I’m a relatively new homeowner, and I bought a moneypit. Needless to say, I’ll be working on this house for years to come. Now I know that a circular saw is probably the most handy tool to have on a jobsite, and I already own two (one for good cutting one for demolition).
My real question is what is the second most useful tool to get. I’ve thought about this for some time and keep waffling. Is it a good compound sliding miter saw? Is it a table saw?, is it a radial arm saw? (I’m not going to be moving it to different job sites, since I’m a desk jockey engineer). I’ve also been wondering about brands for the aforementioned tools. What brands are best bang for buck? Dewalt Comp/sliding, Delta tablesaw, ryobi, bosch, Craftsman(cringe), Rigid? So many choices and so little info for the layperson.
I’m not opposed to buying good tools, because I take care of them.
Thanks in advance!
Jeff from somewhere in Northeast MA
Replies
Your BRAIN, and that is a serious answer.
But more specific to the tools that you listed I have to ask a question about what kind of projects that in plan on doing in the next year or two.
Woody Allen used to say that his brain was his second-favorite organ. And this guy is asking about his tool?
That sounds like something my grandfather would say... and he'd be right!
Well, the projects include completely reframing the first floor joists (severe termite damage with failed joists and main beam), installing a new center beam, putting on an addition off the back which will probably entail replacing the existing back foundation wall, and a ton of interior floor plan mods.
The house was built in 1855 and was originally a folk Victorian farmhouse (greek revival, new england style?) It's lost almost all of it's former glory, so my soon to be wife and I are going to put it back.
When I think about it, i can probably do 90% of the work with the tools I already have. (how's that for using the brain)
thanks
Jeff
With the description you give, sawzall.
How's your selection of hand tools? You can dump a boatload on everthing you "need". Not just carpentry but masonry, plaster/drywall etc. Ladders and other staging for your rebuild process.
I think then would be a mitresaw, you be the chooser but the slider would be good. Hitachi I am familiar with, very good. Used the big dewalt on a job, impressive.
Router for laminate, cabinet and trimwork.
With straight edges or shoot boards, the circular saw (if good ) should get you by, not getting a table saw. The smaller rips, adjustments to stock, jamb extensions are pretty much the job for a table saw, I own the Bosch 10" portable and am quite satisfied. It does small and large work. Good power and finesse in one package.
Good shop vac that you can hook up power and suckwise to many of these tools. Working in a live-in house can get a bit messy, not that the vac will prevent it, but it should help.
Power plane you can use to plane what you rip, fine tune edgework and door fitting. Hand plane if you want quiet and the old way.
A hole hog is the t*ts for wiring if you plan on doing that too.
You probably already have drill motors, corded and non.
Good levels, not the dimestore plastic kind. 24" and 48"
Later in life add a few specialty items and buy a van and you have a way to supplement your retirement income.
Above all, learn how to use these tools before you plug them in. All are dangerous and tend to have a mind of their own. Those of us in the trade usually hear about the cord winding up on a drill and near ripping off a body part long before we see it try to happen to the one in our hand. A shop safety class or some such thing if available might just keep all your parts where they belong. Keeping things from happening is better than reacting to something after the fact. Best of luck.
__________________________________________
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Cordless drill
bobl Volo Non Voleo Joe's BT Forum cheat sheet
What is the 2nd most useful tool to YOU? In other words, what good is a miter saw, if you aren't close to doing trim yet? For the reno/repair projects you have upcoming, is there a need for a table saw at all?
I'd lay out my projects, develop a priority list for each, a listing of tools you'll need for each project, then you can start deciding which tool is right for you at the time. Let the projects be your excuse to become a tool junkie like most of us.
Based soley on the information presented? A shop vac.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
Shop vac if ya want to stay married,
miter saw
sawlzall
cordless drill/impact
lets not forget the tape measure hehehehe
If you are using a circular saw for demolition THEN I would say the most useful tool for you would be a sawzall!! Geez I hope you are not cutting 2x4s in place with your skill saw? If that sucker binds on you yeooowch!
