What’s the best wood for divided light window sashes – tough enough for the harshest elements and stable enough for the narrow dividers.
I’m in the midwest, if that makes a difference.
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KD Ponderosa Pine
T. Jeffery Clarke
Thanx Jeff
Mohagany
V.G. Fir (have to bow my head when I say that) will work at least as well as Ponderosa Pine and some folks think it looks a lot better. It is trickier to mill though, especially edge profiles.
I wonder if the note I posted here earlier this afternoon will show up in another thread, or what.
Why do you have to bow your head? And what does the V.G. stand for? Should I be asking this? Should I bow my head? So many questions - I'm all confused.
BTW, They're getting painted so I don't think grain "appearance" is an issue.
Mahogony caught me by surprise. I always thought of it as an interior trim and furniture wood. And pricey. Oh man, pricey - I mean like kah-cheeennng. Realy? Mahogony? What's V.G.? Why am I bowing?
Ponderosa pine sounds, if anything, a lot less complicated.
What about Scandanavian Lumpur? Naw, I just made that one up.
Can I stop bowing now?
Mahogany is fine, but generally a lot harder to work with for small pieces like muntins. Spanish cedar might be a better choice, but both are more difficult to finish due to bleed-through. Also, extractives in mahogany and cedar might interfere with adhesion of standard window putty. Can't go wrong with a good grade of fine-grained pine.
VG = Vertical grain.
Ponderosa Pine Link: Click here
Wood Window fabrication Link:Click here
T. Jeffery Clarke
Quidvis Recte Factum Quamvis Humile Praeclarum
Edited 7/23/2002 11:00:56 PM ET by Jeff Clarke
My responses are not getting posted properly anyone know who to talk to about that.
Thanks for the links Jeff. I bookmarked them so I can take my time later and browse through their sites. That's the kind of stuff that makes this Internet thingy such a great resource. That, and trades forums! ;)
Peace -
Can I post this now?
Fir.
V.G. - vertical grain - if you look at the end of the board, the dark winter grain is perpendicular to the faces of the board, this makes for uniform swelling and contraction as the lumber moves with seasonal humidity changes.
I bow because for me it's a religous experience to even think about V.G. Fir (have to bow my head when I say that). It's by far my favorite wood, strong, straight, stable, beautiful...and it's getting hard to find, at any price. I have a small stash of V.G. Western Red Cedar left and a slightly larger cache of V.G. Fir (have to bow my head when I say that)
Paint grade? Yeah, that would be an excellent use of Ponderosa Pine <g>.
Don't fret about that Mahogany, either. Piffin's from New England. They do things...well, that is to say, they have strange...well, um...they have certain TRADITIONS unique to that area.
Brinkmann for president in '04
I have never seen movable mahoganny sash. Mahoganny is use a lot in comercial work. The windows I was talking about on my "strange tools on your Truck " post were made in Maine, installed in PA. The house was a residence built in a commercial design. 2" x 8" TGI Studs ( what a bitch ), bearing and partition walls, even the closets, with Brick veneer outside . Mahoganny has proprties similiar to cedar, for water resistance. I helped build a mahoganny deck once. Nice but hard. Predrilling and countersinking sucked!
Edited 7/24/2002 11:21:51 AM ET by Edgar76b
Yeah, I was just poking a little fun at Piffin. I bet Mahogany would make great sash - I know they use it a lot in fine wooden boats, and it's hard to imagine a harsher environment than that.
On a serious note - I think you have to be carefull using the term "Mahogany" nowdays and realize there are many different types of wood within that species. I don't know how much their structural and decay resistance properties vary, but their appearance can vary dramatically, depending on what exactly it is and where it came from. But I haven't worked with any of it enough to have any opinions.
Brinkmann for president in '04
I've worked with Mohagany, VGFir, and pine for sashes, double hung and casements aa well as fixed.
The pine is by far the easiest to work with and will be the first to rot unless very well sealed and maintained but lots of old tight clear pine is still working in houses over a hundred years old here on the coast. In windows that get a lot of operation, it will wear groves in the sash from the sliding action because it is that soft. For a first time window project, it is maybe your best bet to avoid a lot of frustration.
Mohagany (true Honduras - not from the south pacific imitation stuff they make luan out of - the difference in workability and in longevity under exposure is large. The luan grade is porous and wicks up water like red oak) is a hard wood but not that hard to work with. sharp blades and a dust mask and you're in. Prices can vary widely. The wood is extremely stable and weatherable. I barely notice it swell in the humid summers when all the other doors need a plane. The extractives do make it hard to seal. You'll need to prime seal the muntins well before setting the glazing or watch it bleed for a couple years.
I use a lot of FG Fir for railings and decks because it is strong and resists rot with the resins it contains. Those same resins can make it hard to paint though. What I would have a hard time with is the milling of fine details and joining the muntins because it splinters so easily. I've sliced up my paws on fir more than any other wood splinters and get tired of finding myself almost finished some three or four step molding in fir and having it throw a splinter, only to start out again.
Jim, Wish I'd been here to enjoy your leg pulling - I'll get yours someday - I promise!
;)Excellence is its own reward!
