*
I’m interested to know what everyone else pays their help. From helper/apprentices to fine craftsman. Also how long you all give for lunch and breaks and do you pay for the lunchbreak. I’ve heard such varying differences.
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*
Andy,
I am locoated on the coast of Georgia, so my wages are probably lower than your area. I am currently paying a competent, skilled craftsman that works with me $19.00/hr. For an eager, english speaking laborer I pay about $10 - $11.00/hr. We specialize in high end custom remodels and more and more of our work is done on time and material or cost plus bids.
We take a 30 min. lunch. I don't pay for lunch breaks, although I do buy the guys lunch every once in a while.
*12 to 20 depending on ability... all on payroll and covered by WC...7 to 3:30 is an 8 hour day...we take a break from coffee and straggle back from lunch.. which is supposed to be 1/2 hour...in your pics you were talking about having to finish the work by yourself...been there & done... you have to charge more for your work so you can keep the good employee when you find him / her
*I pay an unskilled laborer,1st day on the job,no tools etc. $9/hr or $9.50/hr. If he is physically productive I bump him to $10/hr. within a day or so.If he doesn't make the commitment to slowly accumulate basic tools or never asks questions he will stay at $10/hr untill he quits.guys who own basic tools,basic transportation,and are competent in the basic skills get paid $13/hr to $15/hr. although I have paid as high as $17/hr.At this level I only expect basic competency-----I do not expect them to be able to handle more advanced layouts,project around dormers,flash chimneys or handle any rubber roofing.Anybody with those skills I would be happy to pay $20/hr plus ------unfortuneately not many guys like that are available at an hourly rate-----most are cutting corners and setting up as subs.All guys paid by the hour are covered by workers comp. and our liability policy.company t-shirts,company hooded sweatshirts,company hats and I give out misc. free tools on occasion.work will generally go from 7:30 or 8:00 till 2:00 or so.I rarely eat lunch on the job but employees are free to do so. If actual work is 5-6 hours they are paid for 7,if work is 6-7 hours they are generally paid for 8. If work is actually 8 hours or more they are paid for actual hours.I would rather work for 6 hours,pay for a full day and go home 2 hours early than have guys milking the clock. this includes all set up and breakdown time.
*Andy,You draw from a very different labor force than most of the guys here. $9-10 unskilled semi-English speaking. $15 unskilled English speaking. $20-25 skilled. And you know how hard it is to get anyone skilled. Unless you want me to work for you. Then it's going to cost you a whole lot more. But I'm always there for you.SHG
*Shg, Its close to impossible to find skilled labor thats reliable..why do you think I learned to do almost EVERYTHING? When I'm in a pinch I can always do it,,,ugh. I know, I know....just can't help it sometimes. If you wanna work for me you'll have to cut your dreadlocks, shave the beard, and take all those earrings out of your ears.oh yeh, the nose ring too..lol
*Not the nose ring, man. Never the nose ring.SHG
*Andy, I had a guy working this fall( very briefly)with Nipple Rings.I tried to explain that although he thought those were the coolest there was ZERO chance I or my customers wanted to see them.( personally I would have thought nipple rings were a chick thing)Gonna try a company policy in the spring----shirts mandatory at all times-----just to keep some of the scary tatoos undder cover.
*What do you mean, nipple rings are for chicks. You probably one of those guys who wears baseball caps backwards. Or worse yet, one of those chick babushka rags and thinks he looks like a pirate.BTW, what happened to Sonny?SHG
*Steve,I had to lay down the law on shorts. No more shorts on the job. I got tired of holding the ladder and looking at some guys short comings.Can you belive the way some people come dressed to work?Sandels? Mega-Death t-shirts? Shorts? You come to my job dressed for work. Not for going to the lake.Andy, Tim Thompson's wages in Georgia are in line with us in Texas. Ed.
*My only employee makes 19.25/hr.(So. Cal beach cities) and I give him a transponder to use the toll roads at my expense. WC and payroll taxes on top of that. He has 2 years exp. and always tries to do the best job. As I get older it seems that I just cannot except mediocre labor at any cost. So I do the work with my one employee. I may try to get a new guy in January for my Sinatra job. Big square rooms and long wide rectangular halls. GW
*I was thinkin' about this in the shower tonight. I'm in my mid 40's and I distinctly remember when I was a teenager starting out the best carpenter on our crew, a real pro, made less than 4.00/hr. Later, when I was in my mid 20's making 100.00/day I thought that was good money. Then, in my 30's 200.00/day was the norm, and now I don't think that's much money.My point is, when we look around for young folks to start out in the trades, are we thinking that 12.50/hr we start them at is "good money" to them? Or are we stuck in the past. What would our fathers have thought about a carpenter making 200.00/day? Now they're saying 40,000/year is poverty level for a family of 5. Hell, that's 20.00/hr, 40 hours a week, 50 weeks a year. That's what we pay good help, and wonder why we can't attract smart, ambitious young apprentices. I think it's because we ask them to work by what we consider "good money", not what looks like "good money" to them.On top of that, most of my customers are mid 30's or older. They have basically the same thoughts about wages I do and are hesitant to pay 40.00/hour for a helper just starting out. Kind of a tough thing to figure out, really.
*Hey Crazy Legs, I must live in the wrong area of the country. I have 8 yrs. experience, my own tools, truck, etc., and make about 2 bills a day. That is the going rate here in Philly. Where are you located? I gotta move there.
*200 a day.... day in , day out.. that's hog heaven !
*Soooooooooweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee !!
*Hey Crazy Laigs, you shore do think about different stuff in the shower than I do.
*> Hey Crazy Laigs, you shore do think about different stuff in the shower than I do.Luka,On behalf of all of us here at Breaktime, thank-you for not going into the details.Rich Beckman
*Yeah, that 200.00/day is about the goin' rate here in Western Washington too, but what I'm asking is, is that enough to entice smart young folks to work outside in the mud and the blood? Is it enough to raise a family on? What about when you're 50 and your back and knees are shot and your right elbow throbs and both your sholders hurt like hell every night? Is it any wonder young people look at us and say "no thanks, I want to be able to play tennis or ski with my grandkids"?Don't get me wrong, I'm glad I chose this profession, I can't imagine myself having done anything else all these years. But to be honest, I hope my kids make other choices. It's a fulfilling life, but it takes a hell of a toll on your body for the money you make.And yeah, Luka, I agree wholeheartedly with Rich Beckman, again.
*Go to college for 4 years and get an engineering degree and you get that $200+ a day plus medical benefits, 401k, paid vacation & holidays, consistent work etc. with in a year of your first job. I know accounting majors who have gotten their CPA and are making 6 figures only after 5 years of working. Kind of hard to compete with that. One of the differences I see in the so called professional world (at least in engineering/accounting/consulting)is that the employees will just not settle for lower pay. You either pay or I won't work for you and go else where. The employers pay if your good and it doesn't take much to be good now a days.What do the employers do, raise their prices to the public. The public pays so it all works out just fine.Something needs to change or else there won't be any skilled tradesman left.
*sean is right... so raise your rates so you can raise the pay..if convenience stores are paying $8...what should experienced carps get?and what should you pay to keep the good ones?