OK,
Here's the complete list of tools on hand:
shop vac - 2circular saw (corded) - 2reciprocating saw - 1air compressor - 1jig saws - 2drills (corded) - 3drills (cordless) - 2Circular Saw (cordless) - 1laminate cutter - 1palm nailer - 1framing nailer - 1/2 (dad owns the other half)Ladder 24' extension - 1 on loanchain saw - 1
Now that I look at what I own in print, I wonder if I'm out of my mind asking what tool to by next. I really should be using more of the tools I already own and more effectively instead of buying new ones.
Jeff
Well, guess I should have waited and read your have list. What other surprises you gonna spring on us?
__________________________________________
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Looks like a compound miter saw and a table saw would be necessary for the life changing experience you are about to endure. And a versatile tool: a handgrinder with sanding disc attachment.
Then you got a slew of the non-priority stuff that...well...you could tell someone they are necessary.
Router and table.Belt Sander.Orbital Disc Sander.Electric Hand Planer.Trim Nailer Gun.Roofing Nailer so you can save on renting one and use is as a marker to pull in when you need a tool or a hand sometime after you lend it out to friends.
Edited 2/26/2003 2:00:37 PM ET by rez
"life changing experience you are about to endure. "
Oh, that would explain why I wake up with the cold sweats! Hahaha!
There must have been some craziness in my celtic geneology, because once I start posting pictures to this forum, you'll all be saying I'm crazy taking this on.
additions to the list:
various hand sawsbench grindervisefiles, raspsmechanical tools (gotta keep the truck working)landscaping tools
I've got more stuff then my father did at my age. That's a bit scary!
:-)
J
Ya but going in you'll be forearmed.
But actually the battle has already begun in this planning stage.
As a fellow laborer, Truthfully, the guys that post around here are perhaps going to be your biggest asset. Every war has generals and you being the foot soldier will do well to heed instructions.
Weapon of choice: Milwaukee 'the ax' footlong sawzall blade. They make a inch deep, or so, one but not everyone carries it. The 3/4 inch one will do ok.
Oh ya, if you don't already have a digital camera it's time to go and get one. Those pics of your 'question of the moment' will speak volumes to the posters here and help you get more accurate answers.
Edited 2/26/2003 11:34:56 AM ET by rez
...crazy for taking this on? ROAR!
Brother you've come to the right company, and Welcome To Breaktime.
WOW! What a beauty! :-)
Just wait... I'm getting a digital camera (maybe I'll borrow one for the weekend)... After those pictures, I'm feeling a bit better, but I'll let you folks be the judge of the work to be done.
Lots of potential and it is liveable (for now). Also neat little outbuilding that has turned into the Tool Box and Lumber storage area.
Words just aren't doing it justice... I'll get pics.
Termite damage to repair, full mechanicals to relocate and replace (city sewer and city water work to be done) conversion to gas in the future, change from old steam system to CI radiator forced hot water. complete remodel inside and out. asbestos shingles on the exterior, remove chimney and put up new one in addition. add staircase, relocate driveway.
just a short list, but I'll be looking to all of you folks to give advice on how to organize it in the near future.
Thanks in advance,
J
BTW, is that charred wood on the farthest stud in the rafter photo?
Yep, there was a house fire way back and they used the useable wood that wasn't too charred up in other areas of the building.
I'd rather deal with that than termites tho'.
I couldn't believe what i found under the interior drywall and lathe. 2x6s were too short for the already low pitched roof so they nailed on short legths of 2x4s to bridge the several inch gap. That was all. Scared me and I'm fearless.
I did a thread a while back called 'dozerhouse salvage' that dealt with old house repair. If you did a search on 'dozerhouse' it should come up.
Table Saw.
Don't cringe on the Craftsman. Best advice is scan the want ads on Saturday AM or Sunday. Go with cash in hand. You can get some fine hardware pretty cheap.
