If anyone will care to answer with their opinion it would be greatly appreciated.
I’m sure this question has been asked before but I’m gonna try to be very specific as to what I want.
Estimating software. I want a good software product for an el cheapo price. Sound impossible? Well I dunno. I don’t want to pay $295 for estimating software that tells me a ton of things I could care less about. To me it seems there must be a very economical software product that will do bare bones estimating. When I say bare bones I mean, I plug in dimensions of a room, tell it what to estimate (drywall, electrical, etc) and churns out a rough figure cost based on my geographic area. Churning out with it a schedule of materials would indeed be nice but my goal here is strictly COSTS.
Reason I’m asking for this is because in the past I’ve been charging really low rates because I want the business to build a base of customers and projects. My estimating has been less than desirable it seems. I want to now get it more in line with what I should really be charging to support myself, my family and health insurance, etc, and it is my assumption an estimator will have built in approximate hard and soft costs so we can still eat, drive our cars and go to the doctor when necessary, oh an keep a roof over our heads, too 😉
I don’t want this software to be complicated (if this then that or if that then this). KISS is the goal. Any opinions are more than appreciated.
Replies
RSMeans has a square foot estimating book, also avail on cd. Probably in your budget. It would work for rough estimates, but you're better of with a detailed take-off of materials and labor.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Pyroman - "Estimating software. I want a good software product for an el cheapo price. Sound impossible?
I don't know Pyroman, but that sounds very similar to a homeowner/customer saying I want a a good kitchen remodel for an "el cheapo" price. you should know what that means and what that often leads to too.
"I don't want to pay $295 for estimating software that tells me a ton of things I could care less about."
A ton of things you could care less about? For instance what? I find that sort of interesting to hear in that that's the opposite of what I would want. I want or would want what I refer to as "fractal depth". If a computer program was tell me that I should charge $1225 to install a door I would want to know why. I would want to see that broken down into labor and material component(s). And I would want to be able to see the breakdown of how the labor number was produced too (Time X Labor Rate). And that is just the bare minimum in my estimation. I really also want to know how the Labor Rate was achieved to judge it veracity and accuracy.
"To me it seems there must be a very economical software product that will do bare bones estimating. When I say bare bones I mean, I plug in dimensions of a room, tell it what to estimate (drywall, electrical, etc) and churns out a rough figure cost based on my geographic area.Churning out with it a schedule of materials would indeed be nice but my goal here is strictly COSTS."
What you are describing there may seem like bare bones to you but to the programmer that's actually incredibly complicated. And you want that "el cheapo"?
There are a two programs I can think of that do that or sort of do that (plug in dimensions of a room > tell it what to estimate > churns out a rough figure) but they certainly aren't cheapo. There's CadEstimator (Cadest .com) but it runs $1295.00 for the program, $400 for a regional cost database, and $50 per quarterly update. And there is Xactimate from Xactware which is the de facto standard in the insurance contracting field. (Check out the Xactimate for Remodelers product tour). It costs $58 per seat per month so that will run you $698 per year.
"Reason I'm asking for this is because in the past I've been charging really low rates because I want the business to build a base of customers and projects."
Do you really know what the rate you really should be charging is?
I want to now get it more in line with what I should really be charging to support myself, my family and health insurance, etc,...
Did you by any chance download the PROOF Style Markup Excel Worksheet I posted a link to the other week?
A Microsoft Excel Spreadsheet
(Windows & Macintosh) Version 8
"...and it is my assumption an estimator will have built in approximate hard and soft costs so we can still eat, drive our cars and go to the doctor when necessary, oh an keep a roof over our heads, too ;)"
Unfortunately, that's not necessarily the case. The data you get from a costbook or an estimating database is still always going to be subjective relative to you own real costs and also to interpretation of exactly just what the creator of the database meant when creating the database entry. In other words what does a data entry that says
Install a Pre-Hung Architectural Door .842 labor hours/$71.60 labor/ $239.00 materials mean?
What is you interpretation of "Architectural Door". To me it means it's a typical stock raised panel. It's more complex than a simple flush door but not a custom door. It could mean something else entirely to you or to someone else.
.842 Labor Hours; What's that cover? What's that mean to you? Does that include moving the door from your truck to the location where it going to be installed? Does it include installing the lockset? Does it include installing the door trim? Not to me. That's just for the very specific task of installing that bare bones door unit. But again different companies will find different numbers that work for their crews and or procedures.
$71.60 labor; what about that number? Where did that come from? It came from .842 x $85.00 which might be okay for a contractor in NY but way way to high for a contractor in Texas.
Same thing for $239.00 materials, that's the cost for a 2'-8"x6'-8" Pine Morgan M-1053 door the last time I bought one. Is that the same price you pay where you are?
Do you see what I'm getting at?
"I don't want this software to be complicated (if this then that or if that then this). KISS is the goal. Any opinions are more than appreciated."
