Finally got around to bringing the camera to work again as I’m really enjoying our current frame. Thought maybe I’d share some pics with some of you who may be interested in framing.
I read someone’s post here recently where he said something to the effect of, “I’ve always wondered what a framer would need chop saw for…” or something to that effect. Maybe this’ll shed a little light on that one. 😉
I’ll break it up into several posts as I’ve got more pictures than I remembered. I’ll start with some basic pictures of the shell. These were taken once we got the ridge beams up and most of the commons in. From there we started filling in the valleys, framing out the shed dormer rake walls (and trimming them), and generally tieing in the all the roof framing and sheathing.
Here’s a pic of the last of the five shed dormer rakes waiting to be installed. I prefer to build them on the benches where my feet are flat on the ground, tools are readily available, and QC is at it’s highest. It’s a good system and works well for us as you don’t have to work from the roof as you would if you waited until it was all sheathed in. Second pic is a couple of the boys filling in some shed rakewall framing.
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All right here's the second set...
I'll start with a couple of pics of a large "hanging valley" or "true valley" as some call them. There's just something beautiful about this style of valley framing to me. They're a joy to frame and always make me smile when I look up at the sky through one that's finished but not yet sheathed. Sometimes I'm actually bummed when it's time to cover some of the framing up with sheathing.
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The difference in the heights of the two ridges is only about 6 inches on this particualar one though so the framing isn't quite as striking as it could have been. Next house I'm doing as three of this type of valley though.
Here's some more pictures of the exterior elevations and it's progression...
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As you can see in the last couple pictures on the last post, we started some of the soffit, fascia and frieze work. The main house has a built up frieze with crown and all the main gables have crown running down the rakes. My personal feeling is that crown in these locations tends to get lost in the busy-ness of the roof lines and the effort would be better spent elsewhere. But then again.... I'm just the framer.
Here's some pics of the trim moving along....
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I needed to cut some crown for the fascia line of the window bay at a 60 degree miter to properly die into the main house wall. We whipped together a quick little jig to cut the crown on the table saw and tack the crown to it with 18ga nails to keep it where it needed to be during the cut. It worked out quite nicely I think.
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Moving right along.....
Here's some pics of that window bay with the crown all finished up. The walls were framed and sheathed during the first floor wall framing (obviously) but the rest we did during trim out. From that point (including raw window installation) it myself and my best guy the better part of a day to finish it up. Good thing the trim out was an 'extra'. Anyway... here it is all buttoned up with the exception of a transition piece on each side to transisition to siding a little more smoothly....
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I always like reading your threads.You do great work.Best, Mongo
Thanks Mongo. We try.View Image
All right here's my last five pictures (if any of you are still with me!). This is how it stands as of today. Yesterday we installed the rest of the windows. We still have a couple of days left out here.
The front of the house still gets a large farmer's porch which is what the rest of that foundation is for out front. It will be bluestone on a slab and the foundation has a brickshelf so it will be skirted in tumbled brick. We're going to frame the hipped and valleyed roof for it this week and trim it as well as the beamwork out before we leave. After the masons leave, the GC will set the 14" columns himself so we'll leave it temp posted.
We also have some frieze boards left to do that tie into the window trim as well as trimming out the two larger of the three garage bays.... the transoms for the garage are running a few days late, or they would have been trimmed out by now. And there's various knicknacks to tie up here and there as well including 15" built up corner boards in the front which will be broken up by the farmer's porch roof.
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So that's it for now kids. I will take some pics before we leave with that porch done, the built up cornerboards in, and the garage trimmed out. That front porch should dramatically change the appearance of the front of the house.... should really dress it up nice.
All in all..... I think my owning a SCMS is justified anyway. ;)View Image
verrrrry nice! I agree about the look of a cut-and-stack roof, there's a certain beauty that just isn't the same with a truss roof. Thanks for posting the pics!"...an open mind is a powerful thing. The ability to listen to others is invaluable."
Jim Blodgett
Waaaaayyyyyyy Cool.
I can't believe ya have windows before dry in tho..is that common? What about the jambs if it rains?
Otherwise..carry on..LOLSpheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
No not common at all Duane but that's what the builder wanted to do. These guys don't F around bro. The super comes by daily to check on us, but the real boss flys up from Florida about once a week to do a walk through. Cool cat with megabucks (this is a small spec for them). Anyway, a little extra sanding if need be isn't going to break the budget on this one. The cost of the land alone would make you throw up (it's in Concord, MA).
That being said, that quadruple casement window on the back of the house was a misorder from another spec they did. They brought it over the first week we started framing and leaned it up against a wall out back. I asked if they wanted me to tarp it and they said not to bother. Ok I said. We got a ton of humid thunderstorms during this frame and when we set that window this week, the preprimed jambs looked perfectly fine. Even I was surprised.View Image
Whew...OK.
Man, I just thought someone forgot the felt! LOL.
Do you guys dry in or does a roofer come along? I mean normally, not in this case.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
I don't dry in. If you look closely, you'll see we put housewrap behind anything we cover up and additionally we install a lot of I&W in the roof nooks and crannys while we're triming and sheathing if it's going to create a spot that'll be tough to get at later.
It's nice to think about how you or I would "do it" in a perfect world, but we ain't in one. At the end of the day, I'm still running a business here. I'm not about to volunteer for wrapping the entire house or installing felt on the roof if the GC isn't interested in me doing the work and I'm not going to get paid for it either. The craftsman in me and the businessman in me quite often disagree, but when the rubber meets the road "standards" don't make payroll, forklift payments, or mortgage payments. Know what I mean? I do the best I can given the parameters I have to work with.View Image
I hear that loud and clear.