I'm of the opinion that you can get more mileage out of a standard belt driven tablesaw with a cast iron top. With that you can be cutting plywood, ripping trim, and even cutting masonry (using a grit blade) . I ask you, would you put a grit blade on a delta or general cabinet saw? Probably not, as it may hurt something including your sensibilities. Tools are meant to be used. It doesn't sound like you are a collector. Craftsman at least has parts you can find without taking a week of searching.
Time will come to trade up to a fancy cabinet saw but til then you need a straighter rip than a skil saw can deliver.
Now any brand will do. but avoid plastic parts. Jack of all trades and master of none - you got a problem with that?
First, I'll second the idea of not using a circular saw for demo. Not only is it dangerous, circular saws of any design basically can't get out of their own way around existing structure. If you're lucky, there may be a few places where the circular can be used on subfloor (set the depth with care), but for structural members, fuggedaboudit. How good is that recip saw you have? I'm doing something similar to your job, and I bought a super sawzall even though I had inherited a craftsman recip. Budget a small fortune for blades, too.
The other thing nobody has mentioned so far given the heavy structural stuff you're doing is bottle jacks. The heavy lifting can't be done without them, but once you have a couple, you'll find a lot of lighter tasks that are way far easier both sweat wise and logistically if you use the jack instead of swinging long lever arms around. I have Norco's from a company called Otto Service, you can google them. Their web page has a lot of good info. Figure a 20 ton for the big stuff, and their little 2 ton for convenience in the tight places, you can probably get both for something near $200. Scrounge up some steel plates to spread the load, and some cribbing, too. And of course, be careful.
Pushing is a good thing to be able to do, and so is pulling. So add a couple come-alongs to the list, say a 1 ton and a 2 ton, maybe $75 for both. They make tasks like moving heavy beams around in the crawl space easy, though slow.
Clamps -- you can never have too many.
Another thought: Get some good big casters and throw together a plywood roll-around cabinet to move all this stuff from task to task around the house.
Good luck!
-- J.S.
You are right about OTTO. I bought four 20Ton screw jacks for a grist mill restoration from them. I had to lift the entire roof and (3 levels)floor load off the main beam to replace the basement posts. Screw jacks are wonderful ,but heavy, additions to your tool cache. It pays to go to a real source.
By the way, in answer to this thread, I don't know exactly how many tools I now have after 30 years of accumulation, but every one of them qualifies as my second most important tool. A tool has a purpose (sometimes many ) and when you need it, you just have to go out and get it.
Just to satisfy my own curiosity, how many tools do most of have...if we could get a real tally?
Sounds like you're gonna have too much fun.
You've gotten some good advice. I'd add that with all the demo you have coming up, get a good selection of pry bars. Crow bar, flat bar, cats claw, ect. Fairly cheap tools, lots of uses in demo. A small handheld 3-4lb. sledge is very useful also. May find you want a full-sized one at times also. Some wide masonry type chisels may also be in order. Most tools you'll realize you need when you need them. Not having them will force you to be more creative.
The advice to buy a cheap old craftsman saw made a lot of sense to me. Use it for all the rough beater type work. Later if you're doing furniture type stuff you can unload it, probably for the same money (free use) and buy a good saw.
If possible, cut or pull the nails and remove boards intact. Wear gloves, eye protection, ear muffs if using power tools, and have a ball. Demo work is fun.
DO NOT buy roybi or craftsmen power tools, mind as well throw the money away.
View ImageGo Jayhawks
I started my DIY work a couple of years ago, and have formed some opinions about tools. As some have said, buy the tools you need for the jobs you plan to do. I started out with all the basic tools as 20+ y/o black and deckers, and gradually have replaced these with new and better versions. For me, a good drill driver that stands up on its own base is #1. I also have a good corded drill. If it has one of those side handles, use it, especially with any bit over 1". I'm sure everyone here can share a story about a bit binding up at full power. Actually, be especially careful when replacing any tool with a newer more powerful model. I tried using the PC circular saw like the B&D, and went through 2 ft of 3/4 ply in the time I expected to be about 2 inches into the sheet. A shop vac with a couple of extra hoses is nice. Putting a hose on the outflow side and sticking it out a window does reduce the annoying noise. If you can only get one major power tool, make it a tablesaw. It is much easier to do chop saw tasks on a tablesaw than it is to fo tablesaw tasks on a chop saw. But if you *need* both, a $250 model of both is better than a $500 model of either.
