What’s the future fuel for home heating?
Hudson Valley Carpenter
| Posted in Energy, Heating & Insulation on
I’m planning a new super-insulated home for a 2 acre lot I own in rural NY State and I’m wondering where, in theory, we’re headed for heating fuel in the foreseeable future.
At this point, without looking for scholarly research on the subject, my sense is that electricity will become more important and relatively cheaper than other current fuels.
Anyone care to discuss this question?
Replies
Upstate NY - with the life you've got left - it's oil. Geothermal? My friend in Saratoga Cty. has what I feel is the best of all worlds. A combination oil fired/wood burning furnace. Things get real bad, he does not need elec. to heat his home. Ranch style (sgl. story) full basement. Sounds like you may be retiring there, if so, your own plow vehicle and a whole house generator (system). Catskills and north can present life threatening conditions if not prepared. On a personal note I never want to depend on a public utility for my well-being. Plus with oil,LP, you have your choice of multiple vendors for price/service and wood can be had free (except for the labor aspect).
Edited 5/10/2009 7:10 am ET by Pelipeth
I agree that some sort of combination is the best answer for rural places where electric power is often lost due to ice storms.
I experimented with passive solar, wood, and electric baseboard for many years, on a south-east facing slope. It was warm and pleasant on sunny days but I soon discovered that winter in the mid-Hudson Valley only offers one day of sun for every two days of oscured conditions.
From those years, tending an inefficient woodstove in a minimally insulated space, I concluded that super-insulation was the first priority. Logically, when the need for heat is reduced to a minimum, the choice of heat sources and fuels becomes broader and the unit cost, less important.
I enjoyed my wood stove a lot. There's enough hardwood growth on the property to supply a super-insulated home with fuel indefinitely, given a modern, efficient stove. But a woodstove must still be considered auxiliary heat, from the standpoint of marketing the home.
I'm also trying to foresee what will be the best investment now, for the years ahead. I'd like the installed system to dovetail with the future nicely, twenty or more years from now.
My friends oil fired furnace is also the wood burner, it's a slick unit. Wood burns out, oil fires up. It's NOT a wood stove, true combo-unit. To look at it you would never know it was multi-fuel.
My friends oil fired furnace is also the wood burner, it's a slick unit. Wood burns out, oil fires up. It's NOT a wood stove, true combo-unit. To look at it you would never know it was multi-fuel.
I like that idea enough that I researched it pretty carefully last year. The problem it presents is the initial investment vs. the uncertainty of oil prices coupled with the peculiar nature of the system for potential buyers of the home.
I've learned from buying and selling other stuff that it's lots easier to find a buyer when there's nothing unfamiliar about the product. I been up against that obstacle before, with custom cars vs. classic cars as one example, and it can severely limit the number of potential buyers.
There are some good thoughts following this post. Taking alittle from each, go for the well insulated home, one that doesn't need fresh air pumped in, and go with oil, because of your rural area. A quality burner, Buderaus or Viesmann and don't think about it. We'll be dependent on oil for at least the next 50 yrs. You'll probably be dead prior to that.
NG is a fuel we have plenty of in the states. In my county alone there is enough wells to last the state of Texas for years. BUT..
They cap 9 out of ten when drilled so as not to lower the price too much. The oilmen say it is not needed is why they do it but I dont think that is why. A lot of utlilties are fired by NG which is cleaner than coal. Once the conservationist get coal fired ones off line it will most likely be up to the NG people to step up.
Plus with NG you dont have to worry about downed power lines in winter if you fire your heater with it.
Due to the recent state of the economy, the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off
Like everyone in the U.S., I'd love to have an NG hook up at my rural site.
The county was debating that issue, twenty years ago, whether or not to issue bonds to install gas service, county wide. After a brief study, it was determined that the costs would not be justifiable, unless everyone paid for their hook-ups, up front.
I am basically in the same boat with NG but we use propane at my house. There is a NG line that runs right by my house that is a dedicated line for the poultry growers but not for us. Propane is about the same I guess cost wise. Down here in oil and gas country we just call it all NG. Due to the recent state of the economy, the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off
You're going to get answers all over the map.
In areas where wind/solar is likely to be a growing source electricity may be the best choice, but in other areas you're basically gambling that nuclear will take off.
In a rural area (and especially northeast) natural gas is probably not an option, so it's either oil or propane in terms of "conventional" fuels.
I'm sure a number of folks here will suggest wood.
I've even heard of one guy that heated with junk mail.
Basically, you're doing the right thing to super-insulate. Then the heat source you use won't matter so much.
My suggestion would be to try to design in a little flexibility -- say an electric heat pump with some sort of wood-burning auxiliary heat (if only a fireplace), and enough utility space in the house to install a different heat source (say, oil burner) if needed in the future. Likely the heat pump is all that you'll ever need, but if we knew the future it would be the past.
(I hadn't considered the possibility of power outages. If they're reasonably rare where you will be then a wood fireplace should be all the backup you need, but if they're common then you'd want propane or oil as a primary, plus a genset, of course.)
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
<I've even heard of one guy that heated with junk mail>
Hey - seriously - that could be a super idea! Especially catalogs.
Just get online, get on some mailing lists, and accumulate them all summer. I know our paper recycle bin gets nearly a hundred pounds a month, 'cuz it gets weighed at the center for the school credit.
Seriously - I've got to think about this. I recall that during WW2 they made "logs" from paper soaked in paper, rolled tightly, and then dried.
Hmmmmmmmm . . .