*Seems like an unending circle. After reading these posts I realized that the only good money I have made has been when I have been in charge of people. Not much money in the actual labor side of things. So I have been in management of one form or another until starting in business. Which is a form of management itself. I guess the question is what type of profit should you expect from one employees labor? $10, $20 an hour? I don't know. I always try for $10 over and above any other expenses per employee. (only have part timers) What do you experienced guys think? Is it a matter of being to greedy or not being able to charge more so we can pay more? Questions, question, the essence of life. :-) DanT
*Jim,I am not sure I really see your point.The fact that $10/hr is not really good money is irrelevant. Take a close look at the individuals earning that $10 and see what they bring to the table------no experience,no tools,no real skills,often no high school diploma,less than a stellar attitude,non professional appearance etc,and a poor parental example.Now what does that $10/hr wage earner recieve in return?Opportunity. A chance to learn a trade,accumulate his tools,learn personal responsibility by showing up for work,learn that money comes from accomplishing things--not from just putting in time. You would be suprised how many people I have had to teach how to cash a paycheck,how to open a bank account,how a checking account works,how dangerous credit cards can be,but what a huge tool credit is if used wisely.I will explain over time,why and how much we pay for advertising, how jobs are priced,what our rates are and why,why and how much we pay for insurance. In short these $10/hr. wage earners get an education and an opportunity to learn how to go into business for themselves.( I had a 17 year old last year earning about $10/hr. and he was the major bread earner in his household----out earning his parents.Weather $10/hr is good money is relative to your expectations)I reaaly think that most of us at that age were looking for an opportunity----money was an important but secondary consideration.BTW, when someone asks me for a job,I ask them what they can do. Then I ask them how much money they are looking for.The job applicant sets his price,not me.I also tell them that I look forward to paying them more,but they are gonna have to earn it.I don't know how it works in the carpentry trade,but in my trade the guys who are capable of earning more go into business for themselves as soon as possible. The money is made in business,not in working for wages.This is a dead end trade for wage earners,and a tough business to operate,but it can be fairly lucrative( remember every thing is relative according to expectations)
*Stephan, I totally agree with you. I've worked for people in this trade in my younger years that tried to keep me ignorant of anything I did other then the one specific job they had me doing...and thats all I ever did till I quit and found carpenters that were happy to teach me what they knew. Since I've been in my own biz (about 25 years)I try and give away all the trade secrets I know. Funny enough half the guys that have worked for me have to big an ego to accept what I tell them. They say they know better ways to do things....they don't last long by the way. I encourage them to learn and as rewards at times I would give them jobs of their own when I was to busy. Let them set their own prices and I'd set up the contract. I don't think I've ever had anyone for less then 3-4 years. They loved working along side me. The more they eventually earned for me the more I paid them. Never looked to keep anyone stupid so they didn't move on and always paid them what they were worth. Besides the money they earned..the education they got was worth their pay doubled. Each and every one of my past employees now has their own businesses and are doing well. I get calls from them once in awhile thanking me. Theres no fear in me of losing a good worker...it happens and always will. Theres always someone else. Plus it makes ME feel good to help people along their way. When I place an ad for helpers I never word it "helper". I always word it "apprentice". That cogitation implies I'm willing to teach if they're willing to learn.
*Andy,I will freely admidt that I am no saint and that I am tired of having to run social engineering projects on my own nickel.I do try to offer people the opportunity that was not really available to me circa 1980.I like the idea of"apprentice".perhaps that would attract a different mind set.
*Yeah, I guess I did ramble on there, Stephen, sorry. My point about wages was that I catch myself thinking in terms of what carpenters have made, not what my time is worth to me. Folks like you and me, who have been in the trades for years, have a wage in mind to start an apprentice out at, based on the money we expect them to generate for the business. And a part of that figuring is what we believe we can charge for our services. But what I'm sayin' is, if we want to attract young people who will approach this as a profession, instead of just a temporary job, then we should be paying them a livable wage. Or at least they should be able to see that carpenters (or roofers) with 20 years experience have a good life. And 25.00/hr, which seems to be pretty much the norm around the country, is only about 50k a year. And even though our fathers would have considered that a hell of a good wage, it's not much these days.Just one little tangent, the thought again occurs to me that our wage/value system is just about upside down in this society - the people who we need the most, like the farmers who feed us, the truck drivers who distribute that food, the tradespeople who build our shelter, the teachers who work with our young, the people who pump our septic tanks, are at the low end of the earning scale. Something just seems upside down there to me.
*jim .. i think you have an inflated idea of what people make...you are projecting what you read in the paper...there are some union postions that amke $50 K.. but the average wage earner with say 15 years on the job is making half of that....the problem is.. the people who are making $50 k think they are underpaid....correct me if i'm wrong.. as a matter of fact, let's dig up some census numbers about what people REALLY do make...remember... not everyone lives in NYC... or the industrial north... or maybe i just stopped paying attention..to what people are making .. but i don't think so...remeber about two years , maybe one year ago.. Life Magazine ran a cover story about 100's of people and what they really make... big eye opener...... hey .. back to the salt mines...
*One more try.Bureau of Labor Statistics data for carpenters in all 50 states.National average is 16.88 or 35,100 per year.Here is where I got the data.
*Ilinois?????????Geez..Alaska I can understand but Illinois????? Whats goin' on there that they get payed so much?
*Andy - Strong union pressence, I bet.Mike, you said yourself you thought 200.00/day, day in, day out, was hog heaven, didn't you? Isn't that 25.00/hour? Isn't that 50,000.00/year? Your numbers only make my point that much stronger - that people in the trades aren't paid enough to support their families. I wish we could have an honest show of hands of who among us has made enough year in and year out for the missus to stay home and raise up the kids. I haven't. Then we all wonder why we can't attract eager bright young people into the trades. Of course, as others have clearly said, our earnings are restricted by what the market will bear.
*JimI am am not sure where you got the $40,000 for proverty level from a family of 5From http://www.census.gov/hhes/poverty/threshld/thresh00.htmlIt is $20,550 for a family of 5 with 3 of them children under 18.And http://stats.bls.gov/news.release/ocwage.t01.htm list mean wages for a number of occupations. Now this is for all areas and all skill levels. Many, many occupations pay less than $50,000 a year.
*The bottom line is KARMA.......What you put into your life and work you get back.........at least by sincere folks......
*jim... that's why i said $200 / day was hog heaven... it usually don't happen...as you can see from the stats... RI is $18.18..so... ..last 5 years or so.. i actually started making money......i actually had a bunch of years where i had no income.. legit.. i was living off cash flow...but not making a dime...this is a tough business.. but it only gets tougher if we don't treat it as a business.. so, i guess i agree with you.. most don't make a living wage.. certainly not a one income living wage..my disagreement with you is that it ain't just the trades... it's MOST people.. the mioddle class is usually 3 paychecks away from disaster....and a lot of people are by definition , bankrupt.. they are just too stubborn to pull the plug...anyways.. we have to realize that in order to pay ourselves and our help, we have to make a profit.. so our prices have to cover the cost of business and a profit..and tehy have to go up with inflation so we can adjust wages to keep the help we need...where the hell is sonny ?
*Hey Tex,Excuse me, but I think you've got wages confused with rates.For a man in business for himself, $25 an hour is a reasonable rate for what we do. If you were a guy with tools that was hiring himself out to the other guy by the hour, you'd have a hard time getting that at least in my part of the world. Not that I'm saying anyone on my crew wouldn't be worth $50 an hour, I just can't charge enough in my market to pay those kind of wages.As an employer of men, I have overhead that the independent doesn't usually concern himself with. There are state and federal employment taxes that contribute to the unemployment insurance pool, there are matching FICA taxes I pay on each employee, there is shop and tool overhead, lost time, sick days, accident insurance, hours and hours that the company spends estimating and bidding jobs that have to be compensated for......the overhead cost go on and on.To say that $25 an hour is a fair rate is fine if you're working for yourself by yourself. To say that's a fair wage for an employer can be unfair to those of us in markets that can't handle that.In my town, $16 to $20 is about all you can expect working for the other guy. If you want more than that, then you have to take superintendent responsiblites or go out on your own.Sad but true.Ed.
*Well, I know you'd have a tough time stretching 40k/yr here in Western Washington, Bill.
*Great stuff.....For a couple of years, I've seen a real change in the attitude of people when it comes to paying for what you get. IF your on top or outside of their house, if your skilled and unskilled workers have no real contact with the Owner, I find customers are cost product fixated.New roof, concrete flatwork, siding........If you have interaction, your in the house, everyone running into the Owner, customers tend to be cost service fixated. And there's a lot more money in service than there is with a product. And there's a real shortage of pleasant, educated, clean, dependable tradespeople availiable. And the ones you can hire, you not only have to pay well, you also have to give them the same kind of bonuses salemen are accustomed to receiving. A week-end get-away......a generous tool allowance, gift coupons for a good eatery.....a bonus at the end of the year.And respect.And the only way I know how get the jobs that pay for that kind of overhead is to stop selling my services as product.I know that this doesn't help someone like Steven H. too much, his customers surely want good service, but they really want a roof as cheaply as possible, and are willing to put up with a little mess for a day or two. (Before you take me to task, Steven, please know that I understand you provide great service, it's just that your the only roofer I know on this thread.)Most customers know a good product when they see one. And I think there are as many good producers out there as there are shoddy ones. So the difference I have to sell, is service as a value to the product. A value worth spending more money on. As far as attracting folks to trade Jim? ultimatly, money talks........unless we see the same kind of spiritual-seeking-through-labor we saw in the late 70's, early 80's.
*Here's one hand. If it wasn't for the wifes contribution and her (we pay half) health coverage, things here wouldn't be so rosey. Add to that the uncertainty of work around the corner, and an hourly job with an income you could budget for seems inviting. I like the freedom self-employment gives me, but I do believe I'll hafta be working till they lower the box into the hole. Ooops, the holes not paid for yet.