But it has to be like that otherwise it's just not going to be accurate for your particular circumstances!
Just for grins take a look at the estimating software I designed and tell me what you think of it. While it's preloaded so to speak with data making it "really work" for the specific individual company means entering the data for that company's own labor costs and then changing the material costs to the costs that company actually really pays for your materials too. My hunch is you going to feel it way too complicated but I'd be very interested in getting you feedback on it for just that reason. Since the program it was written in (FileMaker) just came out with a new version I plan to remodel the software I wrote in the next few months to take advantage of the new features in Filemaker 7 so I'd be interested in getting your feed back on what you think I might do to simplify my program if it really needs any simplification. 360-Trade Contractor Estimating 2.1
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Gotta be honest here Jerrald...I have always viewed your posts as lengthy and verbose...but this one is excellent. I have always been bothered when this type of question is posted and the responses are "use your experience." Obviously, if the poster had decent experience he wouldn't have asked the question. So, in fairness to the poster, I like to provide a bit of information about an available book or cd.
However, I was struck by the comments in the original post, like cheap, easy, and, best of all, plug in sf and the program does all the rest. That's like people who think Autocad ( or similar) can draw a set of plans if you just give the room sizes etc. Makes you wonder if the poster has any clue as to how an estimating program works. Again, good answer.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Got to be honest here too Ed,... I've never been able to think and as a result talk or write in just little tiny sound bites (bytes) so certainly there's no offense taken. You should see what write that I don't actually post in these forums.
Anyway I thought you statement "you're better of with a detailed take-off of materials and labor." was right on the money.
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pyro.... the estimating software is one part of the equation..you say you want to start making money.. well..
the estimating software is just like a horse.. you can lead him to water , but you can't make him drink
IE: suppose you get very accurate at estimating your labor HOURS..
AND you accurately apply all of your LABOR BURDEN
and your hard costs of material are RIGHT on..
and you get fixed bids form your SUBS on all of the SUBCONTRACT portions.. ok?
you have now identified your costs.. but that is only a portion of the problem of how to make money..
now you have to apply
CONTINGENCY
OVERHEAD
& PROFIT
and you have to convince yourself
( you have to SELL yourself )
that this is the CORRECT price for your PROPOSAL
then you have to actually go out and SELL this to your customer.. when you can do this. you will start to make money..
and actually.... the ESTIMATING part is not the obstacle to making money... the SELLING a job at a PROFIT part is the true secret
anyways.. it only took me about 25 years to figure that out.. here it is for you in 60 seconds.. good luck !
but hey, whadda i no ?
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, I appreciate your comments and welcome them. Much of what you said I somewhat knew by things I've read in the past. Indeed you're right, the estimate is a part of the pie, but I also know if you're too far off you can live and die by an estimate if you forgot something, or it's so out of whack for some reason.
In my opinion the heart of any estimate is EXPERIENCE. I'll loose a lot of money if I say it takes 2 hrs to demo a wall when it takes a day, obviously there is 6 or 8 hrs labor I didn't estimate. Too many of those mistakes and I'll be looking for a gov't handout later :)
My struggle is this. I'm a one man operation at present. Very low overhead at the moment because I have a day job with benefits by my employer. In my area replacing a 200amp sub they're getting anywhere from $1600 to $1800 a pop. That' the big guys. Materials generally run me around $300 for a typical no-fuss replacement of a 200amp panel and $50 inspection fee. Should I charge what the big guys charge and pocket the fat profit to use to invest in my biz or save it to carry me thru tough times when I make the break from my employer? or should I lower that price since I have so little overhead and charge around $1200? Now this example has little to do with estimating, I've done enough panels and had variations in issues that I know pretty much how much time and cost is involved.
As to my estimating post, I wanted something simple. For example, I just got a nice sized job drywall hang/finish a 30' x 30' basement with 9' ceilings to be drywalled also. In the job I'm boxing out a trunk line have few outside corners and 2 windows that will be drywall trimmed. It's not hard to estimate that job per se because I've done it so much I know how much time it'll take, etc. But it'd be nice to just plug in the measurements, maybe click on a checkbox that says I"m doing the ceiling also, maybe another box for adding windows that are drywall trimmed or something, adn get a rough base figure as to how much I expect to charge. A place where I can enter a percent factor for profit would be nice, also, such as say add 30% to the final total which will cover overhead, blah blah blah, I"m sure youknow what I mean. If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
Hometech has their database online for a subscription fee. The whole program on your PC is about $750 but you can subscribe for ( It's been awhile since I had the subscription so I'm not sure ) about 15 - 19 buck a month.
It is object/assembly based..
Could be your best beet here. It still take s time though. It won't read your mind and predict the future.
