Recently had my house framed up and, was at first delighted with the framers. The speed was certainly thee but now that things have settled down and I have begunpunch outs and customizing things before the sheet rock goes on,..I have noticed many things that bother me and I wanted to run it by you all and get your thoughts.
1. Their corner posts,..normally two 2x4s with 2×4 blocks in the middle, had no blocks. The same with their “T’s” they just sit there waiting to bow. He told me that is wasnt needed (blocks)..I disagree.
2. There R.O. for doors are almost three inches more than the door itsself..Isnt that a bit much?
3. When they stapled the decking, they missed and missed and missed and if a staple bent, they didnt pull it. The roofers were upset and I dont blame them.
4. Nails and caps everywhere. Not evn an effort to pick up
I could go on and on but my question is this. Is this normal. Is this the standard od the framing industry. I understand speed and all but, why sacrifice quality,..hell, not even quality..why sacrafice common sense for speed. Am I asking for too much. I mean, I am a carp myself and I am slower than others because I am particular. Mybe I am ignorant to the new construction industry and the trades just pass on the carelessness to the next trade. Is that how it is? does a bowed stud get passed to the sheetrocker and then to the punchout guy. Does a bad layout go to the decker and then to the roofer.
I have spent about 15 hours fixing and finishing the framers work. It started with one thing..so I fixed it. The next day..one thing. No big deal I have the know how and the tools. Then two things..starting to get upset. Skylight framed wrong…getting pissed. NO WALL FOR THE MASTER SHOWER!! ok this is the last thing i fix…today found out that the other bath wall was 8 inches to long.(5′ 8″) called him and he swears he will come by. you may ask yourself, ” why didnt you call him back immediatley” I did. He never put up my breakfast bar wall which he swore just sat on top of the cabinets. (where he gets that from I dont know..36 is nowhere close to 42) and he come out and did it and never nailed it down nor did he do the other things on the punchout list. So I just began fixing things myself. Today..I had enough.
live and learn..whenI hired him I had utmost confidence in him.
just curious
Replies
I'm not a production framer by any means, the two things that stuck out for me were
The R/O for doors seems too big, "we" go 2 in sometimes gets fugded to a little better then 2 but never 3
Caps on the ground are a huge pet peive of mine, its just plain dangerous, they always point up and somebody will step on them, works boots aren't usually affected or they aren't long enough to get at the foot, but anyone with sneakers is going to have a puncture wound.
What you describe is not SOP, at least it wasn't 25 years ago when I was framing. Of course air nailers were not that common then either.
Have you paid the guy his final yet? If not, just call him and ask that he come by to go over your corrections list, so you can adjust his price, for the work you have done. After all it is only fair that the two of you agree on what was done, as you did on what was suppose to be done :)
Dave
1. What you consider as "normal" framing for a corner isn't necessarilly normal for everyone else. Lots of different ways of doing things - And it varies from one region to the next. Even from one framer to the next.
2. Three inches seems wrong, but they may have a reason. Some guys around here like tighter rough openings, some looser. There's a bit of room there for personal preference. But 3" seems like too much.
3. Guess they figured no one would see it once the roof was on. I'd say it's sloppy, but not necessarilly wrong.
4. Nails everywhere bugs me too. Aside from the posibility of stepping on them, there are flat tires and just the fact that you have to clean up after 'em. But again - This varies from one area to the next. In some places, crews clean up after themselves. In others, the GC is expected to.
I'd say it's reasonable to talk to the guy about your concerns. Most people want their framing cheap and fast, and only question quality after the fact.
Ambiguous headline: PROSTITUTES APPEAL TO POPE
Where was his price in the bidding process?
Hope the Bum has not been paid in Full. HOLD a % of his money until you pass your rough inspection or you may have bigger problems then you have Now! The job site should be as clean when they leave as it was when they started. Add this word to his vocabulary BACKCHARGE!
Edited 5/1/2003 8:25:10 AM ET by G80104
1. Their corner posts,..normally two 2x4s with 2x4 blocks in the middle, had no blocks. The same with their "T's" they just sit there waiting to bow. He told me that is wasnt needed (blocks)..I disagree.
