Replies

1. 
   calvin | Jan 31, 2010 08:32pm | #1

   The easy answer is whatever you're worth.

   The harder answer is whatever the market will bear.

   If experience is the question many of us should be making a whole lot more than we do.

   In this economy you have to start thinking hard on your own. Some will say that just having a job is the main thing. Any benefits just icing on the cake. What do you think you're worth?

   I didn't look at your profile, what's your location?

   In the scheme of things, 4 yrs exp. isn't much. And to specialize in finish isn't much either. The number of finish only operations is extremely small. To fit in with a smaller design build company, you'd be expected to frame also.

   Best of luck.

2. 
   trimdaddy | Jan 31, 2010 11:14pm | #2

   The obvious answer is whatever the market will yeild, and that varies greatly from one area to another and from one economic cycle to another. The area were I am from has alot of desperate carps who will work for a little bit of nothing. It is a struggle for me to know where to draw the line at how low I will go for work. On one hand any wage is better than sitting at home, on the other hand if I'm willing to settle for anything, I will never make more than that. In the beginning you are probably going to have to work for less until you prove yourself and build up your reputation to the point were people are willing to pay more if need be to have you on there job. Don't be scared if you lose a couple jobs because of your pricing but if you start losing too many of them than you probably need to adjust your pricing. That applies the other way as well. If no one ever complains about your pricing than your probably too low.

   Good luck....just for the record, most of the trim guys I know work for an hrly rate of about 35$ per.

   That is decent money but there is more money to be made if you get good doing jobs on bids vs. hourly.

1. 
   DanH | Jan 31, 2010 11:39pm | #3

   $35/hour? A lot more than I'm making now programming.

1. 
   NickNukeEm | Feb 01, 2010 09:26am | #4

   Often those numbers include overhead, which can chew up a significant percentage of that number.

1. 
   DanH | Feb 01, 2010 08:02pm | #5

   I'm supplying my own
   I'm supplying my own computer, printer paper, printer cartridges, etc. And about a third of the time I'm working from home. No bennies -- 1099 work.

1. 
   Piffin | Feb 01, 2010 11:37pm | #6

   Different kind of work and skills in a different industry has absolutely nothing to do with the OP Q.

   For him, Whether he CAN do skill sets like crown, stairs, baseboard, doors etc, is valued in respect to whether he can do them well and fast and get along well with the other guys in determining what his value is to a company.

2. 
   DanH | Feb 02, 2010 06:58am | #7

   Pretty much the same questions in any industry.

   The big issue these days is simply supply and demand. If there's demand for your type of work (which is rare) you can command a premium wage. If the market for what you do is really in the toilet, though, you're fighting with a bunch of other similarly qualified guys for barely over minimum wage.

3. 
   jimmiem | Feb 28, 2010 03:02pm | #14

   Time to find a new line of work. Rates are way down...offshoring, Green Cards, technology changes.

   I feel your pain.

   Same problem in Boston MA area.

   After Y2K everything seemed to go downhill.

4. 
   measureright | Mar 02, 2010 08:36pm | #17

   Roosevelt , forgot that in a true Demoratic society , that it is not the responsibility of the workers to provide , a reasonably good place for ALL  to live unless they work as hard , as long , etc as the working class. He was very out of touch with the real world in which there is a certain segment of society , that is just plain lazy, irresponsible, and yes Iam sorry to say ignorant.-

   __ The Real World

2. 
   robert | Jan 25, 2011 07:28pm | #19

   The real question is.......

   $35/hour? A lot more than I'm making now programming.

   Are they making $35 an hour as employees? Or as Subs?  $35 an hour as a Sub?  Some places that's a lot. Others? you'de be better to work the pro-desk at Home depot.

3. 
   toolpouchguy | Jan 26, 2011 06:39am | #22

   ha

   well if you would work and get off here you would make more money .

   seem's to me you complain alot ,that just keeps you poor

   cheer up you old fart

2. 
   catfish | Feb 07, 2011 03:12pm | #25

   Top money in Tulsa, Ok right now is 13-18.  Depends on the houses your doing.

3. 
   Norman | Feb 02, 2010 02:11pm | #8

   It will also depend on location. Owing to ethnic rivalries, a finnish carpenter is not in high demand in Sweden, so the price will drop. On the other hand, I am told that a finnish carpenter in Russia is worth their weight in gold.

   ;-).

1. 
   DanH | Feb 02, 2010 07:30pm | #9

   Darn, I was just going to chime in with the same sentiment.

4. 
   JeffyT | Feb 02, 2010 09:08pm | #10

   Setting crown, casing, and base does need to be done well, but it's not the complicated end of trimming out.