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<<<<<Should I charge what the big guys charge and pocket the fat profit to use to invest in my biz or save it to carry me thru tough times when I make the break from my employer? or should I lower that price since I have so little overhead and charge around $1200?>>>>
most of the constraints in this business come from ourselves.... if you can't sell your jobs at the going rate or HIGHER, then you'll never succeed..
your assigned task is teaching yourself how to SELL your self and your product at the rate neccessary for success... not BELOW that rate..
having estimates you are confident in is the basis... but you already know some of your costs but are still selling below market..
it hurts the market ..... but it really hurts you.. you can't leave the cocoon of your nice safe IT job until you can sell....the estimating will followMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I agree that many of the software bells & whistles are not used by most people. Look at the stuff that comes bundled on a new pc, or inside Windoew, that you don't want but are forced to buy anyway.
Materials generally run me around $300 for a typical no-fuss replacement of a 200amp panel and $50 inspection fee I'm all for growing your business. But I have to ask...aren't you a compuiter programmer by trade? Are you qualified and licensed to do electrical work, stuff beyond ceiling fans and such? Without knowing your background, this sounds like trouble brewing. You go in, grossly underbid the licensed electricians because you have no overhead, toss together a panel replacement, and get on down the road. What about liability? Are you insured? Will you be bthere next month when something goes wrong?
Sorry...this whole discussion sounds bad. I hope I'm wrong, but it has "hack" written all over it.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Mike very well said. As a newbie in running my own co. your dead on the hard part is selling the job for a profit. Its hard not to cut it short just to get the job.
WEll this may sound incredibly stupid, but....here goes. I happen to be a software programmer, that's my real job during the day, competent in VB, Cobol, Java, etc. Prob is I ain't got time to sit around and write my own estimating software when I feel confident that such a product has been produced already that will suffice fine and hopefully meet much of what I want. some of the folks on here know that I"m working to get out of IT and into my own construction/remodel biz, thus that is why I've charged lower than normal prices to build a base of solid well done projects while I work on getting sustainable and constant work flowing in, which it seems maybe that is starting to happen which is why I'm now ready to move up to make my prices more in line with standard pricing in my area.
Cheap? What all do I want to do without you ask? I don't want bells and whistles. Bells and Whistles sound really really nice in a lot of software, but in all honesty most people use software for its core purpose with little to no use of bells and whistles. Not only that you pay for all those bells/whistles. My own programming customers illustrate that same point, they ask for certain things on their screens and wind up hardly every using those things they asked for. They're just "nice to haves." For example, when I said I don't want this estimating software to tell me a bunch of stuff I don't wanna know, I refer to my past software purchases of home design software that I use for remodeling projects. This software I bought gives you a feature to insert photos and modify them, or print out preprinted forms to make cardboard models. I bought this software also a long time ago as it said it had an estimator in it for costs. Well, that was fine, except they didn't tell me that the estimator is not separate. That is you have to sit down and draw the design on the screen before it churns out costs. That takes a fair amount of time and ain't worth it.
I guess I"m asking for just a plain simple easy to use estimator, where I have my rough dimensions, a rough idea of how many lights/duplexs I'm installing, if I'm installing a main service, drywall hang/finish, etc. There is geographic software out there, I've seen it before where you enter a zip code and it uses a rough number for labor costs by trade, etc.
In the office where I work we have a simple "quick rough estimate" sheet that has some formulas behind it. You go down and checkbox things you will be doing on a given project and it assigns an estimated amount of hours per piece along with costs for that piece and a grand total. It's not a purely accurate estimate, it's rough plus or minus 20%
Yes I know estimate are at their best when crafted to each individual situation. I would be doing that, but I wanted a quick n dirty way of arriving at a base estimate figure, that's all. If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
"That is you have to sit down and draw the design on the screen before it churns out costs. That takes a fair amount of time and ain't worth it. "
Why not?
The program ios simply a tool and the more accurate the ionfo you give it, the more accurate the answwer it will give you. The kind of stuff you are requesting really does not estimate anything. It only summarizes an average of things for your area and sq ft work is the least accurate therre is. It can be a sure way to screw yourself and your customer.
What you are saying is that you want to solve a quadratic equation but don't want to provide any values for the variables, but still expect the answer to be usefull.
The means is the closest you will get, and that can be had online. It gets used by some archies to establish an overall budget for clients, and is the reason that we builders cannot meet the budget on custom work since the averages cover the millions of substandard tract houses too.
Why lower your standards so much? You want to save a few hundred bucks and a couplel days learning time and it will cost you a few thousand.
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You can't beat doing it the old fashion way, by hand. But, the point of what I consider equal importance brought up by Piffin is you learn and understand the job in the process. Whether, you're supervising the job or actually working the the job, manual estimating and the subcontrator bidding process gives an unparalled insight into the job from every perspective and on every level.Never serious, but always right.
Russ: "You can't beat doing it the old fashion way, by hand."
