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As a full-time student majoring in Construction Engineering Technology, I am interested in knowing what contractors look for in possible employees. My first goal after graduating from school is to work as a project manager or in a similar position. Besides experience, what other qualifications would you find necessary in an employee to manage your projects?
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Replies
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A CET does not make a PM.
Experience is the best road to hoe if you want to be a good PM.
In 10 years or more, who knows, you might be worth hiring.
Gabe
*Big boobs...definitly...big boobs.
*You only need 5 days experience with big boobs to qualify and the 5 days are optional.Gabe
*Talking with a retired home-builder today. In his words, "you can't tell someone how to do something unless you know how to do it yourself".
*I'm more of a fanny man myself........
*Thanks for your input Mr. Martel. After completing my degree, I will have a good knowleadge of many different aspects of the construction business. I would think that my studies would cut those 10 years down to 5. Besides PM, what kind of possibilities would you see in a fluent spanish speaking CET graduate? I would appreciate your response.
*Tob managemy projects??!!I want to see experience. And a portfolio.Rich Beckman
*Mike,I'll take the liberty of adjusting that quote a little. " You can't ask someone in the trade to do anything unless they know you've done it yourself".GabeI always like these posts by want ta be leaders who have to ask how to lead.
*Let me correct a few things before you get the wrong idea.Upon graduation, you will NOT have a good knowledge of any aspect of the construction business. You will have a reasonable foundation for knowledge and nothing else.Your studies will not cut 10 years down to 5. Chances are that it will require an additional 5 years to unlearn some of what your teachers told you construction was all about.Besides not being qualified to be a PM, you might consider being a labor on a construction site. When you do this, do NOT tell anyone about your CET, you'll be enough of a onsite joke without making it worse. The first step in commercial construction is staying alive and not killing your fellow workers.Construction is not something that's studied under a microscope, it's learned from the inside.Speaking Spanish is not a prerequisite to construction 101.Gabe
*O.K. Pete.......Here's what I want to see.....what did you do in your time off?What concrete company did you labor for 2 summers ago?What foundation contractor did you haul (by hand) basement forms for 3 summers ago?What framing outfit were you a helper for last summer?Degrees......hey, I impressed! You better have some references from those in the trades or your just a paper tiger.Tradesmen have an uncanny sense of smell and we love to eat paper tigers for lunch.Better eat your Wheaties...................
*Gabe, I dont think there is anything wrong with asking how to lead. Maybe if you had asked someone, it wouldn't have taken you 10 years. And to be honest, just from your 3 messages, I can tell that you're not a very good leader yourself. You sound like a man that is frustrated with himself and can't bear the thought of someone achieving what it took you a decade to do in less time. Maybe you're right Gabe, but your last message just disqualified anything else you said, as far as I am concerned
*C'mon Gabe, he don't have to tell em', hell they'll smell him. By the way he walks, talks, eats.....he'll be in an upside down porta-potty in the first few hours. The only way they have to survive is be in charge from the get go. Then cost overuns, down time and a generally F-ed up job get them canned. Give the guy a break, and tell him the truth...."It's a jungle out there, and YOU are the bottom of the food chain, not NEAR the bottom, you ARE the bottom"
*Gabe,Pete sounds like a expert .........
*Now Mr. McDonnell is giving me information I can use.I guess you're telling it's time to get my hands dirty. Thanks for the response Mark.
*A future expert, hopefully
*Pete, dude...you are sooo done...nice knowin' ya.......technology...sounds like one of those waste your time ,hand over your cash 2 year kinda deals.....they saw you comin'. Toast.
*Remember, if your gonna get your hands dirty, start at the bottom.
*Pete, These guys are giving you a hard time. About 1/100 of what you will see on a job. But they do know the trades. And you better listen to Gabe. He knows his concrete, and all the rest of it too. When I see a new super on the job, esp if he drops his degree on me my spinchter tightens up. I know I'm in for a crappy job and I will probably loose money because of this FNG. But.... if you want to help me ask me how I want the job when I show up. We are a team. You need to help me make money. In return I will help your job come in on time, on budget. It's all about the Benjamins. Never forget that. Think Benjamins all the time. But don't take it out of the trades hide when you screw up. Take the responsibility and own up to it. Simple. But rarely done. Good luck and put that degree away. It will take you 10 years.