Forrest
Yeah, this was about 30 years ago. The guy got himself on every junk mail list he could find.I'm sure his mailman loved him.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
"
<I've even heard of one guy that heated with junk mail>Hey - seriously - that could be a super idea! Especially catalogs."I dunno - if a lot of folks started doing that, it would drive up the cost of all the junk mail I get. No one would be able to afford to have the mailman deliver any!
I appreciate your thoughts and comments. The future is a bit hard to glimpse but one thing that sticks out from the recent past is that oil prices can and do fluctuate a lot, leaving the homeowner at their mercy. Of course those prices directly influence the cost of propane and auto fuels too.
With that in mind, I'm thinking that electricity, particularly off-peak, may provide the best answer when combined with a wood stove. Of course it depends on what fuel(s) is/are used by the local power company but in my area of NY State oil isn't one of them.
Its wood and electric here but we are blessed with hardwood forrests.
Tim
You probably already know about this from prior postings of mine, but you should seriously consider a design by Adirondack Alternative Energy.
Passive solar.
As far as I know, the Democrats have not schemed to tax the energy that can be gotten from the sun.
If you want to tour one that is in the final stages of construction, PM me and I can arrange it.
View Image
"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
Thanks for the offer Gene. I look forward to visiting one of your jobs, sometime after I return to NY State. You do a lot of interesting work so I'm sure I'll get a plenty of good ideas from you.
I tried passive solar, a rudimentary experiment with one solar room in my home, about thirty years ago. It would've probably been helpful, had I talked to the National Weather Service first, to learn how many days of sun I could expect in the Mid-Hudson area. Turned out that passive solar was a bust there for lots of folks, some of whom invested a lot more in that new concept back then, than I did.
Hi Gene_Davis,
As far as I know, the Democrats have not schemed to tax the energy that can be gotten from the sun.
Hey! No fair given 'em ideas.....ever heard of the view tax.....or how about tax on what you would pay in rent for the home you own or Charles Ingles from Little House...."Property Tax, who'd ever thought of it....next thing you know they'll be taxing our income......naw, no way they'd do that".......
Pedro the Mule - glad they don't tax my fur, only my hyde after I'm gone....he's called a taxidermistcrat
global warming...
Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Wood and electricity. I would want gas to cook on if possible.
Wood and electricity. I would want gas to cook on if possible.
That's the direction I've been leaning, using ceramic heaters charged during off-peak hours.
I haven't tried cooking on any modern electric stoves so I don't know how close they come to gas. That's something I'll have to look into more carefully, as I will do with electric water heaters vs. LP.
Natural gas is my vote.
I have been concerned about the lack of ventilation when cooking with gas.
Isn't there a risk of carbon monoxide? Or whatever other gasses that result from burning gas indoors?
I have been concerned about the lack of ventilation when cooking with gas.
Isn't there a risk of carbon monoxide?
That was one of the more disingenuous marketing lies bandied about by electric stove manufacturers back in the late 50s. That and the one about electricity being 'cleaner' than dirty old gas stoves. They aimed that marketing campaign squarely at the 'thoroughly modern Millie' typical suburban housewife of that era who shied in hand-waving horror from anything that smacked of old-fashioned. Sleazy marketers sold a lotta canned baby formula that way by claiming it was more 'hygienic' than breast milk because it was made in a modern sterile factory.
The only real danger that came from cooking with a gas stove (in the old days) was that the pilot light would blow out and fill the room with gas causing asphyxiation or an explosion. That can no longer happen as all modern gas stoves use piezo-electric igniters, and the ovens have electric igniters with thermostat-controlled electric gas valves that will not admit gas to the oven burners unless the igniter is hot enough to light it.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Water and carbon dioxide. Carbon monoxide is only created when gas is burned with too little oxygen.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
CO is a byproduct of any open flame combustion device, but y0ou would need to try heating your house with that cooking appliance to produce enough of it to be dangerous, and most ranges also now are accompanied by a hood exhaust fan.Burning a few candles in the house is more dangerous than a modern gas appliance, for a couple reasons.for my thinking, which cook appliance comes down to what a person likes to use, rather than cost or safety. Both are safe and cost differences per meal have to be down in the long decimals of a penny
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
If your upstate house is insulated as well as a German Passivhaus,
then I don't think you will need a huge boiler, and I suspect you
could get away with a ground source heat pump -- geothermal with
a little electricity.
For an all-electric solution, I think some sort of off-peak heat
storage such as the storage-type heaters from Stiebel Eltron, or
else off-peak hot water generation and storage with a heat pump.
Whatever the electrical solution, either for heating or cooling,
the keyword for the future is "off peak." In some places in California,
for instance, the rate differential between peak and off peak is
10x.
Thanks for your thoughtful comments. I agree that off peak has a significant advantage, when used to heat ceramic furnaces.
However the difference in cost from the producer is only one part of the equation. There is also the delivery charge from the local power company. Delivery is very large part of the final bill so that 10X price difference isn't nearly as helpful as it appears.
Nonetheless, the heat storage ideas you suggest are valid and have been important to my planning since I first learned of them here on BT.