As for handtools, buy the best you can for those tools you'll use alot, but don't discount getting a cheapo model for infrequent use. I bought a cheapo 16" bolt cutter, have used it way more than I had intended, and it still shows no sign of wear. I also love those offset wiggle screwdrivers, especially for anything electrical. A small LED style headlamp (Petzyl) is great for working in tight spaces.
Ironically, I thought the sawzall would be the least used tool, and it has actually been one of the most used in many situations where I never even expected to use it. Trust me, it is a much friendlier tool high up in a tree than a chainsaw.
I disagree on the Ryobi tools. I have a $20 6V drill-driver (hee hee on the latter) which I take to the top of the 28 ft ladder. I will cry less when I drop it than I would when the makita falls 20 ft onto the driveway.
One tool which I have found absolutely useless and overhyped is the rotozip. For the life of me I can't cut a straight line with it, and the rather expensive bits seem to dull in no time. Sure, it can replace a bunch of tools, but if you already have those tools, it doesn't add much
Rotozip cant replace the tools it suggests it can in the add, the best thing it can be used for is triming drywall around door openings and windows. I also have used it cut out sink cutouts in cement board with a 1/4 carbide bit.
If your burning out bits in DW you probably have the bit sticking to far out, it only needs to be about 1/4 - 1/2 inch past the depth of the drywall.View ImageGo Jayhawks
Great list.
Couple of refinements. Blades for the sawsall or the sabresaw(does anyone use them anymore?) I always get the milwaukee blades. They are made of hardened teeth with a tough steel back. It makes a tremendous difference. The blades last 5 times longer than the cheapies and they don't break or bend as often.
Ryobi circular sander I bought has worn off 3 of the hook side of the hook and loop pads. That thing will last longer than I will.
Now the rotozip... I'm borrowing one and I gotta say it is the nads for cutouts on drywall. After you get the feel of the non cutting tip it will dance around the plastic boxes and make a great fit cutting out box holes. The other side of that is I've taken it apart 2 times so far to empty the drywall dust out of the rotor & windings. I don't think they designed it for cutting recessed fixture holes with the drywall almost in place. The dust goes right inside til the thing no longer turns. Great to borrow but I don't think I'd like to own one. Oh yea, it is ok on ceramic tile with the 4 dollar carbide bit.
Gotta have the table saw. You can do far more than rip and cross cut. It is my favorite work surface.Jack of all trades and master of none - you got a problem with that?
I'd skip the actual roto zip and look at other brands, dewalt, PC, and a few others make them. Best thing to do is pick up an old lamite trim router used, you can usually get then pretty cheap and its basically the same thingView ImageGo Jayhawks
Rasputin, for someone in your position, a tool reccomendation would be a good book. I'd start with Larry Haun's "The Very Efficient Carpenter." I find this book invaluable and reference it often before entering uncharted waters. Good Luck.
Regards
So tell us about your black hole - what all work do you think you'll be involved in?
My first suggestion is go to the library and check out an old movie called "The Moneypit". It's about a couple that buys a nice, old house that needs work - dealing with labor unions in new york - good movie, if you're remodeling you can't afford to rent it from blockbuster.
It is MUCH more expensive than you anticipate. MUCH MUCH just for some repetition on that one.
I was married a year ago, have worked in construction all my life mostly in project management / estimating but had remodeled one house before - mostly cosmetic w/new kitch cabs and bath fixtures. My wife owned a house while I rented, so that house is where we live. It was in the worst shape I can imagine a house in outside of the framing just being eaten away by termites or water damage. It had some structural damage.
So my strategy is I wrote up all of the projects I planned and gave them a number, and I code my receipts for mat'ls to projects as a lunch-time project. I found I couldn't keep a budget on anything because the miscellaneous and all the little things were as much $$'s as the major stuff I could estimate. I've done things right, and the way I want them done for me to live in over the next 5-7 years.
