What’s my problem? Latex and brush marks
Wife is using Benjamin Moore interior Semi-gloss latex trim paint on our window sashes (interior face).
Painting over well sanded oil-based (Ben Moore Fresh Start) primer.
Using a good Purdy brush, the kind specifically for Latex paint.
Using Floetrol to instructions on bottle. Paint is well-shaken, stirred, and strained through a disposable paint strainer.
Painting outside in the shade, in our garage with doors open. Weather has been between 60-75 degrees, 70% or so relative humidity.
NOW
Doesn’t matter what she does she’s got brush marks. Normally an excellent painter, so I don’t know if it’s her technique or not.
My suspicions of what’s causing the brush marks, and hopefully someone can confirm or deny them:
1. Paint is too old. The can is about a year old and has been opened and closed quite a bit. Solution: New Paint
OR
2. Brush is too old and/or worn out. The brush is about 2 years old and has been used fairly well. Has always been well cleaned with water, soap, and a brush comb. Bristles feel soft and pliant. Soultion: New Brush
OR
3. Maybe wifey’s put in too much Floetrol. I secretly suspect that she may be thinking that if a little’s good then a lot must be better. (She doesn’t read this forum) Would too much Floetrol cause brush marks? Solution: New paint and less Floetrol.
OR
4. Temperature/Humidity problem. If this is the case, then we’re hosed because this is the best weather we’ll have all year.
Anyone have any suggestions where to begin?
Replies
buy a pint of new paint and try it on scrap to see if it fixes it.
if not, then buy a new brush and try again with the new paint. if its fixed then that was the issue.
If not then buy a fresh pint and you, not the wife, add the floetrol and see if that works.
Paint should be fine at temps above 50 degrees. You could also try thinning the paint a little, probably 1 oz water per gal but I doubt viscosity is your issue, most likely new paint and new brush is the fix. For latex- synthetic brush for oil based then natural is the way to go. Use a good primer and not too much pressure on the brush etc.
Just to get you started:
You say you sanded the primer? Never heard of that. But that shouldn't have any effect on whether there are brush marks.
Most of the time older brushes are fine--unless it is really worn out or nor cleaned well and bristles are stiff or stuck together.
Doesn't seem like paint is that old either--I think you'd notice it was thick and gloppy and not brushing out well right away. Floetrol is supposed to reduce brush marks.
You could try not using Floetrol, but I doubt that's the problem (of course, if it's already been added, you are sort of stuck with it). You could try a new brush and see if that helps. Purdy makes good brushes, so the quality by itself isn't the problem.
Is wife using sash brush? That may help (sort of oval and a little softer than regular brushes), but most of the time I just use and angled bristle brush and have good luck. Maybe a second coat will help?
See what other people say--maybe aske at your paint store--especially abouty the age of the paint.
Could be a 1) paint problem or 2) applicator problem.. I use SW paints and lately they've been fond of "re-formulating" all their paints. Thus, the stuff I was used to, I ain't.
Specifically, I've found that their A-100 (exterior) semis now have a TERRIBLE flow capacity. No brush under any circumstance will get you a smooth finish. And, moreover, adding floetrol seems to actually make the problem worse.
I switched to their Super-Paint.. Much better results.
Could be your paint...could be the floetrol. You'll have to experiment.
(BTW, latex paints--vs. oils--are notorious for being difficult to work with a brush.)
The first thing I would do is thin the paint. Floetrol doesn't really thin the paint , it makes it flow better up to a point. If the paint won't flow, 99% of the time it's because it is too thick.
Do what you have to do. It should be leveling itself out before your eyes. If you don't see that happening almost immediately, the paint is too thick.
Opening and exposing paint several times to air thickens it up in a hurry.
I would vote for this answer from Bojangles to be addressed first - the paint's probably a little dehydrated and needs a shot to bring it back.
Something that wasn't mentioned were the over-night temperatures: it's all well and good that the mid-day air temperature gets up to sixty; but, that trim has been sitting out there in the shade after a cold night and a cold winter. Sometimes a quick pass with a hair-dryer (a heat gun would be over-kill) ½ hour before the paint will get off any residual chill and surface moisture and really improve the outcome.
<!----><!----> <!---->
Phill Giles<!----><!---->
The Unionville Woodwright<!----><!---->
it is latex
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You get brush marks because its latex and you're using a brush. Simple as that. Theres no way to 100% avoid it, no matter how good you are, think you are, or wish you were. Best chance at minimizing it is heavy coat, don't touch it after you lay it out, and move fast. Everyone wants to smooth smooth smooth with a brush. It works against you in the long run. Practice getting an even coat in just a couple of passes. One lays it out, the second is the tips flagging the surface. Leave it alone and let it level after that.
That being said, my opinion is that painters, even more so than carpenters, have their own mystique regarding just how to do just about anything. You can line up 5 guys at your local store and ask them what brush, what tip whatever, for the exact same thing with the exact same paint and get 5 different "guaranteed the best" answers. My second opinion is finding what works for you trumps any other advice you can get.
In this case, you have a brush, you don't like the end result. Rent an airless.
Real trucks dont have sparkplugs
Too much air circulating.
It's drying too quickly.
Close the doors.