Here is a commercial product:http://www.waraloninc.com/electric-storage-heater-info.htmI have a similar thing made by Sharp, which uses a tank of
liquid polyethylene for storage.In my area (Japan) the rate for daytime electricity is 26 cents
and after midnight this falls to 4 cents, per kwh. At 2008 oil
prices, this 4 c/kwh calculates out as the cheapest source of
energy in our market, compared to kerosene, gas and propane.Strategically thinking, because of NIMBY, it's very difficult to build new electrical power generating stations. Meanwhile, consumption always goes up, and the peak load problem, which occurs during the air-conditioning season, will get worse and worse as the climate gets hotter.Consequently, there will be increasing pressure to tweak more efficiency out of the electrical utility system, and off-peak power will be increasingly used. One thing that is not yet on the radar screen is off-peak cooling for residential. Its pretty simple: during the day, your refrigerant lines bypass your compressor and pass through a big block of ice on the way to your air handler. At night, the system is timed to divert the refrigerant back to the compressor, then it gets pumped back to the ice tank to re-freeze it.http://www.trinity-thermal.com/
Thanks for that information and the link. Here's another ETS manufacturer which is well known in the U.S. http://www.steffes.com/offpeak/
On a more theoretical basis (for discussion purposes)--I did a set of plans for a Habitat House competition for North Carolina once and I tried to cover all bases, so I had a passive solar heated tank of water that was like the heat source and this was assisted by a dual-fueled heat pump. So, if the sun is shining (less likely a good source in upper NY State than North Carolina though), you can run solar heated hot water through your hydronic radiant heating system. If the sun isn't out, you can use oil or natural gas to fire up the boiler. I suppose you could add in an electrical water heater too. Then if nuclear is used for generating electricity (or wind) you can buy cheap electricity from the utility company. I never priced it out--but I imagine the system with all the back up sources for heat could get expensive.
I think I even had a sort of passive air system where solar heated air from an atrium that was heated by the sun hitting a dark floor with water tanks and gravel and then went through a floor of concrete blocks where the blocks were all on their sides with the cores oriented to form ducts for the air. (I think this could be a problem though if the air went into living spaces, as it might get dusty or full of mold spores.) If you somehow had it cycle under the house and only heat the floor and then the floor radiated heat to the dwelling, with the potentially contaminated air never entering the living space, it may be okay.
The house also had overhead (garage-type) insulated doors. One on the front glass wall of the atrium greenhouse was on a sensor that opened it when the sun was shining and shut it when it wasn't. Another between the atrium and the house proper opened when the temperature in the greenhouse rose above a certain temperature.
It was undoubtedly way too complicated, but it was fun to think of all the possibilities! I do think the idea of a big tank of water that a heat pump could extract heat from, where the tank got a boost of heat from being in the upper part of a south facing greenhouse, might work. The advantage of a heat pump, if coupled with the in-floor air system, is that it would cool the place too, and put the heat back into the water tank for use later, or for domestic hot water.
Propane or perferably, natural gas.
I have had enough of you new york city area people taking electricity from upstate.
Tell them the truth, you are less than 60 miles from NYC. Upstate my but, that is still NYC area!>G<
Propane or perferably, natural gas.
I have had enough of you new york city area people taking electricity from upstate.
Tell them the truth, you are less than 60 miles from NYC. Upstate my but, that is still NYC area!>G<
So what's this? A hick vs red neck contest? ;-) OK, you win, I'm the hick and you're the red neck. You live farther upstate than I do, I admit it, but there's still numerous dairy farms around western Orange County and the upper Delaware river is only a couple miles away.
BTW, my place is about 60 miles from NYC, as the crow flies (though I doubt any would). That's about 75 miles by car, or an hour and a half, without traffic problems.
I don't get my juice from NYC's ConEd, it comes from Orange&Rockland which produces some of their own and buys the rest, like almost all providers.
If you're tired of sharing the abundance of cheap hydro power you get as the result of state planning and investment schemes, long ago, try talking to your state reps about it. I wish the state would take more responsibility for welfare people who move out of NYC to our area and end up being a burden on our property tax based county governement.
It's ridiculous, how much my property taxes have increased over the years, without any improvement in services except those provided for NYC's welfare cases. But it's mandated by state law that counties are responsible for anyone who shows up. NYC dumps them on us, even though we had nothing to do with creating their problems.
I may end up being one of your neighbors, moving county to county until I find a decent property tax deal.
end up being one of your neighbors, moving county to county until I find a decent property tax deal>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
Not in NY!!!!!!
If you're tired of sharing the abundance of cheap hydro power you get as the result of state planning and investment schemes>.......
Actually we get most of our power from 3 nuclear plants in Oswego!
Cheap Hydro is a thing that NYS doles out to keep companies in the state!
Actually we get most of our power from 3 nuclear plants in Oswego!
Ah, Oswego down the road. That's another worthwhile discussion, modern nuclear power plants and how they fit into our future.
You've been living with those older ones nearby for many years. What's your take on them? Do you feel comfortable with the idea of building more, even safer ones now?
they want to build another.
We also are about 5omiles from a huge wind farm on the tug hill.
I don't care if they build another. Ambivalent about the ones there now.
There is a source of forced-air heat that is being distributed for free over the internet. Sounds wacky, I know, but apparently there is an almost uncontrollable surplus of hot air being generated on a nightly basis and all the end-user has to do is figure out a way to harness it for home heating. I'm rather surprised no one has yet mentioned it here, too.
It's called Tavern Gas....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Tavern Gas....
Is that place still around? I thought that it had self destructed a while back.
It's pretty much 'unsafe at any speed' but the exhaust fumes aren't any less potent thereby....
Seriously, my vote would be for wood as primary with self-cirulating (pumpless) hot-water CI rads as back-up.
And gas for cooking, of course. No electric stove will ever match the response and sensitivity of gas. Electric is digital (yes/no) heating with a mass-dependant time-lag; gas gives you instantaneous and continuously-variable analog control of your heat output--very important if you don't wanna curdle the hollandaise sauce....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
It's pretty much 'unsafe at any speed' but the exhaust fumes aren't any less potent thereby....
Methane has been proven to kill without warning.
Seriously, my vote would be for wood as primary with self-cirulating (pumpless) hot-water CI rads as back-up.
Wood will certainly be part of the equation. I'd like to hear/read more about self-circulating radiators. I've somehow missed any previous posts in other threads on that system. Please continue.
