My boss is having a dickens of a time finding people to hire. The guys that come in look good on paper and when you get them out to the job, if they even show up, their horrible. I was wondering what others look at/for when interviewing potential employees.
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Ask for and check references, always. There are a lot of deadbeat morons out there. It cost a lot of money dealing with them. Also, ask them what they read. I want somebody on the job that can think for themselves and wants to learn more, not somebody that is there for the paycheck and is asking for a front on Wednesday.
Scott
Edited 1/28/2003 10:21:53 PM ET by SWDD
Having a family to support is good too. Less likely he'll take a day off. His wife may act as your allie but then again she may also encourage him to ask for a raise. If the latter is the case, she may also encourage him to do better....Har! Har! Har! Har! Har! Har! Har! Har! Har! Har! Har! Har! Har! Har! Har! Har! Har! Har! Har! Har! Har! Har!
Unfortunatly Frankie it is illegal to ask a job applicant if he is married or has a family to support. Federal law.
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"Function is based
on more than utilitarian factors. Ambiance invites use."- Sarah Susanka
One of my old employers had a simple trick which I think made a difference. When people cam in to apply for jobs, he made them fill out the application there at the office. The ones who couldn't read or write would refuse, and would leave.
You could tell a fair amount out just by how they filled out the application. If it was sloppy as heck, or they didn't complete it, it was a pretty good indication of how they would do.
Not a perfect hiring system, but an indication.
According to the latest poll, 61% of Americans think OJ did it. The other 39% don't think.
When my brother owned a courier company and people called up to answer ads for drivers, he would tell them the address of the office, and if they asked for directions, he told them no, that was part of the test.
Here's an idea that we do here. During the interview ask the applicant how many sixteenths in an inch. You'd be surprised at some of the answers.
Dana
Salmon Falls Housewrights
Hey Disc Jockey,
After much calculations and consultations with the designated cat, it has been determined that there is one sixteenth in an inch. The reasoning is as follows--
One sixteenth, one eighth, three sixteenths, one quarter, five sixteenths and so on. Some may argue that you add them all up = 1 + 3 + 5 + 7 + 9 + 11 + 13 + 15 = 64. But they are dead wrong. three sixteenths are not the same as one sixteenth.
Hire me.
--Peter
Good answer. Not the one we are looking for. LOL.
Dana
Salmon Falls Housewrights
Something an old guy I knew would tell people he interviewed, come to work for the first week and then we will determine your wage after the first week. Basically the guys knew he would be paid for the first week, just didnt know how much. A range of lowest to highest was given to the prospect.
Those who were confident in there abilty took the jobs and usually worked out, those who refused probably werent very good
I dont know how well it would work because there may be a lot of quite compitent people who are just uncomfortable with not knowing what their wage will be before taking a job
Edited 1/29/2003 3:49:11 PM ET by CAG
This is what happened when I went to work for a production shed builder. (Not what I do any more, only did it for 3 months to get away from a job I hated more than anything)
The guy who ran the place had prospective hires ride with an installer for a day, then come in the shop and build a free one for stock. Both days are no pay, but you both get a look at what's going on.
dcas..... what country / century would this be in ?
2 days no pay for a trial ?...... eeka - neeeka... man they musta been lined up on the sidewalk to sign on....
tell me more... this is gudMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
That was my first thought too!
Wow...no pay...that'll get the good guys thru the door.
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
DCASSII-"The guy who ran the place had prospective
hires ride with an installer for a day, then come in the shop and build a
free one for stock. Both days are no pay, but you both get a look at
what's going on."
Ya know also from this past summer I recall that the article I read about
the company that inspired my starting the Pricing
for ‘perceived value’ discussion
did something like that.
From:Custom woodworking Business Pushing
the Limits Doing the unusual jobs ‘that nobody else wants to do’ is
standard
fare at Philip Sicola Designs.
While I think that may work for Philip Sicola Designs I'm no so sure it's
the best strategy for every company. Personally I would consider auditioning
for PSD but I certainly wouldn't do it for a "production shed builder". However
I can imagine there are prospective worker out there who would. I work very
closely with another company that does "outdoor architecture" and I could see
something like that possibly working for him.