I see what ya mean about them valleys, that is a sweet view.
Damm I miss framing when I see what you're up to. But not THAT much..(G)Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
Nice work as always, Brian. I was wondering the same thing about the dry-in. Around here until recently, the framers "blacked in". They always said that instead of dried in, because it still leaked like a sieve. More and more, we're getting the call to dry-in as it's being framed before the windows and doors are installed. That's good for the GC and us, since they've got a dry structure to start the mechanicals in and we don't get rushed to get a finished roof on.
What happened to the grill of your truck? Oops.
View Imagehttp://grantlogan.net/
"he ot the placed closed down whyyy thhhattt nnooo gooodddd" - sancho
Thanks Grant. When the roof happens to fall under my scope of work (sometimes I have to take it to get a job) I do the same.... try to have the roofer lined up as early on as possible.
I couldn't figure out what you were talking about with my grill so I went back through the thread and looked. I think what you're seeing is distortion from when I downsized the pictures. I'm not sure why, but the pictures I posted kinda look crappy now that they've been resized... weird sort of distortion around black/shadowy areas and the detail seems washed out. I think that must be what you're seeing cuz the grill on the truck is just fine.... no accidents or anything.View Image
Looks like a fun job. I wish they did some of that trim work out west.
Is that more shear than you usually do back there ?
Looks good,Looks tight.
Next
By shear I'll assume you're refering to using 1/2" fir on the whole frame. No, not more than usual. Never actually framed a home myself that wasn't fully sheathed in ply or OSB. Maybe 90% ply and 10% OSB would be the averages. But always fully sheathed. Is that what you were referring to?View Image
Is Concord your normal stomping ground?I was up there two days ago for a bit of bizniz.Mongo
Is Concord your normal stomping ground?
Yeah, I suppose so. It's only about 25 min from my house. My "normal stomping ground" is a pretty broad swath up and down 95..... say from Rt 2 all the way down to Rt 30... and then some really. View Image
Good looking, crisp work. Are the corners to be 5/4?
Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
The corners that are all ready up... the flat stock ones, are 3/4. The ones we'll be building up on the front corners of the main will start with 15" rips of 3/4" MDO. Next we'll run 1x3 up the sides to create a recessed panel look. We'll clean up with 1/4 round on the inside of the panel frames, 5/4 bases and tops and then run a cap of covered crown around the top, right at the built up frieze.View Image
Humidity you say?This week was running about 85° and 85-95% humidity. I'd be soaked thru by 10:00 and drink a good three quarts of water thru th eday.While you were posting these, I was out drying in our addition 25' up in the sky. So much haze you just KNEW there was a thunderboomer coming so I kept on going to keep the main house dry. I was panting from the heat, humidity, and ozone.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Nice job. How will it be sided?
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
Thanks Nick. It'll be cedar claps like the rest of the town.View Image
Man that's some good framing porn. You know I'm interested in the Tyvek. What is that around the bottom? Is it stapled on and just hanging or what?
Don't answer for a few minutes I'm almost there and don't want an Email to kill the mood.
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Whale Oil Beef Hooked.
http://www.walkmoreeatless.com/
The 16" course of Tyvek around the bottom of the frame? I'll assume that's the one you're talking about.... it's for the water table. Just stapled up with a hammer tacker.
Hope ya got yer nut off. View Image
Ahhhhh Thaaaank yoooooou. Frame a little slower next time so I can enjoy it longer. :)
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Whale Oil Beef Hooked.
http://www.walkmoreeatless.com/
That house ain't a piece of meat, ya know. I'll bet it feels used and dirty.
(This is getting too weird.... I gotta bail bro) LOL....View Image
Yea. I'm feeling bad about it too. Yucky actually.
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Whale Oil Beef Hooked.
http://www.walkmoreeatless.com/
Yuck yuck yuck
Yeh... That'll work.
>>Yea. I'm feeling bad about it too. Yucky actually.
I'm not surprised, with everyone watching and all...
Brian...nice job.. lot's of detail..
any special engineering tie-ins on your valley to ridge connections ?
also.... on the main roof...can you show some details of the rake / eave trim ?
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missed your smiling face in Tremblant..
made it back in 9 hours... from bed to bed..
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Hi Mike,
Nothing special about the valley to ridge connection. Just face nailed to the ridge through the cheek cut. The valleys were/are double LVLs but I like to hang them one at a time (sistering in place) so as to get better nailing at that connection.
The main house roof has some two pretty cool site built trusses made from LVL's. I wish I had some pics of those, but didn't have the camera with me at the time. I think you would have found them quite interesting though... I'll see if I can get some pics on Monday of them.
I'll attach some full-size pics to this post so you can see more of the detail. Irfanview really did a number on my pics while downsizing. I'll also take some close up pics of some of the trim details for you on Monday. I was just messing around in Irfanview with the original files.... I can't figure out how to zoom and just save the portion of the pics that I want. But if you save these pics (they're very high def) and open them in Irfanview, you can really see the detail up close very nicely and see the transition from eave trim to frieze across the gables. If you can manage to post a close up or two, I'd appreciate it. Just don't be shining a flashlight on any sins you might come across. ;)
EDIT: Pic 130 seems to give the best views. While you're checking out the trim..... check out the back end of the forklift.... down near the counterweight underneath the CAT tag. :)
Also... I just opened them right here on BT and there's no need to save 'em to Irfanview to see the detail. If you're patient enough for the big files to open you can see some detail just fine.