   Your worth will actually have more to do with how efficiently you quote/estimate. Can you work both quickly and well? How well scheduled are you? Can you manage a crew? Can you hire a crew and keep up with the related paperwork? Are you financed well enough to set up with a complete set of equipment and a vehicle to haul it all around in? Are you insurable and bonded? Do you have a couple of good upstanding customers who will praise your work to whoever calls them as references? Can you work efficiently on a site where there are 3 other subs jockeying for space and time?

   With all that and some other stuff (maybe a trade certification, depending on where you are) you could get some work as a carpenter and maybe do some specializing in finish work once your reputation gets established.

   Until that tiime you're an installer.

   Nothing wrong with that at all, but your rates will reflect and you might have been wealthier to stay in a cabinet shop.

   j

1. 
   ubc | Feb 10, 2010 09:03am | #11

   "Setting crown, casing, and base does need to be done well, but it's not the complicated end of trimming out."

   Ahhh...that's what we call crapsmanship.

   Just another indication of the spiraling downward state that our trade finds itself in. And we wonder why we have problems getting a fair wage.

   But what do I know?

5. 
   IdahoDon | Feb 19, 2010 01:39pm | #12

   Since you're asking you don't know what finish carps are making in your area--a good thing to know if you are competing against them.  Call around and ask for the lead guy on the finish crew and ask for a little help understanding what the top guys are making--in 20 calls you'll probably make contact with 6 people--4 of those will probably talk with you a little and you'll quickly see if the market for employees tops out at $15, or $35. 

   There is a huge difference between what a finish carp makes on a crew and what he makes working on his own.   For instance in Boise a finish carp working for someone else won't make more than about $15 before this years recession--even the best all around carpenters I've met were working for about this.

   However in a nicer niche in the same town as an independant contractor something in the $25-$35 range was reasonable before the recession, with established outfits  being able to bill out closer to $40-$50 for finish work.

   In a high wage area employees can bring $35 or $40 and in a lower wage area $10 may be tops.

   I judged my rates based on the amount of work I had booked....when I'm booked 4 months out it's about time to increase rates to take advantage of clients who would pay the extra to have a job done sooner.  Same goes for when work is only booked a month out I'm generally feeling more comfortable dropping rates to have that extra work in "savings". 

   When you are getting started it's hard to break into some markets so you'll need to be cheap to get your foot in the door, but you'll quickly see if you're seen by clients as worth more or less.

6. 
   IdahoDon | Feb 19, 2010 03:17pm | #13

   Also you might look into doing some small jobs for established smaller contractors. That gets you in the door, they will generally let a new guy give away work for less than he's worth and you'll see a number of other finish guys you'll be able to network with. Once they've used you once they will adjust what they pay you a bit to reflect how you stack up against other guys, but on the low side.

   As a young guy more than anthing else you need to be exposed to experienced finish carps so I'd suggest you go to work for the crew that does the best work in your area--you will quickly see how you stack up and learn from the more experienced guys.

   If you are certain that you don't want to work for anyone else then you'll want to get your business skills figured out and get squared away as far as licenses, insurance and materials so you can work as a sub. If you don't have the resources or credit to go a few weeks or a month without a check, you need to hone you're presentation and customer service skills to work directly for homeowners.

   Again you are at a huge disadvantage by not having worked with an experienced finish guy and learning how to interact with clients and learning the various benefits and risks of the various types of agreements and payment options.

   A good presentation and ability to close a deal with energy & excitment for the clients and project and say without flinching "my rates are $xx an hour and I can get started today!" is worth about 25% more than the guy who hums and haws, and probably 50% more than the guy who doesn't come across well to that type of client.

7. 
   sunsen | Mar 01, 2010 08:27pm | #15

   I always tried for as much as I could get, heh, heh.

   Just figure out what you'd be comfortable working at and ask for that price. If you're confident you're worth the money your clients will sense that and be okay with it. Unless of course that confidence is unwarranted, in which case you probably won't be there long. Then you just learn that you need more experience for that pay grade. (Well, there is the possibility that your client doesn't know their a** from a hole in the ground but you ought to be able to make that judgement.)

   If you're working for an experienced builder then they probably have a pretty good idea of what you're worth to them which means you have to live with that, or move on.

8. 
   Tyr | Mar 02, 2010 02:42am | #16

   Location makes the difference.  Denver it will be $30/hr.  That is working for someone else because you didn't say anything about starting up a new business in your post.  Do you have your own tools?  Truck with rack to carry the trim?  The $30 is what you get.  A GC will charge a fixed amount that will be based on at least $60/hr.        Insurance, overhead, profit, etc.

   I took a temp job for two weeks a while back and there was an electrician used to union work.  They needed help plumbing a research building (limited life--no codes--license not needed).  I said "sure".  Electrician insisted on doing only electrical work.  He was laid off.  I was asked to stay for 2 years--longer than I planned but I was just filling a slow time anyway.