Nah I can't say I agree with that at all. Computerized estimating beats "doing it by hand" or what I refer to a "legal pad estimating" by a knockout. Let me reiterate that BY A KNOCKOUT! I think doing it "by hand" especially in this age of automation is just insane. As far as estimating is concerned "doing it by hand" is to "doing it by computer" what cutting rafters with a hand saw is to cutting with a circular saw.
However what I think Piffen was getting at is that the Estimating software is just a tool like a circular saw or hand saw and that the real important skill in estimating comes in the form of being able to correctly identify all the elements of a project that need to be estimated and really understanding the mechanics of just estimating is all about.
A really good circular saw isn't going to make a so so carpenter a master but having good tools certainly helps makes things easier.
In my program when I change the the cost of a 2x6 in my database it changes the cost of that 2x6 in 41 costbook line items that use that cost. Any wall roof or floor assembly or any other items using 2x6 is then therefore updated to reflect that cost change. That sure beat doing that by hand one item at a time.
If I decide that installing a simple molding for window or door casings takes .050 labor hours per foot rather than .041 labor hours per foot the 130 items in my costbook database that are based on that labor benchmark are automatically updated. Once again sure beats doing that by hand.
If I look at an estimate for a project that contains sixty different line items that we did three years ago but that I can essentially use over again for a project next month I can update it in a matter of seconds to reflect today's material prices and labor costs. Sure beats doing that by hand.
Fewer errors too.
I also think the less time I spend estimating the more time I have to better understand both what our personnel and subs are doing.
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We agree to disagree. Time savings is minimal. But job comprehension, possible identification of trouble areas and alternative suggestions from the subs, and scheduling and budget insight is much improved by manual input. In my residential business we will bid fewer than 1 project every 2 weeks and do only 8 to 10 projects a year. However, they are complicated and complex. I personally would never chance the insight of manually estimating a project. The financial and liability risks are too great, in my opinion.
For commercial projects and a few of the above I do use Primavera's, SureTrak for scheduling help, mostly to alert subs to my expectations and contractual logic.
Never serious, but always right.
Edited 4/8/2004 5:27 pm ET by Russ
Edited 4/8/2004 5:28 pm ET by Russ
Well okay we'll agree to disagree. But I don't think I could possibly disagree with you anymore than I do with what you are thinking and saying here.
"Time savings is minimal."
Huh
??? You have got to be kidding me. How can you possibly say that? I don't have the real statistics that will go back to my pre-computerized estimating days but I can anecdotally say the savings in estimating time alone are at least 8 and up to 20 times over legal pad estimating by hand and with computerized estimating we have 0% math and computational errors.
And through computer analysis, generating and looking at different estimating scenarios rapidly (differing Work Breakdown Structures), I can identify possible trouble areas much faster than with a "legal pad" process. Cost/Value engineering services then become automated and relatively easy to perform.
'In my residential business we will bid fewer than 1 project every 2 weeks and do only 8 to 10 projects a year. However, they are complicated and complex."
Listen Russ, there's really no offense or slight intended here but there is a real good chance that the projects we estimate and do are a lot more varied and complex (many different unique one-of-a-kind elements) than what your doing since we also do trade shows, museum exhibits and themed environment work as well as building theatrical scenery and we can estimate and plan for them a lot faster, easier and accurately with the aid of our computerized systems. In fact my whole inspiration for developing our own systems was to handle that kind of complexity and diversity. Freeing the estimator up from the mundane and repetitive tasks of manual computations and writing out by hand RFQs RFIs and RFPs as well as having a source of easily referenced historical cost data allows the estimator to concentrate and devote their estimating time to the areas that really need more attention.
re:"The financial and liability risks are too great, in my opinion. "
What financial and liability risks are you talking about? The risk of possible math and computational errors should be completely eliminated by computerized estimating. ( I say should be in that I seen many contractors using Excel workbooks where they haven't properly protected cells containing formulas from modification but in really well designed spreadsheet with the protection on that certainly doesn't happen). The risk of error due to over looking something or using the wrong quantity because you have freed up more time for reflection and review that was once used up performing computations.
Computers reduce transcription errors. Copying and pasting a figure from a trade contractors quote that has been emailed to you and pasting that into a line on a spreadsheet or cell in a database reduces the chance of error that you might have misplacing a decimal point that you can get from reading a fax (possibly even a handwritten fax) and writing that number down. Humans make errors, computers don't.
There is also something about presenting a well prepared computerized estimate to a client that helps overcome sales objections to price. If they see that the number was selected from a well prepared costbook database they are less likely to argue with it than with what they see as a subjectively prepared legal pad estimate. I see a sub that submits a bid via a legal pad and right away I instinctively think the price is negotiable and I'm not the only contractor I know who thinks that.
You use Primavera SureTrak for project management but want to estimate by hand? That's sort of a conundrum wouldn't you say. I've never seen anyone approcah their company's systems computerization quite that way before.