*jim,I love ya man ,but I think maybe you're living in the 1950's-----here's why.My household lives a average lifestyle of modest american means. We don't piss money away on cable tv,bowling,golf,lotto tickets etc.We live in a house that's average for our city,drive late model vehicles( bought new),usually rent a house at the beach for a week or so every summer,and are lucky enough to send our kids to "private schools". The parents of our kids classmates live very similar economic lives------they are policemen,firemen,nurses,teachers,accountants,computer specialists,salesmen,lab workers,lawyers----ordinary workers with ordinary lives. With VERY few exceptions both parents work at these jobs in order to maintain a middleclass lifestyle.Tradesmen are no different----and I don't think they should be any different.Now this is a very modest lifestyle----some of you might feel it laughably so. But it is lightyears beyond the experience of the economic strata our entry level workers come from.It is reasonably achievable for them----but prob. not as employees.As a self employed tradesmen or as a small employer they can accomplish in under 1000 hours of concentrated production a season what they will NEVER be able to accomplish as a wage earner in this trade.My challenge is to get across to the right guy's that they are really learning to operate their own businesses,NOT starting a long career as a wage earner.Unfortuneately I largely fail at that explanation.
*Mark Mcdonnell,You are absolutely correct in your assesment that roofing is ordinarily bought as a commodity.That is exactly why I make ZERO effort to contract roofing in the new construction market. 3 minutes or less with a calculator(years ago) showed me that at my production rates and labor rates I would be gauranteed to LOSE money on each and every new house I would be involved with.not only would I be losing money,but I would be seriously depleting a very limited resource---my spine and knees and elbows.The good news is that when you concentrate on owner occupied houses in long established neighborhoods you can sell in ways other than commodity pricing.The customer has many other concerns such as protecting the house,its contents,the garden and surroundings,financial stability of the contractor etc.You are now involved in protecting all the warm fuzzy feelings involved with the family home the customer has lived in for years------BINGO---KaCHIIIING----you are no longer selling a commodity.BTW this is also a concept I have a great deal of trouble getting across to employees and subs.The actual roof is only a small part of what the customer is paying for,so cover up those tatoos and don't ever let me catch you peeing behind the customers garage!
*"With VERY few exceptions both parents work at these jobs in order to maintain a middleclass lifestyle.Tradesmen are no different----and I don't think they should be any different."I don't think tradespeople should be any different either Stephen. It's just very confusing to me when I think about the truth in yours and Mike's words, that in most cases it takes two incomes to sustain a "middle class" life. Makes me wonder about what that means when the divorce rate is around 50%. Makes me think about the increasing stratification of wealth in our society and capitalism and our values and stuff like that. Makes me wonder about the direction we seem to be headed.
*Mike, I’m still around but have sought & entered another dimension. I’ll explain, and I'll chance incurring people's wrath with this long post. On the way to the Forum one day some of that elusive “common sense” hit me like a brick. Why have I been able to enjoy such loyal clients? Sure, it’s easy to talk about service, sincerity, good communications and what our gurus talk about. But there must be a more concise explanation or reason, something I wasn’t aware of. While reading a newbusiness book lately, there it was in black and white. One word: “advisor.” The authors went on to explain how a few professionals are able to expand their knowledge and evolve themselves from being just another “expert” to another, higher plain, called a “professional advisor.” These people enjoy very loyal clients and relationships that last for decades. They are constantly in demand and highly respected. WOW! Would I like to be one of them!As I was reading the book, I realized that obviously I’m not a professional advisor, yet I knew that there must be some similarities between the way I operate and relate with my clients that are similar to what the authors talked about. I decided to “mesh” the book’s philosophy with the contents of related books I’ve already read, to test a theory. My theory was that if I could refine my approach to make my “value” to my clients even more enhanced, get them to realize that, and become a true “advisor” to some of my clients, then I could reap those “additional” benefits besides being just an expert in my field of expertise. But then again, I’ll have to refine and redefine that/those areas. And continue to learn more about specifics in our industry.During the last couple of weeks I’ve been doing that, and also tactfully mentioned the position of advisor during casual conversations with key clients. Simultaneously, I raised my charged rate from $75 to $85 and over $100 per hour for three distinctly different projects for these clients. It turned out that the prices were accepted. I got paid for the initial investigative site visit, as well as the SCA fee in addition to my higher “advisory & working” charged rate. As you can imagine, I was flying high.Back to the books to learn even more. This is a new approach I intend to expand, refine and explore further, plus perhaps new markets may develop from this, or new “applications” to existing markets. I’m still getting my head together about this. Today I was hired on a consulting basis by another contractor to is getting an insurance project - about $60K. Needed some advice on the job and working with adjusters. Said he’d use me here and there during the project. I charged him $95 per hour - cheap, but a potential market I don’t want to blow by overcharging.Anyway, I think differently than most here and I think of myself differently than most of you think of yourselves. And I also think of my additional “potential” value to my clients, not just for a one time project. Those differences drive my creative business sense, my approach and in fact, the way I think. So, I'm always living, not just thinking, but living, out of the box - way out of the box - the box that most would call the "established practices" box. My first few paragraphs about being a professional advisor is an example of that out of the box thinking. This approach has, in the last several years, allowed me excellent margins, loyal clients, reduced aggravation associated with our industry, confidence and peace of mind. I'm incredibly happy and am having a ball, learning constantly and I continually attack established practices that I know, not think, but know - are contrary to our best interests.I came to this forum as an intruder, and was accepted as the guest I was. I've learned and discussed many issues with many of you here. But they were and still are the basic issues of our industry and their potential solutions are still addressed in the same thought processes. I like looking at them from a different angle and attempt solutions that are far more beneficial to myself, yet still satisfy the client’s need, often needs they don’t think of until I bring them up. And benificial on a “continuos” basis. I anat my name to be thought of automatically whenever a building question/problem arises.This is not a forum for one who virtually lives outside the proverbial box. Let’s face it. I’ve become too much of a maverick in our industry. I refuse to accept industry norms as though they are etched in stone, never to be challenged or changed. For many decades these "accepted" norms have produced a 90% plus industry failure rate, daily frustrations, free hours upon hours spent on potential projects that never materialize, nearly nonexistent public respect for what we know and do, and incomes half of what they should be. I repeat, half of what it should be.No more playing by archaic rules. I'll continue to make my own. I know some of my ideas are contrary to normal thinking, so why aggravate anyone. I don’t want to create conflicts between anyone here and myself. I'm just following a path different from the main industry. During these last several years I've come to realize that our established norms are out of date and more importantly, out of reality, and is the reason why I've been changing my approach. The public doesn’t realize what a deal they are getting when they hire one of us. I change that attitude, with my clients, anyway. Plus it’s time to educate my clients that I am far more than just another remodeler, service technician, or “expert” in my field of expertise. It’s working. They get an “advisor” and I get paid what I think I’m worth. Since they do pay me what I ask, apparently they agree, so we both win.Anyway, I can't contribute anything more here. It's all been discussed, and I leave the newbies and lurkers in the terrific hands of those with combined experience of hundreds of years of wisdom & experience. Thanks for the ride. I have just too many ideas and too much to do. Between charging for SCAs (son Tom just got $3K for one for a large project), developing myself as an “advisor,” expanding my relationship with past, existing and future clients to provide more for them on a “continuous” basis and more ($$$) for me, and a couple of other things I’m working on, I simply must find others as myself - those actually living in the different world of out of the box thinkers while also viewing “themselves” from a different perspective. No more “established practices.”I’m beginning to think that no idea is really new. They already exist somewhere, maybe just floating around in the air, but in different “bandwidths.” All we have to do is think in those different band widths to find them. Business wise, I've been evolving for years, but just casually. It’s time to ratchet it up a little more. Time’s short.I'll check in now and then to see if anything interesting has developed, but for now it's a continuation of following different drummers, or bandwidths, on different journeys.Sorry fellas, still haven’t learned how to be succinct. BTW, talking about $200/day, I work about 24-30 hours a week not counting going to look at jobs and typing up SCAs. That’s another 4-8 hours. Including those 4-8 hours and wasted time, of which I get paid for, I average about $568 per day. Trying to inch that up to closer to $600+ per day. Since I use the Proof Management System (which I love), I include “all” of my overhead in my labor instead of spreading it out on labor, subs and materials, and then add another 18% for net profit which gives me 15% net. That means the sub & material markup of 25% is excess profits. Son Tom puts all of his overhead in his labor, then marks up his labor subs and materials 30%, returning about a 23% net profit, unheard of in our industry. Again, he’s fed up with “established practices” as well, so he too, through them out and started his own rules. That allows him to pay himself and his staff well. They just hired a punch out man at $750 per week, plus truck, medical and other perks. Not bad for a punch out man. They work from 8 to 4:30 Monday to Friday.The statement: I can’t charge more; therefore I can’t pay more.” unfortunately, dies there. The question should be: “What do I have to do to charge more and be able to pay more?” Get out there and find the bandwidths. As the Mac Computer ad states” “Think different.”