And gas for cooking, of course. No electric stove will ever match the response and sensitivity of gas. Electric is digital (yes/no) heating with a mass-dependant time-lag; gas gives you instantaneous and continuously-variable analog control of your heat output--very important if you don't wanna curdle the hollandaise sauce....
I suppose it's too much to expect that electric will ever be as responsive as gas. I'm not a sauce maker so it might not matter to me. I was hoping to hear that the newer tops on electric stoves might be better than the old electric stoves I remember from my younger days, living in some all electic apartments.
Certainly an electric stove is easier to clean than the alternatives, and (if you want to spend the bucks) I hear that many upscale restaurants have gone to induction stoves instead of gas.But partly it's what you're used to. I (almost) always used an electric, and same for my wife, so we're used to its characteristics. Coming from a gas stove you'd have to be prepared to adjust a bit (unless you got an induction unit).
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
Coming from a gas stove you'd have to be prepared to adjust a bit (unless you got an induction unit).
I suppose that if there was countertop space adjacent to each electric stove element, it would be easy enough to slide a pan or pot off the stove, should an immediate reduction in heat be necessary.
That's not as ideal as twisting a knob to reduce a flame but, after some practice with the response time of electric elements that would probably be a workable arrangement.
As an occasional volunteer cook for large gatherings I've learned to manage the cooking process of most complex dishes so that the heat begins low and slowly increases as new ingredients are added. With a little practice, using that method, I suspect that I wouldn't have any trouble with electric elements.
I am far from a hot-water-heating expert, but I do remember the big CI rads in my grandmother's house (and many other places when I was younger) and know that they provide a consistant and comfortable heat unmatched by anything except a CI woodstove. Grandma had an NG-fired furnace/boiler in the basement; no pumps. The hot water circulated throughout the house by convection, if I'm not screwing up my terminology.
(Somebody who knows more about this stuff oughta step in here and correct me or fill in the gaps, as necessary.)
I do know that today you can get wood-fired furnaces capable of heating a boiler for hot-water heat, if you want to second-stage your heat delivery. I'm not sure that would be worth it; my idea would be to have an electric or gas boiler running in low-capacity mode to provide hot water for consumption, and thus it would be on standby to provide extra heat through the rads on those days when Mama Nature is on the Rag or you've been away from home too long to keep the homefires burning....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
You're pretty certain that grandma's old radiators were hot water, not steam? My grandparents' apartment had cast iron steam rads which also did a fine job.
I recall watching a TOH episode where a steam rad was converted to HW so I don't doubt your memory, just curious about the water convection thing.
Of course, steam heat has natural convection because it condenses and returns to the boiler as liquid.
My grandparents lived in downtown Lansing and had hot water radiators that used hot water "left over" from the Board of Power and Light generarting electricity. The untility had a large loop that circulated the hot water left from making steam to run the generators. Of course, that was "old fashioned" and I think it was done away with many years ago--about the time "Urban Renewal" took the house (three story Italiante Villa) and bulldozed it for a parking lot or something more in keeping with the modern scheme of things.
I'm not sure, actually. Somebody who knows this stuff could answer that better.
The rads had an inlet 'faucet' for turning them on or off (or possibly reducing the flow) and a chromed over-pressure release valve that would go psst-psst-psst when the heat was coming up in the radiator.
Like that highly technical description, LOL?
I do know there was a separate tank in the basement that looked like--but was not--an oil-burner fuel tank. Maybe a hundred gallons. That was probably the boiler. The furnace itself was a pretty standard sheet-metal box about 5 feet tall, 2 feet wide, and maybe 4 feet deep. There was no separate potable hot-water reservoir.
My memory of the system is a bit vague; she converted from coal to gas when I was about 10 or 12 years old and I was somewhat pissed off 'cause that meant I could no longer draw pictures on the sidewalk with lumps of coal....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
The rads had an inlet 'faucet' for turning them on or off (or possibly reducing the flow) and a chromed over-pressure release valve that would go psst-psst-psst when the heat was coming up in the radiator.
That's the same as my grandparents' CI steam radiators. The chromed relief valve is the strongest indicator that it was steam. We had to open and close the 'faucets', to regulate the temperature of the apartment.
Yep, sounds like the same system.
The important things about it were that it would run quite nicely even when there was a power failure (if you overrode the low-voltage thermostats; easy to do at the furnace itself); and the huge mass of those CI rads kept radiating nice, gentle heat for up to an hour after the steam stopped coming up.
Even though Grandma kept the 'stats turned down to the mid 60s, I don't ever remember being cold in that house. And I know the insulation was not even worth mentioning by today's standards (built in 1923 or 24).
For me, the main thing about my primary heat source is that it must not be infrastructure-dependent. If there's a bad enough ice storm, I could lose electrical power for a long time: in '98, I lost it for almost a week but on the South Shore some places didn't get juice back for 7 weeks. If I depended on electricity to keep this place warm, I would have lost all the plumbing and had to move to one of the temporary shelters they set up in churches and school gyms.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I've learned the same lessons about electricity, from numerous outages due to ice storms, over many winters.
Actually, I lived without electricity in my original cabin for about a year, because the utility company wanted me to put in a driveway so they could bring in their auger to dig for the pole. When the day came, the auger wasn't available so one guy dug the hole by hand while the other three watched and kibitized. Typical.
So I learned to live with wood heat as my primary during those years, and enjoy it too. Of course the winters at your latitudes are much colder but the principle remains the same.
One of the reasons I want a big header tank in the house is so that water will be available via gravity, enough to keep everything going for many days, at reduced pressure and flow.
