottom chord, and one has a broken top chord. I am told by the lumberyard that this happens on occasion and that it’s not that big of a deal. They also tell me that normally, the contractor would receive directions from the truss maker and then make repairs right in the field – likely by either using the broken 2×4 member or replacing the 2x with a new one and then using plywood gussets at each of the joints. I should add that I special ordered these trusses with a raised heel, so replacing them isn’t as simple as calling down to the truss manufacturer and asking them to ship 5 new trusses – at least that’s what I’m told. My question is, how would this type of situation normally be handled? The lumberyard wants me to make the repairs but I feel if I make the repairs then I will assume all liability if for some reason the repairs fail. They claim that if I don’t make the repairs, it may be sometime before the repairs happen – remember I said this was central Maine – we could have snow on the ground in 4 weeks, so I’m anxious to get the repairs made asap. I’ve already lost a week and am looking at losing another week at the very least. Any advice would be very welcome!
Thank you!
Sco
Replies
THe Boss can give you a definitive answer, but, IMHO, all 5 are damaged beyond repair. Unless you have access to an xray machine.
SamT
You're into a touchy situation here - One without an easy answer.
In a normal situation, your lumberyard is right - The truss manufacturer would provide you with instructions on how to repair a broken truss. They typically have an engineer design the repair, and furnish you with a drawing. Since you have instructions from an engineer, you're covered from liability, since they're the "expert" and you're following their instructions.
But when trusses fall, that's a different story. Some engineers will refuse to design a repair for a truss that's fallen, since there may be hidden damage in the lumber. The engineers your truss company use may or may not feel this way.
The only thing to do in this case is contact the manufacturer of the trusses and explain the situation. They deal with this stuff on a daily basis and will know what to do. I would bypass the lumberyard and talk to them directly if possible.
Whether or not these trusses have raised heels isn't any big deal. The vast majority of truses are made to order - Very few truss plants stock anything. If you need or want new trusses, explain the situation and they may rush them through for you.
Is a book on voyeurism a peeping tome?
It is so cool having a man of your knowledge and experience on hand! Makes me wish I had more truss questions!
Thanks, BH
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"Heck Is Where People Go Who Don't Believe In Gosh"
You mileage may vary .....
That's what I like about this place, if you have a question on anything specific, you can think of at least one person here to direct it too.
We got plumbers, electritions, trusses, framing, finishing, siding, tile, wood floors, decks... etc.
and if you want politics, you can get any opinion you want either confirmed or shot down just the same.Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, Professionals built the Titanic.
Both confirmed AND shot down! ; )Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.
Thanks for the kind words. But I'm not doing anything here that many others aren't.
Actually - I had a pretty poor opinion of home inspectors in general until I got to reading your posts. And I'm sure there are others who would tell you the same.
Now I just have a poor opinion of liberals...................(-:Sea captains don't like crew cuts.
Now I just have a poor opinion of liberals...................(-:
Just keep reading ..., we will serve no enlightenment before it's time! {G,D&R}
_______________________
"Heck Is Where People Go Who Don't Believe In Gosh"
You mileage may vary .....
Edited 8/29/2003 6:11:25 PM ET by Bob Walker
Thank you very much for your advice! I really appreciate receiving input/thoughts from an unbiased expert.
I want to believe that the lumberyard has my best interests in mind, but given my inexperience and the size of my job, I can't help but feel I'm being taken advantage of. They've been insistent that field repairs are possible - although they haven't spoken with an engineer yet. I feel much more comfortable with what they've said up to now and will follow up directly with the truss manufacturer.
Central Maine!!!!!!
I used to live in Bowdoinham, north of Topsham !!!
Where you at and which lumperyard you using?Mr T
Do not try this at home!
I am an Experienced Professional!
How come no one has asked if this lumber yard was responsible for losing the load? If I was paying a company to lift trusses and THEY dropped them, THEY would replace them. On THEIR dime. No field fixes! The truss plant I normally use would be able to fabricate replacements and ship in 2-3 days.