*We are in Chicago, in the city proper, not the suburbs. The unions are heavy in commercial, residential development (loft conversions, high rises, etc) and some of the very, very high end ($350+/ sq ft) residential construction and remodeling. Like the bumper sticker says "Live better, Work union"We are non union (although many of my subs are union shops) and we pay $10/ hr for a 22 year old delivery driver, $15 to 20/ hr for drywallers and painters. Carpenters start at about 15 for apprentice skills (basic tools and knowledge, 20 to 25 for a middle of the road carpenter. The top guy I have makes $30/ hr. Mainly for high end trim, although when he frames, it is sometimes to beatiful to cover up :-)
*First, it's good to see you back Sonny. I was getting worried that we hadn't heard from you for a while. And apparently, you were saving up all those words and let them all go in just one post. Glad to see you're okay and around.SHG
*sonny , at this rate.. why don't you just buy Taunton ?
*Thanks SHG. Believe me, even if I had aother heart attack or stroke, my laptop, as long as I own it, would be in the hospital with me, and I'd be wireless online. I'm afraid I'm hooked on it, and especially for reasearch.Mike, even if I could afford to buy it, I'd screw it up. Taunton Press has, IMHO, one of the best run web sites, among the sharpest people on their staff and consulting contributors, magazine, bookstore, and makes more of a contribution to our industry than any other organization available. I wouldn't change so much as a toothpick of it. Besides, they are also probably tired of my meandering, ramblings and maverick attitude..Now, if I could just get my bookmarked URl to stop asking me for my password, then another screen asking me for my name and password again, before I can access the forum. Have tried re-registering, bookmarked again, and all to no avail. Any ideas?
*nope, i just click and it's open ... i have no idea what i did
*Sonny,That's exactly what I have to do, too! I try to just leave a Breaktime window open all the time, then I just hit Reload.Rich Beckman
*Rich, that means two windows, which slows down the other one slightly. It's just irritating. Emailed the sys. op. a week ago but got no reply.Guess I'm stuck for a few weeks until it "un-glitches" itself again.
*Rich; tenacity worked. I just registered as S. Lykos instead of Sonny Lykos and used a new password and it worked. Bookmarked this page and now when clicking on it in my toolbar, I get right into it - no name,email address or password needed. Try it.
*AndyI'm late getting in on this discussion. I've read all of the post and agree with the basic dollars expressed here for people starting out. My situation is different from others here though, so I'll explain how I do it for my guys.My work has to be better than anything similar out there. That's my mantra and my niche. Consequently anyone I hire to do any task is expected to do it better than they've ever done it before. The reward is self respect and $2 more an hour than the going rate. From day one, I tell them their wages are determined by the limits they set on themselves. Go for the brass ring and win a prize. I've never been limited by others in the trades because I only compete with me. I wish this didn't sound arrogant, I just believe as Ayn Rand did, that this is the only way man can be happy. As for the decay of the construction industry, who's going to lead us to a better day, butb me and you and us.Tabula RasaTerry
*I can fix all the problems. 1)When you get too old to do the work and want to relax, step back and run the business and let the young bucks do the work. 2)when you don't make enough, raise your prices and quit giving your work away. If you can't make it on what your taking home, how could the other guys? 3) take you ego and put it in a safety deposit box. Then go do what the customer wants, no matter how tasteless and cheapo it may be, but still charge what the market will bear. Vinyl windows, vinyl siding...hollow core interior masonite doors...you bet lady, we do it. If you only do high end , top quality, best of everything work then we applaud you. I don't, I'm a whore, if you have the money, then I have a product for you, what you have dictates what you'll get. 4)Pay your guys what they are worth and not a penny more. If they want to just show up..send them down the road to the next guy. If they are looking to put forth the effort for a career, reward it. You won't have them long but they will be a valuable sub at some point. Let the freaks work somewhere else. I understand piercings are a form of self expression, but if your face looks like you just fell into a tackle box, expect me to express myself by making fun of you and teasing the living shit out of you all day, everyday. If you put a ring or a chain in a place that I am tempted to yank, I'm gonna. If I see your underwear, I'll pull them over your head. This is work, wear work appropriate cloths. 5) If you're dead set on being a roofer or drywall hanger...expect your body to revolt sooner than later. Go to Sam's Club and buy advil by the case. 6)When the winter rolls in and you are tempted to take marginal work, stay home and work on your business plans to stay busy. Living off cash flow can be done, but if you invest some time and effort now instead of just keeping busy, you'll be further ahead.
*I have come to the point with others in the trades, that I freely tell my builders and subs that work around me that I charge no less than 100.00/hr plus materials for my services plus the "complete" charges that I incur for payroll. That is the minimum. There are many days that I make more. How many people that we work for would be able to make the medallion that I have posted in the "Photo Gallery"? They would not even know how to start. I have spent 22 years getting where I am. 100-135K a year for ten months work a year on average since 1995. I feel that I deserve this. Maybe the reason that so many do not achieve the monetary rewards for their services is because they feel that they are not deserving of it. One of the finest finish carpenters that I have come across works for one of my builders for 25/hr. He was complaining to me on Friday that "out there" on his own it was too competitive to make any more. I told him that I come in contact with other carpenters that seem to do very well and that they are unable to keep up with demand. He stated that next month he may go out on his own again and give it another go. We are not working on our own to make wages only. There has to be profits. Just preform an exceptionally good job and charge top scale. Builders will drop you for it and complain of your prices, but they always seem to come back and pay up. It is hard to hit a straight drive or hole that putt if one does not believe one can do it. GW
*amen , keith.. 'cept i don't pull on rings or underwear.....and same here , terry....it took me a long time to figure out that the other guys didn't have a clue as to what they should be charging... i thought i wasn't efficeint enough.. or we didn't work hard enough...finally after about the third time around the seminar circuit i found PROOF management system and it started me on the road to charging what it takes to make a profit.. too bad they don't teach economics and business 101 in high school...
*Jim, my wife worked for a few years after the kids got into high school. But I made my money as a contractor, not a carpenter.Come to think of it, I would have made more as a carpenter.....blue
*Charge what the market can bear. If you aren't losing a certain percentage of bids, you aren't selling, your giving. Find out what the market will bear. I've been framing (contracting) since 1980 and I still don't know the market. Last week I submitted a bid for 57k for a rough. I didn't get the job. Good. When I see that builder, I'll find out what he's paying. Start high enough so that when you bracket your offers, you still end up profitably. Pay your help what their worth, and what the market bears.My guys are at $20 on a payroll. There due for a raise, but oh well, the economy won't allow it. If I can make a little, I'll find a way to share the wealth without giving a raise.No raises till the market comes back. Cuts are in sight. I'm holding off.Sonny, sorry to see you go, but I understand. You tried to educate us. You've repeated your story too many times. We all need to search the archives and we'll read everything that we need to know about SCA's.If I go into remodeling (I won't), I'm going to use your SCA approach. Of I'll use that sales approach that the car sales guys uses (he wraps his hands around their throat and threatens them).Personally, I don't want to be an advisor and that's why I'll not be remodeling. Your services are valuable, especially if you know what you're talking about. Maybe you do, maybe you don't, but the clients still will appreciate your services. Not all of them though. But you aren't selling to those that don't want advisors...Interesting thread, as always.blue
*Greg,Nice floor, but nothing special. I'd put just about any of the guys on our crew on that for less than a grand.I wish I had the picture of the compas points we inlayed with cherry, ebony and maple into a white oak floor. Cost about $675 plus material. I posted it in Knots a while back.Man, if you're getting $100 an hour for that......my hat's off to you.Ed.
*Blue, for those who don't think charging for an SCA is possible "or" appropriate, and should be included in their overhead, here's some news. Remember Steve J.Merrette, the newbie to our industry? I talked to him on the phone yesterday. Guess what? This newcomer to our industry is charging, and getting paid for, SCAs. It reminds me of the story we've all heard about. Some guy did what everyone said couldn't be done. He did it apparently because no one told him it couldn't be done. Ditto with a local newbie here who started about a year ago, just about the time I started coaching him. This local guy also raised his prices form $25 per hour to $65. That was several months ago. Who knows what he's charging now? When are these guys gonna learn they shouldn't do what can't/shouldn't be done. Ditto for Greg Warren getting a minimum of $100 per hour.Go figure.BTW, what a matter with being an "advisor" in the framing industry? Being an expert in it, you're already 85% there.