*Keith, I failed to mention that my first two years in a Technical school, where I'm payng only $875 a semester, will transfer completely to Clemson University where I'm going to finish the Construction science and management bachelors. I just save a little money for my next 2 years.
*What I Have learned from this discussion:A degree is just a small pirk on my resume. Experience and work ethic is what I need to accomplish anything in the construction field. That's all I wanted to know. Thanks guys, you've been great
*But realize that, that $875 most of the guys on the job have made by Wednesday afternoon, for a reason. The very big E. And it WILL take you 10 years. First you need to earn respect, and that takes many years,.... some never get it.
*There you go Pete, Psychiatric Evaluations, that's your calling.Pete my lad, I've been doing this for 35 years and I've seen more than my share of snoddy nosed whiz kids with degrees trying to make it in this business and the kindest, most honest advise I can give you is when you come to the realization that you don't know squat about this business, we'll talk again.We live in a world that is so different than your academic life, it's unreal. Every man or woman's life here is dependent on each other. You make a mistake on an exam an you take a makeup. Here, you make a mistake and it can cost the life of a worker or the difference between profit and not making payroll.When you are in charge of a project, you had better know what you're doing. This isn't a game and you don't always get a second chance.35 years and I've never had a serious accident occur on my sites. That's what makes leaders.Gabe
*first i'd look for someone smart enough to know how to get the most out of this site...like going to the business section instead of the open forum... then .. i'd want a little more hat in hand.. instead of the 'Look out construction world.. here i am to save your ass."...in short.. too many statements and not enough of keeping your mouth shut and asking the old hands for help...course..u cud start over and reintroduce urself after such a bad start....college boy....
*Gabe, I honestly apologize if I came off as snotty kid, but I want you to understand that this is my way of getting the information I want. You're right Gabe. And I want to congratulate you on 35 years without an accident under your watch
*Find another way to get information. On a site, you would be a statistic.Gabe
*Oh come on Gabe... you never ONCE let some idiot you hated get hurt out of his own stupidity? I don't know if I can respect that. Some of the most widely remembered lessons are learned the hard way. Nobody forgets blood on the jobsite, or ambulances........... NEVER, not even ONCE? I would'nt let someone get mamed or killed, but stitches and bruises are fair game. I'll tell them once, then twice, but by the third....you're on your own. It's natures way...survive and get smarter and stronger...or go get a desk job.
*A more attractive candidate is probably an experienced South American tradesman who speaks fluent English.
*Well of course, Keith, a little blood is only natures way of making space for experience to set in.But it's the damn paper work afterwards.Had to go to a site, about 15 years ago, where a 17 year old was "supervising" a backhoe digging a trench though a pile of backfill material and got killed when the sides gave way.The company that he worked for, gave him the promotion to "supervisor" postumusly to get reduced fines.You're absolutely right, some lessons are never forgotten.Gabe
*Hey guys did you ever notice everybody who wants to get in the construction business wants to start as the boss.Nobody wants to do the work anymore,what a shame.Vince
*The real shame Vince, is that those who have the experience, also have enough brains not to be boss and put up with the associated headaches.Massive shortage of foremen being predicted.Gabe
*Does this attractive South American, fluent English speaking tradeswoman have big boobs?
*And a great ass?
*I knew you two would come full circle.Gabe
*No diseases either. all shots, green card, etc.
*No UNTREATABLE disease you mean....fun has to come with a little risk.
*Keith thinks safe sex is letting his foot off the gas when he does it.Gabe
*I don't let my foot off the gas....I just don't take my eyes off the road. Safety first!