I missed where you talked about a header tank, but that's an excellent idea. I learned that living in NYC in a 5th-floor walkup.
NYC muny pressure isn't sufficient to push water much higher than about 6 or maybe 7 floors; virtually all the older buildings taller than that have (or had; I haven't lived there in almost 30 years) big wooden water tanks on the roof. One small pump keeps that filled by running more or less constantly. The pump can't keep up with demand during peak hours, but it doesn't need to: The tank itself is big enough to do that and the pump catches up once everybody leaves to go to work and again after everyone goes to bed at night.
That is the one thing I don't have here that I wish I did, but there's no attic in this house so no place for a header tank. My water comes from the lake via a pump and pressure tank in the basement. When the electricity goes out, I still have plenty of water...but I have no running water. One of these days when I've got nothing better to do I'm gonna Rube-Goldberg a stationary bicycle rig to drive the old piston pump I use to prime long water lines when somebody's foot-valve gives up the ghost....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I'm surprised that header tanks aren't found more often in rural areas, particularly when wells only produce a gallon a minute or so. Maybe that's how well drillers get clients to pay for deeper wells, tell 'em that they need three gallons or more a minute.
Like NYC in the old days, it just makes sense to pump water slowly at night, possibly getting off-peak rates too.
Hey, if we keep kicking these ideas around, we may come up with ways to use off-peak juice for all our major power needs.
I started another thread about pre-heating well water to room temperature, looking for ideas on that subject. So far, using off-peak power is one of the better ideas. Goes nicely with pumping water into a big header tank during off-peak hours.
I think header tanks are found more often on farms than small rural residences like mine; on a farm there's more space to construct a tower...and also less likelihood that the yuppie weekend cottager next door will get his knickers in a knot about an 'ugly' water tower and tank ruining his view of the bucolic beauty.
In this area, the cold is a factor too. Running water doesn't freeze easily, but it has to run pretty hard to stay liquid at -35º (and it gets that cold at night regularly through most of January). Even good-sized waterfalls up here can freeze; I doubt the debit from a small header pump would be sufficient to prevent an exterior water tank from freezing up.
As to pre-heating well water to room temperature, a 'warming basin' on the surface would do that quite nicely for part of the year. In winter, the temperature of my incoming water from the lake is about +1º or +2º...but in high summer it gets up in the high teens. And that's a 55-acre lake; a small basin kept filled by a well-pump would warm much more quickly.
You really notice the seasonal difference when you've got to crank the cold water faucet almost wide open in August to temper the hot water down to a comfortable temp for a shower or dish-washing: In winter, I just barely have to crack the cold.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Are cisterns used at all up your way? Seems like a tank below grade would avoid the problem of frozen water. Many 19th century (pre-electricity) homes had them instead of cellars, in rural areas of the U.S. That was partly because rain water was cleaner than shallow hand-dug wells but also because shallow wells would run dry too.
No cisterns up here; for one thing we're in the mountains, sitting right smack on top of the Canadian Shield. You start digging, your chances of hitting solid rock in the first 12 inches are about 50/50.
For another thing, the frost line is 60 inches down (where you can dig that deep!). Two feet below the surface, you can still find ice crystals in early summer. I remembering tearing out an old wooden retaining wall for a driveway one May years ago; surface was 6 inches of mud and slop but below that was solid frozen. Had to use picks and a lot of cussin' to get the old tiebacks outta there. Shoulda brought in an excavator, actually....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Old hot water systems moved water relatively effectively for decades or more by natural convection, whereby the warmer "supply" water was less dense (just like warm air tends to rise in the absence of other forces) and rose through the piping to the terminal units (radiators in your example) gives up some heat and cools. Then it is less dense and falls. The first inline circulator pumps were called "booster" pumps because they were designed and intended for these types of systems, just to give them "a little boost".
The inlet valve/faucet is just that, a way to throttle flow and heat output. The chromed "over-pressure relief" valve is actually an air vent in a steam system. As steam filled the system on a call for heat, the pressure would rise and force out the air. When the steam reached the vent, a thermostatic element would close it to prevent inadvertent release of steam into the space. Another tell-tale sign the system is steam: one pipe. Each radiator has only one pipe connection. Though not all (and darn few if any today), most older residential steam heating systems used the same pipe to supply the steam AND return the condensate back to the boiler. All hot water systems require two pipe connections; one for supply and one for return.
All hot water systems require two pipe connections; one for supply and one for return.
Thanks; I think I actually knew that at one time but had forgotten.
Based on that, Grandma's system may indeed have been HW; there were definitely two pipes on each rad. I distinctly remember stubbing my toe on the return pipe getting outta the bathtub, and the pipe with the valve was on the other side of the radiator.
When I was planning the major rebuild of my own place in '95, I wanted to put in a hot-water/CI-rad system powered by a wood furnace, but I found it absolutely impossible to buy new cast-iron radiators. The only rads available for hot water systems were the finned type...not what I had in mind.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Steam rads have a feed and a return too. The condensed steam has to go somewhere after it does it's job.
SOME steam radiators have two pipes. Many (probably the majority) do not.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
The ones at my grandparents had two pipes. I remember because I learned not to touch the hot one. I also recall my grandfather explaining how the old steam system worked.
It took me a while to get it. I had to go down to the basement/laundry room and see the big coal fired boiler.
The more common arrangement for a steam (vs hot water) system is a single pipe. The pipe is oversized and steam can go up it while water is draining down. Some skill/knowledge is required to get all the piping right back to the boiler, since it all must be properly sloped.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
Your original question:
I'm in a similar situation. Planning the retirement house. The most efficent, long lasting and maintenace free thing I can cobble together.
You've just seen what can happen when oil/gas prices go crazy. Next time, it'll be worse.
