Scene: Forth meeting with Client and Arch.
Why: To finalize contract terms.
Re: $135,000 Job.
Client: We are very impressed with your grasp of the project and would like one last thing from you before we sign.
Arch: We would like 3 references.
Frankie: Pardon me?
Arch: We would like 3 references.
Frankie: I’m so glad you brought that up. I wanted to, but felt awkward. I too would like 3 references from each of you. After all, I am going to depend on you ( turning to Client) for my income duing the next 2 1/2 months, and you (turning to Arch) for a certain standard of architectural design ability and fluidity.
Blank Stares.
Frankie: See, the two of you got my name from an Arch. with whom I have worked with on 4 jobs, 1 of which was published (7 page spread w/ credits) in Traditional Home magazine. I don’t know you, aside from the past 2 months, at all. You called my office and I came. Thus far I have been operating under an assumption of trust. But, it seems as though this doesn’t count for much, so… I’m sure you can see how my request is just as appropriate as yours.
More Blank Stares.
Arch: Frankie, I think you misunderstood the reason for our request. Mr. and Mrs. Client are going to be turning over their apartment to you and your crews fo the next few months. An apartment I don’t think I need to remind you is their home and worth over $1.5 million.
Frankie: I don’t think you could have made your point any clearer. After so much effort, it’s ashame everything didn’t work out. Thank you for your concideration.
Am I jadded or what? I wanted to go into how I never advertise, never asked for their business, and for every referral I provide, I have to somehow reciprocate. Reciprocating 3 times on a lousy $135K job is too expensive. And WHY is it okay for Clients and Arch’s to vet me, but not me them? Pretty one sided don’t you think? What would you do?
New Policy: Next time I am asked for a reference I will also ask for one.
Replies
I probably woulda just supplied the three references.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
frankie.. you been watchin too many soprano reruns..
good story though.... lessee....ten years ago .. i probably wudda done like you.. now.. i think i'd make a game outta it..
obviously i already got these guys.. they're mine.. i'd probably smile and say.. sure but it's gonna take awhile , because i gotta get releases from my clients.. of something.. give 'em some wiggle room.. let 'em contemplate their navels er something..
i mean.. EVERYONE knows the references come 1st.. not at this late stage of the game.... sounds like 1 of the 3 ( there were 3 people besides you , right ) needs some reassurance.. and the other two are running interference for the 3d...
here's the downside.... you are about to throw away 20 to 40 hours of your life that you have already invested... i'd walk away if i thought these guys were jerks and they were going to play games to deny me a profit... but the 3 references.... eh ?
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
...obviously i already got these guys.. they're mine.. i'd probably smile and say.. sure but it's gonna take awhile , because i gotta get releases from my clients.. of something.. give 'em some wiggle room.. let 'em contemplate their navels er something..
I agree with the above. Obviously, we would "all" like to do as you did, but this is business. You got to learn how to take it out from the "personal" realm, unless they get personal. Asking for references is not personal - again, it's business.
Can you have a chat with my boss (the guy who dosn't have the word NO in his vocabulary)?
This has nothing to do with personal. I am motivated by improving my BUSINESS . Maybe I was not clear enough in my initial post. Please reconcider the following:
1. I WAS referred to them by an Arch. with whom I have worked with 4 times. They did not get my name out of the Yellow Pages. Then, I would understand.
2. I do not know the Clients and have no proof of their ability to pay. They are not securing a bank loan, etc.
3. Many of the details of the design still are not complete. This will be done after we execute some probes into the walls, figure out the actual route for the new electrical riser, find out if the concrete block walls are solid or not,... I have given allowances for these items but the Arch still has some work to be done which is not about looks but rather about how the bldg is put together.
4. I worked with them for 2 1/2 months and submitted a document - the Estimate/ Proposal and finally the Agreement which states in detail what the Scope of Work is. Unfortunatley, I have not submitted this for your review but suffice it to say that it is pretty comprehensive.