I climb cut a lot of times when milling fir. Dangerous, but it works because the bit is cutting on the in stroke, instead of on the out stroke where it gets behind the grain. Definately not the easiest wood to put an edge profile on.
Just bid a job this morning, house full of single panel fir doors with fir craftsman style door and window trim. I rennovated the same house 4 years ago and last month the place caught fire. What a mess. Big job, hope I get it.
Brinkmann for president in '04
I had pretty good results making casement windows, jambs, and sills for one customers home out of old growth cypress. It has a nice tight, straight grain, machines well, and has some natural resistance to bugs.
Just my two cents.TCW Specialists in Custom Remodeling.
old growth if you can find it but new has too much wandering grain and splintering too. Pallet stock!
Excellence is its own reward!
I put in my vote for cypress as well. Whenever I have someone wanting any exterior millwork done, I always spec cypress. For me, it mills like a dream, it gives me crisp edges and is easy on blades and bits. However, it along with any other wood, needs to be dry when you start working with it. some dealers down here will try to sell stuff that wasn't dried properly.
Ugh
scares me, and I'm fearless
Just a side note on cyprus and redwood. I saw an add for recycled redwood and cyprus, which was originally used for water towers. IT was a philia. number. I bet that would make some nice kitchens. The wood stays intact because it stays wet.
I once read that the cedar ,Which was used for shakes on, Independance Hall. Was dredged from a bog in New Jersey. All of the old growth Cedar, which was once plentiful, was gone by the late 1700's. So they discovered these 600 year old cedars which were perfectly preserved underwater. They mined them and milled them. Everybody lived happily ever after.
Sounds like fun! A photo record will be nice.Excellence is its own reward!
Guess I shouldn't ask ya 'bout drivin' Fords and sidewinders then. ;o)
Yeah, sidewinders, F*rds, Bostich guns, strapped ceilings, siding walls after they're vertical, New Englanders...that kind of stuff all goes pretty well together.
"...give me room, lots of room, and the twinklin' stars above...don't fence me in..." or something like that.
Brinkmann for president in '04
I agree. Truly old growth vertical grain (for those who don't know) Douglas fir has pretty good rot resistance. A lot of the original homesteaders out here where I grew up, split it for shakes and picket wire fences. Some of that stuff is still solid today if you scrape the moss and cooties off of it.
How do you plan to secure the thermal units in the sash? How thick is that sash, 1+3/8"? Have you discussed glass, and overall glazing thickness with a glass shop?
I think you're right to avoid steam bending if you can. If this is going to be painted, I'd try to bandsaw those top and bottom rails from glued up or solid stock, depending on the overall width.
I don't know if they grade Ponderosa Pine to V.G. or not, but look at a couple 2x12s, or 1x10s tomorrow. You can often rip V.G. sections from the outer edge of these wide boards (hey, don't tell everybody about that though, okay? We can't be tellin' all our tricks).
That looks like a cool project. I'd love to do something like that. Keep us posted, will you?
I'll get the glass from Torstenson Glass, most likely with argon and low-e. I don't think 1+3/8 will be thick enough so I'll probably have to go more like 1+3/4. I'm thinking of using silicone to seat them, points to secure them, then regular putty on the outside. Am I on the right track?
Is framing lumber ponderosa pine? I look at that stuff an I see dry rot happening before I get a chance to leave town. What would you do to prevent it.
Also, I'll use polyurethane glue for those mortises.
I have plenty of time to plan this one out. I have two basement remodels to trim out before I get to this one. I 'll keep you postsd though. Your right - It will be a pretty cool project.
Be sure to ask the glass company if the IG seals are compatible with silicone?
Some IG sealants fail when installed with silicone...check specs and mfg.suggestions for bedding the IG.
If you ever have to replace one of the IG panels you will not be happy with the time required to maul away the set silicone.
.........................Iron Helix
Yeah, Iron Helix is right. And make sure to ask your glass dealer if you can use glazing putty with their thermal seal. I'm not sure why, but we can't here. I like wood stops better anyway, but I can see why some people prefer putty on certain window styles.
Seems like there's not gonna be much meat left to those glazing dividers (muntins?) if you rabbet them each side. That or they will have to be pretty heavy looking - carefully scaled drawings would be a must for me.
I've never seen Ponderosa Pine graded for framing. I'm not sure it's well suited for that strength wise. I buy maybe 1,000bf/year #2 Ponderosa Pine for making some products we sell, but I have to go to a hardwood dealer to get it. Most lumberyards around here stock 1x in various widths.
1+3/4"? So I guess you'll be starting with 8/4 rough stock? I tried and tried, and couldn't find a supplier of 8/4 Ponderosa Pine here in the Great Northwest. I have to use 8/4 pattern grade Sugar Pine to get stock that thick, and that wouldn't be very well suited for millwork - too soft. That's not to say you won't be able to find what you need though. One of the things I keep learning on the internet is how different things are in different parts of this continent. But that would be the clincher for me, I'd use Douglas Fir.
Brinkmann for president in '04
Edited 7/24/2002 10:30:05 AM ET by jim blodgett
Edited 7/24/2002 10:32:41 AM ET by jim blodgett