*I've got a great customer base. I know what my competitors are charging. If I even considered charging out our crews at even $40 or $50 an hour I'd be laughed off the streets.So what about going in the back door? Let's say I estimate our cost at $50 an hour and give a firm bid. I know I'll be 45% higher than the next guy. So my bid for the work is $150,000.00 and the other guys are at $75,000.00 to $80,000.00. No matter how you look at it, I'll look foolish to the people compairing the bid numbers and soon we'll be out of work and the phone won't ring.Sure, I'm in favor of making the most out of my business, but steering it straight down the toilet by consistanly being the high bidder is not the way to do it.Perhaps where Greg lives, there are no other carpenters that can do a simple floor inlay. If that's the case, then he's cornered his market and can charge whatever the buyers are willing to pay. They have no other options. Good for Greg.I live in a city of over 1,000,000 people. The compitition for the work is dog eat dog. We are so close to Mexico that labor is almost free and skilled labor rates haven't changed much in the last 15 years. There ain't much I can do about that, and belive me, I'm great at thinking outside the box.When people say, dream the impossible dream, or not to let current standards keep you down or the sky is the limit, I'm all for that. But we do live an work in a competitive world and you have to work within the realities of that world.Yes, I could be a carpentry "advisor" to someone, but only if they don't know jack squat about building. In my town, there is no shortage of knowledge and due to no fault of my own, it comes cheap.$100 an hour? I know lawyers in this town that only charge $150 because the market is so saturated with lawyers.I want everyone involved with this business to make a lot of money and have fun doing it. But I say you can't just charge whatever you want and get away with it "for the long run". Notice I say "for the long run". Charging higher than market prices may get you some work, but it doesn't make good business sence "for the long run".That's my opinion.Ed.
*ed...you've got a tougher situation than some..but keep in mind.. when sonny says he charges $100 / hr. that's the back door number. the customer never sees that rate...also... there's specs and there's specs...no matter how sophisticated your GC is.. they can't compare your product to your competition.. they are not the same..so one of three things will always happen:you will do a better job than the competition and deliver more SERVICE..the competition will do a better job than you and deliver better service...or the GC won't care and will take the lower PRICE...your mission, should you choose to accept it.. is to find the GC's who care.. and convince them that you will deliver a better product and better SERVICE and that your price is worth it..here's the test...you can hire a guy who shows up on time , has his own tools, can read blueprints and can deliver what you want at $20 / hr.or you can hire teh guy who occasionaly shows up late.. needs a few tools, isn't sure what the prints mean.. but he's only getting $15/ hr..which one will you hire?now apply that to the GC's dilema (sic ?)...find the GC's who care...that's your mission.. and raise your rates so you can make more with less...
*Ed, My comment on the fabrication of my medallion was directed at the homeowners I work for, not the quality finish carpenters/flooring contractors. Obviously, that medallion was only a matter of time to put into place, not any unusual skill. But to the highly skilled homeowners that we work for; lawyers, doctors and businessmen, they do not see it that way. They want beauty and they are willing to pay for it. For an individual making 200/hr+, to pay 100/hr to recieve a work of art seems fair to them. They respect the skill that has been aquired by that craftsman through years in their trade, and many of them feel blessed that they are able to pay for it, with their way above average incomes. Remember, they also are one step away from the poor house on any one given day; a debilitating illness, car accident, unforseen business failure. Don't minimize your skills. It all seems so easy now. Think what it would have been like to build a medallion with a few months of construction experience. It all seems so easy now with all that you know. My experience came from applying my time at cultivating a business working with the very top 1% of wage earners, and there are many of them on the So. Cal coastline. I chose hardwood floor install/finish back in the late 70's, (it did not chose me), because I could see that everyone doing it was in his 60's and above. There was no one in between. The next age group of flooring contractors was in their 30's and there weren't many of us. The competition has remained low in the high end custom remodel and new construction markets.Since it costs a good 20K for the tools needed to do the job plus the cost of liability insurance, it keeps many out. GW
*EdMike Smith is so right. Start in this direction now, now, now. Define, refine and find the customer who will pay. They are out there, don't compete with anyone but yourself, it doesn't pay. Bring the best YOU, you can bring to the job, for the best GC you can find. Demand it of yourself.Terry
*“I know what my competitors are charging. If I even considered charging out our crews at even $40 or $50 an hour I'd be laughed off the streets.”Not true, Ed. If it were true then all you are worth is what your charging, which I doubt. You can “buy” jobs at “their” prices, or “sell” jobs at “your” prices. Change your opinion.I mentioned once before about when I first moved here and started “selling’ paint jobs for a friend who owned a painting and tile installation company. Back then, he told me builders were only paying about .85 per sq. ft. You would have thought I would have been laughed off the street when I started selling builders painting jobs at $1.05 per Sq. Ft. That was a 23% increase. Let that sink in - TWENTY THREE PERCENT!Almost as long as we’ve been on this planet, people have “gladly” paid for the top of the line, in their opinion.. Filets, Mercedes, million dollar homes, $1000 suits, $500 does, the list goes on. And the people that sell them, “sell” them. And the people who “buy” them want to be “sold” on them.Sell! Don’t Buy!Based upon your contention, since my competitors are charging $35 to $45 per hour, I should have been laughed off the streets. Who among us “doesn’t” work in a competitive world? Even the word “competition” only dictates that “you” must define the “value” you represent. Your competitors don’t - you do. And I too, have lawyers in my areas who charge $150. In fact, Tom’s and mine charges under $100, and I told him to raise his fees.Long run? The long run, at your prices is how you make money, but you have to “believe” you can get it before you “will” get it. You’re digging your own hole deeper every day with that attitude.I’m not being sarcastic, but it’s true: “Successful people form the habit of doing the things failures don’t want to do.” Think about it. Please, don’t be one of those “It can’t be done” type of people. Self sabotage is too easy. And please, do not infer to the newbies here that they cannot do what “you” think they cannot do. They can do anything they put their mind too.
*hmmm.. not to rub salt into a sore wound...but the front page of the Sunday paper has an article about RI lawyers...says there were 676 in 1970 , now there are more than 5200.. the lead is about a lawyer who paid $70K for her law degree.. took the bar exam 3 times..she passed, but has never worked as a lawyer...she's been a bartender for 12 years.. point is.. she couldn't get a job.. not because she was overpriced.. hell , she'd start at $30K but couldn't get an offer....that's $15/hr.. .. i won't bat an eye paying a lawyer $150 /hr... and the ones who charge $300 don't get laughed out of the office either...if you are in a recesssion, you might have a different strategy... but in normal business, you have to optimize your bottom line
*Ed, you need to re-evaluate yourself. First, examine your attitude about rates. Everything is negative. You point out competition. You rationalize your inability to raise rates, and therefore you don't.Try this. If you are charging $35.00 per hour, send out a rate increase of 11.93% to all your clients. Will they all drop you because of this rate increase? Probably not. Send one out for a 100% increase and you might be unemployed. Somewhere in between a zero increase and a large increase is what is called a nuisance increase. Nobody drops a competent subcontractor over a nuisance rate increase. If you had been issuing these nuisance increases over the years, you'd be somewhat higher than you are now.This idea isn't really thinking out of the box. It's just normal business practice.blue
*"... but in normal business, you have to optimize your bottom line" yeah, if that's why you're in business, to optimize earnings.
*Jim, if you're not in business, then you have a very expensive hobby. You make it sound as though if you love what you do for a living, it's somehow disloyal, even treason to even attempt to "optimize" your business.Unbelievable!On a different forum, someone accused me, I assume me, that is wrong to think in terms of "business" and one should only, or have as his/her priority, to improve his or her "profession" first, possibly, "only." As though anyone could optimize his/her business WITHOUT first assuring that what he/she is selling is a true professional, and constantly learning and improving. Do you want to be the best you can, just to pat yourself on the back? I do too, but as long as I'm creating someting of tremendous value to the consumer, am I being a moron to then let them know of this tremendous value, and, "gulp", get paid for it too. Or should I continue to "devalue" what I do, what I provide, how I service, how I accomodate, what I've learned and continue to learn - in short - how I've gone beyond even "selling" to "serving'" my people?I love what I do for a living. Optimizing my "business", that business (ala The E-Myth) that uses the skills within my "profession" and "professionalism", is what allows me to help others with both time and money, help in my community, and so forth, while making a very nice living. I' m supposed to feel guilty about that?Guess we're back to that philosophy of "profits" being a bad word.Again, unbelievable!
