I just had my hardwood floor refinished, replacing very ugly green carpet with 1920’s curly and birdeye’s maple. Who could put carpet over that!!!
Anyway, because of a slight gap between the floor and the baseboard, I’m going to need quarter round.
I wondering how I should do the ends of the quarter round to keep with the 1920’s style. In the 20’s, would these have had a return or should I just plan on cutting a 50 or 55 degree miter on the ends to finish them?
Maybe somebody who works with old houses might have some ideas, I haven’t had any luck with the books I’ve looked at.
Thanks!
Replies
Returns would look better, but I would buy shoe molding, which is similar to quarter round, but taller. Returns would be a pain to do because there is so little meat on them.
Another option:
Cut the ends with a 22.5 degree cut, but leave half of it with a square edge. You'll probably get a different answer from each carpenter._____________________________________
Mike S.
Project Coordinator
So, what would the difference be with quarter round and shoe moulding?
I like to stay with the style of my house and I'm thinking they would have gone with taller shoe moulding when the house was built. But, I'm not sure.
Corrib, this morning my crew and I put down shoe molding, which is 1/2" x 3/4" with a 1/2" radius. Quarter round looks "flat" when you use is as shoe mold (we call it base shoe).
I like to return it to the floor--it makes a nice finished look, something like they might have done back in the old days.
Shoe is definitely the trim of choice for this application, but I have used QR in the past to cover larger horizontal gaps between the floor and the base. Ideally you'd cut some custom strips and run them through the router in this situation, but the QR was handy.
Go to your local lumberyard or big box and get a piece of shoe and a piece of QR. Lay them in place and you'll see the difference. Some people like the look of QR, and that's fine, but it sounds like you're looking to be historically correct, so shoe is what you want...
Ditto what Mike_at_Excel said. My house is 1926, and has shoe instead of QR, but the ends are half-mitred. See the sketch for a top view.
Same here in Los Angeles for a 1926 house, shoe and half or more miter.
-- J.S.
How tall is the base? And what profile?
Here's something out of a 20's-30's house. Conventional shoe would have been too squat. Used bullnose stop to add to the salvaged parts, matched what they had quite well. On some here in NW Oh, the tall base had an OG like stop applied as shoemld.
View Image
A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Nice work, Calvin!
I think I will be going with the base shoe versus the quarter round based on everything here.
Still not sure about what to do with the ends though. The 22.5 cuts would probably be quicker than cutting the returns. I'm not sure.
If anyone's got any thoughts about using returns or tricks for cutting them I'd be interested.
On small shoe I'll sometimes self return (apply a solid back to your saw so the pcs don't shoot all over the place). I'll usually cut almost through (not the backside) and snap it off. You don't see the missing part on the return. I fasten them with Fastcaps 2-P-10. Instant set.
Sometimes I'll come out a bit and cut a 30 deg. to take off the corner. Round it over with a sandblock. Looks much like a self return or return to the floor.
Shoe is a royal PIA, but done well I think adds to the form of the base. Some like to fit their base to the floor. In the end, most of the base and shoe gets buried behind something. Such is life.
A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Edited 5/26/2006 4:14 pm ET by calvin
>>"If anyone's got any thoughts about using returns or tricks for cutting them I'd be interested.
If you do decide to go with returns, there's nothing tricky about cutting them. It's nothing but an outside corner.
To cut the little return piece, cut one end of a piece of the moulding stock as if it would be an outside corner (make sure the stock length is long enough for safe cutting practice when you do cut the return piece). Now the length of the return piece is the width (to return to the wall), or height (if you return into the floor) of that moulding. If you'll do a lot of them, set up a stop on your saw for that length. Cut the little return piece off (square, of course) and try to keep an eye on where it goes if your saw tends to shoot little pieces across the room.
Use a cyanoacrylic glue (super glue type stuff) to glue the return to the main stock. You can also use a 23g pinner to hold it for the few seconds it takes for the glue to set up.
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
Thanks for all the great advice and pictures.
If all goes well, I hope to be posting pictures of my own tomorrow at this time.
Stay tuned...
just walked from the library to the living room to take a look at the mold. Shoe, not quarter round, though it's not as tall as Cal's, but clearly not quarter round.
However, there is NO PLACE where the shoe doesn't butt into something. Where it meets a door, there's a plynthe block. So, there are never any exposed ends or returns.
SHGFor every complex problem, there is a solution that is clear, simple, and wrong.
-H.L. Mencken
I generally put a 45 miter on the end, but with this small variation: I take the piece of shoe to the casing, mark the vertical line at the face of the door casing, and use that point to start the miter. In other words, the shoe butts to the casing, then is faired away. No gaps, nice and clean, and no spaces that will be impossible to paint naxt time.
Depends om the job. High end, my house, the shoe gets returned. A quicky to hold vinyl down on a basement stair, 45's.
I'd shy away from quarter round, instead opting for the 1/2x3/4 mlding that some folks is calling shoe, but I was taught to call it carpet strip.
That little 1/4" takes this from a kludge solution to an obviously more finessed solution.
Eric
once more ....
with feeling.