Yeah, that's the question I was going to ask- who was doing the lifting, and why aren't they taking responsibility? One of my favorite moto's is; You break it-you bought it.
The way I read this, and knowing how things are done in Maine, the lumberyard was doing him a favor to m,ove the trusses so he is being careful not to try to pin too much on them.
I'll agree that if this was noraml delivery handling, that the yard should be financially responsible for repacing all damaged trusses.
The idea that they are acting in the owners best interests is contrary to sound business and to human nature. In short, it is mere wishful thinking. The guys at the yard are acting in their own interests but this owner needs to act in his own interests, unless he wants to take a chance of the roof falling in on him. Whatever repairs or replacements happen, they should be OKed by an engineer from the manufacturer. ( Sprouls?).
Excellence is its own reward!
When I get my way, I'll talk the HO, into having 1 to 2 % of total job cost, in the "Just cause" budget column. Last big home I did, the HO, says to me, " How about we all be real careful, then we won't need it" . Jim J
crazy glue ; )
Its very hard to grow, because it's difficult to let go of the models of ourselves in which we invested in so heavily
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Sco,
Who's at fault. Ralph's point is important. If someone else (lumber yard) was hired to move the trusses and dropped them - I'd want new ones delivered. I'd expect 7 tp 10 days turn around. (actually being in the business, I'd demand it and get it - not being a pro, you're a one-shot-deal and don't have as much leverage.)
On the other side, field repairs are common. I do lot's of truss jobs and invariably orders come with damaged webs and cords; or during delivery roll-off from the trailer something gets busted. I've even received trusses where the fabricator forgot to apply some of the metal truss plates.
I've handled repairs in a couple ways. In all cases I get a field repair notice direct from the fabricator's engineer. For web and cord damage - the common solution is to sister both sides of the break with additional 2x4 or 2x6 of a certian length beyond the break. The nail schedule is also specific. For truss plate or web/cord connection damage the solution is new metal or plywood gussets.
When I have more than one damaged truss I alternate the damaged ones between good ones so there are at least two good trusses on either side of each repaired truss.
I've installed some pretty heavily damaged and repaired trusses and they are fine. I've never worried about liability.
Mike Guertin
One of the things to note:
" someone else (lumber yard) was hired to move the trusses and dropped them "
This was in Maine; I got the impression, as Piffin has also pointed out, that the trusses may have been moved as a favor. It might be that no one was "hired" to move them. Often what will happen around here is if someone arrives on site with a boom truck to do one thing, they get asked to do others. If it's being done as a favor or freebie, it's kinda boorish to nail someone if they drop it. They probably feel bad, and are trying to help out.
I certainly could be wrong in my interpretation; the Moosehead is flowing, after all.
" I've even received trusses where the fabricator forgot to apply some of the metal truss plates."
One of my pet peeves. This happens to every manufacturer out there. But it doen't get taken seriously enough, IMHO.
There's new technology around now to help prevent this. Hopefully more fabricators (Including MY employer) will install the equipment soon. For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? - I Corinthians 14:8
Wow - lots of great information and many questions! Someone asked where in Maine - I'm building in Gleburn, just west of Bangor. I'd prefer not to mention the name of the lumberyard because all in all they've been a great help.