First, the house design. It must be naturally and by design to be low energy consumption. Overly insulated, beyond minimums, heat recovery ventilating device(s), and some form of solar gain. Positioned to get the best solar exposure and with the right roof pitch. (Mine is gonna be 11/12.) Built in wind and storm protection. (I plan on having glassed/screened porches on the west side of the house exposed to the vicious winds off Lake Michigan.) No heat siphon devices like heavy, continuous, masonry chimney stacks. Windows engineered like the space shuttle. Hot water line lengths kept to a minimum.
Second, the life style also needs to accomodate the energy issue. The whole family should be brought in for their input. Make them owners of the ultimate concept. Full dishwashers, laundry machines, those type of things. Cooking can be done just fine on electricity or gas. Maybe a professional chef can make a case, but is your family that particular? I've heard good things about the induction units, but also hear they're pricey - in intial cost and new pans.
Energy-wise, electricity, like madmadscientist says, is gonna be around. The cost base of such is being extensively diversifyed thru solar and wind projects, not to mention the new focus on new technologies of nuke production. My belief is the cost of power will moderate, but still be somewhat exposed to the commodity pricing. Which to me, means less movement than oil prices.
The key is to minimize your electricity usage, or at least the billing of such usage. The insulation is step one towards that, personal behavior is step two. But the power plant within your home needs to be the most efficient producer of heating, cooling, and hot water. If it can generate electricity somewhere in that process, all the better.
That most efficient power plant today is found in Ground Source Heat Pumps. Oil will get you what, 25 to 35% efficiency on up to maybe 90ish? Nat gas or propane will maybe turn 96%? Electricity (resistant) does 100%. But the new GSHPs will do over 300%. No electricity production, however. That's where your solar application comes in. Or your microhead turbine in the creek out back. Or perhaps the next decades development of fuel cells.
Wood is nice because of the free source. IF it's free. Sometimes, it's more expensive than one thinks:
Report: Otsego woman dies after chainsaw hits her while cutting down tree with husband
by The Grand Rapids Press staff
Sunday May 10, 2009, 11:08 PM
OTSEGO - In an apparent accident, a man killed his wife when a chainsaw he was using hit her in the neck Sunday, according to a broadcast report.
The couple was trying to cut down a tree in their yard when the incident occurred around 2 p.m. The wife was pronounced dead at the scene, according to WOOD-TV.
The station talked to David Labonte, a neighbor and deputy for the Allegan County Sheriff Department: "I heard a cry for help, so I came outside and at that time, I saw what was going on and I rendered as much aid as I possibly could. I'm glad that based on my position, that I was the one that was the first to respond."
The incident remains under investigation, but investigators told WOOD-TV that there doesn't appear to be foul play.
And I don't wanna be cutting timber when I'm 75.
I'd suggest you also check out any incentives the local electrical ute in that area may offer towards GSHP's or other devices. About 12 years ago, the GSHP I was using in SE Mich., was on a offpeak billing rate of 2.9 cents per KWH. Which made electrical resistant backup economical and easy to interface with the unit.
So my plan is the design, porches, controlled solar gain/PV, coupled with several sealed wells about 140' deep hooked up to the GSHP. A backup generator until a good fuel cell develops. And maybe wood, if I can place a very good heat exchanger into some form of external combustion chamber. The heated water from it would then used for either radiant heat in the porches or as a snow melt system in the driveway.
And zoned air distribution systems so's I can hunker down within a few rooms should the storm last longer and be colder than usual.
Solid thinking, clearly relating to years of experience. Thanks for sharing it all.
Hi Dinasaur,
uncontrollable surplus of hot air being generated on a nightly basis and all the end-user has to do is figure out a way to harness it for home heating.
The problem is that it's so windy, always moving around uncontrollably. Congress is working on it as we speak.....something about the Equal Opportunity Provision....if that works out we'll also get free "cooling" of the market.
Pedro the Mule - Breakin' wind myself
No fuel, geothermal. If i were building thats what i'd go with.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
No fuel, geothermal. If i were building thats what i'd go with.
Good, how about a link to a particular product or an article extolling and explaining a system of which you approve. I'm a geothermal enthusiast but remain uninitiated and poorly informed about what works. Need facts and personal experience!
Sorry no personal experience or articles to refer you to. I just like not having a gas bill ever again.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gc1URQgQWNo&feature=related
Mike
Small wheel turn by the fire and rod, big wheel turn by the grace of god.
Probably one thing you should do is get a good rough estimate of the heating load your super-insulated home will represent, then figure out what that BTU number means in terms of watt-hours, gallons of oil, etc. If you do a bang-up job of insulation then you'll likely be looking at a very small number such that agonizing over the cost (vs convenience) isn't really worth it.
If you do a bang-up job of insulation then you'll likely be looking at a very small number such that agonizing over the cost (vs convenience) isn't really worth it.
As previously noted, I'm trying to look into the future so that my selection doesn't prove to be a poor investment which needs to be replaced. But you make a good point about agonizing over the choice when the super-insulation mitigates so much of the potential difference in fuel costs.
Like, what difference does it make if oil prices fluctuate when the house only needs a relatively small amount of LP each winter? If that's my fuel of choice, then why not invest in that system and enjoy it's benefits?
That's my point. And consider other features, such as convenience, maintenance, dependability, in addition to the price.If it as me I'd have a hard time not picking propane, because of the simplicity/maintenance factor. If electric, it would be a toss-up between a regular unit and GS -- the GS is more efficient but higher maintenance. But either way have a wood stove for backup.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
If it as me I'd have a hard time not picking propane, because of the simplicity/maintenance factor. If electric, it would be a toss-up between a regular unit and GS -- the GS is more efficient but higher maintenance. But either way have a wood stove for backup.