*Keith must have a thing for short women........either that or contortionists
*Man the last thing I'd want to hit would be a hummer.Gabe
*#6 Translate for the boss
*Hey Pete, I've got a degree in architectural engineering, and have made at least one snotty-nosed remark to Gabe when I was new on this site...so that's what we have in common. Here's some lessons I learned the hard way... #1. Downplay your degree at all costs. Put in on your resume...at the bottom. Never bring it up in conversation. When the time is appropriate you will be asked about it. That's the only time you mention it. #2. Maintain a neat appearance. Ponytails and facial hair don't help you. Grow them later. #3. Listen to Gabe. #4. Grow thick skin. #5. Don't have your first goal be to run a project. Contain your ego, get your hands dirty and keep your mouth shut until you have worked in the business for a few years. Flow charts and Gantt charts and power point presentations don't make you a leader. Good luck.
*Wow, 41 posts in just over 2 hours! Touchy subject.I'm wondering what his profs have fed him. If he was really smart he'd have realized there is so much he doesn't know. The local university used to be #1 for arch/CM in the nation. So you could say our area is fairly saturated with these wonderboys. It's a sore spot with me because I see these fkids hinder the project way too often.Just in case Pete is still with us here; dude, you gotta learn to listen to your elders. Ef what you think you know. The guys here at FHB collectively know more than you'll ever hope to know. Many of them have the experience you'll be fortunate to acquire. And you write them off with your cheeky attitude. And then you make an excuse for your behavior.Rules for PeteCarrero to learn:1) Grow up.2) Shut up.3) Listen up.
*Pete,I look for common sense. Everything else is learnable. Never forget that college degrees do NOT make leaders. They make people who THINK they will be leaders. Effective leaders have an uncanny knack to get others to follow them, hell or high water. They earn the respect, trust, and necessary confidence of their crew. They EARN it. In Vietnam, the new Officer recruits that went in country thought they were leaders. A lot of them got killed quickly because they weren't really leaders. They just thought they were. The successful ones who lived (and some who weren't fortunate enough) stepped back, let the platoon sgt run things, and watched, observed, asked a lot of questions, and learned how to be an effective leader. They learned fast that the lives of every man in their platoon depended on EACH and every one of them. They learned that their decisions could mean life or death for EVERYONE, and stupid mistakes kill people. Those that proved themselves earned the respect and admiration of their unit. Those that didn't usually died. In construction, things aren't as black and white as school makes them out to be. You are really learning nothing more than organizational skills, and theories behind the methods. Actual methods vary in the field, and organizational skills are only a VERY small portion of the knowledge and skill you will HAVE to possess before you ever even think about being in charge. You must prove yourself to be an EFFECTIVE leader before you will ever be put in charge of ANYTHING. Most companies will start you off at the bottom, and you earn your way up the chain. Being a college grad, and having SOME management information (not skill yet, just information) you may get to move a little faster than normal, provided you have proven yourself along the way. You would not believe the extremely high number of individuals in the same shoes as you are right now that got canned early on becasue they were not willing to learn, and admit that they really didn't know anything about the reality of a live worksite. They just keep saying (to themselves, and out loud) that they are a college graduate, and far above all the rest of the crew. The crew will not put up with it, nor will the site boss. It brings disaccord into the well oiled machine of the crew. It causes problems, and a site boss with a large crew already has enough problems without adding another one like this. So, the problem is soon eliminated.Keep your ears open, ask a lot of questions, EARNESTLY learn all you can from everyone you can, and be patient. In time, you may very well be a great leader, and actually get to be in charge. Then you'll ask yourself "why on earth did I ever go into construction!!!"James DuHamel
*Pete,First I would like to qualify this by telling you I am not a contractor.I am a DIYer. I have been taking some courses at the local college. I am going to school with a supt from one of the larger commercial contractors here. he is taking the courses so he can not necessarily learn the trades but have a good idea about what is going on, what the guys have to go through. He finds it helps him tremendously. I think it would be a good idea if you did some work in the trades either full or part time. The guys in their own soft spoken way have have given you some good advice other than grow boobs. You should down play the college and the degree and play up the wanting to learn and be able to be the goat of about every type of joke you can imagine as a sort of break in period and have a extremely thick skin to boot. For some guys moms and wives and sisters are not off limits for discussions. The spainish will be helpful in certain parts of the country, Texas Arizona, Calif, Nevada would be good places. Good luck i hope this helps.