As for who's at fault - that's a bit of a long story - I'll try to summarize and let you decide. The trusses were dropped in the yard by the manufacturer (2 sets - one set for the garage and another for the house) approx. 2 weeks before the "fall". The lumberyard told me that when I was ready they'd come out and set the bundles on the roof for me. It was one of those deals where I'd put in an order and while the driver was on site he'd pop them up. Well I had a 5 day weekend coming up so I ordered a large shipment for Wed. AM and waited for the truck and boom to arrive. When the driver arrived, he hadn't been told about the plan to place the trusses on the walls and he neither had the right truck or the right equipment to make the move. I called the lumberyard and was told that someone would be out on Thursday to take care of them. The guy that arrived on Thursday managed to place the garage trusses on the walls using a sling but he wasn't equipped to move and place the house trusses - they had been dropped along the driveway and had to be moved ~125' before they could be placed on the walls. Before he left, he called the office and they told him to tell me that if I cut the bands and moved the pile the 125' and stacked them at the end of the house, someone could swing in the next day and pop them up for me. So my wife and 2 kids and I moved them that evening and I called early the next morning to let them know the we had moved them and they were all set to be placed on the walls. Noone made it out that day and so the following Monday I placed another order and was told that they'd call me before delivering that load so I could meet them at the lot and show them where I wanted the trusses placed. The next evening I showed up to work on the house and the lumber I ordered was on site - noone had called me to inform me of the delivery so the trusses still hadn't been moved. I arranged to take care of them that Friday - noone showed up but I was told that someone would be there early the next morning (last Saturday). The driver arrived Saturday morning and set his truck along the sw corner of the house (the plan was to set them on the wall such that the peaks rested on the west wall and the heels rested on the S and N walls. I had built a temporary wall along the center of the second floor so that bottom chords would have something to rest on as well. Because they had been unbanded the operator was using his fork to place them. He put them in place on the W, S, and N walls but the bottom chords were not on the wall I built and it looked to me that he wouldn't be able to get his fork out from under the trusses (it was within inches of the wall I built and I didn't think he'd be able to pull the fork out). I was standing on the second floor in the SE corner where I could watch the trusses and give hand signals to the driver. I motioned to him asking if he could move the trusses just a bit further to the east (I was hoping to get the bottom chords on the wall I built and also figured that he'd need to do so to free his fork). The driver indicated with hand gestures that he was unsure but decided to have a go at it. From where I was standing I couldn't tell how much of the peaks were overhanging the west wall - it turns out that there was not very much. The operator lifted the trusses and began moving them east when the peaks dropped off the west wall and 5 of them went over the wall and the others fell within the house and hung up on the n and s walls.
When I spoke with the lumberyard the first time, they were quick to point out that we were both at fault - them for moving them after they had already been set and me for unbanding them and moving them by hand to the west side of the house. I pointed out that I was told by somene from the lumber yard to unband them and move them. The next time I spoke with them they told me I was half to blame for asking the driver to move them a second time. I did in fact do so, so I guess I share some of the blame. On the other hand, I didn't know how close the peaks were to the west wall - nor did I understand the ramifications of those peaks coming off the wall.
So, that's the full story - probably sorry you asked!
BTW - before I could contact the truss manufacturer, I heard from the lumber yard. They told me I had 2 choices - I could reorder and they would pay for half of the new trusses but could not guarantee delivery before the end of September, or the truss manufaturer would have an engineer look at photos of the broken trusses and draw up plans to perform an on-site fix. In the latter case, the lumberyard would pick up the engineers fee up to the cost of half the replacement of the trusses. I'd make the fixes and they'd send a truck out and put them on the walls. For better or worst, I agreed to the latter - with any luck I'll be placing the final 5 trusses next Saturday.
Thanks again for your help!
Sco
Near as I can tell from all this (I'm not normally trying to assess blame but to find solutions - but you asked) the blame could be shared.
But the problem could have been avoided by regular, experienced on-site supervision. In other words, you are tryiung to save money by being your own general contractor but not doing the job you are paying yourself to do very well. Thus the delay and cost is in your lap. Don't go too had on the guys at the lumberyard. It sounds like the fall happened with the driver taking directions from you and you directed him to do something that cause dthe fall, making you ultimately responsible as the contractor and specifically responsible as the active control agent.
As far as which choice to take, I would probably ave paid for new trusses and waited but you already have made your choice..
Excellence is its own reward!
I'd say that you bear all responsibilty until you learn to break your writings down into paragraphs or reasonable length. (Joke with a touch of sourness.)
There is a reason why, after centuries of writing by thousands of people who know what they are doing, and millions who don't, that our writing standards call for paragraphs far shorter than you used.
It's called readability. FWIW, I got about as far as where the wife and kids were doing something and it just got too hard to read so I stopped.
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http://www.medic37.net/prayer.shtml
Your mileage may vary ....