Unless there is a code infraction regarding this issue, you really have no beef. Every carpenter has his own way of adressing a variety of issues. Would you apreciate having someone looking over your shoulder telling you, you were doing your job wrong?
2. There R.O. for doors are almost three inches more than the door itsself..Isnt that a bit much?
It is a bit much.....but Ive had coworkers complain that my two inch allowance is too tight. Wait till you hang the doors, if the framing isnt plumb, you may be greatful for the extra inch.
3. When they stapled the decking, they missed and missed and missed and if a staple bent, they didnt pull it. The roofers were upset and I dont blame them.
This is sloppy....one of the reasons I prefer nails to staples...easier to pull the nails that miss.
4. Nails and caps everywhere. Not evn an effort to pick up
Thats a contractual issue. I include "broom swept" as to the degree of cleanliness in my contracts when framing.
Sounds like you have some legit beefs....hold final payment until you are satisfied. Be sure to make note of all of your corrections.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
I'm with Jaybird on this, differant framing crews have dramatically differant standards. which you choose often isn't a matter of price (some of the sloppiest i've seen have charged over $8 a sq.ft. plus extras) but rather their practice.. If they've been building for a developer and that developer accepts those practices there is no-one to point out what they are doing wrong..
Around here most framing crews use rough terrain forklifts for speed and ease. as a result they usually wait on the backfill untill the house is weathered in and then send the dozer out to do final grading once the heavy equipment is off the yard..
That means a lot of nails etc. simply get plowed into the ground..
the good crews all seem to have their own bucket and do it as a final clean-up. Nails scraps and etc. gets tossed into the bucket and dumped into the dumpster. then the bucket is used to back drag the tracks out and do final rough grading..
"I include "broom swept" as to the degree of cleanliness in my contracts "
Jay ,
You know it's funny you use that phrase. Back when I purchased my house my dad (an NYC attorney) put the same language in the contract he drew up. When my Wisconsin attorney reviewed it, she asked "what does that mean?" "Never heard that term used." Must be a New York thing. After the closing it was obvious the former owners didn't know either.
Jon
It sounds as though you are your own general contractor doing only one job.
It is hard to hire people for a short time that will share your opinions of what is right and necessary.
I will say one thing about 3" gaps around doors. You should cut up some 3/4" or 1/2" plywood strips to act as fillers. Then before the doors are hung you can adjust the openings sideways.
If I were you, I would hire some local kids to clean up everyday.
Kick back, relax. Being a GC is a long term job.
As a framing sub I feel qualified to throw my two cents in. My first question is how many bids did you get? Correct me if I'm wrong but my guess is these guys were the cheapest or he gave you a real good price, too good to pass up. Framing is just like anything else ,"you get what you paid for". How many times I've had to lower my price to match some hack that isn't paying his help a decent wage.
Too answer your questions there should be 3 studs in any exterior corner doors should be framed 2" bigger than your door size. The rest is just people in too much of a hurry which happens every time you get a lowball bid. Good Luck
Dont really have anything to say that hasnt already been said but....
Are you acting as the GC or are you just fixing framing probs as you find them ( Im guessing that you are the GC)? What does the contract say? Are there any specifics on how the framing is to be done? 3" + door does seem a little wide for the r.o. We usually do 2", maybe 2 1/2 depending. Was the sheathing nailing problem bad enough to be a code violation?
Not sure if this is legal or what, but keep track of your hours and back charge ( or deduct from his final payment) him for the amount of time you have spent having to fix the framing problems.