*Whew! 47 responses in just over 3 hours, really impressive. You can tell a lot of these guys have been there and done that in construction Pete, but Gabe hit it on the head for me. Construction, as it is practiced in the real world is a mean hard business filled with mean hard people because construction theory and technology aside the bottom line has always been that the work needs to be done, and done yesterday. I have 20 years in as a framing contractor and most of what Gabe said mirrors my own experience. Good luck.
*This is interesting. Right now I have the option of continuing on in my field (CNC machining which is in my opinion the epitome of boredom) or retraining through gov't grants through our local college in "Architectural Construction Engineering tech'y" a 3yr program with 3 co-op work terms. Now I'm wondering whether you guys who have done this would take the training then get onto a framing crew and get your hands dirty, or get dirty hands, then take a time-out to learn the school crap?? Talking to the school's administrator, he assured me that they have only "top quality co-op placements, all positions in supervision and management, no labour positions" - am I the only one who thinks that at least one of those placements should be at the crew level??Thanks for starting the thread Pete, thanks for the info guys!
*jag... i took the Const. Tech. program and never regretted it...if you are in a position to continue your education.. go for it..there's lots of time for work....
*True.......And as time marches on, the body slows. Always good to have additional training/education.....anything that keeps you from becoming a regular at the topless bars
*Just a few thoughts from the corporate world, in my 20 yrs. of engineering/management/technical in industry, the best leaders/managers/bosses are the ones that realize that they are only there to help/assist/facilitate the real workers. As was stated in the power plant business, if you are not operating or repairing the equipment that makes the juice, you are part of the support staff and should be doing everything in your power to help the ones that are. It seems that this could be very fitting in the other areas. A good boss realizes that his job is to see that his people are not held up by roadblocks and to remove those roadblocks whenever possible or to plan a way around the roadblock that causes the least impact on the job at hand. If a boss thinks of himself as a helper to his workers, he is on the right track. There are the other parts of the job also, but the most critical is to see that the workers can do their thing in the most productive way possible without jeopardizing safety. This perspective may not completely appy to the construction world but its a thought. Bottom line is that a higher position does not mean it is a more important position, just a different set of job specs. Lefty
*Having taken a path that includes lots of theory and lots of practical hands-on, I see value in both. If one has only practical experience, they can become better and better in the trades and eventually become craftmen in their field. But they will be limited in design and tackling new, never-seen-that-before kind of jobs.I've got to modify the above in that some people DO learn theory and design on their own and on the job, but that takes innate cleverness, initiative and mentoring that are uncommon.The guy with all the theory and no practical experience is both more annoying and more dangerous that the reverse. And that seems to be how Pete is being perceived here.I like Mike's thoughts about potential value of a Const. Tech. program. But would point out that, if at all possible, get some hands-on experience before or during the program. The course work will be more meaningful, understandable, and memorable for it. And the occasional wacko theories that get presented will be obvious as such. My second round at engineering school was much more productive than my first, having had lots of construction jobs in between. -David
*I hear and I forget.I see and I remember.I do and I understand.(Chinese proverb)
*Alright, I'll make my now scarcely heard and ever so humble opinion known. I'm with Gabe, Mike, James and almost everyone else on this issue, you can't learn this field in the classroom. My current major is Const. Technology/Management and what they teach in class doesn't make a scratch on what needs to be learned from actual experience. Actually I'm switching my major to business next semester because of this. The majority of my classmates all have the idea in their head that they're going to make it big right out of school, and I'll admit, some (but oh so very few) actually have. But 90% of the people in my major have NO clue. One actually decided to base his entire career choice on the fact that he liked playing with Legos as a child. He now thinks that he is going to save financially troubled builders "after a few yearsin the field." This prize of a WPM (wanna-be PM) can't even manage to drive a screw let alone manage anything.What bothers me the most is that my closer friends and I have all begun to pay our dues in this field and we fully expect to continue to pay them throughout our careers. The rest seem to think that this rule does not apply to them because they've been through college - I think not. I've gotten to a point where I'm almost ashamed to be a part of what I'm involved with. While I think the program can help one along with certain aspects of the field, it definately doesn't advance you above anyone else. But anyways, this is all just my ESHO. Keep giving him hell guys - Nick
*PeteI am a PM for a medium size company. The project I am presently working on is worth about 8 mil it has 2 civil engineers,2 structural engineers,mechanical,electrical and a host of other degree laden professionals.I have a high school diploma and 20 years of construction experience starting when I was 12.Each one of these professionals respects me as an equal and if they don't they will by the end of the project. I will take their plans that look good on paper but don't always work in the real world. You have to be able to do this in a way to gain their respect and not make them feel like an idiot. The same applies to the subs and their workers.The best advise I can give you are start at the bottom and learn & earn the respect of others.