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I think I understand what Russ might be sayuing about minimal timesavings. (You were right BTW about what I meant that you clarified above. I would hate to do an estimate on anything other than the most basic job with paper and pen)
But for those of us who only do one or two estimates a month, The actuall time spent on an estimate is much less than the old way, but the overall time invested in learning and updating the program and its database and modifying it all and keeping the PC up is an over the poverhead cost that for me, doubles the estimating time, with the result that net time spent on an estimate is not much different, though I also include in my estimating time all those phone calls to subs and chatting about the waether...
So if I did twenty estimates a month, the nbet estimating time would be far less
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Piffen "But for those of us who only do one or two estimates a month, The actually time spent on an estimate is much less than the old way, but the overall time invested in learning and updating the program and its database and modifying it all and keeping the PC up is an over the poverhead cost that for me, doubles the estimating time,"
Well it certainly shouldn't. As for time invested in learning the program you spend maybe on average 40 hours learning to use a estimating program and then use that program for years. You amortize the cost of learning over the lifetime of the program's use. It's not a reoccurring expense.
As for updating and modifying the items in the actual database I know at least with our system that that time in minimal if not negligible. Using Purchase Orders and RFQs we spot the items that have changed in the database and make the changes to just those items. We don't build a whole new list of material costs every single time we do an estimate which is what you would have to do in a "legal pad" estimating system.
While I don't really know that much about the HomeTech system anymore (in fact some of what I know has come from you) but from what I've been able to figure out about it it not relational at all. You have to change every item in it's database cell by cell. Correct me if I am wrong but if you decide it takes x.xxx labor hours to hang a prehung interior door instead of y.yyy labor hours not only do you have to individually change the labor hours in each individual line item in the core database that is based on hanging a pre-hung interior door you also have to individually change the Labor Cost too in each one of those items too. While in real life Labor Costs are driven by changes in productivity rates (Labor Cost = Labor Rate x Productivity ) in HomeTech those changes are not parametrically linked.
Which brings a question to mind. if you give everyone in your company a raise and you change a Burdened Labor Rate from $45 per hour to $49 per hour will all the items in their costbook parametrically change to reflect that change in your costs?
As for "keeping [up and manitaning] the PC" What can I say but get a Macintosh. Since switching to OSX I had 19 months of trouble free service from my Mac with zero down time and the only maintenance I've ever had to perform was cleaning up and organizing files. The kind of mess I made of my own doing. I have not had one single system crash or virus.
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Again I totally agree to disagree. I know what insights I must have to ultimately produce the product I demand visa vie quality, cost, schedule, compliance and safety; manual estimating is the best and proven method, in my case, to achieve that comprehensive understanding of the project.
As an aside all the elements above are potential areas of liability.
I'm not looking for a quick number and time savings, I'm looking for insight and understanding. I don't have the time nor the money not to.Never serious, but always right.
Edited 4/10/2004 11:08 am ET by Russ
Russ that's okay, you can disagree. You may very well be a rare case where the benefits of estimating by hand or legal pad outweigh the benefits of estimating using a computer but generally I think that's primitive niave thinking and I really disagree with advice like "You can't beat doing it the old fashion way, by hand." You very certainly can beat it.
If you follow your logic to other areas we would be using hammers instead of pneumatic tools because they give us a better understanding of wood fastening. We would be hand saws instead of power saws because they give us a better feel for the cut. We would be carving helical stair railing parts by hand instead of using a 5-axis CNC machine because doing it by hand gives us a better understanding of the work. Instead of CAD systems we would be using pencils, T-squares, and drafting tables because it gives us greater insight into our designs.
Well I still use a hammer on occasion. I do use a handsaw at times because it gives me better control but many times 99% of those cuts were completed using a power tool and the handsaw was just used to finish it of. We actually do carve helical stair railing parts by hand but what I wouldn't give to have a 5-axis CNC machine that takes a 10 to 20 hour process and reduces it to 1-1/2. It would reduce our risk making those parts because instead of 10 to 20 hours to re-fabricate the part when something goes wrong it would only be an 1-1/2 and time is money. I still draw by hand (I was originally trained as an artist) but CAD and computer illustration opened up whole new worlds to me both through speeding up labor intensive processes (rather than re-drawing elements I pull objects I've drawn before from symbol libraries) and exposing me to new drawing techniques and methods I would not have otherwise considered.
"As an aside all the elements above are potential areas of liability." I asked you before in msg#42035.19 "What financial and liability risks are you talking about?" I mentioned that doing it "by hand" exposes you to the risk of math computational and transcriptional errors that just don't happen in computerized systems. What are the risks you are talking about? What liability are you talking about? I really have no idea what you could be possibly be talking about.
I look for insight and understanding too and automating elements of the estimating process via computer certainly frees up time to do just that. Instead of concentrating on the math involved with adding up correctly columns of numbers I can think about construction techniques and how the element fits into the schedule while the computations are automatically done in the background.