*Now hold on there, Sonny. I didn't say, and never have said, anything close to "...that philosophy of "profits" being a bad word." I didn't say anything about how you, or anyone else, should, or shouldn't run their buisness. Why the heck are you so quick to fly off the handle when someone voices an opinion even a little bit different than yours?We're all different, Sonny. And it's okay for different folks to have different priorities in their lives, and their businesses. I don't begrudge you that right. If your driving force is maximizing profits, then I agree with what Mike said about making the most you can, while you can. What's the problem?
*Yesterday I was called to look at a termite damage job. The sill plates were demolished and the girders holding the floor joists up weren't in the best shape either. The house was exactly a hundred years old. North shore of Long Island in NY. Not an affluent hood but an old one. The house was in the family for two generations and the current owner was about my age (50). The house was a f#%ing wreck inside but they WERE NOT GONNA MOVE! Even if they were they'd have to fix what was holding the house up. When I walked down the rickety cellar steps I peered off to my right and wanted to walk right back up....echhhhhh. Kept going with the homeowner and his belly hangin' wayyyyyyy over his belt and a pastrami sandwhich in one hand and a Miller Lite (LOLOLOL) in the other. He showed me the gig and left me to myself and the cobwebs. I was cringinggggggg. I walked into a far corner of the bowels of this basement which had a dirt floor in the far rear beyond the foundation under a back porch..and saw footprints of "work boots". Hmmmm....I thought. Walked back out and saw zillions of wires and pipes and and and attached to the two 25' girders atop the lolly columns. Atop that was rusted beer cans rusted ol' bolts, rags, all kinda shit. The sill plates were loaded with more of the same and I could barely walk over all their accumulated crap. OK, I was outta there. As I started to walk I saw some real interesting joints the builder that originally put this house together with probably agonized obver for no money.... walked back into the rear of the basement and saw more of the same work. I have a hard time walking away from this kinda thing. I felt for the guy that worked with dedication and loyalty to his craft. I spent about an hour down there and figured it all out. Walked back up and spoke to the wife and husband. Told them I loved the work the builder did and what a shame the condition this "aluminum sided" colonial was in from the termites (neglect). I went on and on about what a well constructed house it was.blah blah blah. Said I'd get back to them in a day or two. Got in my van and just before I booked the pastrami eating lite Miller man came runnin' out. Asked me to come back to see about givin' him a price on finishing their new kitchen that Home Depot was giving them a hard time finishing.....Subs rather....duh. What a horror. No biggie....small stuff that they where screwing these people over with.DUH! We spoke for a bit more and I was on my way. Didnt really mind hangin' out this one time and chatting. Kinda intrigued me. Got back to my office and figured out their basement job in about twenty minutes or less. Came to a realllllll lot. Lot more then I figure they wanna pay but guess what? If anyones gonna do it "I WILL". Its me they'll buy, NOT the job. I sold myself. I was sincere, 25+ years of experiance and energetic about what I love. If I don't get it...no biggie...theres more where that came from, but I figure, if I start out bidding myself which is WORSE then bidding against my compition then all I'm doing is setting myself up for future failure with them and their neighbors. I'm by no means raking em' over the coals. What I'm doing is selling a craftsman that is INTO his work and gonna give them 200% and then some....Their loss is...............a fallen house, no doubt....Nice kitchen! LOL
*PS....Sonny glad to see youre ok
*".........but in normal business, you have to optimize your bottom line" yeah, if that's why you're in business, to optimize earnings."Jim, I live in a "No Spin zone." Your comment above indicates what I said above. You have a hobby from which you try to make a living. However, it's still not a "business", but only a "hobby." The #1 purpose of a business in to generate profits, and over and above the costs of operating said business. Your "wages" is one of the operating costs, not profit. Optimizine earnings is not a win/lose situation. In fact, it's the opposite. It's a win/win/win/win/win situation. A win for your clients,. A win for yourself. A win for your staff. A win for your business associates such as subs and vendors. It's a win for yor community and the rest who benefit from "optimizing" your unique expertise as a business person. Your thinking in terms of a trades mindset instead of a business mindset.And I"ve said before: There is nothing wrong with that. Be a self-employed tradesman, which is what you really are; if that makes you happy. You created a "job" for yourself, like Gerber says. But don't delude yourself into thinking you own a business. Even those with "practices" constantly try to optimize their "businesses." Among other things, "optimizing" means eliminating waste. It also means optimizing the market, to your advantage. Or do you prefer to operate under disadvantages and let opportunities go by?Based upon your philosophy, last year I should have taken an offer to do punch out work for a builder at $30 per hour, benefits, truck - the whole works, and at 8-5 Monday thru Friday. Bet I could get $40 today. No grief; no hours looking at jobs; no hours calulating jobs, no hours typing up Proposals; - just a straight work week and paid for each hour. And like I said, I bet I could cal lthat guy and get $40 today - $1600 per week.How many small contractors are getting $1600 per week for a 40 hour work week with no grief?The goal is mazimizing profits. That allows you more money, and for less time spent, less grief, etc - all of the short falls business ownership. But it's still called "optimizing" the bottom line. And if that's not a goal of yours, then you have a hobby. Hobbies don't generate profits - only "wages." And the reason is that your "wages" (not profits) is only , yes, only, one more of the many "costs" of doing business.Business 101. Now maybe I've it a sore spot, but then again, I live in the No Spin Zone.
*"Based upon your philosophy,..." Would you please refer me to where I stated my philosophy?
*Did I misinterpret: ".....yeah, if that's why you're in business, to optimize earnings. ", as if you agreed?Maybe I mistakingly assumed that your comment meant you "disagreed."If so, I respectfully apologize to you for my rantings.
*Sonny,I must admit I like your positive attitude, but I find it a bit on the rose colored glasses side.If you called that guy and got the job for $40, could you get it for $50? What about $60? Don't you think there is a limit as to how much he would pay?What happens when you push that point to the limit? What happens when they say "no thanks". Do you then say "well, OK, I'll do it for the $40? Doesn't that seem a bit unprofessional? Do you just go home, lick you wounds and try to find another client? Will you push the limit on the new client at the risk of them also saying "take a hike"? Do you gamble the wages of the men who depend on you for employment on "optimizing profits"?There has to be some rational thinking here. Sure, the sky is the limit, but the crash to the ground is long and hard. It is possible to price yourself (maybe not you personally......after all, you are an "advisor" now) right out of the market. I've seen it happen too many times.I believe in taking chances. I wouldn't have started this business I now own with the $100 I had at the time if I didn't believe in myself. It was a go for broke gamble and I won. Some don't. I didn't do it by charging the max. I did it with reasonable pricing within existing market values and offering above and beyond service at that price. I'm still doing that with great success.I could probably raise my rates a few bucks but at what cost? Will the work slow down to where I have to lay 5 family men off? Will the builders only call me for "special projects" and hire someone cheaper for the more mundane aspects of our business? Or maybe I could just rake in more cash and pay the men more. It's a gamble, and a gamble with the incomes of people who I depend on and who depend on me. I'm not comfortable risking someone else's future income. But by the same token, I'm not doing them any favor by holding them back from possibly making more wages. I will raise our rates again someday soon. And hopfully by maybe cutting some aspect of overhead, I will be able to directly channel all that increase to the men who do the work. Time will tell.Some may call me conservative, some may call me parinoid. Most just call me when they want real carpenters at a reasonable market rate.Ed.
*or some may just call you ed.or a businessman...tough world out there ed.... keep up the good work.... and keep pushing the envelope
*Ed, I'm very conservative. And not belng a moron or "flighty", I've never raised my rates without "sounding" out the market so to speak. The last person who asked, or questoied my $75 /hr price was a few week ago. Being prepared, frm my DayTimer in my back pocket, I pulled out two invoices from last year. One from a mobile welder who charged me $75 per hour, and another from Action Aotomatic Door who charged me a $40 trip charge and 1/2 hour in labor at $80/hr. I asked this client: This is reality. Now please, you tell me. If these two trades companies are charging what they do - having only to know one trade - that's one trade, what shoud I charge you, since I'll be providing three trades? He smiled and paid my bill. Incidently, this same person called my several weeks later for more work.I am arrogant in one aspect. I don't take my local competition in my decision making. Doing so would, in effect, make me prisoner to their service, their company operational philosophy, and their prices, and I'd stil be charging $45 per hour.I guess where I operate differently than most is that most say: I want "A". Then they proceed to obtain "A", based upon local "established practices". I say: I want "B" (higher wage rate), and while I'm at it, "C" too (getting paid for Proposals) and maybe even "D" (getting paid for site evaluation travel time). Now that I know what I want (goals), I work toward getting them. That "working" toward getting them is researching my market and developoing a viable plan to obtain B,C & D.Meanwhile, after selling those paint jobs I mentioned earlier, at $1.05 per sq. ft., I started selling them at $1.15 per sq. ft., then at $1.25 per sq. ft. before I finally quit because my license came in the mail. That represented a 47% increase over what my boss was getting and at a price he said I counld not sell. As for now, I still can handle the work I'm getting, and determined not to hire an employee. Now I like working alone again.I'm not a marketing guru, nor a sales genious. Hell, I'm not even anywhere as good a trademan as most of you guys are. But I do know what I am worth, what I deserve and how to get it - and still have such happy clients that they still call me over and over and over. So apparently these clients must still think that even at my prices, I still represent a better "value" than my competitors - at half my price.I guess that's the key isn't it? Might I also note that we are still supposed to be in a recession. Meanwhile, son Tom is booked for months, still getting calls, and with rates of $125/hour and netting 18% net profit."Tom, I hear you're expensive - but worth it." One more $250K job signed on the dotted line.These people probably say the same thing about their Cadillacs, Lincolns, Jags, BMWs and Mercedes. Regardless if they are middle class, wealthy or filthy rich. They all still want what they buy to be worth it - to represent value. Make it worth it to them!