No Visible Endgrain!!!
aaaaaAAAAHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Is the base painted or natural wood? If painted, it's easy to shape a false return on shoe with a rasp and a bit of sandpaper. End grain won't matter if it's painted.
Also, cope all inside joints if at all possible. Even though it's shoe, you want to avoid that shadow line in the inside corners. Shoe is one of the easiest profiles to cope, so it's no big deal to do this. We do it all the time on our homes.
Corrib,
I think you've received good advice here so far -- use a bonafide base shoe as opposed to quarter round and the work will look much better (and historically correct, too).
I'm assuming you're facing a problem where the door casing is of insufficient thickness to allow the base shoe to run into it cleanly.
If the casing is slightly thicker than the baseboard, I'd recommend back-beveling the shoe, but leaving a slight butt end on the shoe. See the "backbevel" photo to get an idea of what I mean. The picture shows a 1/2" x 3/4" shoe with an 1/8" butt and 45-degree backbevel on the remainder. (Sorry that the photo resolution isn't all that great.)
If the casing is the identical thickness of the baseboard, you could use the same approach, or do a mitered return. I've never seen this done in an entire house, so I can't say whether it would be "historically appropriate". However, this is only because it is unlikely that base shoe would have been used in a situation where the baseboard and casings were the same thickness.
Every once in a while, I encounter a situation in which a mitered return is the best option (see photo). In this instance, for example, the base shoe runs up to a stair stringer, and there didn't seem to be any better way to terminate the shoe.
The last photo shows a plinth block. This style of trim eliminates the above problems altogether, because it allows the full profile of the base shoe to terminate into the block. A similar strategy would be to use a deep backband.
Ragnar17, could you please give me some details on your plinth block!? Overall thickness of your baseboard plus shoe and thickness of the plinth block. Height of your base and cap and plinth block? Details on the profile on top of the plinth and width of your casing? Lastly, reveal between the jamb and casing and how far over the plinth block extends to the left and right of the casing. I just love how it all flows and am trying to recreate in my house. I know it’s been a long time since this was posted….
To long for him to answer but I’ll take a guess.
Top cap 1-5/8. Stock item.
Base. 7-1/4 x 3/4”
Shoe (not 1/4 rnd). 3/4 x 1/2 thick.
Casing at least 4” + x 3/4
Plinth. Maybe 5 x 9-1/2” x 1-1/4”
But, using stock sizes and or blocks, mock it up for yourself.
Using 3/4” thick jamb material you’ll leave a very light 8th” reveal on the jamb for the plinth and a half “ for the casing. Stock knockdown casing is thinner, about 5/8”. The bevels on the top of the plinth can’t be much. 3/8” maybe, back.
With some scrap you should be able to mock it up for sizing. The top base detail is stock base cap.
I hope this helps, watching football and didn’t want to turn away……..
Calvin, I appreciate your reply. I actually tried mocking it up this weekend and got thrown off with the reveal because I didn’t think outside of the box. I assumed very similar dimensions as you, except where I went wrong was with my jamb to casing reveal. A uniform bevel or maybe an elliptical round over (looks like this is what is in the picture) on all three sides will work with a 1/2” reveal between the casing and jamb. Although, isn’t a 1/2” reveal really heavy? I feel like I am more used to 1/4” to 3/8”, which will obviously be a problem with 1-1/4” thick plinth.
The reveal will be dictated by that bevel or whatever on the plinth block. Less is better you bet! Too bad he didn’t catch that reveal in a photo. 3/8” would be alright once the finish is applied.
Personally I’d just knock the sharp edge off the top or as is sometimes seen, bevel (clip) the top front edge of the block also.
This would make the block “appear” not as thick at the top.
Damn plinth would have to be close to 1-1/4” to catch the whole end of the shoe.
I think this way, “perfect is close enough for this job”. However, you’ll be lucky if anyone notices there’s even a door there unless it’s the bathroom.
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EDIT:
I am adding this in reply to #30. Couldn’t get it to work as #31. Must be analogous propagation.
What do you have planned for the upper trim for the door? Something other than mitered head?
I like the OG stop for the shoe. Have seen and used it many times. Looks good.
Are the drawings to scale? Depending on the home and ceiling height, 3-1/2” might sound a tad narrow…….or not. Recessed panel doors?
Could you post a scale drawing of the whole shebang?
You guys that have adapted to sketch up or other drawing tools impress me. When I met with homeowners I’d bring the full size bundle of material and hold or tack it up for visuals. My hand drawings alone couldn’t quite do it….
Have a look here
https://www.thisiscarpentry.com/author/gary-katz/
And
https://www.garymkatz.com/
Some great ideas and examples and education on the craft.
In fact there’s a boatload of knowledge that is available, you just have to look.
Here’s somebody I met here on Breaktime a long time ago. We know each other but not in person. Every few or five yrs we make contact via email. Some day in person.