*Jag,Im in a constuction tech course right now. I love it. Its a beautiful thing.
*Pete, i got roughly the same four-year degree magna cum laude in 1981 that you're getting now and can't see that it qualified me to boss anyone or fix anything when i graduated. Conversely, work experience is invaluable, but "35 years' experience" can mean someone had the same year's experience 35 times. Theoretical without practical knowedge (and vice versa) is like working with one hand tied behind your back. These guys have been telling you that you need to walk before you can run, but what you want to do is fly, and that takes some formal training. Still, people with perfectly good pilots' licenses die from hubris or a lack of experience. You're young and i'm female. Both of us have something to prove over the established men in this field. In contrast to others here, i don't find joy in deprecating youthful enthusiasm with snide remarks, so good on you for aiming high, and don't let the dino's of the world discourage you from proceeding at more than a snail's pace. Wrinkles help you to be taken seriously.FWIW, in my employees i value first of all integrity, not only in the sense that they won't steal from me, but that they have personal pride in a job well done, that they aren't just working for wages. I like a balance between deference to my experience and willingness to suggest i could be doing something a better way. I don't like drones who ignore warning signs and continue on past recovery. I like dogged determination, not giving up when things get tough. Humor and chutzpah are invaluable, and you seem to have both in good supply. (I have a song running through my head now: "Happy nails to you...")The secret to success is falling down six times and getting up seven. --Japanese proverb
*I worked twenty years in the trades and when the body gave out I went back to school and got a CE degree. In my final year I had profs who had no real world work experiences. They would design a concrete beam 25 inches high. I would point out that if the beam could be designed to 24 inches that a sheet of plywood could be split and used rather than having a 23 inch waste rip. My point is what others have been saying -- one needs common sense to go along with the degree. As a side note the one prof that I always disagreed with got me hooked-up with an engineering job the day after graduation.
*There are three paramount things you'll need to succeed. They are in this order: teamwork, teamwork, teamwork. Whether you're fresh out, or five years into it or even ten, there will always be someone who knows something you don't. Recognizing that and developing a relationship that helps you make use of what others know will always serve you well. If people don't want to work with you, they can always make your life hard, whether they're smarter than you or not. Being smart and knowing everything are two very different things. I've recently worked on several very big projects and it was the team oriented guys who had the best success.
*I was working as PM on a major regional hospital in '72 when the company for whom I worked introduced it's first university-educated, management trainee as my assistant.The reason that trainees were introduced then was that not enough managers were coming through the traditional route of Tradesman-Trade Foreman-Section Foreman-General Foreman and I would guess that it is even more so now.The only fault I found with them was a tendency to intellectual arrogance (I've been to University so I must be cleverer than these working stiffs) but this vanished fairly quickly when faced with the difference between theory and practice.My advice would be to keep your eyes and ears open and your opinions to yourself. Try and work on a variety of types of construction during the first years, even if it means changing jobs often or moving around the country.Never forget that the only people who get the job done are the workers on site and it is up to you to organise and plan to make things easy for them to do so.
*It seems we have lost Pete.My advice?Drop out of school and get a job.That's how I did it. 27 years later, I make the kind of money and get the kind of respect you're dreaming of.Every year you spend in school is one less year in the real world of construction.Hell, most of the people you want to be the boss of didn't graduate from high school. But they know more than you do.Good Luck.No one who is a good boss ever wanted to be the boss.Go figure.Ed.