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Edited 8/26/2007 9:43 am ET by dieselpig
Edited 8/26/2007 9:47 am ET by dieselpig
the pics opened fine for me.. and i caught your Yankee fan emblem.... ( snort )
looks like they'll be playing golf in October..
does the rake trim extend to hide the yet-to-be-hung gutters ?
yeah.. bring your camera and get some more of the details on Monday... trusses, trim.. the worksMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Yes, the rake trim does extend for a gutter return. It looks nice from the front and back (facing the gables) but I don't like it from the drip line. Maybe it'll look better once the gutter is hung. The 1x8 rake is sq cut, as drawn in the plans, as any other way I tried made it really awkward looking to self-return the rake crown. Didn't know what else to do with it, so I built it as drawn. I'm wide open to better ideas on how to handle that for that future, BTW.
I'll try and make ya proud with the pics on Monday, but I'm no photographer. Remember the flying dormer thread? ;)View Image
yes... i loved the flying dormer threadMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
All right Mike.... better late than never. Here's some closer up shots of the exterior trim package. It's a little more complete now that we did the large main house cornerboards this week (as well as the farmer's porch). We finished up at 8pm Wednesday night.... had to start a new frame on Thursday morning. I had a couple guys back there this morning for about two hours though as we ran out of 1/4 round for the cornerboards on Wednesday and the last three exterior doors had arrived in the interim.
In some of these pics you can see how the tiny little soffit (1x4) transitions into a cap for the frieze crown on the gable ends.
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Brian:
With work like that you might as well start bidding on interior trim as well as framing.
Thanks Mike... doing the trim like that keeps it interesting. Studs and rafters can get boring after awhile. It's nice to shift gears, set up a jobsite shop, and play with the "little wood" for awhile. I really enjoy it.View Image
Good god man, thats alot of exterior trim. Is that common for your frames? I'm sure some have more than others.
If so I could get used to framing in your neck of the woods. Looks like alot of fun.
Matt
The trim package itself, isn't one I've done before.... with that double frieze and all. But the quantity is about what I've come to expect out of the higher end homes for my area. This one is a spec, believe it or not. These guys (the general contractor) really build homes that I'm proud to be a part of. They're big... sure. But they're not just a lot of fluff like the typical McMansion. They spare no expense in quality of workmanship and/or materials. I'm proud to my name on a home like that.
That being said......I've got a custom coming up in late October that'll make that trim package look ghetto. I bid the trim seperately..... and it was almost the same price as the frame! :)View Image
Hey Brian-
You're not leaving the siding guys much to do <G>
Looks real good. But I was wondering- is it normal in your area to leave the rake board long, I assume for the gutter to butt into it?
That's a detail I don't see around here.
Yep.... "gutter return" is what everyone calls it. So you don't see the gutter from the gable ends. Looks odd, IMO, square cut like it is on the main house in my pictures. But it looked even odder when I did a mockup with it trimmed to the roof pitch with the crown running on it. Besides, she had it sq cut on the drawings but I had to do the mock up just to see for myself. It looks a bit more natural the other way... there's a bunch of examples of it in other roof lines on that house if you're curious.
EDIT: We were saying the same thing about the siding.... should have just bid on that too. Coulda probably done it with about two bundles. ;)
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Edited 9/1/2007 5:51 pm ET by dieselpig
Really nice to have GC's like that, it really is. There aren't many out there.
Being proud of what you walk away from makes the job that much more worth it.
As for your photography, theres nothing to complain about. Have you seen some of my pictures? I have some room for improvement there. :)
Be sure to put more pictures up of that that you mentioned sounds really cool.
Matt
If that frame/trim package doesn't kill me.... I'll post some pics of it. ;)View Image
Some interior shots..... these don't seem to come out so well for me once the roof is sheathed and the natural light is gone. I'm not much of a photographer.... maybe Justin will come by soon and make me look like a hero though. ;)
Notice the site-built trusses in the attic. They consister of double 9 1/2" LVL rafters sitting on double 11 7/8" LVLs buried in the floor system, with double 11 7/8" collar ties which pick up some of the load from the double 16" LVL ridge beam and transfer it back out to the walls. The LVL rafters are tied to the LVL's in the floor system with sheets of 3/4" sheathing on both sides as gussets. The 3/4 passes right through the attic subfloor and extends from the bottom of the roof sheathing to the bottom of the LVLs in the floor system with a strict nailing schedule. We trimmed the sheathing with the router along the top of the rafters to make it clean and tight looking. Again.... I should have got a couple pics of these as they stood alone before the commons were filled in and the roof sheathed. Too bad I didn't have the camera that day.
That last pic in the sequence is taken from the second floor as I was laying on my back looking up at the LVLs in the floor system.
Personally.... I don't think the trusses served a whole lot of purpose. I've framed this same type of roof countless times with just a ridge board and no beam. But I don't get to engineer them. The rafters are set on a plate on the attic subfloor... not on the 2nd floor walls.
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Some more random pics of the interior, a parting shot of the exterior as I will leave it, along with a pic of a quad casement window. That quad casement is the one that was left outside (at the GC's request) for the duration of the job. I included it only for those who, like Sphere, were curious about how a window would survive installed before the frame is/was dryed in.