Good luck! I hate having to do what I call punch list frameing ( fixing all the framing that was screwed up...... adding blocking, changing header heights, nailing off loose boards, etc)
M2akita
im with stossel with this one- done alot of production/ and high end framing . and it sounds like a dont look back scenario, any framing neophyte nows the two inch s.o.p. on standard interior doors. and stapling the FLOOR as opposed to screwing/and even nailing takes a little more time. but prevents squeakin' call backs, what was the dollar per square foot bid?? how thick was the ply stapled down. on a roof i 've seen the ply buckle after a couple years if it is'nt nailed correctly. shiners(misses) are verbotten. with staples only one leg of staple grabs the gauge is'nt enough to hold the ply, with temp changes(depends on which zone your in). exterior corners if load bearing they should be solid if not load bearing a block substitute is cool same w/interior. i use three blocks on a standard 8' walls with insulation tucked in the voids. your going to get a lot of advice on this one. this is my 2 ¢ worth hope it all adds up to dollars for you..... cheers bear
I'm really surprised to see so many people frame ro's 2" over door size. I hate everyone of you.
You have to frame them 2 1/2", or more for some bi-folds and exterior doors.
When I've had problems with subs, it's generally due to lack of oversight. I've had a lot better results since I started making it policy that the subcontractor himself paid regular visits to ensure that his crew was meeting job specs.
A framing crew or drywalling crew or concrete crew with weak supervision usually results in the kind of thing you're dealing with. If the owner is part of the crew, he needs a few GC's like you to raise his performance bar a few notches.
I don't accept that speed and a sloppy job/messy worksight go hand in hand. I'm working with a framer right now that is living proof that speed and attention to detail and a neat worksite are not exclusive virtues.
I agree with Qtrmeg, 2 1/2" r.o. allows a shim space of 1/2" on either side of a jamb 2" only gives you 1/4" and if the opening isn't perfectly sq or plumb makes for difficult door installation.Vince Carbone
any pro will leave ajob site as clean as he found it or better, this includes framers, roofers what ever
3 inch ro is too much, 2 inch is an acceptable standard here in canada
hold back your final payment until those standards are met
I don't understand how someone could hire a framing subcontractor without checking out his work by walking through some of the frames he has done. With these types of gripes, I'm assuming you did not. A good framer will be structurally sound, neat, clean, and not the cheapest price, -- Just your best value. You probably got what you paid for. If I'm wrong with these assumptions, I apologize, and you may disregard the above comments.
woody, you are wrong and I accept your apology. I did walk his jobs and I had referalls from the local lumber yard. He wasnt the cheapest he was mid way. He had a crew of ten and knew what he was doing. He just did a crappy job on my house. He had too many jobs in front of him and played the odds. " will the home owner find out about this? will he notice that?" The sad thing is that I did give final paymnet on the day they wrapped up. He just kept saying he would be back to finish this or that. They are local and he just bough a hous so I trusted him.
It aint over....trust me. It is a small town and my dad happens to have his own local tv show and a colomn in the newspaper. Nothing will ever happen in that regard but people know my dad and like him.....that should scare anybody into making things right. Could you imagine screwing over a tv guy that DID misuse that power. It would crush your business. My dad would never do that nor would I ask him to entertain the idea. word of mouth is a far sharper sword. and it is fun knowing that they know I know they know ,...you know.?
I was taught to only allow 2" over the call size. Yes, More for bi folds and exterior doors with thicker jambs.
I was also taught to check openings for PLUMB AND LEVEL and parellel before leaving the job. With good layout and good framing this shouldn't be a problem anyway.
With door jamb stock getting thinner, (I've seen 5/8's thick), It makes it even worse to have to add some 1/2" material to the opening. Having 1/2" or more shims behind the top hinge is not my idea of a well hung door.
But then, hey. Down here they rely on the caulk arount the casing to hold the door in place.
Just my opinion, Jack.
As a finish carpenter I would like to see all interior RO's framed to 2 1/2". Frenchdoors should be 3" RO's.
Figure a 2-0 door at 24" + (1/8x2 margin=1/4")+ 2 jamb thicknesses 1 1/2"= 25 3/4".
That leaves 1/4 divided by two, or 1/8" each side of the door jamb.....not enough.
Back when I was framer we always left 2 1/2" RO's.
Derrell Day
Dayco Construction
I've seen 2-0 doors that were 23-3/4" and jambs 5/8".
I'd rather nail the jamb to solid wood on one side, preferably the hinge side, and shim the other than have to add 1/2" or more of shims to the hinge side.