Maintenance is another important consideration.
I'm pretty certain, at this point, that I'll begin by building a duplex on one of my lots. I need the income in order to qualify for loans when credit is as tight as it is at present. I'll also need income to make use of tax credits earned by installing energy saving materials. And, after forty-odd years of feast-or-famine adventures in cash flow, I'm ready for a reliable monthly budget.
In any case, becoming an absentee landlord for the first time leads me toward installing the most reliable, least complicated heating units. ETS certainly qualifies there.
Edited 5/12/2009 9:36 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Electricity makes sense in a lot of ways. It can be sourced from hydro, coal, gas, oil, nuke, or wind.
But it will never be cheaper than any of those, only competitive to them.
The big Q is how long will that take? In the mid seventies, I predicted that we would all move to elec fired from nukes and natgas.
See how far ahead of my time I was?
But if I had been heating my house with elec all this time, I'd be even more broke than I am.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
The big Q is how long will that take?
Makes me wonder if any local power companies are providing cost comparisons using ceramic heaters and off-peak juice.
I doubt that my provider is offering that exact comparison but perhaps someone on BT has run the numbers with their company. If so, please report.
My climate is a pretty darn close match.
Northern Catskills vs Hudson Valley I have a GSHP with wood stove back up. 1700sqft single story house from the seventies.
Poorly insulated at the moment. 2x walls with fiberglass and
R19 in the ceilings. The Heat pump works just fine even through the dead of winter.
It does cycle a good bit, but keeps up well. No maintenance to speak of. With NY taxes and prices our highest bills are $300.00 a month.
Now keep in mind that includes ALL electric use, including hot water
and cook stove ( I hate the electric stove by the way). I'm insulating this year, it will be interesting to see where that
leave the monthly nut. Don't forget all the NG drilling that is about to happen right here.
It COULD make it a viable choice for us.
Don't forget all the NG drilling that is about to happen right here.It COULD make it a viable choice for us.
I hope you're right but it'll take some imagination and probably some state or federal funds.
Getting gas piped to rural homes has been a local government matter which is hard to get approved. Very expensive per home unless everyone pays an upfront connection fee of $5K or more. That, in addition to swapping an oil furnace/boiler for gas, would prohibit most HOs from taking that route, without a jackpot tax credit.
Getting gas piped to rural homes has been a local government matter which is hard to get approved>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
I don't understand this. The local utility generqlly is more than happy to install around here. It does take a bunch of people wanting to be hooked up.
My father lives in a village that just had it installed. Only cost to him is his monthly gas bill. They had to have it, because the local school was forced by the state to have 3 sources of energy possible for heating. Oil, electric and now natural gas. Love those state mandates!
My definition of rural comes from post office abbreviations, RD and/or RFD. That usually means a fair distance between homes and farms, making the cost of laying new gas pipe much higher per customer than in a village.
making the cost of laying new gas pipe>>>>>>
Assumed cost by the utility, not the customer directly.
Assumed cost by the utility, not the customer directly.
Yea, but ya gotta have a local gas company. Most rural areas have only electric utility companies. That's true for both NY State counties where I own property.
off-peak juice. >>>>>>>>>>>>
This is a California mindset. Come east where everybody pays the same. You need to stop worring about what the future heating source will be, and remember you will live in the house a long time before electric is as inexpensive as gas. Propane is your friend!
Bury the tank, and enjoy!!
"..a long time before electric is as inexpensive as gas. "
If electricity costs $0.082/kWh and LP costs $2.40/gal its a wash, assuming 92% AFUE for the gas appliances and resistence heating for the electrics.
Hey Tim, I know what the numbers are supposed to be. The reality is different. I saw a townhouse project switch from electric to natural gas with the result, the bills for heat dropped by 2/3rds.
Only one "regular" here might buy this. Numbers work, if their not made up BS (which his invariably are). Reality is NOT different than accurate numbers. IF you really knew what the numbers were supposed to be and understood why, you wouldn't have posted such nonsense.
The cost to heat with NG is usually significantly less than with electric resistence heating, but I didn't mention natural gas did I? I simply stated that, at the costs listed, the equivalent amount of heat costs the same amount of money.
Without numbers that work (or the understanding of why reality is NEVER different) and still commenting on how your reality is different than easily demonstartable physical phenomena, you resemble a prolific, unemployable saleman expert wannabe that frequently posts on subjects beyond his technical understanding.
you wouldn't have posted such nonsense>>>>>>>>>>>..
Why thank you for you insightful post.
Propane is very close in cost to NG, you are insulting me for wich you know nothing.
I am sorry I even posted to you, mr know it all!
I apologize for jumping down your throat. My bad.
My point is, however, that the numbers work. Always. Reality is not different. In your townhouse example, what are the numbers? What is the cost per kWh of electricity including all the assocaited fees and costs? What is the cost of natural gas per therm? You don't really believe that a cost comparison, with actual utility rates is going to differ significantly from actual bills?
LP cost is very similar to NG? Not here, not anywhere close. 50% difference on average. I know a great deal about the relative costs of energy and how to compare them. What is the cost of gallon of LP in Utica? What is the cost of a therm of NG?
Of course, an electric heat pump MAY be cheaper to operate than the source fuels, especially when the heat pump is ground sourced.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
True dat - I was thinking resistance heat
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I'm going to jump in here and say the only source of energy thats going to be garunteed in the states loooong into the future is electricity.
Go with electricity.
One of the houses in this months issue of FHB would be a good model. They've got a ground source heat pump heating their DHW and their radiant heating system.