View Image
"Function is based
on more than utilitarian factors. Ambiance invites use."- Sarah Susanka
Edited 1/29/2003 6:23:32 PM ET by Jerrald Hayes
FLIPMO82 your question goes along the same lines as what motivated me to ask
about the same kind of thing here last summer with Seeking
feedback on Job Application form and it's follow up Job
Interview Questions. I thought it was very interesting and revealing what
everybody's varied reactions were to the different techniques and ideas I threw
out there for criticism. I think getting this part, the recruiting and hiring,correct
is perhaps the real foundation of building a great company. I think hiring
a good staff
is a lot like building a great baseball team or any
other
team
for
that
matter.
I've been researching and reading about this for a while. The concept of building
a Good Employment Brand so to speak. The idea being getting the really
good people to WANT to work for your company.
You know one of the sentiments that I did pick up on in some of the replies
to the Job
Interview Questions discussion was that my approach intimidated some people
and would turn off some applicants. On the one hand while I thought some
people here were reading more into those questions than they should I have
actually found that the thoroughness and depth of those questions weeds out
a lot of personalities that regardless of their skill sets would not be a good
fit in our work environment.
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"Function is based
on more than utilitarian factors. Ambiance invites use."- Sarah Susanka
My boss has the same problem as yours. They all look good in the interview, then when it's time to get to work they all want to bonk. He tells them up front what's expected. Lots of overtime, lots of travel, lots of diversity, so on and so forth. They all eat it up, then when the time comes to put up or shut up, they drop out like flys. they act insulted if you want them to stay over, and when after hours or weekend jobs come up they all want to renegotiate. It kills me the amount of guys that want to talk raise when the job gets tough.
Anyway if you come up with a winner let me know.
FLIPMO82 I just read a post that Stephen Hazlett made in another discussion
here that if you havn't seen it already you might find it interesting too.
Check out messages#
26499.19 in the Old Timers discussion.
View Image
"Function is based
on more than utilitarian factors. Ambiance invites use."- Sarah Susanka
We are trying to hire a management spot that pays in local industry around $60k. One resume came in handwritten on notebook paper, another listed his elementary school first. I did masonry long time ago, that was a tough trade to keep help. So my thoughts on construction industry employment in general:
1. Drug test the hell out of people. Fire alcoholics. It makes keeping labor tougher but pays off in the long run. We have a service that pulls a van up to a job site and piss tests everybody on our payroll. You will end up with a better quality of worker.
2. Learn some spanish. Here in mid-size midwest town a lot of available labor is hispanic. and hardworking. and lacks english skills.
3. Don't ask on your application about criminal background. Most people lie. Most people in the trades have felony convictions in my experience. Some make better workers than others. The more despicable the crime, the harder the person is likely to try and be a good worker. Crack addicts are the worst imho, they have a very difficult time not going back to old patterns.
4. Brainstorm for places to recruit people. Plan on doing some training, or paying a serious premium for someone reliable. expect high turnover. AA meetings with fairly new people are a good place to find people.
remodeler
How about this. Pay a premium wage BUT only hire people referred to you by current empolyees.......with the condition that if the new empoyee F's up the refferal employee also gets fired!
I try, I repeat, "try" to hire cousins or same nationality etc. of current employees, first. They tend to promote staying on the straight and narrow. This is very true of immigrant workers. No this isn't a sweat shop. They simpley share MY work ethic.
But, the best worker always wins. I had 3 Hispanics working for me for 4 mos. Then along came this Jamacian guy. Unbeaivable worker. He did the job of two of the other guys and was punctual. They felt threatened or maybe simpley did not like him. So, they started only speaking spanish although their english was very good. This kept him left out. Needless to say the "team" feeling was lost. So, I fired the guy I felt was the instigator - of course after the proper public warnings to correct their behavior. It boiled down to efficiency and safety isssues. Two weeks later I fired a second guy. He thought I wasn't paying attention and if he continued quietly I wouldn't care. Wrong! The project finished with one Hispanic, one Jamacian, and me. We had a blast. Everyone's work and respect improved. The job took a bit longer because we were short handed but everything was done well and without much stress.