Never needed the x-tra 1/2" until moving to the south. I will say I've been thankful for it at times so I didn't have to go back to the truck and get a bigger hammer to beat the opening plump to get the door in the opening.
I have allways said that we are the largest group of unorganized labour in North America. And until we do something about this this type of complaint will be common. I'm not talking about unionizing but if there were some universal guidelines as to what exactly framing is....or what a "framer contractor" is sapose to do then everyone would be better off...I'd like to see a checklist style contract for every trade where we just fill in the blanks for names and addresses,start date ,expected time of construction, payment schedules, and then a check list to be filled out and signed by both parties....
the check list would cover every thing from who cleans up and who disposes of the waste to nailing patterns to different framing techiques (3 stud corners vs 2 stud corners) to who installs the exterior doors to who installes the exterior door hardware........
I've been framing all my working life and the first thing I do when I get onsite is to go over all the R.O.s with the G.C. or owner. I ask if they want intersection partitions framed with 3 full studs or 2 studs and blocks and a hundred other things.....
As with any situation, comunication is the biggest tool we can use, but some of us arn't as good as others so a written checklist would be useful. If all the items were agreed upon before the work was started things would work out just fine ....
You want to take the fun out of it? Come on every body needs a little blood boiling to get that final payment
"But you're supposed to do this"
"Does my contract say that"
"What contract?"
"The one you signed"
"I can't even read let alone write" LOL!!!!
Just remember oats that have already been through the horse are cheaper than oats that haven't.
What contract?
LOL
The one that says the money stays in my pocket until I am satisfied. If there is no contract, once I paid the money, i have accepted the work. All I can do after that is talk.
I used to frame 2" over for doors untill I started to use quality doors and found that they have thicker jambs and need more room. No reason to complain about 3 over but 2.5 is best.
A lot of the other junk is sloppy framing but it is way too common. When I was in Colorado, I spent two winters as a backup framer on condos. One reason they wanteed me doing it was that too many other framers couldn't understand what was necessary. I think I saved the company half my wages just by communicating things with the main frame crews to get it right the first time. A lot of them just didn't know. too easy to buy a nail bnag and hammer and call your self a carpenter.
I enjoyed doing backup though because I'm patient and because I enjoy working alone..
Excellence is its own reward!
I spent about nine years as a "pickup" framer for a framing crew in Chico Ca in the 80s. We were framing about five hundred units a year.. My job was quality control. Under the eaves I checked for shiners behind the sheathers. The roofers showed up the next day and then it was too late to back out the nails or staples. I framed skylight wells ,soffits and chimney chases. We checked door openings. Our openings were 2.5" over. If the opening is only 1/4" out of plumb or if a trimmer is bowed then you can lose your 1/2" of shim space. We always added 5.5" to the opening to get our header length. We also cross sighted the door openings to make sure the opening was flat. A door won't close properly if the opening is not flat. Some hacks move the door stop when hanging the door to "fix" a door out of plane. The pickup crew also hung all the windows. After all the other trades were done roughing in we went back and straightened or replaced crooked studs. Sometimes a stud starts out straight but after a week in the hot sun it becomes a banana.
The mistake the GC made was paying before checking the work. That is a rookie mistake. Check all the trades and get things right before you cut a check for the final draw. There is no incentive to come back when they are paid in full. Trying to destroy their reputation because you paid early is a little low. I would shut up and consider it a lesson.We may be slow, But we're expensive.
The only way to get what you want is to communicate what you want UP FRONT. Not all framers frame the same way...though we all know that!
When I got into construction as a business, I simply used graphics adapted from the pages of Rob Thallon's Graphic Guide to Frame Construction.
Easy.
This is how you'll do corners. This is how you'll do windows...dormers...etc, etc. Nailing schedules were defined. Do you have a different way? A better way? If they did and it was acceptable to me, I adapted to their ways.
In the end, we were all on the same page...literally. No confusion, no questions.