Find NRTRob here and have him design a radiant system for your house and do the heat load calcs. I was suprised that our not super insulated 3 story victorian in the mild SF Bay area only needed a boiler thats uh, 27kbtu's. Point is you might be surprised how little heat you need.
Also the GSHP can cool your house in the summer.
Like the house in the article put solar panels up to generate most of your electricty (net zero for the year).
Use a wood stove as back-up heat when the powers out or install a propane generator to power the house.
my 2 cents
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
I somehow missed reading your post until just now. Thanks for your "2 cents". Worth a lot more than that of course.
As a non-subscriber, I appreciate the reference to the FHB article. I'll look for that issue today.
Geo thermal heat pump?
The sun?
I think you are right about electricity becoming more important as a heating fuel.
Conservation - insulation. Do this first ... having a leaky/poorly insulated house is not an excuse for any new or alternative heating technology.
Fuel cells? Hi tech. Ground source heat pumps. Good choice for efficiency and longevity of the heating/cooling system ... but maybe you would be wasting a lot of the cooling capability. I'm still a big fan of wood pellets ... clean burning. Renewable resource that is much lower tech than gas, oil, propane. You can use them in furnaces, boilers and traditional wood stoves.
I was just reading this magazine I picked up called, SOLAR TODAY.
I know, give me a minute...
It's the May 2009 issue and on page 50, they got a small story and diagam of what's called, "Micro Combined Heat-Power Unit." http://www.solartoday-digital.org/solartoday/200905/
This link will get you to their digital edition. I copied it from the page in question, but use the arrow things up on the top left of the screen to navigate to page 50. It's kinda tiny to see...
The article mentions these companies that make them:
Honda. Apparently they introduced their machine last November. The article refers to the website (hondapowerequipment.com) but when I went there, I could find nothing about it.
WhisperGen in New Zealand. http://www.whispergen.com
SenerTec of Germany. http://www.senertec.com You'll need to click on the tiny USA version box in the lower right hand corner.
It's the May 2009 issue and on page 50, they got a small story and diagam of what's called, "Micro Combined Heat-Power Unit." http://www.solartoday-digital.org/solartoday/200905/
Thanks Pete!
Very informative post with a lot of useful information in those links, particularly the one above.
We've discussed most of what's in this thread before, from different perspectives, but this Micro Combined heat-power unit thing looks like a great innovation that many of us on BT will find very interesting.
Only funny thing is that it's a piston powered combustion engine at heart. Here we are, looking for ways to replace them in automobiles while other engineers are finding new ways to apply them to home use.
"............my sense is that electricity will become more important and relatively cheaper than other current fuels."
My crystal ball is certainly no better than anyone elses but here I go anyways ........ . I think you're correct in that electricity will become more important- environmental taxes of some sort on fossil fuels (cap & trade, carbon tax) will drive users, as was/is intended by lawmakers, away from fossil fuels and towards electricity. I disagree that electricty will become cheaper relative to other fuels. Our electric cooperative (WI) estimates that depending on the final form of cap and trade, our electric rates will rise betwen 20% and 30%- not surprising considering our power is purchased primarily from coal fired plants. Even if it wasn't I still expect to see big jumps in rates because of "renewable energy" mandates. Wind seems to be the primary choice and if the German experience is any indication, an expensive one- iirc they're paying around .30/kWh. I see it coming here; if anything I see the cost of electricity increasing relative to other fuels. My choice would be make the building efficient as possible and go with natural gas/propane with wood backup for reliability and self suffiency reasons.
"It is hardly too strong to say that there are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters." -- Noah Webster
Thanks for relaying the bad news from your sources. I appreciate getting the facts straight rather than relying on my poorly informed suppositions.
You might find the exchange of posts in this thread, immediately prior to ours, interesting. Talking about the gas fired combustion engine invention which provides heat, hot water and electricity. That's more interesting to me, now that you've weighed in with those prognostications.
In any event, the best idea is to super-insulate so that the heat source and it's fuel aren't nearly as significant as they have been.
Talking about the gas fired combustion engine invention >>>>>>>...
We have a local compa. that is building one, the problem is the cost right now. (Utica Boilers)
Yea, I'm afraid to ask how much they go for.
Utica Boilers is still around!? That's very cool, talk about a cornerstone of the city.
Doing well as far as I can tell. Private company with no job layoffs.
I have both natural gas and electric heat. If natural gas should get cheaper I can heat my house using the forced air furnace alone.. If electricity is cheaper it costs me less than natural gas does.
I built my in floor radiant heat system for up to 10 below without supliment Temps below that near big windows it gets mite chilly so I supliment it with natural gas or use blankets.. (my wifes choice)
Hi Hudson Valley Carpenter,
I'm planning a new super-insulated home for a 2 acre lot I own in rural NY State and I'm wondering where, in theory, we're headed for heating fuel in the foreseeable future.
At this point, without looking for scholarly research on the subject, my sense is that electricity will become more important and relatively cheaper than other current fuels.
Always good to plan ahead. But my 3 cents worth....be cautious in how you base your selections. Let's say you're concerned with resale 20 years down the road and you want it to be ready for the next buyer. As such you go with a heat pump, although wood heat is your best choice today. In such a case, I'd go with the wood for now since that's best for "you" and then put in the heat pump later. Why? Well if you put in the heat pump now, you'll be replacing it before you sell it. Might as well cover "your" needs now and put what is the best $ buzz word when you're ready to sell.....by then things will have improved even more and you'll be cutting edge for that high $ buyer.
If resale will be in 2 years then your choice leans to the buyer not you. So, figure your timeline in to your selections.
Pedro the Mule - I like wood, looks good, smells good, feels good, works good