*nick... long time ...will we see you at JLC in April (Prov )?maybe Angelo's too ...
*I know the president of Western Pacific Housing, San Diego division. He made it to that position at the age of 33. He framed and installed decks after high school and during summer breaks at college. After getting a degree in finance he went to work in customer service for Lennar Homes and then into project management within a year or so. He made the bigger moves in the company with his skills at producing computer generated project spreadsheets and just his general computer knowledge above and beyond others in the company. The brass saw this skill and promotions came. He moved over to Western Pacific and became the youngest to ever make president when the average age of presidents was in the 50's. I say rock on. Don't let others get in the way of your plan. In construction there's more than one way to skin a cat. There's no one path to success. Nothing becomes real until you dream it first. But then again, you better be a brilliant hard working SOB. GW
*This is the sort of thing that is going on in my neck of the woods, just the other day I was reading a job announcement for a major home builder that was for the position of construction superintendent,in the job description it said that no construction experience was needed, but a four year degree in a related field was.I have been in construction for 17 years, started from high school as a form setter for concrete foundations, worked my way up to foreman, then realized that I was destroying my body and switched to carpentry, and have done work in most trades.It just ticks me off when someone who has never drove a nail on a jobsite is trying to tell me that I have to build it exactly like the print says, even though it isnt possible, you cant get it through these guys heads that 1+1 dont always equal two in the field.
*Hey Mike, yes, it's been a long time... too long actually. Yes I'm hoping to be in Providence once again this April. I think I'll be able to have a bit more fun this year seeing as I won't be tied down to that fool booth most of the day.
*Hey Pete, I hope your still lurking out there and reading this post. Have you thought about going into residential remodeling for a while? I started out of college doing handy-man type stuff. If I didn't know how to do something I spent half a day at the library reading everything I could on the subject. When i screwed up I did it over until I got it right or hired somebody else and ate the lose. The first couple of years were rough but after 7 years I'm living quite comfortably and doing big exciting whole house remodeling projects (maybe not a 100 story skyscraper but big for me). It seems like being a laborer in a trade, especially commercial, would limit how much exposure you get of the big picture. When doing residential remodeling on you own or with someone whose been doing it, you get a much more accurate picture of all the pieces. If you want to move into commercial, the concepts are bascially the same (I would think) just on a much grander scale. Just a thought.Eric
*Pete,Don't let any of these bums steer you wrong. They're all just jealous. You take my advice and you'll be president of the company in no time flat...Get your diploma photcopied. Put a copy of it on your desk. A copy on your wall. A copy on your office door. Have a copy shrunken, and laminated, then get one of those clip thingy's and clip it to your shirt pocket. Then, every time some yahoo doesn't agree with some decision you make, just point to the diploma. These guys aren't half as smart as you are. Let them know that you know that.In conflicts that involve management, whenever your boss seems like he is starting to take the side of some peon carrying a hammer, you just point to that diploma again. Believe me, Pete. The one single most important thing that you must do, is to make sure that all these numbskulls who pound nails all day, know just how much more intelligent you are. And you have to let them know who is boss. Insist on having the job done your way or else. If a mistake is made, blame it on labor. The boss will understand that it couldn't have been your fault, (you just point to that diploma again.).
*Luka, Too funny, too true.I can almost see the clip thingy and how it would work.best, DC
*Pete, Gabe and I almost never agree on things but he's at least partially right on this. Without understanding the actual doing of a job you don't know enough to make well informed decisions. OK you don't have to be the best sheetrocker or framer in town but you'd better have a damn good idea of what those skills mean. I disagree with those who say your degree is worthless. In some cases it will make the differance if you're hired or not. When you try to build a home or office for someone who worked hard to get his degree, you'll have a darn hard time convincing them that practical experiance is proper subsitution. They tend to trust those who have had similar backgrounds. There is a world of differance between a summer job and managing a project. I feel certain that's what so many are trying to say. Build your parents a new house, keep it under budget and have it wind up better than you expected and you gain a small measure of creditablity. Untill then don't expect someone to pay you to learn how to do the job.