BTW - I have a policy that you get $1 -$2/ hr raise if you learn and become proficient at a new skill. If you're a laborer - zero knowledge - and then learn how to use a tape measure (not just buy one) you get a buck an hour more. If your a begining carp. and you learn how to cope mouldings you get more another $1/hr - permanently. That's the only way people get raises in my Co.
Most Americans applicants ask what my sick day, holiday and vacation policy is during the first interview, while the immigrant asks if there is more than 40hrs available/ week. Although few people will ever admit to not knowing something, the imigrant is usually more willing to learn and is proud when he does. Americans just want more money for "knowing" more even though they dont have the hands-on experience.
Your learning a second language shows respect and acceptance too.
Why do I feel I'm going to get pounded for American Bashing?
No, you're on the ball Frankie,
I have a friend in Long Island that has a landscape co. Got sick of hiring people and 2 weeks later they buy a lawn mower and start their own business. He hired this Colombian guy and it seemed he didn't mind the long days and Saturdays. Now, my friend has an unlimited resource in his hands. He needs more labor, somebody has a brother. They don't mind the 80 hour weeks and they have all winter off with a boat load of money in their pockets. A lot of his guys have bought farms back in Colombia and their family manages them. Something these guys could only dream of before. Even better, there is a high level of respect all around.
Scott
Thanks for all the info guys. I'll pass some of it on to the boss.
Gotta tell ya, these issues are what I deal with all day, every day, as a professional construction recruiter and while there are no easy answers -- just like in building/remodeling -- there are some tricks of the trade and industry standards that will help.
I work with most of the high-end homebuilders/remodelers in the Boston Area to help them find good people, so I spend most of my time interviewing,screening and -- usually -- turning away potential hires.
The single best key I've found can be summed up in one word: REFERENCES. And not just the references you're given by the candidate. If I don't know someone (who knows someone) that knows the candidate and can speak to the type of guy they are, I will seldom if ever recommend them to my clients.
Since I spend so much time dealing with local builders/remodelers, it's pretty rare that I don't personally know their past employer or someone they've worked who will give me the real low-down.
In my experience most of the REALLY good guys that I meet have some common traits that you'll want to be on the lookout for. First, they're usually fairly modest. They know they're pretty good, but also know they have a lot to learn. They're also, usually, NOT out of work when they call me. Usually they're just considering a sensible next step. Not to say there aren't some great guys on the street these days... but I'm talking about real "A List" guys.
It's also worth noting that many of the successful, highly organized builders/remodelers around here have taken to some form of personality screening or indexing. Not as gospel, mind you, but as a helpful indicator. If someone is naturally a "linear" thinker -- one project at a time -- then you sure as hell don't want to hire them for a role that has a lot of juggling.
Much more to say on the issue of finding great guys, but that's a start.
The other side of the coin -- equally important -- has been touched on already. That is... you've got to have a company that ATTRACTS the best talent. There's an old saying in this business: "A" candidates to "A" companies, "B" candidates to "B" companies...", and that's the secret to great match making. Even in the worst economy, the real superstars are still going to wind up at the best companies 9 times out of 10. Part of my job now is to know the market players, the clients and the candidates so well that my A clients only meet like candidates, and don't waste one molocule of energy on the rest.
As a former full-time (currently part-time) remodeler myself, I know how hard it is to find good people. As a 7 year professional recruiter, I've seen just about every stupid, slimy misrepresentation in the book and by now have gotten pretty good at making great matches. Hope some of this is helpful.
Good hiring!
Brian
Brian Roberts
Construction Recruiters
Suite One, The Courtyard
46 Waltham Street
Boston MA, 02118
617.422.0888 x 203
http://www.construction-recruiters.com
Specializing in the placement of Chief Executives, VP’s, Financial Officers, Project Managers, Estimators, Schedulers, Engineers, Architects, Site Supers, Project Assistants etc..... In companies involved in Commercial, Institutional, Civil, Medical & Biotech, Telecom & Smart Building, Design-build, Retail fast-track, Home builders, Vertical and Horizontal Construction, AE, MEP, EE, etc.