*Ed, Where you and I differ is that I do not take my employees situation into account in regards to my business. Whether that's one employee or five working for me, if they get in the way of profits, I cut them loose. You must be happy where you are at in income, because if I was not making the kind of money I feel I deserve I would cut someone in a New York minute. I stay very small as a company and I don't have to take every job that calls to line the pockets of my employees at my expense. It may sound cold but business is a cold fish. Successful ones are. We, as contractors are no different in philosophy than General Electric or Cisco. GW
*Sonny,In Dallas, painters rates are about 20% higher than carpentry rates.......go figure. They'd be at home painting their toenails if us carpenters didn't put up some raw wood. If "Son Tom" is getting $125, that's great. More power to him and I wish for his continued success.Greg,My employees ARE my business. And no disrespect intended, but a master carpenter has to be able to lay wood floors too. How many floor guys do you know who can cut a roof?Perhaps our employees are a bit less disposable.Ed.
*Ed, I agree with you in regards to how many carpenters can install flooring. That is the easy part to some degree. But I would question if even one of your guys could sand, apply a very dark stain and polyurethane to a finish with no scratches in the floor anywhere, a perfectly even stain across the floor, and no drips, lap marks or puddles in the poly coat. That is where it all is in the business of floor contracting. Without that skill, one cannot stay busy in unfinished flooring. At least not in California. So there... Now jack up your rates or the union boys are gonna have to pay you a visit. GW
*Fellas, I agree with Jim, Ed, "and' Greg.Many yers ago I read a business book, can't think of the authors name now, but he said: "It's a cold hard fact of business life that there are no rewards for effort, just results." That stuck wiht me.For that reason, dead weight, ala Greg, must be cut. You owe it to that dead weight, to your self, your clients, your other staff, and your bottom line.It's also a fact of life that supply and demand rules an any economy and any industry. Make yourself in deman. In doing so, you will bare the stress, the scars, the time, and for that reason alone, yo are entilted to bet tbe best return -that you can optimize. You and your staff will have deserved it.Established practices are not to be diminished. For the newbie, or the contractor to self employed tradesman, who runs a less than desireable operation, those established practices are the foundation needed for a jumping point from whiich to excel - financially. Established practices are not a place to die in.I just don't want the lurkers and newbies here to think that there are limits to where they can go, what they can do, who they can help and what they can make. Any limits that may exist are self-imposed.The evolutions that have occured in virtually every other inustry are astonding. And they are still evolving. Do not get your feet stuck in history.Today I met a man, no, a true entrepreneur, in Greg, who "routinely" get's $100 per hour. Obviously, he's also an innovator. Next year I will meet more like him, and even more who are making $125 per hour. Our lives are the results of our choices. Never, ever, let anyone tell you: "You can't........................" Who really wants to "just live?" That's to mundane, and really never tests one's skills or possibilities. And by skills, I mean "all" of your skills. Doesn't that word "possibility" just grab you. I love it. I wonder if I can....................?Like the Olympic athlete who also loves what s/he does for a living. S/he still goes the gold! Screw the competition. They don't exist, and furthermore, they definitely do not set "my" standards. I set my own. Raise your own bar. Then raise it again, then again.
*Sonny, I really enjoy reading your posts. They remind me of my dad. He has spent most of his career taking over failing manufacturing companies as CEO or president and turning them around. Once they are profitable again he moves on. The funny thing is that how he does it really isn't that hard once you think about it, he does three things mainly:1) he raises the prices of all products so that they are making the desired profit. Since he believes that they offer to their customers not just product but service in the way of expert knowledge, always delivering a quality product and always delivering it when they say they will he figures the customer must pay a premium. And they do. He his very customer orientated.2) he invests in his employees by actually spending money on them through training. He makes sure that everyone is continually being educated and learning more about their job, industry etc... He gets the employees actively involved in the process and makes them responsible for the outcome. 3) Hires only the best in the business and pays them top wages. He has this program called "2 for 3" He finds the 2 best employees in the industry and then uses them to replace 3 mediocre employees and pays the 2 the total salary of the 3. Basically he just spends the money to support the best people in the industry and then sells his services to the costumer and then adjusts his product prices to make a profit. He is also very big on developing customer relationships and never sees his product prices as a selling point in his business. Usually his prices are the highest out there.
*I think sonny actually believes that the number one goal of any business is to generate profits beyond the costs of producing them.He believes this because it is his goal----but it isn't really the number one goal of every business.Ed has clearly and eloquently( and perhaps unknowingly) illustrated what I think is HIS number one goal.I would congratulate him----our world needs more men like him.I believe Jim has different goals for himself and he seems equally successfull in attaining his goals.As for me" generating profits is definitely not number 1 on my list.I would rate it no higher than number 3 and probably closer to about 5or6.This is not to say that it still isn't an important goal----but it isn't number 1.sometimes generating profits is really just a by-product of reaching other goals.Once again Ed,I congratulate you.
*Stephen,I am humbled by your kind words. I do the best I can with the little I have, and hopfully at the end of the day I've done the right thing.Regards,Ed.
*Hey Greg,Yes sir, you are right on the head there.Sure, we can lay the floor, but that's as far as we would ever dare take it. What you guys do is an art in my opinion. It takes a man with a good feel for his machine and an eye for color to be a successful floor guy. Did I mention a strong back? Bending over all day laying strip floor would kill me.I do admire your trade and I hope that I haven't offended you. Hat's Off,Ed.
*Go get "em Sonny!I don't want to gang up on Ed, but your discussion about his attitude is right on. i Napolean Hill in his book i Think and Grow Rich,explain to us that we will earn what we think we will. If we set our bar low, we are sure to attain that. This discussion fits in very well with that book. I recommend it to anyone that is having a hard time in their business. In fact, after reading it, I realized that the reason that I've not soared very high in my Carpentry Contracting business over the years is because of me, and my attitude. I really didn't want to get rich doing it. I sabotaged my own business!Not any more. I've already devised several ways to salvage my Carpentry business, but I'm still not committed to staying in it. I'm simply more interested in other areas of my life and career now. If I decide to put forth the effort however, into the carpentry, I know for sure I will be able to increase my business many times over even in these recessionary times. blue
*That's OK......You can gang up on me. I can afford it.And I didn't spend a dime on books.Ed.
*Ed, spend some of that newspaper delivery boy money that you've saved since you were a kid!You can get a new copy of i Think and Grow Rich for $5.99 at Amazon.com. You can even get better prices buying a used copy!That book is the best book that I've ever invested in. I liked the i Rich Dad series but i Think and Grow Rich really inspired me. I had the luxury of listening to an audio version of the book. I listened to it twice and then immediatly went on a tear to re-organize my life, my business and especially my attitude. What have I done different? The main thing is that I realized that I've pissed away a fortune in good, wait...I mean b GREATideas. But Napoliean Hill made me realize that I'm not too late. So I started dreaming again. I literally have dreamed up a much needed service/business that is directly related to my career in the building business. In the past, I would have let it slide. Not now. I've already written up the first stage of a contract and have made the appointment to offer it up to the person I have chosen to become the first step in a very, very, very large endeavor. I'm pumped beyond belief and everyone that I've trusted this new endeavor with has been amazed at the enormity of the need, the simplicity of the endeavor, the simplicity of the sale, and the awesome potential for this product/service. It is needed/wanted in all fifty states. It is the perfect product at exactly the perfect time in our country/world's history.Thank you Napolean Hill. The funny thing is that anyone of you in this business could easily realize how simple of an idea and how desperately needed this idea is. Am I going to follow through? Yes. I will not fail. Even if someone else figures out what I'm doing and starts it first, there will be plenty of room for hundreds-thousands more. I just intend to put together a perfect plan and get a huge financial jump on it. And Ed, I'm not thinking $100 per hour stuff. Maybe more like $100 per minute....per second...I refuse to limit myself.Thank you Napolean.blue
*Sonny, I'm flying down to Jupiter, Florida this thursday thru sunday. I've got a few items on my agenda. I'm going to drop in on a real estate investor in Vera Beach (he posts on an investor site). I've got 1/2 a day of work. I might investigae a possible major remodeling project that was offered to me after the tourist season ends. If possible, I'd like to check out Naples. I'm not sure I will be able to fit it in, but it's possible. My email is [email protected] if you don't mind emailing me a phone number. blue
*Great! Will do. And good for you. It's fun thinking out of the box, eh?"I refuse to limit myself." I love that kind of thinking.BTW, it's about 2.5 hours from Jupiter to Naples. Would love to see ya. Will take off till you have to leave and will give you a tour and lunch/dinner - you know, Southern hospitality style.