A couple articles he wrote for TiC.
https://www.thisiscarpentry.com/author/ed-williams/
I ended up modeling this all up and think I got what I want. I was able to achieve 3/8” reveal on the jamb and ended up doing two different bevel angles. The side bevel is a different angle than the front bevel by about 7 degrees. Let me know what you think! I am using 1x6 for the base and 1x4 for the case. Shoe is 3/8” thick. Plinth is 4-1/8” x 7-7/8” x 1-3/16”. Ledge between case and plinth is 1/16” all around and is 1/16” in from door jamb.
What do you have planned for the upper trim for the door? Something other than mitered head?
I like the OG stop for the shoe. Have seen and used it many times. Looks good.
Are the drawings to scale? Depending on the home and ceiling height, 3-1/2” might sound a tad narrow…….or not. Recessed panel doors?
Could you post a scale drawing of the whole shebang?
You guys that have adapted to sketch up or other drawing tools impress me. When I met with homeowners I’d bring the full size bundle of material and hold or tack it up for visuals. My hand drawings alone couldn’t quite do it….
Have a look here
https://www.thisiscarpentry.com/author/gary-katz/
And
https://www.garymkatz.com/
Some great ideas and examples and education on the craft.
In fact there’s a boatload of knowledge that is available, you just have to look.
Here’s somebody I met here on Breaktime a long time ago. We know each other but not in person. Every few or five yrs we make contact via email. Some day in person.
A couple articles he wrote for TiC.
https://www.thisiscarpentry.com/author/ed-williams/
So this is ridiculous, I couldn't reply to any of your other post's except this one, looks like you had a similar problem! The drawing is to scale and it is done in solidworks since I mainly do 3d mechanical design. Its not great for home stuff but definitely better than nothing. The full view is attached, but doesn't show the door or the walls/ceiling. Ceiling height is 8' downstairs and 7-1/2' upstairs. Ceiling height is the reason why I chose the base/case widths and heights I did. Original trim is 3-1/2" tall base and 2-3/4" wide colonial case so this is definitely an upgrade. No mitered corners for the casing. I was hoping I could do a crosshead crown, but many of my doorways/windows are close to inside corners and half of them would get cut off and I did not like that idea. All of these factors lead me to this design. The window trim will look the same with a beaded apron. Lastly here is a picture of the door I made that is going into the doorway. Solid poplar double sided raised panel interior door that will be painted white. Tried one, came out great, and will continue to proceed through the rest of the house with this design style one room at a time. I am not a contractor, just a crazy homeowner.
Oh, and thanks for the links. I will check them out in more depth later but I can say I have already took some ideas from Gary Katz for this project.
Let’s try this……
( I contacted a former FHB editor and he snuck in and inserted my post. Didn’t really know why I couldn’t get it to take but it’s good to know someone who has a key to the joint)
Beautiful door and I think you’ve got things under control. Make sure you take a peak at Ed’s link I posted. Look at the big crown cutting story. Where’s there’s a will, there’s a way!
And when you get done with a section of your project, come back and post some pics. Visitors here need some encouragement.
That crown was insane! I also think Gary Katz changed his website for the last time I was on there. I will try to remember to post some final pictures after all completed. I just started setting up and testing out my new HVLP sprayer so hopefully this works out good. Thanks again for helping me work through this. It was the final detail that needed to be ironed out.
As you've already read, there's a bunch of folks on this forum who know their stuff in this particular area; but, FWIW, here's some additional opinion to weight you down.
1) There were no motorized mitre saws in the 20's and no-one took a frame-saw out in the field. Mitres were done with a back-saw w or w/o a mitre-box of some sort.
2) By observation, period work would include the partial mitre (someone posted a diagram); and, hand-carved 60º through 90º returns to the wall. We generally mitre them at between 60º and 75º and round them off with a rasp - mostly shoe, occassionally more exotic (profiled) stop.
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
A related question - Oak hardwood floor and brown painted baseboard, should I put down oak quarter round to match the floor or pine and paint it to match the baseboard?Thanks.
Steve.
either or , flip a coin.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
There is no cure for stupid. R. White.
Corrib,
IF you choose to go the Mitred return route you might want to try this depending on what you are using.
Cut the QR to length and square. Take a small cutoff and mark the profile on the end that would be returned,on the back. Cut it with a coping saw or jigsaw. Sand with a palm sander.
In effect your " Making" a return without the small pieces. It works well with hardwood as the grain is tight enough that when you sand it you can't tell it's end grain.
It's ok with painted pine or softwood but no good if you're going to stain it.
Thanks, that's a good tip.
I decided to try it and see what it looks like. In the picture, the left side is just a miter and the right side is the "cut return". Of course, that outside corner wouldn't really look like that. I was just trying to do a side-by-side comparison.
In my opinion, I think the miter looks better, even though the "cut return" is more elegant (especially if it were actually painted).
-Don
View Image
Edited 5/28/2006 10:09 am ET by DonCanDo
I have some mockups made up somewhere of different baseboards and how they look with different techniques. Coped, butted etc.. I just went out and looked for them and can't find them. Now I got to figure out who's selling my skills with them LOL. Anyway I threw together this piece of quarter to show you how much better a return looks on it. Check it out. totaly different.
GIVE ME AN............. F!