Now I wouldn't do that if it were my call. It's just too easy to store the dang thing somewhere else until we were ready for it. But the GC gets what the GC wants. So there it sat for the job and I too was surprised to see that other than some dust it didn't look any different then the units we installed right off the truck. Go figure.View Image
brian.... great work .. good pics
what is the purpose of the diagonal blocking on the stairwell
i can see the flat 2x4 will secure the stair horse and provide space for the gypsum
but what does the diagonal blocking do ?
View ImageMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Our inspectors want to see it as fireblocking. We basically have to fire block any height transition....ceilings, floors, roofs,etc. Staircases also fall into this category... from stringer line down is 1st floor...from stringer line up is 2nd floor... hence the diagonal blocking at the transition.
All those pics and that's what you spot?!?! LOL.... Hawkeye Smith.
Hey.... how about Clay Buckholtz? Throwing a no-hitter in his 2nd major league game. Fenway was nuts tonight!View Image
Do you have any idea how hard I searched for a picture to describe this practice of fireblocking Brian? I read about it all over the damn place, but it was never illustrated. Nice to know I"m not crazy :)Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
"Everybody wants to know what I’m on...
What I'm on? I’m on my bike, busting my ### 6 hours a day…
...What are you on?"
- Lance Armstrong
Ooops. Not quite done yet. Forgot to imbed that last series, but they're pretty boring any way.
Here's that hanging valley connection. You're looking at a pair of double 9.5" LVL valleys, a double 16" LVL ridge, and a single 18" LVL ridge. That single 18" beam is a triple 18" further along where it serves as a true ridge beam for the mixed shed and knee wall roof.
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And of course.... the final parting shot.
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do you button cap or just staple your house wrap?
If you button cap it, or black in the roofs, you need one of these:
http://www.amazon.com/TCS6832-Crossfire-Cap-Stapler/dp/B000IKNRG6/ref=sr_1_6/102-0509315-8497742?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1188851629&sr=1-6
Cost of the caps & staples are not much more if any then buying hand drives and it works slick...
my guys have only used it on one project so the experience is limited, we have 4 more houses to side before the weather turns so I should have a better idea after that.
I just use a hammer tack Neil. I'll be honest... the less I spend on installing Tyvek the better. There's no money in it for me. To an awful lot of GCs I am simply a commodity and not an assest. If I can't do the frame within their budget.... someone else will. Now, with time, I've managed to build a modest "client base" of GCs who recognize the value in the service I provide. But they are the exception and not the rule. Until then... I have to keep an eye on what I'm "giving away" and what I'm actually getting paid to do. Ultimately... its the future HO who suffers. But that's the business bro.View Image
Gunner, man you are whacked!!!!
Just giving you the heads up on the latest round of smut I've posted for ya. View Image
Nothing like good old Saturday night framing ####.
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Whale Oil Beef Hooked.
http://www.walkmoreeatless.com/
I'm always happy to pimp the smut for you G. Looks like they banned the word "p-o-r-n" today too. Who's the new moderator around here, Tipper Gore?
I wonder if you can still say poontang?View Image
Wow I didn't even notice the #### It wasn't like that last week was it? Oh well.
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Whale Oil Beef Hooked.
http://www.walkmoreeatless.com/
I'm digging up something from earlier on in the thread.
In the pic below, I notice a Bilco basement door. It surprised me to see a Bilco on a house that you say will go for well in to seven figures.
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I can see that it's on the side of the house opposite of the garage, so the only thing I can think of is that the lot lines would not allow for a full walk up (french door, concrete steps, etc.). Is the Bilco just so they can finish the basement, or am I missing something?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Bilco's are about as common on houses here as shingles on the roof Jon. I'd be more surprised if it didn't have one. It's a dead level lot... they'd have had to do some serious landscaping to turn it into a walk-out. Only time you see a walk-out around here is if you get a sloped lot that will accomodate it naturally.
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Edited 9/2/2007 11:01 pm ET by dieselpig
Why not larger over hangs? In Buffalo, 12" or larger is standard. I thought the eave ends looked short and I thought I saw a flush one.
As always, great looking job!
Why not larger overhangs?
You'd have to ask the architect on that one. The smallest ones are the ones in the pictures with the built up frieze and they're about 6" total from the house to the fascia. It's just so built up with trim and moldings that it's tough to tell. My guess is that she (the architect) was trying to stay true to the period of houses she was trying to emulate. Other than the main house, with the 6" and built up frieze, the rest of the house has all 8" and 12" overhangs.... no flush ones.View Image
That's interesting. I don't know when I saw a Bilco door around here last. They are very uncommon, and practically never seen on houses less than 30 years old.I wasn't thinking a walk-out, but a walk-up instead. It looks like the Bilco projects 7-8 feet from the foundation wall. In that space, they could have a 6' deep landing area and steps running parallel to the house. The benefits are the amount of light it lets in a basement and ease of moving furniture in.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
See, I didn't really even pick up on what you meant by "walk-up"... that's how rare they are around here. I can only remember seeing one in the past five years or so that wasn't simply a function of the lot's terrain. I agree, it'd be much nicer to look at.... just better design. But like I said, for whatever reason, it's a rare thing to see around here.
Roofing is like that around here too. Seems like 99% of houses get asphalt shingles. Most are architectural... and some nicer than others, but I rarely see a slate, wood, or metal roof around here. Copper accents are fairly common, like on that bay in the pictures, but seldom do I see a main roof that isn't asphalt shingles. It's too bad really. I guess it's like Matt (Stilletto) was saying..... in his area people like to see slate tile and granite countertops but couldn't care less about having any exterior trim on the house.