*Pete, I have to agree with what Frenchy was saying. I'll also add that I don't think you need to sweat it out in the trenches to understand construction. Specific skills yes but not everyone needs to know how to tape drywall, screed a slab, hang a door, etc. I know all the rebuttals will be the standard "if only architects and engineers spent some time in the field, then things would be easier to build" True. Very true. But they don't, never will and yet still will start out at quite a bit more money starting salary their first year out of school than many of us will make in the field after years of work. Sad truth of modern America but that piece of paper is worth quite a lot more than years of experience. Not at quiting time when having a beer at the local bar but in the accounting office when paychecks are being written. Don't misunderstand me, I don't agree with it but thats the way it is. Also true, many of the guys here are VERY successful in being self-employed. They are the anomoly. They make more money doing things on their own than some degreed people will ever make. Only problem is, not everyone is cut out to be their own boss. I think the ideal situation would be where you would graduate, get a job paying decent money that you feel is worth a first year out of college pay yet you are still low of the hierarchy. This way you are paid for your book education yet can earn the experience and respect of the others you work with by being with them in the field for a few years. Just my .02 cents of course.Mike
*Frenchy, you've been agreeing with me too often lately and it's starting to look like you're coming over to the dark side.Gabe
*I think Pete said "Screw you all" and left to go to class or something.No great loss I guess.Hehehehehe....Boy is he in for a shock!Ed.
*Frenchy! Don't do it! Come back! Don't go to the Dark Side!! Think of all the questions you'll have to listen to Gabe answer!!Rich Beckman
*Ed, Yeah, maybe after reading all our posts he changed his major and became a pharmacist or something...?Mike
*In a related note-----wouldn't it be great if architects occasionally had to fix at THEIR expense our mistakes.It would be a welcome change from the contractor always being expected to somehow fix the architects f!@# -up and absorb the cost!
*Another thought, it would probably do a lot of the builders/construction crafts/workers a lot of good to see the process from a different pont of view also. After a little time in the shoes of the designer, architect, engineer, etc., they might gain a little different view of the operation by getting a different perspective. It has always been easy to throw knives at the other guy but until you have done his job and get a feel for the problems, you don't know the whole story. Just a thought from the shadows.Lefty
*You are so right Lefty....I design most of my projects...It's not easy work! All the aspects of the design have to work together...both of your clients have to agree....and after it is all done...Yaa get paid 5-10% for the effort!...Piddly I say.near the stream happy to be designing only so that I may then be the builder...the Carp....the Mechanical tech...the rocker..the plywood hauler...master painter...and on...ajI respect archs tremendously..and ones that know their engineering even more!And Pete....aim for the top...Remember this and every business is a people business. Love your men, listen to them and make their days safe, efficient, and worthy. And aim for 2 years to PM...not 10!
*"I think the ideal situation would be where you would graduate, get a job paying decent money that you feel is worth a first year out of college pay yet you are still low of the hierarchy. This way you are paid for your book education yet can earn the experience and respect of the others you work with by being with them in the field for a few years"I wish I could get rich the first year out of school. Unfortunately the program I am looking at boasts an average salary of $30,000 in the first year out of school. Of course it has a 97% placement rate. 95% field related full time. THen again these stats are supplied by the collegeand I am jaded enough not to entirely believe them. (45% of statistics are just made up you know)I could make more cash in Machining, but I'd rather be doing something I enjoy.Even if Pete is gone, I'm still enjoying.
*i remember a post a while back where everyone was saying that the kids of today dont want to go into the trades at least hes considering it. All the info he was givin in these post were the real world experiences not some text book stuff. The only problem i see with todays youth is they think they are entitled to the big bucks just because they have a degree. They dont want to do it the old fashsion way and earn it. Pete will be in for a sad awakining when 99% of what he sees on the job site isnt in his text book. I give Pete credit for wanting to join us in the trades but he will have to follow the same path we all did. Many of us ended up in this business not by choice but by nessesity many of us only have high school degrees and this is all we know. Im sure many of us if we had the chance to do it over again would have stayed in school and got a better eduction and persued a different carrer but hide site is 20/20 now at age 40 my back and legs hurt everyday and i feel like im an old guy. Pete really take in what you have read in these posts its all true mabey after a few years on the job you may consider a new carear choice while you still have the chance.