[email protected]
Technique:
ALWAYS brush from new section into just painted section. I always start at the right side of the wall (because I'm right handed) and draw the brush from mid chest out to the right. This helps insure you are painting into a wet edge.
If that ain't it....
dunno
Troy Sprout
Socialism in general has a record of failure so blatant that only an intellectual could ignore or evade it."
-- Thomas Sowell
In addition to what Hack said, make sure she avoids the temptation to back over the finished area . Keep a wet edge and leave the finished stuff alone. Whenever I teach a new guy to paint they always seem to want to do one more final pass over the whole thing.
Bruce
"The can is about a year old and has been opened and closed quite a bit. "
Make sure she is using a cut bucket and not painting from the can.
Jeff
Edited 4/1/2007 10:47 pm ET by Jeff_Clarke
I just have to ask, why did you strain the paint? Were there clumps forming in it? If so, then the paint is most likely the culprit. If you've been working out of the can, the paint has been exposed to a lot of air and will cure much faster from now on.
I've never used a paint strainer. I don't understand what they're for. I don't get debris in the gallon since I work out of a cut bucket and once the paint starts to set up in the can, which only happens when there's a small amount in the bottom, it's time for a new gallon.
Since you're using B-M anyway, try their Satin Impervo latex. It has almost as much sheen as the semi-gloss, adheres better (it's 100% acrylic), comes out of the can a little thinner and self-levels a little better. I use this stuff effectively without Floetrol.
I did some subbibg for a GC who demanded every can of paint/primer/whatever be strained prior to use. Ever try straining a five gallon bucket of thick latex in the middle of winter? (He would consolidate paints into one container.) I made a mess of that, for sure. The strainer clogged with debris half way thru. Hey, when you hold on to paint as long as he did, straining makes sense.
I admit, though, that was one of the few times I strained paint. And hopefully the last.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
I think Impervo can make a good painter out of almost anybody!
I ALWAYS USE OIL BASED TRIM ON WOODWORK. IF IT IS NOT AVAILABLE IN YOUR
AREA, MIX FLOTROL IN YOUR LATEX PAINT. IT WORKS WONDERS
Take a drop of Floetrol on the tip of your finger and use it on the capslock key on your keyboard to see if it fixes that
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I just painted some sashes with Ben Moore's Dulamel (oil-based). It came out awesome and I am by no means a painter. You get the brush marks as you apply (of course) but the flow on this stuff is impressive.
Lotsa good suggestions so far.
If none of it works try a new wife.
:
:
:
Just kidding, I'm sure she's a keeper
Thanks for all of the good advice, gentlemen. Yes, wifey's a keeper, and usually a fantastic painter which is why this problem has us so confounded.I know that oil on the interior would be a better choice, but the way we're doing our projects, we're only painting one maybe two windows or thier casings at a time and we'd be spending more time cleaning brushes than painting. It's hard enough to get moving with latex, oil is just too much work.All in all, we're satisfied with latex on the trim so far. She's been using a thin foam roller for the flat portions of the trim and the results are good enough for us. We did start using the Satin B-M paint, but we really wanted a little more cleanability with the semi-gloss. We can definitely tell a difference between the two after 9 months in the bathroom and the Semi-Gloss looks much better.I think what we're going to try this weekend is a new quart of paint. I know she shouldn't paint out of the can, but what can a guy do? So that may have our paint a little too dry. Combined with drying a little too fast, and I'll bet that's the problem.
Yeah, the foam roller's the way to go. You can get rollers in several sizes and handle most profiles with that, using the brush to get the corners, then going over it with the roller.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Rubbermaid makes a small gray squarish cut pail. I felt a little crazy paying money for a cut pail, but I've really grown to like it and have mostly broken my paint from the can habit. It fits my hand nicely, is small enough I don't lose circulation in my fingers from the wire on a gallon can but it still holds enough for a fair amount of cutting, and the sides are straightened a bit making it easy to wipe off one edge of the brush. It has a blue snap on lid like most rubbermaid containers so it can be easily sealed for a few days between projects. Perhaps she'd like something like this well enough to keep the can sealed. I think I bought mine at Lowes.
I've read that a fabric softener solution refreshes old brushes. Something about replacing oils in the bristles so the paint flows off them easily. Haven't tried that one yet.
I'm surprised no one has asked what you mean by brush marks.
Are these streaks in the paint or visable high and low spots?
What color is the paint?
Uhh... I don't know how to better describe. They are up and down rows in the paint where the brush brushed. The color is Dove White.
The question was: Are the "brush marks" due to physical variation in the thickness/height of the paint (you can see/feel ridges on the dried paint), or due to an apparent color variation -- a kind of marbled or candy-striped appearance?Most of the above answers have presumed the first case (physical ridges), and the advice would be somewhat different (eg, mix the paint better, make sure brush is clean and dry, get fresh paint) if you have the second case.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
I have painted lots of things white in my life. Most common problem is not brush strokes but a gray streaky finish that is only cured buy applying more paint. Duron has a nice "one coat white" that looks great after the third coat.
Too much flotrol would cause coverage problems, not brush mark problems. In actual practice, it's hard to get too much flotrol - quite a bit of leeway on those directions. I vary it depending on circumstances.
Problem is more likely to be in the paint itself, as others have suggested.
It was easier for me to get a new wife when things like this happen. Best regards, Dale Buchanan