FWIW... there currently aren't any plans for finishing the basement. But in truth, I don't think it would have changed the decision anyway.
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Edited 9/3/2007 12:01 pm ET by dieselpig
Brian,
Nice work man, I mean really nice. I hadn't seen this thread until about 30 minutes ago :-).
I've got a couple of questions for you. How do you like to figure out the cuts and get the proper location for the hanging valley? Its been a few years since I did one and the jacks never came out just perfect when I calculated them. They were close enough for sheathing, but not dead on.
The trim looks great. I agree with you that it is nice to change gears. Do you find that the skills you need to do nice looking trim rub off on your framing?
You probably said this somewhere but I was drooling at the pictures :-), what kind of trim where you using? Was it Windsor One?
Last question for now, how does all that trim look after a year? Do the miters/bevels open up? We don't get to do that kind of trim around here. Ours is all the standard 5/4x square cut which seems to do better in the rain :-).
Great work man, now I wish we wouldn't have taken today off. I want to get back out there. Friday was rakewall building day and we have one more like the one in this picture http://picasaweb.google.com/TimothyUhler/Lot38Muirkirk/photo#5089044484967674386
Hi Tim, thanks for the kind words. I'll do my best to answer your questions the best that I can, but I'm not that great at describing my methods. Just ask my guys. :)
To figure my hanging valleys... I start with the larger of the two that extends up to the higher ridge. I just use the CM to get the length of it..... I use the adjusted run of the larger roof for all calcs so as to not have to make any deductions to the valley rafter and confuse myself. For locating it in the frame... on the lower end, I just find the point where the top of the HAP of the lower roof, intersects the top of the plane of the lower roof. The distance from the gable end of the upper roof to this center mark, added to the run of the upper roof tells me where to locate the center of the valley rafter on the upper ridge.
That make any sense. The other valley is cut much the same way. I use the adjusted run for the lower roof on the CM to get the valley length. I locate the lower end in the frame the same way.... and the upper end is located by making sure the first valley is straight and true and then it lands where it lands. Of course I double check by putting a tape down to the deck as this location also needs to reflect the height of the lower ridge.
This one caught me for a minute though..... that ridge transistions from a 3x LVL to a 1x LVL...... I had forgotten about how that would effect the ridge height. Everything was cut right.... but for a minute there I was up on the ladder scratching my head and wondering why the valley intersection wasn't the same height as the ridge we already had up.
Now that that is clear as mud, I'll try to answer some questions that maybe I'm a little more qualified to answer. To some degree, I'd say that trimming makes for cleaner framing practices. What it definitely does do, is make me pay more attention to the frame... because the cleaner and more accurate the framing job, the easier it is to trim out. I use as much math on my trim as I do on my roof frames. For that to work, the frame has to be pretty accurate or none of the calcs work and you end up having to just cut-to-fit. Additionally, trimming out roofs definitely helps keeps roof framing math fresh in your head. As you know, all the angles are the same, but you just have to make 'em a bit prettier. So alot of the time I'm cutting a piece of trim, I'm using my roof framing skills as much as anything else.
Yes the trim is Windsor One. Mostly 3/4.
How the trim survives after a year seems to have as much to do with what's done to it after I've left as anything else. When the painter does his job well, it makes my work look better than it really is. But crappy protection/poor paint job will make the best of trim jobs look like heck in less than a year.
In a nutshell, the miters hold up just fine if they're properly addressed after I'm gone. I do what I can, short of carrying around primer, when I'm working with it. I use titebond II on my exterior miters as I'm framing. I just keep a jug in the truck and a small squeeze bottle in my belt. What I'm really hoping for, with the glue, isn't so much to bond the wood together, but reallly what I'm hoping to do is seal up that potentially exposed grain for if/when one of those miters does expand and/or contract.
I was out there at our new job this morning for a couple hours. Two of my guys wanted to get some hours in so I set them up with the 1st floor door/window cuts sheets and gave them the plans in case they get to any walls. I've got no regrets about taking the rest of the day off though.... we've been really killing ourselves lately and I'm enjoying the downtime.
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Brian,
Thanks for getting back to me. I didn't want to take today off, but the guys did and I'm really glad we did :-). I had a late night Saturday at the DMB concert at the Gorge and then an early morning to get back to an appointment, went to bed at 12:30 and up and driving by 6:15 http://picasaweb.google.com/TimothyUhler/DaveMatthewsBandLiveAtTheGorge2007
About sealing endgrain, we started keeping some spray primer in the truck and when we build rakewalls or do any trim (preprimed spruce around here) we hit it with the primer.
By the way, in this frame we are on right now, we used some of those LVL 2x6s for the rakewall. Hardi looks crappy if there is any waviness (new word?) to the walls, so I ordered some LVL material. It is about triple the cost of dougfir, but man was it worth it. I ordered 22 or 24' material (can't remember) for the studs in the rakewall and when we lifted it, it flexed a lot less than solid sawn lumber. It looks cool too. Here is the photo album about a week out of date
http://picasaweb.google.com/TimothyUhler/Lot36Muirkirk02
I'd love to try some of that LVL or LSL stock for walls sometime. Looks like really nice stuff. Unfortunatly.... I'd get throw off the job for spending someone else's money like that! LOL.....View Image
Hi dieselpig,
Great pictures!
Very clean job! Isn't it a great feeling standing back and looking up at cut up, multi-height stick frame roof. Probably one of my favorite things, especially when it all fits in perfectly!