5. How many referals is enough? Can we agree that a $1 million project would warrant more than a $100K project? So if a $1K project requires 4 referals then how many referals should I be prepared to provide a $1 million project?
6. I get along with most of my Clients and am refered to their friends regularly - 50% of my business. Most are also very private and would not like me to give out their phone #. So it means I have to schedule a phone appointment for them ( new and old clients) to talk. I have done this twice and it was a logistical nightmare. One of the two times the new client was then unavailable when the call was placed.
7. As I stated in my previous post, referals cost. I have learned NOTHING in this life is free. It may mean I have to come out on a Saturday night when I am getting ready to go to a movie with my girlfriend to change a light bulb before the Cient's dinner party. This has happened and I am happy to do it. But don't kid yourself that this made things even. Now multiply by 3 or 4... per job.
8. These freebies - regardless of wether I am changing a lamp or hanging a painting or trouble shooting their CATV system or replacing a blownout dimmer before a party - takes time, whether scheduled or unscheduled. Changing a lamp ( the simplest of what's mentioned above) took 2 1/2 hrs of MY TIME though I was only in their apartment for 10 min.
9. One last point which no one has addressed yet. I don't mind being vetted by the Arch or the Client. But how do we vet the C/ A? If the interviews are not enough for them why should it be for us? What professions do you know of that when the job is completed the Client/ Purchaser has what they want AND still owes the Provider/ Seller money? I can't go to the market for a 25 cent pack of gum and say send me an invoice and after I look at it I'll send you a check. Or an Auto Dealer, Or most hospitals ( got to show proof of insurance before you're even admitted), Or Burger World. Restaurants are slightly different. You get to eat your food before you pay but don't think they will let you leave.
Okay, now I'm done.
I agree with most of your points Frankie, and I think that the "turnabout" you tried could indeed have been fair play. I think the only mistake you made... from the sounds of it, and I could be misreading... is that you got defensive/insulted. At least the architects reaction (as you describe it in your first post) would seem to indicate that it was taken that way... even if it wasn't intended. It is definitely late in the game, from the sounds of it, for either of you to be talking about references etc. That would be very, very frustrating to be on the receiving end of. (Congratulations for resisting the temptation to throttle the arch! :) How well did the client's architect know the referring architect? If they didn't know each other well, the referral could have suffered a loss of credibility. Anyway, sounds like overall you felt like the hassle was more than the job and the customer was worth and in the end... it's your call. No point in second guessing yourself. My hunch is that they'll come back to you.
Brian_____________________________HomeBase________ Kitchen & Bath Builders, LLC
Brian Roberts, Manager
Frankie,
sound like a bit O' fun ya had, but next time, get those references earlier............
In the first meeting, ya walk around, talk about their house....."oh, this looks nice, who did that?" And "Nice pool, who put it in for you?" "your lawn looks great, who do you use?"
And then ya call those contractors and get your information. Check prior permits and call the holders. The guys that got screwed will keep ya on the phone venting and the guys that got left standing at the altar will mumble their regrets. Also, ya can check what causes of action they have been a party to and whether they filed it or were the defendant. If ya have to ask the Owner, well, ya ain't doing your homework.
And after four meetings, meybe they had you pegged for a blow-up-type-of-guy and you just failed the final exam. Better for them to find out now how sensitive you are now rather than after ya have their 1.5 mil apartment dismembered.............
Or better yet, after you have it mostly put back together and they decide they don't like the design and it's your fault, because they or their architect couldn't make a mistake.
Looing at it from a homeowners point of view, that came across as being pretty arrogant.
BTW - Seems like the 4th meeting, to finalize contract terms, is pretty late for ANYBODY to be asking for referrences, isn't it?
If ya wanna know about the HO, ask around quietly for people that know them. But throw something out there in front of them that's completely out of line with the accepted norm, then walk when they don't instantly comply, and your reputation will soon reflect your attitude towards the customers.