*It's not easy to find first year jobs out of college that pay anything, no matter what your field. Seems $30K is about average in a variety of fields in my area. People seem to think that you can't ever make any money unless you go to school, while many "middle managers" and other grads even 10 yrs out that I know make less and work more than those I know in the trades. With the predicted labor shortages in coming years and the general misery of corporate life (IMO), hopefully kids won't be treated as losers if at 18, they decide they'd rather pour concrete than sit through a bunch of silly classes just to please their parents.This isn't to diminish the importance of higher education, but my point is that it depends on the individual, and that popular perception discourages young people from entering the trades. But then again, people my generation (I'm 21) seem to think they won't have to work for a living...
*As i read your first sentence you say " its not easy" who told you it would be easy? very few things in life are.Thats the problem with the youth today they all want it easy.
*Attitude counts for a lot in my opinion and my experience, a thick skin doesn't hurt either. Happy holidays.
*good one luka...lol!
*Stephen don't kid yourself. On our projects, architects and engineers DO pay for their mistakes.Gabe
*Pete,As you've probably figured for yourself already, you'll have to be able to deal with a certain number of a--holes with chips on their shoulders along the way, but you don't have to BE an a--hole with a chip on your shoulder to make it. The things it takes to make it in a profession are inherent ability, determination, perseverance and the willingness to pay your dues. That combination will determine how far you get. Your degree will be neither necessary nor sufficient but it will tell a potential employer that you have the intellectual capacity, ambition, and drive to achieve the degree, and that ain’t bad. You should find someone in the trades who is in a position that you want to be in and see if you can make an appointment to talk to him/her. You might take him/her to lunch or dinner and ask them how they got there and what advice they might have for you. I think that’s what you were trying to do here but it went a little awry because they thought you were being cocky. You’d be surprised how willing someone like that would be to talk to you (especially if they aren't a--holes). You might even be able to find out about mentoring or student intern opportunities.Good luck and aim high. Your grasp should always exceed your reach!“He who thinks himself a stag but is in fact an ass will learn the nature of his mistake when he goes to leap the ditch.” – old Italian proverb
*Gabe, the mistakes I am thinking of is placing chimneys smack dab in the middle of a valley or or designing a "blind valley" which drains directly against a bedroom wall.I see these several times a year and I doubt these goofs have ever cost the architects a nickel.Unfortuneately the homeowner and a long series of contractors will be paying for these types of mistakes for many decades.
*Andy,I agree 100% with you. I was talking the other day to some guys and one guy said that they wanted there kids to be an engineer. I told them I wanted my kid to get into the trade maybe be a plumber or electrician. they laughed and laughed. Then I asked well how much does a engineer make. ( No answer) so I said oh maybe 60K-70K huh? about 30 bucks a hour or so i said well my bud does service plumbing and been doing it for a while (about 25 years) and has a good rep. he charges 75.50 an hour. If hes there for 10 mins 75.50 if hes there for 65 mins then 151 dollars, they really couldnt say much after that. But in reality, Iwant my kids to decide what they want to do. But one thing I will demand is if they want to go into engineering great but they best have a trade behind them. Something to fall back on. I dont want them to be sitting in a office listening to a abusive pointy headed boss(dilbert)expressing his frustrations. My bud (whose sick right now please pray for him) used to sit in meetings with the pointy headed boss listen to him rant and smile and say " I really dont give a shit about what your talking about. I really dont need this job" believe it or not the pointy headed boss just left him alone after that and started harrasing someone else. My bud is one one of the best electricians in So Cal He is awesome.
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As a full-time student majoring in Construction Engineering Technology, I am interested in knowing what contractors look for in possible employees. My first goal after graduating from school is to work as a project manager or in a similar position. Besides experience, what other qualifications would you find necessary in an employee to manage your projects?