I know this discussion has been had before...but , do you have to block your plywood seams running your shear horizontally?
And is there any hold downs and hardware in that structure?
Out here that same house would have 100 hold downs and shear panels top to bottom.
Howie
No blocking of seams yet... but it's coming as they phase in the new code. And the only hold downs are foundation bolts, sheathing lapping from 1st to 2nd floor, and hurricane ties on rafters.View Image
Just bound this thread, Diesel. Great looking work. Very tidy work spaces, too. You're a credit to the profession. Huck said it first. I just agreed with him.
You're a credit to the profession.
Thanks very much Jim. As are you my friend. Means a lot coming from a carpenter the likes of yourself.View Image
I'm sure your back's a little sore from getting it patted so much, but let me slap it a little. Nice work, man.
We always do mitered end caps on our gutters unless they're running into a wall. I've had to deal with that rake extension detail before (rebuilding them when they've rotted off), but if the archy says do it, you gotta do it.
View Imagehttp://grantlogan.net/
"he ot the placed closed down whyyy thhhattt nnooo gooodddd" - sancho
So I'll sleep well knowing that I've given you some job security. :) There's always a silver lining.View Image
The frame and the trim look killer on this project. Is that stone wall in the front old or new? That's a pretty nice looking lot.
Who speced the rake detail with the "flying wings?" Those always strike me as odd, but sometimes it is all you can do. Are you using pine trim? Better prime the bejeezus out of that endgrain on those puppies.
Did you use the aluminum clad Jeld-Wens on this house? What do you think of those, in comparison to Andersens?
Your pictures have me jonesing to start the spec house I'll be on soon.
NICE work,
Dustin
Thanks for the compliments Dustin. The stone wall is old... very old... colonial times old. The job is in Concord, MA (start of the Revolutionary War and all) and most of this land is old farm land from that era. However this house and lot are in an existing neighborhood. The lot had an existing house on it that was torn down to build this spec. About $750,000 for the lot with the tear down. Don't even want to guess at the cost of this new one. I'd have to ball park it around 2.5 with the way these guys finish these things out.
The "flying wings", usually refered to as gutter returns were specified by the architect, as was the rest of the trim package. And the endgrain on those four returns are the only exposed endgrain on that entire exterior trim package. It was a tough call, but in the end I figured that with that much exposure, in the long run, the end grain would fair better than a 3/4" self return. I don't like exposed endgrain myself, and maybe I made the wrong call, but sometimes you gotta make a decision and live with it.
The windows are Jeld-Wen. Inside is wood, sashes are aluminum clad on the exterior, and exterior casing is 5/4x6 wood with Azek (or similar) sills. I'm just the framer, not the GC, so I don't get to spec any of this. My own personal opinion is that these are a better looking window than say an Anderson 400. But I think the overall build quality is better on the Andersons. However, both are very good windows for the money..... all just my opinion though. There are better windows available than both of those mentioned, but both are still a good value if you ask me.
Again... thanks for the compliment and good luck with your own spec. Be sure and post some pics for us.View Image
That would be a wonderful thing here..no hold downs!!
Some homes that I have built, I would guess anywhere from 5000.00 to 15,000.00 extra in hardware, material and labor. Maybe more depending on how cut up the house is.
Enjoy it while it lasts!
It's funny..Mike Smith asked in his post about the stair blocking. I would'nt have even thought to ask that question because we've always had to fire block.
I'm amazed at how different things are in other areas!
Howie
"My personal feeling is that crown in these locations tends to get lost in the busy-ness of the roof lines and the effort would be better spent elsewhere."But Brian - that crown detail has a loooooonnngg history
http://www.cartage.org.lb/en/themes/Arts/Architec/Generalities/IllustratedArchitecture/A/Architrave/ent.jpg
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Is that you posing to put up that piece of crown on that bay? I had you for a big dude (I'm not ####) not that theres anyting wrong with that. Sweet house!!! Butchered frame job!! Just kidden. You mentioned I&W shield on the roof. When I built the shop addition man I fell addicted to the stuff. The didnt have it when i was framing (they did but not many suppliers had it). I Od'd on the stuff. I gonna have the wife sew I&W for our comforter.
-Lou
No that's not me in the picture, that's my right hand man. But I'm not a whole lot bigger than him.... about the same height but about 25lb heavier.View Image
Very cool pictures, great looking house. Where's the gang cutting pictures? Tim's gonna be pissed.
World of difference between what framers do there compared to here, crown never gets used on the exterior and if it did framers wouldn't probably do it.
I haven't got to frame a house in a while, your pictures are killing me. New work is pretty much dead here.
Nice work and keep the pictures coming.
Matt
Thanks Matt... glad you like the house.
I actually don't gangcut roofs very often at all. I always gang-cut my I joists though. My BF Headcutter is just the stock one they sell.... I've found it doesn't do all that well on steeper pitches and here in New England most of our houses are 10 and 12 pitch. All in all though, I've found that while very fun, I didn't save a ton of time gang cutting. It's great for some roofs, but on cut-up ones I think it's more hassle than it's worth. The house we're finishing now for instance, has 9 different common rafters and isn't really even a 'cut-up' roof. But that's just my personal experience. I know some very good framers (like Tim) that swear by gang-cutting, so there's got to be something really good there that I'm just missing.
World of difference between what framers do there compared to here, crown never gets used on the exterior and if it did framers wouldn't probably do it.