If you want something that unusual, you'd better let them know up front, at your first meeting.
I like you. That's why I'm going to kill you last. -- Arnold in Commando
BINGO! The 4th and last meeting is the wrong place for THEM to hit me with this request. I had been very professional, polite and accomodating up to that point. They were late for every appointment, asked for more numbers on additional work rather than providing a comprehensive design package ( like what they were expecting from me) and always treated me as their servant.
Deep down I did not want to work with them and it took this episode for me to come to terms with it. The blowing up was not so extreme but was intended to provide shock value. Do not lead me on for 2 1/2 months and then hold me to a different criterior than I can hold you.
Funny you should mention my attitude toward the customer. I just got off the phone with the Arch who referred me and he apologized to me for it. Now I have (and probably had) a reputation for not tolerating being PLAYED with.
But, getting back to the original intent of the original post: How many referals and when? AND how do we, as contractors, qualify the C and A's? Asking their friends "quietly" is unrealistic. I do not travel in those high faluting social circles. I do "interview" the elevator man and porters of the bldg, but most are very tight lipped or will only say the vaguest nice comment.
I find it hard to believe that you would have to arrange some type of schedule in order for the clients to have a phone conversation with each other. If they are that disfunctional I wouldn't be working for them, probably due to the fact that they wouldn't like me very much after I stopped laughing at them.
"Deep down I did not want to work with them and it took this episode for me to come to terms with it. "
While I was reading this thread, that was exactly what I was thinking from the beginning. Esp. the part about going through all the hassle for a $130,000 job. I wasn't getting why providing three references would take more than 5-10 minutes of your time. Let them set up the appointments. But, if you didn't want the job, I can see using at a stepping out point. You'll probably be glad you bailed, and it sounds like you've got plenty of work anyhow. I know we've turned down jobs based mostly on gut feelings about the customers, and most of the time we were right. Life's pretty short to work for people that are a pain if you don't have to.
Jim
At an earlier time in my career, I'd have bent over backwards to let a client know how competent I was. But having had too many rich people hold my feet to the fire, and worked with a few architects who knew nothing about construction and expected me to do their work for them, I'm with you all the way.
If it hasn't come up by then, I normally ask a prospective client how they got my name close to the end of our first meeting. If they say it was from my advertising (phone book listing only), I attend the second meeting with references in hand. However, I get few of those jobs, because I'm expensive. I have a small book of pictures, and 2-3 customers for whom I've done repeated work, and have developed a fairly friendly relationship. And they know that, for the favor of talking on the phone to new customers, they'll get the kind of on-the-spot service you describe.
I have the rural version of a similar client base as yours. When I explain to some "gentleman rancher" who lives 6 miles down gravel roads from any main road, and another 1/2 mile past a locked gate, that he can't see most of my best work because it's on gated property, he normally understands. If they're so self-centered that they can't accept that, I consider it a bad headache neatly avoided.
Mac
Frankie, The thread I just read prior to yours was Andy Clifford's post about winning a court judgment (Just won a court case). So I was perfectly primed about people shafting contractors out of a few bucks.
My reaction to what you wrote was "dam straight".
How many contractors here would have avoided the anguish of not getting paid, going to court or barely escaping misery with the client from hell if they could have talked with three contractors the potential clients have previously worked with.
As society is set up right now we'd go hungry if we required references from our clients for every job (unless the name of your business is This Old House). However I don't think it's unreasonable to ask the Arch for references, not of clients but contractors. That's the person that could make or break a job.
Scott R.
I like what you did. I think that after four meetings, when everyone is ready to sign, it's a little late to say, "oh, we just need three references". You could have said, "oh, by the way, I just need a certified check for $45,000". If they haven't asked for references before this point, what do they want them for? Blow them off, they're nuts.