Bob,
I could have sworn I read somewhere here you we an attorney at one time? Am I wrong?
Jon
I could have sworn I read somewhere here you we an attorney at one time?
Yep - I'm now an attorney in recovery {G}
I burned out in '92 - came back to the trades.
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Your mileage may vary ....
LOL
He just needed to get it all out in one breathe for fear some attorney from across the aisle would break in at the pause with an objection.
;).
Excellence is its own reward!
Bob Walker is right - Breaking things up in paragraphs makes a long post MUCH more readable. My opinion on who's at fault is that it's clearly the lumber yard/boom operator - They fell off while he was messing with them. He used inadequate equipment to do a half baked job, IMHO. Having to wait until the end of September for new trusses is total B.S., regardless of who's at fault. I've never worked for or heard of a manufacturer yet who would make a customer wait that long in such a situation. I wonder if the lumberyard made that up so they wouldn't get stuck with eating the cost of the trusses. The fact that they offered to pay for half right off the bat makes me think they already know they're responsible. (AND the fact that they agreed to pay for the repair drawings) Another thing that kinda burns me is that I've never ONCE charged a customer for repair drawings - With one exception. If a customer tells me they want to modify a truss after the fact(Add a vaulted ceiling or something) we charge them for the time. But NEVER for a repair on a damaged truss. The engineers don't charge the truss company in the vast majority of cases, so why should the truss company charge you? When you get the repair drawings for the trusses read them carefully. They're most likely going to call for specific grades and species of material. It may or may not be something you can buy from the local lumberyard. Around here most trusses are SYP, but the yards stock mostly SPF. The drawings are also likely to call out an adhesive of some sort. (You might hit up the yard about supplying that, as well as the lumber) They'll also call out a specific size of nail. Read the drawings carefully before you start.
Does that about cover it? And did I make the point about breaking the posts up into paragraphs?He has Van Gogh's ear for music [Billy Wilder]
"He used inadequate equipment to do a half baked job, IMHO."
This is what happens when you use a boom truck which is free instead of paying for a crane, which is not free but is the right equipment for the job. I know because that is often what we do. Either that or haul the trusses up with ropes. If there is a problem, it is our problem because we should know better.
I think that the lumberyard is acting in good faith by showing that they are willing to go halfway on the repair/replacement. As it is, I doubt that they are making a dime on this job.
Alright, your point about smaller paragraphs is well-taken. English composition was my worst subject through all 7 years of high school. I'll do my best to reform...
Thank you for the advice regarding the engineers plans - assuming the truss manufacturer finds an engineer willing to draft a corrective solution (based on some of the posts, I'm guessing that some engineers won't be willing to do so).
These trusses appear to be a mix of SYP and some other species - possibly fir or spruce grown locally? The top and bottom chords look to be all SYP while the purlins (correct term?) look to be of a different species - course I could be totally wrong on both counts. The guy from the lumber yard told me that it may be necessary to have the truss manufacturer ship some lumber up to be used in making the repairs.
Getting back to the blame issue - I do feel that I share some responsibility for what happened. Although it may not have been clear in my original post, the primary reason I wrote was to get some idea as to how this situation would normally be handled and to find out whether or not field repairs were truly an option. I wanted to be sure that the lumber yard wasn't trying to pull a fast one on an unsuspecting customer.
Thanks again for all your input!
Sco
assuming the truss manufacturer finds an engineer willing There is an engineer employed by the truss mfgr who is prepared (and experienced) at doing this type of repair work. All the lumberyard has to do is pick up the phone and call the plant.Do it right, or do it twice.
"...assuming the truss manufacturer finds an engineer willing to draft a corrective solution"
The engineering for the trusses is tied in with the plates they use. The truss company buys the plates from a specific company, and that company provides the truss company with free engineering. (With some exceptions)
So they have an engineer - It's just a matter of what they feel the correct solution is.
If you have a digital camera, that's probably the best way to get the pictures you mentioned. The truss plant can most likely email the pictures to the engineers. He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lampposts... for support rather than illumination [Andrew Lang]