   Try a lower rate (say $20) for a two week probationary period and then have it go to $30.  Do everything you are asked to do--run forklifts, frame, insist on selecting your own trim especially if the job calls for stain grade.  If benefits are offered then it will be less per hr.

   Get it in writing.

   If you are working in CA it will be higher.  NE or KS will be lower.  If you have a decent bookstore where you are (Barnes and Noble, Borders, etc) go to the engineering section.  They will have paperback books on estimating that are adjusted for location (at least by state) and give hourly rates for specialists and generalists.  Big crew vs small crew.  Go with the generalist, small crew in your area and don't include materials, overhead and profit if you are working for someone else.  You don't have to buy the book.  There are some to avoid if based on union rates so read the front and it will explain how rates were arrived at.    Ah, to be 24 (and immortal) again.   Tyr

9. 
   toolpouchguy | Jan 25, 2011 06:53am | #18

   I was a trim guy  for many years and it was great, if it was a house I would charge a 1000 dollars a day supply and install

   and one helper truck trailer tools, you must work very fast .never had any probs making this ,but took a few years to get there 

   if i was doing stairs it would be a different price ,depending on type of materials used # of risers curved no curved winders etc...

   not all house's I would charge that price either you must choose those job's to do by the hour .if there is trades everywhere and you know they will be there when you arrive you must price to allow for a little down time .

   I use to measure everything one day and precut window fillers caseing etc in my shop really makes you money that way if you can measure well and have a shop .measure doors and send the order out in advance .

   so with experience comes money with little comes little money .

   I have a great trim supplier ,they make 3/4" trim  materials they treat me very well. mill my fillers as needed 

   they supply doors 3/4" jambs cherry doors oak doors whatever ,they drill and hinge set in frames ,i pick up and install 

   so if you have a suppliers for hardware you can send clients to ,a trim supplier a trailer to haul it around a truck full of tools 

   know how to make something bad look good 'never complain about the guy's before you ,shut up and work you can make some good money.

   if you complain about the framers have trouble hanging doors in bad openings ,trimming out of square windows,etc... you may never make money .   if you sit around and talk with the other trades to learn about there work ,you may never get fast

   it all depends on you. you can work by the hour and make a wage ,or get fast and make some money 

   I joined the school of hard knocks did my time ,worked for little money ,worked for free ,learned as much as i could ,

   never bring a mitre trimmer on a job you will look like an idiot and never get fast ,it is all about measuring CUT TO FIT OR CUT TILL IT FIT'S  your choice the more trips you make to your saw the less you make , I still cope with a copeing saw I can hold the trim in my hand no need to clamp it to my bench one less step ,I hear of people using grinders jig saws etc.. if I trim i still have a old LS 1011 makita all you need ,I cut everything to my left ,one leg on my bench . it's all about shaving second's not minuets or hours .

   if you start buying fancy tools to haul around and think it will make you life easier you are fooling yourself into want not need 

   I recently bought a festool track saw I thought i needed it but in the end it was more want ,what i used it for i have done other ways for many years ,so... I am a fool for a tool 

   but if you want to know about an hourly wage for yourself , I am sure if you work for a trim company they can tell you very fast if you are worth a dam or not  

   so first you get good then you get fast   

10. 
    robert | Jan 25, 2011 07:59pm | #20

    worth is no more than a relationship

    If the boss needs someone who can hang 7' solid core doors over hardwoods and have them be perfect every time? And the extent of your skill is hanging hollow cores over subfloor with mitres that can be caulked?

    your worth is low.

    Conversely if the boss needs a guy who can hang 15 hollow cores over subfloor a day? And you can hang 20? Your worth is high.

    It really is that simple.

    you also need to strengthen your skill set. This will ruffle feathers.................but I can teach someone how to cut, cope and hang crown a lot quicker than i can teach them how to cut and frame a hip roof.

    If your goal is to be a finish carpenter much of your life will come down to how fast or how perfect, and sometimes both.......

1. 
   toolpouchguy | Jan 26, 2011 06:37am | #21

   well said

   I tell all the guy's that help me first ya get good then you get fast ,almost anyone can do a good job if the spend hours at it ,it's to do a good job fast

   A TRIMMER helped my ONCE and first thing he said was I will take that room ,I laughed at him ,I said you will prep windows and mesure while you do each one, and mark them on the drywall while I hang doors .

   doors first then  windows base last walk away

   and start very early in the morning before anyone gets there before 6 is good

1. 
   robert | Jan 26, 2011 10:38am | #23

   same order

   doors first, windows next, crown, then baseboards.

1. 
   DoRight | Feb 03, 2011 11:09pm | #24

   WOW - alot of great posts

   Not that this was my thread, but thanks everyone for the great posts.

   Not that the poor guy his number or dollar figure, but that makes perfect sense too!  Great posts.