Whenever I finish a job that I believe would make for a good reference, I make certain to get the permission of the homeowner to use them as such in the future. I retain all of my previous clients information which I categorize for future use. (i. e. kitchens, baths, decks, whole house renovations, etc.) Along with the coverletter accompanying my estimate is a list of four or five referals of clients whos jobs were similar to the one I`m bidding. I dont increase or decrease the number of referals depending on the size of the job. If the potential client requests more, I gladly supply them. Prior to my submitting my estimate for aproval, I drop a quick phone call to any of the referals and give them a heads up about the possible inquisition. It is usually through the course of bidding the job that I attempt to assess whether or not a good working relationship is possible with the potential client.
It sounds to me as though you were getting a few red flags throughout your intercourse, and used this as the out. You probably did the right thing. But I wonder, when you call another to have work done for yourself, do you not request some form of referal? And how would you react if that person asked for referals of you?J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
Frankie,
I'm with you all the way, especially regarding your statement about the client having a completed job and then deciding wether or not they are going to pay you or not . Few things in this life can be obtained on that basis. I don't know for sure but it sounds like you have gained (thru experience) an ability to "size up the customer" which isn't always fully developed until several meetings have taken place. I know I have learned a lot along this line although sometimes I still get fooled by clients (not often though). I do agree that it was rude and one-sided for them to ask for references given the circumstances you have laid out. You are definitely better off without them as I think they would have given you no end of trouble. There has to be some element of trust for the contractor/client relationship to work properly and it seems in this case there was none. Good luck.
Mark
Frankie ..... Similar happened to me once , I was stunned , when asked at a late date for references all I could say was "oh thank you , I almost forgot , I allways exchange reference's with new client"s. we can do so at your convience. " Nothing was ever said after that. I think the da'n fools eat sh't and chase bunny rabbits.
I applaud your abilty to place them on a level footing , too many people have the attitude of thinking that goalposts can be moved at such a late stage , personally I would still bill them for your time spent at meetings and getting your bid together , 40 hours or so that it takes to go through the b.s. of bringing this bid together ought to be accounted for by them in monetary terms.......(but thats just me.....& I wouldn"t bat an eyelid in making that bill full n fat !)
troll
My solution Is this, Upon completing a job, I ask the client if they are comfortable with providing a letter of recommendation. If they need help(most don't as they are businessmen) I provided them with needed information. This way I can nip this in the bud. I keep these references in a binder with similar references from my bank, suppliers, licensees, and insurance records. I have a resume' that is the first page that references most of these people. I explain that I respect my client privacy, am if the following information is not sufficient, they can go elsewhere. Most people have underlying fears of there privacy, and this has been very helpful in my opinion to ease that fear although it is never discussed. We invade peoples homes and become part of there life for a significant amount of time. It way past time to ask for this information, but I would provide it. You did the right thing, stick to your guns.
David
Well said of a smart business man, and "smart" because of what you do. In other words, address a known anticipated problem to prevent it from becoming a "problem."
my wife has worked in the architecture biz off and on for almost 25 years, doing virtually every job in the office but actual architecture- from project assistant as a teenager to marketing director of the biggest firm in a major city. she'll tell you that with the possible exceptions of doctors and lawyers, no field has more arrogant anal orifices than architecture. (she has a few very close friends but a great many probably cannot safely cross the street in front of any vehicle she's piloting) and the clients with their $1.5 mil apartment? you think they think their dung don't stink either? certainly they're all above reproach, but a lowly contractor?
my dad, who owned his own small general contracting biz for forty years, woulda told them both to go screw themselves, too.
give 'em hell
mitch
All I can say is Good for you.
Dude why didnt ya say "Yea that would be no problem..Oh by the way since I dont know you I need to run a credit check on you to make sure you can afford to pay me. Just to make sure there arent any mechanics liens judgements ect against you.
At Darkworks Customer satisfaction Job One..Yea yea were all over it , I got my best guys on it.........