*hey, you guys are starting to sound like i'm going to be missing something...i won't stand for it....first i drove to ohio... then cape bretton.... you gonna make me show up in naples now ?blue ,, can i get the RI franchise ?
*Mike, when you're ready for a map, let me know.Time to visit the south - "Southland" and visit us displaced Yankees.
*Mike, you would be first on my list for a "franchise". Actually, this isn't a franchise type thing but I'll certainly try to figure a way to contain it. Actually, it isn't containable. It's not patentable. The only thing I might be able to do is copyright the name, which is still available.Oh yeah, I'm heading over the nominate you for something in that many of the year, sexist award thing.blue
*Sonny, Blue, I think one idea that you keep going past. I eluded to this in my post about real estate. It is Eds business. And there are many ways to run a business and many successful ways to run a business. Just because he chooses not to think "outside the box" does not make him wrong. He has simply chosen a different route. Blue, I am really pleased at your level of enthusiasm for your change in business practices and am sorry you feel as though you failed or at least left something on the table in the past. But Ed apperently doesn't feel that way. And while I appreciate Sonnys new ideas and feel reading them helps me stretch my thoughts, I appreciate Eds way of thinking also. Feal free to think the way you would like, but allow others the same right without jumping in and pounding their view point into the ground. The cold reality is you don't know really how financially successful Ed has been. He may be a lot further along than you are thinking and has no reason to change! Just my thought. DanT
*I think blues business was prob. quite successfull for years----successfull in that it did a good job of meeting his goals at that time.judging from his posts the last few months-----his goals have now changed somewhat---his focus is different.With different goals and a different focus it is only logical that his business take on a new shape.That doesn't mean that what he did in the past was wrong---just that it won't help him meet his CURRENT goals.My goals when I started at 25 or so were quite a bit different than they are now at 39.10 years from now my goals will be quite different still.BTW, right now I am more interested in building net worth than profit---and in my personal situation profits could,to a degree, adversely effect my ability to build net worth.Remember to a large degree profit can be taxable----net worth not so taxable
*Ed, I could never,EVER do what you do. The responsibilities of employing so many would slowly strangle me and in fact would adversley affect me reaching my number 2 goal( spending gargantuan amounts of free time with my wife and 2 sons)If I was ever an employee again I would prefer an employer to have some of your traits.( Of course I could never work for a Texan---but that is a whole'nother story---ain't it?)
*Hey Steve,Now, all Texans arn't that bad......well, maybe.Ed.
*Hey blue,Thanks for the advise on the book "Think and Grow Rich".However, I have thought about it and I am rich so what's the point?Ed.
*Ed, the point of the book is not necessarily to get rich in cash. You might prefer to be rich in time. You might prefer to operate just as you are. You make the decision.Stephen correctly pegged me as doing my business in a manner that suited me. I knew when I was doing my business, that I was the only one holding me back. Like Stephen, I didn't want 25 employees. In fact, I found out that over 7 employees was counterproductive for me. It took me away from carpentry and made me more of a manager...constantly dealing with things, instead of actually building things. I chose not to grow, knowing full well that my income was limited because of my choice. I did manage to find time to spend with my family. For instance, I probably only averaged 1200 hours per year while my kids were in high school. I went to every game they played in (soccer). I went to every college game. Basically, I've screwed off my entire career. I cram when I have to and rest the other times. i Think and Grow Rich taught me that I could have been accumulating great monetary rewards, for my ideas, while working less. If I had known that I could do that, I probably would have done that. Since I don't really worship money, nor really care if I have any, I would have been quite content earning large sums and then giving it away, or using it in a way that would benefit my good employees. I would love to have all of them earning 100k and working only 3/4 of the year.I realized that I've failed my employees by not using my ideas to the max. My own personal comfort level held my guys back. I wonder now how many guys I let down. I owe it to them, to assist them to attain as much skill as they can, then charge my builders the max for them, then return it to them in wages and benefits. I mentioned the book because it inspired me to re-look at myself in a way that I forgot how to. I'd forgotten how to dream big and let all of life's challenges stop me from attaining bigger and better things. I've stepped out of my comfort zone. The book contains a secret, which is easily learned, and I'm thrilled that I'm getting a second chance. You may not need that second chance...but I do.blue
*blue,Best of luck to you.Ed.
*Blue,The market in Jupiter is hot. Several of my clients have their winter homes there and complain about being able to get qualified builders there. Lots willing to swing a hammer and take their money (along with anything else that's not tied down). But no one willing to provide the top end service they are looking for.Sonny,I want to thank you for giving us all this free advise that is now valued at 110 dollars per hour. In the last two years, I have read napolean Hill and you, among others in the same class and have increased my earnings by more than thirty percent, going up. The best part is the increase in confidence and enjoymemnt of my work and my life.Ed,It CAN get better, no matter how good it is. Just like Sex, I still look forward to it.Everyone - Abuilder I did work for over twenty years ago introduced me to a concept that still sticks with me. "It is IMMORAL for you to charge less than the maximum you can get" The reasoning goes like this - If you charge too little, that makes you a bargain. So more and more people will buy you. Your overhead goes up and your percentage of profit goes down. You are overworked and taking on more risks and liabilities for less reward. Maybe the quality of your product suffers. Eventually, you are burned out and the straw that breaks the camels back hits you so hard that you quit, and go to doing something else.And your customers are stuck with buying a second rate product from your competition for the same price so you've screwed them by not charging enough to be able to stay in business and enjoy doing it.It took awhile to sink in but it makes sense when you look at the bigger picture.
*amen, piffen....it is the moral responsibility of good builders to stay in business until they drop in the traces...and to do that they have to make a profit.....
*...I spend about 2 hrs on the net a day......Where do youse guys find the time??? to read all these threads with what went on in Cooks Talk???......Have a company in Canada... of $1000.00 in , $365 after all was said and done......Now working as individual......better......n...
*piffin,Yes, it CAN get bigger, but do I really want it to?That's the question. We're doing a great business as subs. Sure, I could go out and get a loan and open a mill and maybe GC a few jobs, buy company trucks with our name on the side and go into serious debt.......but I don't want to. My company grows every year without even trying. I don't think it would be as much fun if it got too big too fast.Ed.
*Ed,I said better, not bigger. It must've been the sexual comparisson that confused you. I've made a selective choice this year to get smaller. That let's me be more selective with who I work for and under what circumstances. I raised rates as well and still get new customers based on referal. I know from reading your posts that you've got a great customer base and doing business in a way that you enjoy. The point is that you can increase your percieved value in your customers mind with a little carefull salesmanship while on the job and increase your rates. The only thing that changes is the amt of money you're making. Or make the same money and work less.
*Steve: I like your last sentence. That is how I feel exactly about a good presentation, good work, and how they run off and tell their friends- creating even more business.I also get e-mails about how I could charge so much. What gets me is I have NEVER stated what I charge except I make a decent living. Now a decent living to some would be $12/ hour. To others $60/hour would be cheap. Its all relative to what your needs are. I will always keep those numbers to myself.
*piffin,Right on the head.......My goal.......Less men, selling the higher calibre of work we've been doing for years for more.Someday soon I hope.Wish me luck,Ed.
*You're already on the right road. Enjoy the ride, keep your eyes on the road, and watch out for the highwaymen.
*10-4 good buddyEd.
*
I'm interested to know what everyone else pays their help. From helper/apprentices to fine craftsman. Also how long you all give for lunch and breaks and do you pay for the lunchbreak. I've heard such varying differences.