Another thing too we've found is that being able to rapidly develop accurate estimates speeds up the whole production process. If you're on a project and the client asks for changes we can more often than not turn around an accurate estimate for those changes in a day rather than a week so the client and our work force don't have to stop what they are doing while waiting for the new estimate(s) to be produced and approved.
In fact two years ago we were bidding a $180,000 stair project along with two other contractors when the owner had the architects make some major design changes in the project and we all went back to prepare new bids. The other companies said they needed ten days or two weeks to revise their bids and we came back in a day and a half and won the contract on our efficiency and presentation. We had a signed contract before the other contractors even had their revisions complete.
Like I said it's okay you can disagree, you are obviously not going to be influenced or changed by anything I say but I am curious as to just what are these "financial and liability risks" you think there are with regard to computerized estimating.
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Edited 4/10/2004 3:42 pm ET by Jerrald Hayes
If all I want to do is have the ability to change numbers I have Excel. That's numbers crunching not estimating.
If the competition was incompetent enough to need 2 weeks to refigure a staircase the owner was probably better off going with you in any case.
Computer estimating doesn't create any particular liability issues that I'm aware of. However, careful estimating eliminates, warns, and alerts of many potential liability opportunities by making the GC aware in detail of the potential pitfalls in budgeting, scheduling, safety programs, quality control, sub-contractor responsibilities, etc.
Never serious, but always right.
What software program would you use to estimate Custom residential homes from engineered drawings in the southeast ?
Since I am mostly a remodelor in the NE, I am not the best person to ask about estimating for new home construction in the SE and what I use is not necessarily the best for what you use.the best is one customized to your company by tracking job costs.If you are only building one house, and have the drawings complete, do a stick estimate
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In my search for the perfect software I came to the realization that there ain't no such thing.
Now I've clarified what I thought I wanted it boils down to this. I want a software to give me material take offs. I want a software to generate drawings without a f@@@@@ hassle. If the two can't go together fine.
You and I can build the same 10x20 room and our actual used materials should be within a couple of pieces of each other.
I've accepted the fact that there are no industrial standards that can tranfer from your business to mine, per labor, but a sheet of 4x8x1/2" sheet rock still measures 32 square feet.
I want the software to help me with proper sizing of lumber and so on. Is there such an animal?
sounds like quite a stretch to get an all-in-one software to do all that for youI don't even agree with the premise that you and i can build the same thing and use the same materials within a stick or two.I have seen different crews do the same job and vary 15% in lumber and shingles used, due to wastefull - or not - production technique.
Then there is the fact that one person might do good insulation and another do it barely adequate. Wall finishes could be 1/2" or 5/8"DW or even veneer plaster...Some guys would use 2x6" floor framing while otheres would use 2x12...that said - My Softplan can generate a good accurate list of materials with pricing if I keep it up to date, based on the design drawings I do if I accurately complete detailed drawings. But I still have to tell it what I want to build, so far as specific dimension sizes of framing etc. I can create walls, cieling coverings, rafters etc in any type I want and add to materials libraries any thing i want, with pricing.But it will not do sructural analysis. I still have to be the brains placing load paths and sizing beams.
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Thanks piffin.
I chose the word should very carefully. I suppose if software alone could do the job we wouldn't need engineers, architects, and general contractors.
I am off to play with Jerralds trail version of his software.
I hope you'll be back with a report too.
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Report 1
The software looks great lots of detail and cost lines you would run into.
I'm having trouble getting it to run correctly. I'm sure the problem is mine. But Jerrald if you're out there as I try to write a hypothetical estimate I'm getting missing file messages.
I think the problem is with my install. I download it transfer it to another computer and unzip. There isn't any install process that I'm going through so if you have suugestions...
So is there an install file with your program?
Jerrald,
The excel sheet looks pretty nice and I will look at it more detail. I did not see this previously so thank you for including it.
As to the software you developed with FileMaker, I certainly will check it out for you and provide feedback. That's often the best way to refine a product. It's not a good product if your client using it finds it hard to use or if it plain lacks intuitiveness making it hard to learn.
Don't presume I won't like it (as you presumed I would). I have no objections to well written software even if it has bells and whistles or other value added features. As I grow my biz I am fully aware that estimating and such will become more of an "art" for me out of necessity, and that's fine and I am most sure that I'll want to invest later in some of the more fancier products. For now, because I'm still at ground level as it were, I dont' think it is wise yet to invest say $1295 in super dooper software when maybe a $300 investment will get me the bare bones stuff to get me up a few more notches in my estimates.
I know I was asking for the impossible, but that never stopped me from asking before. There is a $295 product I saw that looks like it will be what I'm going to purchase ultimately. But like anyone else, I'm just trying to not spend any more than I have to at this juncture, that's the root of my post I guess you could say :)
If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
Pyro-
As a computer programmer, you should know how much effort goes into developing a solid, accurate program that will do anything- even the most basic tasks. What make you think you're going to spend a measly $295 and get a program that does the things you're asking, even without "bells and whistles"? $295 is chump change in the world of software, and you'll get exactly what you pay for.