As to your tool question, every new project requires new tools -or- I upgrade old tools because time goes on and we have more money generated out of our income. We didn't want to use savings for this. So my recent goodies were upgrading the crappy tape measure I had for a nice stainless steel one. A coming-up one is a nice 6' fiberglass ladder to replace the crappy rickety wooden one I've used all along.
The biggest treat tool was a sawzall. That is one tool that increased my productivity / ease of life greatly. I highly recommend one. treat tools for me are ones that I can get done a different way - slower, more difficult, but money is a big issue for me so many things I do without the best tool.
So what i've done already:
completely replaced/ moved to different locations the furnace, air cooled condenser for A/C, hot water heater, and all ductwork. (I have HVAC experience professionally but no refrig license so had contractor braze tie-in on new ACCU)
Tapped city water main, trenched water line in, redid all plumbing (I am licensed contractor w/city water utility), took us off well
Gutted of drywall / flooring, new finishes etc. master bedroom - bedroom - existing bathroom - kitchen. Making own cabinets for kitchen. Adding 2nd bathroom.
Fixed structural damage to house from improper diy addition
still to go:
regrade lawn, put in patio & walks, it is so much work it's unreal.
I worked 2200 hours at job + 1200 hours remodeling last year. Cost has been $25k of which $7k was tools.
And it's very hard on a marriage. Shop smart for materials. Wholesalers are a lot cheaper than big box stores.
remodeler
With me being a framer, my top most useful tools would be, in order, 1) framing hammer, 2) tool belt, 3) tape measure, 4) framing nailer, and 5) circ saw. I'll explain why for a couple of them: The tool belt, while not a "tool" per se, is on my body about ten hours every day. Therefore it's got to be comfortable and has to hold a lot of junk at the same time. Now I just bought a "Cadillac" model Occidental rig, but I find it's too uncomfortable to wear every day--I've been going back to my cheapie HD-bought bags. As for the tape measure, a good Stanley Powerlock or MaxSteel is my choice for good standout, blade rigidity, and overall durability--the Fat Max just doesn't perform well enough to justify blowing 30 bucks on a 35'. The nail gun comes before the saw because I do a lot more nailing than cutting as a helper.
As for a homeowner, I would suggest buying a quality set of hand tools before exploding your wallet on all those cool power tools. Buy the power and air tools as you need them, and before you buy, think about how often you will use them in the future. E-mail me if you have questions about specific recommendations.
And as a last note, I second the reply about buying Larry Haun's book "The Very Efficient Carpenter." It is by far the best all-in-one framing book I have read. Also Haun's book "Carpentry" is excellent for general knowledge.
thanks... I'm looking up the book as I'm writing this.
J
R. Just a comment on most useful tool . A whole lot of years ago I asked a man that was in charge of 11 framing crews what tool could I invest in to make the most money with, he reached into his shirt pocket and handed me an ink pen
What's the best 2nd tool? Without sounding silly, how about a good hammer as the first.
My dad always said the framers best friend is a nail puller. No offense meant to framers. Everyone that uses a hammer makes mistakes. So a nail puller may be a good second tool.
My favorite remodeling tool is a sawzall. After 30 years in construction (mostly in remodeling) it's the one tool that makes me grunt like Tim Taylor. In the hands of a skilled craftman, a "reciprocating" saw can do just about anything
Somewhere along the line, consider adding a Fein multi-tool/detail sander to your tool stable; a great remodeling finish/touch up/multipurpose device that I've found invaluable at times.
On the Supersawzall...a DIY friend of mine painted his camouflage, put a shoulder strap on it and packs it like an assault weapon.
If you lived near me, there's a number of other tools and equipment I could HIGHLY recommend and when you got them, I'd 'road test' them for you and make sure they were broken in properly and then have you come over so I could demonstrate the proper use of them (while I finished up the projects I had 'tested' them on). :-)