Give em a stack of studs,a nail gun,a saw,and 1/2 hour with no instruction.Tell em to make a sawhorse.No horse,no job.A good horse with minimal scrap,premium pay.Depends on what you do.
I am a sucker for guys that compliment my style and want to work and learn from me. If they are stinking of alcohol or scruffy and homeless looking, then go back down the road. Usually the boss that asks for drug tests are drug addicts themselves and have to stop every five minutes for a cigarette. I won't hire smokers. It is illegal to ask but usually easy enough to tell(smell). I don't care if they smoke pot as long as they don't smoke at work. Some of my most skilled and happy workers smoke a little pot sometimes. Meth or crack? Forget it. Racist comments? Your fired.
What you read is important. A subscription to FHB is desirable. New Yorker? Ok too. NASCAR fans? I'm wary. Strapping, strong? Good. Fat a$$?, No chance. College? Good! Dropout? No good. Veterans? Good. No experience? Depends. Life outside work like dog mushing or mountain biking? Good. Married, female or gay? Who cares.
I peek at their tools. If they are cheap or have someone elses name engraved on them, then no good. Nice, well maintained, sharp tools are a bonus. No tools? Better have youth.
heh, heh, let me guess, you let the dude in a waiting room, and you're peepeing through the peephole in the door. O.k., magazine table, has FHB, Hustler, Times, etc, also has ash tray. Lite's up dooby while flipping through Hot Rod magazine? Hire the dude.
Ok here we go,
Having not been a stellar employee in my younger years, I was still never a crack head or felon. the reason this happens is because thats the kind of people we fish for. Know it or not, the bait we dangle over the dock draws these people in.
First of all, of all the places i have ever worked, not many offered things like health insurance or a savings plan or even the kind of pay what we do should warrent. It's time the people in the construction industry clawed our way up to respectability. If you want top notch, educated help you have to pay for it. Pay isn't always money. How about a good health insurance plan. Maybe a SEP would be nice too. The people you work for all demand these things, or they wouldn't take the jobs. Thier companies pass the cost along to the consumer as a cost of doing business. Why don't we?
I'm not the greatest business person but a hell of a carpenter. I'm on leave until april 15th after being deployed for a year with my reserve unit. I have two choices. I can stay on as an advisor to the reserves. Or, break out the tools and go back to work. I have plenty of customers and can go back to work for myself any time. i would rather go to work for someone. Here's the catch. At my pay grade, my take home pay from the army will be equal to $60,000 a year. plus one months vacation and an awsome health care plan. what will a good high end builder or contractor offer me. Lets see:
I'm a 36 year old man in good shape. I have a 1996 chevy 1500 truck that looks like new. I have all my own tools, not junk either. I have two framing nailers, two finish nailers,a brad nailer, two circular saws(dewalt and proter-cable), bosch jig saw,dewalt recip saw, makita mitre saw, dewalt table saw. You get the picture, enough to fill up two trucks. I have experience framing,trimming and building stairs and rails. I have run a crew on everything from remodels to new homes. i can work alone, deal with the customer, and get the job done. The only two things i don't do are tile and drywall. Inever shy away from responsability.
What would i be worth in different areas of the country? I would need about $25 an hour plus a health plan. Not likely to happen.
Now that i'm done ranting, heres the best method i have seen yet. An old guy i worked for used to say " you can tell a man by what he drives, and you can tell a carpenter by his saw horses". Fred was never wrong.
Every body here who wants the educated respectable carpenter to work for them need s to pay for that and they will get it. If not, you'll still be dealing with the dregs of society and complaining about it twenty years from now.
Believe it or not, those jobs are out there. I know because I have one. I suspect there are others too. Keep building.
the top lead at my old company is making $20/hr. The next coupla in line are at $18.