Couple different things going on in that paragraph. Your first sentence makes a very good point that often gets forgotten in places like this forum. That's why it's so ridiculous to talk about generic or ball park sqft pricing for different areas of the country. Some guys think the grass is always greener, "oh move to New England cuz they're getting $9/ft for framing". Shoot it sounds like anybody could make money doing it then. But in reality, pricing isn't that different in most of the country when you factor in what's actually being provided for that money.... dollar for dollar and apples apples.
As far as the part about the framers not running crown out there even it was part of the house: Again that's just regional. Around here, if you want to do some of the nicer houses... then you better be decent at running trim. Same as anywhere else...... we don't get to pick which parts of the frame we'll do and won't do. If the crown runs from rake to sheathing or fascia to sheathing, then it needs to be on before the roofers get there.... that basically means that as a framer, you better be able to do it because nobody is going to call in a finish guy or a sider to do it before that roof goes on. That leaves the excavator, the concrete sub, or the framer to do it then. By default..... you've just won the honor of runnning crown. Know what I mean? View Image
I would be the crown runner by default as well. I usually roof and install siding on most of my frames.
But you guys do alot of things we don't here, crown and trim mentioned before, strapping, rafters on entire houses are also pretty rare.
We do get Tyvek duty on every house no matter what, if we are installing siding or not.
I'll agree with gunner too, great framing porn man. Keep it up.
Matt
How do you manage to do the framing, siding, and roof... but no trim? Who does the trim? Or do you mean that all of your frames are sided in vinyl?
If a GC requests that I Tyvek the frame, I'll do it. But I don't volunteer for it. You're lucky to cover wages by doing it. Usually if I wrap the house it's pretty much a throw-in. And I don't much like throw ins.View Image
Crown doesn't get used here on the exterior of the house. Maybe up in Blue's area, but not here.
90% of my frames get vinyl, and the windows already have the J-channel moulded into the window. Thank god because most people don't know how to put it on right anyway. So trim is next to nothing. Fiber cement is starting to take off here a little, but close to 30% of the time it ends up in a claim. Needing to be torn off and redone by someone else.
No one wants to pay for the nicer exterior details. They want slate tile and granite tops. I like the details you guys use on the east coast. Casing windows, sills, crown, water tables.
I can make money putting Tyvek on, but I am not going to retire on it thats for sure. We sheath the walls on the deck then roll the Tyvek out and use the uzi stapler to make it permanant. I charge the same amount the siding guys would to put it on after the walls were up.
Matt
poetry!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Just discovered this thread and your fine work. Thanks for posting the photos and giving the descriptions.
I got a little misty reading what you said about enjoying the open roof framing from inside the structure. That's always been the best, strongest emotion I've had during a custom build. At those moments I become the structure, as if my body morphs gently into it and we become one. Your description reminded me of how much I miss that experience.
Congratulations on raising the level of excellence on your crew too.
Please keep taking photos. Maybe next time you could start with the joist framing and shoot a whole series on how you frame. I'm sure I'd enjoy seeing some more of your methods and techniques.
Looks good. And I agree, it is kinda cool looking out those rafters. Maybe somebody will hire ya to do a garden structure and you can do the framing without covering it up with sheathing. I could imagine it in redwood. Be some neat shadows on the floor as you sit underneath it enjoying a cold beverage.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner, liberty is a well armed lamb protesting the vote." -- Benjamin Franklin
Brian- just went thru this thread.
Nice work. I bet the rockers and trimmers who follow you must kiss your feet.
Its obvious you have a lot of pride in your wirk.
But what's this about being too busy to make NorthFest?? Doesn't having a crew mean the boss can slack off every once in a while?
I bet the rockers and trimmers who follow you must kiss your feet.
I doubt it bro. Just doing my job is all.
Regarding Northfest... I coulda taken the time, but truth is I was just too beat and need my down time to recuperate a bit. Must be getting old, but by Friday when I'm about 55 hours in....... I'm beat. So I coulda taken the time and gone up there, but probably would have spent the weekend sleeping in a corner somewhere.
I shook the crew up real good late this past spring. Brought in some new help and cut out some of the old. The crew I've got now is the best I've ever worked with or on and I'm loving it. We really had a chance to gel on this house and find a good groove and see where everyone's strengths and weaknesses are and work around them accordingly. I'm just really into it right now and didn't want to rock the boat.
My wife and I have a short trip planned for our anniversary next month though.... so a little R&R is on the horizon.View Image
I've got to say, Brian. You make it look easy.
Beautiful work...my trimwork doesn't look as neat as your framing buddy!Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
"Everybody wants to know what I’m on...
What I'm on? I’m on my bike, busting my ### 6 hours a day…
...What are you on?"
- Lance Armstrong
Just caught your post.... thanks Justin. Houses like that are fun and they let you seperate yourself a tiny bit from the rest of the pack.View Image
They're a joy to frame and always make me smile when I look up at the sky through one that's finished but not yet sheathed. Sometimes I'm actually bummed when it's time to cover some of the framing up with sheathing.
You know diesel, that says a lot about you and why you do what you do so well. There is a little magic in standing back and saying "I (we) did that". It exemplifies what I call "the heart of a craftsman".... a trait that many here share in their areas of expertice.
You do good work, my friend, and it shows.
PJ
Everything will be okay in the end. If it's not okay, it's not the end.
Framing is a ball PJ. I always say to my guys that if you don't really enjoy framing, then get out now. (Not like "GET OUT!, but more like "get out while you still can") It's too much work and it's too aggravating if you don't really enjoy it. Besides, the business end of it sucks azz.