I've evaluated dozens of software packages that cost from $200 to $10,000, and I can tell you that NONE of them accurately produce the type of estimate you're looking for- especially straight out of the box. In order to do so, the program would need to have a massive database of material and labor costs, a table of adjustment factors for different locales, and algorithms to dissect the job into its bits and pieces and then put it together in a managable report. To "click a few check boxes" and get a cost estimate based on your area is a farce- the information would be useless at best, and based on how the programmer saw the job being built- not how you'd actually build it.
Bob
I think Mike Smith's messages #42035.6 puts a finger on one of the real problems I see tons of contractors wrestling with. Summing it up (Ed Hilton-this is actually one of those things I mentioned that I wrote for something else that I hadn't posted in any forum but since Mike has already said it I'll just reiterate since it so apropos) To correctly sell a job or project you have to:
Accurately estimate the Labor Hours for the trade categories for work you plan to do internally. (If you are providing supervision of the work either by your personnel or subs that really should be included in category, some contractors figure that as part of overhead but that's not really a very accurate way of doing it at all)
Accurately determine your Labor Burden for the trades you do internally
Accurately estimate the Material Quantities that your project requires.
Accurately estimate the Cost of those Materials
Accurately estimate or get accurate bid for the Costs of Work (and any Materials) you plan to Subcontract
Accurately determine your Overhead Costs (and have an accurate markup method in place for it's correct recovery)
Accurately determine your projects Risk Contingency
Accurately determine a Value Added figure for the work you are doing. Value Added being a premium or surplus fee for the value added you company may provide such as you are the only ones in the region who know how to apply a certain coating or fabricate a certain part or provide a special service such as a swift project completion. Etc., etc.
Accurately set a Profit figure that you want to achieve.
So Pyroman, COBOL? Wow. what are you doing programming for banks and insurance companies? I began to learn C++ and Java years ago but abandoned it when I realized the tools I really needed to learn to work with estimating and job control issues were databases so I studied SQL (and Access) and because it's more "accessible" and easier for a typical contractor to learn to use FileMaker. My thinking (back in 2001) was that other contractors could use FileMaker to develop their own little custom applications that could then interface and work with mine but that just has never happened.
At least not yet. Anyway creating an estimating application in SQL, Access, Filemaker, or even Excel is very different than creating an application from scratch in VB, COBOL, Java or even C++ and I think it's the better approach. Yeah being able to do stuff like you see in Xactimate and CadEstimator where you draw something out and it extracts data from it would require Java or C++ but in my opinion I think that kind of feature while very kool is sort of a "bell and whistle". It's far more important to get the data and the relationships between that list of eight above done correctly.
Re: "...I'm working to get out of IT and into my own construction/remodel biz, thus that is why I've charged lower than normal prices to build a base of solid well done projects while I work on getting sustainable and constant work flowing in, which it seems maybe that is starting to happen which is why I'm now ready to move up to make my prices more in line with standard pricing in my area."
I'll sort of echo what I think Mike smith is getting at again in msg#42035.12 you should charge what the work is really worth based on how the market values the work and what the costs actually are. By charging lower than "normal" you are doing both you and your fellow contractors a disservice by artificially driving the market value of the work down. As for you, your clients will refer you to other clients BRANDING you as the cheap low cost contractor and that's a hell of a box to build yourself into. Really,...don't do it.
Re: "There is geographic software out there, I've seen it before where you enter a zip code and it uses a rough number for labor costs by trade, etc."
Personally, in its literal interpretation, I hate that kind of software. It's really not very accurate or at least not as accurate as what I would want. I don't want rough numbers. While exact numbers are really a statistical and logical impossibility, precise and accurate numbers is another thing altogether. I want to eliminate as much of the waste and slop in my estimating so that I can actually use estimates to evaluate our real productivity. If there is a potential ±10% variance in the estimate produced by "geographic software" and there is a potential ±5% variance due to natural Common Cause Variation in the task work being performed how will I know if my personnel are performing within an acceptable range of performance variation or if the estimate is just way off?
Re:"In the office where I work we have a simple "quick rough estimate" sheet that has some formulas behind it. You go down and checkbox things you will be doing on a given project and it assigns an estimated amount of hours per piece along with costs for that piece and a grand total. It's not a purely accurate estimate, it's rough plus or minus 20%"
The task work in IT Development work is a lot more variable ( a wider of Common Cause Variation) than the production work involved building and remodeling. A lot more variable since it primarily knowledge work and contains a lot more purely creative work. I've seen typical variation ranges mentioned from 20% to 200%!! So a ±20% estimate for IT Development may actually be okay and really considered pretty precise and accurate whereas for building and remodeling it's not. I can just look at most projects and SWAG them within 20%. I would never however bid a project that way. The margins in our industry are way to narrow for that. I think (my opinion) that you really need to estimate to ±5% to be convincingly successful.
re:"As to the software you developed with FileMaker, I certainly will check it out for you and provide feedback. That's often the best way to refine a product. It's not a good product if your client using it finds it hard to use or if it plain lacks intuitiveness making it hard to learn."