I still say not enough..that's why I'm on my own...but it's pretty close. And Pgh is a fairly low cost of living place. They also get to but into a medical plan....401K....paid holidays.... paid vacation according to yrs worked.
Might not be $25....but there are jobs that offer close. Their package was the main reason I chose to work there in the first place.
I too, consider myself top notch..and wouldn't work for less.
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
First of all, let me just say that this may or may not work for everyone/anyone, but it has worked for me, as I have been on the same production framing crew for a year exactly now, and gotten three pay raises in the process:
1) I am dependable. Been late three days in 365, always called the boss to let him know I was on my way.
2) Have reliable transportation. Only day I've taken off is to have a flat fixed from a nail in tire the preceeding day.
3) Always work weekends and overtime when asked to.
4) Always "ask" 2-3 days (at least) in advance if I wish to take a weekend off for personal business.
5) Have a complete set of framing tools that I have ocassionally volunteered to use on job site when conditons have dictated.
6) Always try to improve my speed, quality and efficiency.
7) Have self-imposed goals each day. (This can relate to #6 above.)
8) Do research on my own (such as this forum) and talk with my boss/crew leader about what I've learned.
9) I quit college because I felt it wasn't going anywhere and I loved working with tools and wood more anyway. I let my boss know up front I was motivated by love of the job, not by money. So far it has proved overwhelmingly beneficial.
10) My life outside of my job has been A) working on my own side projects, and B) working on my truck, and recently C) working on developing an engagement.
While I'm only 20 years old and I've only been framing for a year, I speak from the experience of one who was the "new guy" not very long ago. And again, my system has worked very well for me this time, as it has in the past. In closing, I'd say that self-motivation and self-discipline are the two biggest things to look for; everything can be negotiated. I.e., if a person doesn't really want to learn a trade and only shows up for the paycheck, he/she is never really going to get anywhere and you are wasting your time and money.
You make it sound like finding workers like yourself is as simple as just knowing what to look for. The truth is that you are an exception and if you are as you describe yourself (which I'm sure you are) your boss is a lucky man right now. I predict that you will be working for yourself long before you are 30. I went to college for two years and quit when I was 20 because I knew I liked to build, I ran a framing crew at the age of 23. Now I'm 38 and been a licensed contractor for 12 years and earn over 100k / year. College is very important. But not for everyone. I know that there are disciplined and devoted young workers out there, but finding you guys is a challenge.
As the old saying goes, 'You pay peanuts, you get monkeys."
Ken Hill
Gotta say up here in Boston(and Boston area) you can't get anyone without a record/substance abuse problems to do anything(even maintenance really) for less than $25/hour unless they are your own employee. I bill myself and my employee out at approximately $33/hour on our jobs with buffer hours in the bid in case it goes long(8hours for every 6 worked about) doing walls, doors, cabinets, custom metal pieces, alittle trim. Some people have sticker shock on the first bill but by and large we have more going on than we can handle.
-Ray
Dad,
I can only say you are right about me being the exception! I have seen eight helpers come and go in a year of working. The problem is, no one wants to work to my boss's standards or show up every day on time. He pays extremely well, but demands A LOT from us. It's fair in my view though.
As far as going out on my own, yeah I'm already looking at the possibility but just don't know enough right now. I'm only 20, however, and I'm the second highest paid crew member, so it is not a critical issue.
" no one wants to work to my boss's standards or show up every day on time" That's a very true statement . It kills me to watch these guys. I'm from the school where you didn't ask for anything your first year, then you take what your given. We had a guy last week call in because he needed to fix the brakes on his car. He hasn't been here very long but it was explained to him rather loudly, that was the reason God made the weekend. Monday through Friday belongs work. He took the day off anyway and was written up and given crap jobs the rest of the week. The owner is old school and doesn't tolerate any bull crap from his guys. His partner who owns part of the security bussines is from the modern thinking. While he himself puts in tons of hours and shows up every day his guys roll all over him. They have one half of the building and we have the other half. It's quite a difference in people and attitude from one to the other.Who Dares Wins.