But yeah, I'm not afraid to say that I stand back and admire my own work occasionally. Why not? I'm proud of it. That's one of the best things about framing. It's so easy to see the fruits of your labor.... even just from one day to the next. Besides... I'm still learning and suspect that I always will be. So there's still a lot of fun in doing something for the first time.... or having something come out even better this time than the last time. Know what I mean?View Image
Cool pictures, nice job. To crop pictures in irfanview, just draw a box around the part (hold down the left mouse button starting in a corner and drag. Then, press [ctrl] Y.
Thanks for the cropping lesson. Just tried it out!View Image
Gonna try some close ups. Hope no framing sins pop into view! ;)
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Nice looking frame there!
I am jonesing for a house been doing commercial for about 5 months now, houses are slow around here.
Hell, at least im on a cool trim job. Need help, I want to frame, miss it, love it. Thionking you could teach me a bunch too.
jeremyThe bad news is you've done exactly the right things to be exactly where you are today.
"IdahoDon 1/31/07"
Brian,
Real nice job as always; thanks for sharing.
I'm going to guess that the reason the pics you post look a little sketchy might be that you are taking very high resolution photos with your camera and that down sizing them makes them looks that way.
If you lower the resolution on your camera, you may not notice the pixelation as much when you down size.
Like I said, just a guess.
Eric[email protected]
Cool, that could be it... I'll look into it. Thanks E.View Image
dieselpig,
impressively nice work, (even if it is a stick built home (big ol' grin!) Oh and you use the wrong brand of Forklift.. (another big 'ol grin)
Surprisingly enough.... I'll concede both points to you Frenchy. Timberframing is a wonderful craft while stick framing is more of a skill set. And I'm well aware that money on a forklift could be better spent than on a CAT.
That make your day, or what? ;)View Image
dieselpig,
Ohhh, I'm Having a heart attack! Shock! pain! the light is getting dimm..
Yeh! That makes my day! Thanxs
As for timberframing.. do it for yourself man, The woods darn cheap if you go direct to a sawmill. and the tools can be purchased for 1/2 list on E bay
The skills required aren't great! If I can do it anybody can do it and much better than I did (I'm sure)
As for my comment about Cat, Since Ingersol Rand let me go I shouldn't be loyal to them but here's the really interesting part. Of all the forklifts I've sold IR is head and shoulders the best for framers. (how's that for a testament?)
Yes, next time around I will look much harder at an IR machine now that I've located a dealer reasonably close to me. And my problems aren't just with the machine itself.... my dealer/service provider is a large part of the problem. But I digress.
I'd love to try timber framing some time. In fact I've said for the past 5 or 6 years now.... that if I knew, when I was 18, that I was to become a carpenter, I would have chosen to be either a timber framer or a cabinet/furniture maker. See, I just sort of ended up being a framer. I don't really know how it happened, although I am glad that it did.
As far as trying it out for myself.... well..... I haven't the time, money, or motivation to do it at this stage of my life. Amateur astronomy is my hobby Frenchy. You know why? Because it's the exact opposite of what I do for a living. It's quiet, peaceful, involves stillness and patience, and is done sitting down for the most part! The last thing I want as a hobby is another form of framing! LOL...View Image
dieselpig,
I completely understand that approach to a hobby.. I liked my hobby so much I went into business doing it.. then suddenly I had no hobby and no other interest to fill up my time.
However you can approach timberframing from the quiet sitting down method..
All The Amish and Mennonites around here do their timberframing with hand tools. usually sitting down ;-) the real trick is to learn how to sharpen tools.. Once you've mastered that, the art of timberframing becomes a nice quiet art best practiced sitting around the fire stove. Only the quiet whisper of a sharp plane slicing off a thin shaving to allow you to fit that tenon into the mortise pocket with a satisfying ssshhhhthunk!
It doesn't take as long as you'd think.. Typically the way it goes is after the chores are all done, out in the barn they sit around during the winter making all the connections. In the summer after planting is done they all get together for a raising.. We have telehandlers to do what a gang of strong farmers do so the raising is about the only noisy day involved.. Afterwards don't forget to put the traditional offering to mother nature by nailing a pine bough on the peak.. I didn't and I regret it to this day!
I think for the purpose of discussing a budget , you could figure on spending about $5000 for the timber required for a typical sized home. If you went the way of hand tools another $500. you ought to be able to get all the specialty tools used.
I've probably got around $4-5000 invested in new specailty timberframing tools but shortly I'll be listing them on E Bay for 1/2 of what they cost new.
Now back to your cat dealer. Iworked for Caterpiller for 7 1/2 years and I understand what's happening to them. Basically the old machinery dealer is dead.. Instead it's a new multinational conglomerate that maximises profit..
Very little of their equipment is American made anymore and they effectively broke the power the unions once had so they have very few people they need to listen to..
There are only two absolutely sure ways of making a profit in the business world.. First own a Coca-Cola franchise or second own a Caterpillar franchise.. Both are protected territories, both are well established names that are capable of selling whatever they want.
I don't know a single Caterpillar dealer who doesn't own at least one private jet. The business is absolutely going to make money.. actually more when construction turns down than when people are buying new equipment. Their profit center comes from parts and service, not from the sale of equipment..
You're pretty well tied up with them.. Oh sure there are will-fit companies out there selling aftermarket parts for Cat, but their mechanics have little training and often take far longer to diagnose and solve a problem than the factory trained mechanics do so there is no real incentive to use them..