Cutawood, you simply got screwed by a bad/indifferent/apathetic crew.
graphics good.
words mean nothing
money - I listen
us knuckle draggers kick you - you listen
LOL
It's true that too many carpenters have as much trouble reading and understanding words and too many HO's have trouble reading and understanding floorplans. communications needd to be clear and up-front..
Excellence is its own reward!
Is it just me or does this thread SCREAM of lack of supervision? I've gotten behind a few times and had to sub out a frame or two. But I went to the site when they are getting started and stopped by a few times to make sure everything was being done as though me and my crew were doing it. I checked all the important stuff in the evenings when they left, and made notes on what to change, and what was marginal in my opinion.
Corners are subjective, all do it different...be there when they do the first, and get it your way. Plans specify R.O. for doors.....get it correct.
Being a GC is just a glorified babysitter....deal with it.
Yup. No ice cream cone until you finish your spinach..
Excellence is its own reward!
I agree.
It is unreasonable to expect strangers to work to your standards without some guidance.
I'm sure you think you have a clue, but get back to me after you either check specs or hang a few thousand doors. You just don't know what the problem is with 2" over.
You could write me a story about all the work that top hinge shim does, I'm all ears.
Have a Stanley brand tape measure, reads 23-3/4" wide door. Same tape reads 5'8" thick jamb. Never gave it a thought the tape was giving me "clues". Coup'la thousand doors before moving to the south and coup'la thou more doors after.
What else?
As mentioned before, NEVER had a problem with being only 2" over until moving to the south, i.e. sloppy framing.
Recently followed a framing crew from CA. relocated to the south. Openings are only 2" over. The oither trim guys on my crew were astounded on how much easier it was to hang the doors.
As mentioned before, Openings need to be plumb and parellel! Shouldn't be a problem with good layout an good framing.
Jack.
Edited 5/2/2003 8:10:58 PM ET by JackWoody
The height is the big thing, do the math.
Still waiting for you to tell me all about the top hinge shim. I did see you like to nail the hinge side to the jack, hmm. We won't ever agree how to hang a door.
No biggie, I'm not here to change your mind, and I doubt you will change mine.
Be good.
Didn't see where height was part of the discussion, hmm. Don't have to agree, just have to get it done.
Only see an arguement in discussing the top hinge. Not here to argue or change anybodies mind. Just here to share experience and learn.
OK, It's entertainment as well when a certain dyslexic poster is involved
Well, I've been out of touch lately, bad modem, but I could'nt resist replying to this one. You know yourself that the framing crew you hired hasn't done right by you. Whether they left 2" or 3" over for the doors is immaterial. It sounds to me like they came in, slammed the job and didn't look back. In my opinion, you deserve more than that. Anyone who hires a crew deserves more than that, regardless if the crew was low bidder or high bidder. When I get a bid to frame or trim or build cabs, I obligate myself to do the best job I am capable of. If it turns out that I've forgotten something, or for some other reason the contractor/homeowner is dissatisfied, its my top priority to do what I can to alleviate the problem. I've framed my doors 2" over for years and never had a squawk on them. Bifolds are 2" over, bipasses are 1" over. I know it works, because I've trimmed out a lot of my framing. I know that it won"t work like that everywhere, because different lumber suppliers use different door shops who get different size slabs and use different size stock for jambs, etc. But to make a short story long, if I were you I'd be upset, too and I'd be looking for some satisfaction financially. Would that bonehead frame his own house so sloppy? I think not.
thank you.. I saw the owner today. I asked him for some financial restitution for all my time and h merely said, "you should have called ME".{as opposed to the lead man on the job, (whoalways did the punch out half ####)} He agreed to rip down my front porch and get it straight this time. He spent two hours replacing what his lead man had done and he looked alittle upset too. I also asked him if he had put sill sealer down like they were supposed to, and he said "oh YES!!" as soon as they left I broke out the saw zall and removed a section of plate....nothing there. Called him back and he said I must of hit a bad spot. So I gave hime a benefit of a doubt and tried another peice of plate.....nothing there.
What really erks me is that if I were in a position of ignorance in this field, I would have never know. Luckily I know what to look for and I dont think they counted on that.
I live in a small town 100,000. Word travels fast.