Well so far the feedback I been getting from users is good especially regarding it so called ease of use however if there is a complaint it's that for the user to really use it accurately the user needs to tune it up. In other words change all the Material Costs to what they actually pay and work out their all their Burdened Labor rates in worksheets provided for just that. But hey there really nothing I can do about that. Even in my home location of Westchester county NY there will be differences in the costs that companies incur for insurance and benefits etc. so to provide generic baseline information that good for everywhere in the country is just absurd if not a statistical impossibility.
re: "Don't presume I won't like it (as you presumed I would)." While I don't think my software provides any "bells and whistles" what is does have is what I would describe as a lot of "depth" so that's the complexity I thought you might possibly object too.
re:'As I grow my biz I am fully aware that estimating and such will become more of an "art" for me out of necessity" Funny you should mention "Art". Did you ever read the discussion here Is Estimating an Art or a Science?
re:"There is a $295 product I saw that looks like it will be what I'm going to purchase ultimately." Turtle Creeks GoldenSeal perhaps?
re: "The Excel sheet looks pretty nice and I will look at it more detail. I did not see this previously so thank you for including it." The functionality that's in that Excel worksheet I also have built in to my FileMaker applications too and its not limited to a company of under six field employees. I created that the other week as part of a discussion in the JLC forums regarding a PROOF/Indexed/Labor Allocated markup method. As of last Friday I had 504 downloads of the workbook in just under four weeks but still there hasn't really been any feedback on the mechanics of the spreadsheet or the markup method it use so feel free to get that topic rolling here. A PROOF Style Markup Excel Worksheet.
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Jerrald,
Man, that's some message you posted in reply to me. Like, LOTS of info and good advice. I really appreciate that.
As to why I'm into cobol and such...hmph, one of the reasons I hate my "day job" proramming is that I don't think our IT industry will ever come out of its slump. I was laid of 2x in 18 mos and pretty much took over a $20K pay cut just to get reemployed in my field again. Oh I have a lot of skills in VB, java, yes even C++. Just about all the big software flavors out there I"m pretty well versed in. Prob is all our programming jobs are being sent to Inda or Brazil (another discussion for another time), so it's hard anymore to even get a programming job. My last layoff lasted me 5 months and I know a handfull of guys still looking well over 18 mos. Long story on the IT end of things. Bottom line, I hate it, would rather pull wire, run pipe, cut wood, swing a hammer and build something I can go home each day and be proud of.
That said, I don't claim to be a business expert per se. I'm quite fine with business basics of making money, but I know it's more than that. So your advice is most welcomed.
As to artificially driving costs down by being "cheap." Yeah, I was pretty much aware of that. However, I've mostly limited my projects to people that know me and people who for one reason or another are sympathetic to my plight to by my own boss as it were and gave me the work, not always cuz i was cheapest, but so that I can have the experience doing their project while making some bucks to get by. In other words these people knew Iwasn't charging normal prices, so from their perception I wouildn't necessarily be driving down costs for others. Although, I conceed, I did do it a few times for people who do not know me. So, guilty :) But I"m behaving now, getting back in line what how it should be for me.
If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
Pyroman I was just reiterating what Mike Smith had to say. Hey regarding the plight of programmers I discovered last week that the guy behind the cappuccino machine where I go to get coffee was the Chief Technology Officer of a small computer consulting outfit and reading his resume online I found out he had done a lot of work in the past for some very large financial institutions so don't feel bad about it.
As for getting ito the building and remodeling business despite the fact that things have to cool down a little from this high we are on right now the future looks bright for many years to come. You might want to read the latest State of the Nations Housing Report 2003 (PDF) from the The Joint Center for Housing Studies at Harvard University to see what the future is looking like
and there is also the (PDF) Measuring the Benefits of Home Remodeling 2003 report too. There are also other research categories that the Center does reports on too that might be helpful in your business planning efforts such as: Community Development, Finance, Government Programs, Homeownership, Industry Studies, International, Markets, Remodeling, and Seniors.
One thing to keep in mind however. Creating a Building and/or Remodeling Contracting Business is a different mind set than starting your own contracting company to give yourself a job. You might want to read "The E-Myth Contractor : Why Most Contractors' Businesses Don't Work and What to Do About It by Michael E. Gerber?
And I should also add while I first read David Gerstels book Running a Successful Construction Company over a decade ago I just last week bought the revised and updated version and thought it was well worth the price again the second time around. Tons of good new stuff in it.
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