so for some of you , Im a little guy, chump change
some of you run 50 man crews
some of you work alone
but for years I have tried hard and played clean, and maybe its beginging to pay off.
I have enough work coming at us, and people that say ” we want you” that I could run a second crew
my subs recomend us, the bank recomends us, former clients recomend us
I have quit advertising in the yellow pages, and Im still busy.
( Im not blowing my horn, jus tletting you know why I feel this way)
so whats the problem , go for it
Ive been there before. worked with a guy and we became 2 crews, then all of a sudden 3. I noticed that all Jon did/became was a guy driving from one “fire” to another. Or from one look see to another. he was getting stressed, eating wrong and getting fat, and drinking to relieve the stress. At 42 he had a heart attack, he didnt die, but lost everything, shut down and went out of biz.
and its not just construction. there are many people I know, that started small, got big, then too big and choked, crashed and burned
but here I am , enough demand to push 2 crews, and its just me,no office help, just me
and I love pounding nails, I dont want to sit inside all day or in my chevy
and its easy to say, get office help, get this , get that, but that all costs $$$$
so you put it up, up front, and what if it doesnt work
what if the economy dies out and I have to make drastic cuts , and still have a big overhead
so , how do I now its time to go for it
its easy to say “go for it,”…………… when you have nothing to loose
or “risk it all, its how dreams are made”
” a smooth sea did not make a skilled mariner”
I wondr how many of those “ideas or quotes” come from people that realy put it on the line
Replies
I keep it small. I like it that way. I know I could make more but its just not worth it to me. I feel like I would be selling out
I usually have one helper, sometimes no helper. I prefer to work alone although its nice to have an extra hand to take out the trash.
When the economy goes in the toilet its the little guy who survives. I know that from experience.
For a small operation that succeeds from word of mouth referals and who gives top notch personal service, sending in someone else to do what people expect from me alone would be the death of my business.
I've gotten to the point where scheduling is everything. All I need is to keep the calendar full and the dollars will follow. I dont need to get rich on every job, just stay busy, and happy customers will keep my bank account full
If you get help doing the paperwork, they don't need to be full time- just good at it. Look in the paper for people offering services. Define what level of help you would like(10 hrs/wk, 20 hrs/wk) and start them off slowly, so they can find out exactly what you want and need them to do. They don't need to handle any money or have account numbers. You can give them access to what you want them to have. Set the ground rules and let them know what happens if the rules are broken.
There is another option to getting bigger if what you want to do is make more money. Raise your rates.
We made the decision about 8 years ago to stay the size we are now and concentrate on doing what we do well. This allows us to make a good living and have time to pursue other interests, most especially our families. No one regrets this decision.
The only way that I would consider growing more would be if one of our long-time employees wanted more responsibility. If he wanted to do this, we could take him on as another partner who would be expected to find and produce his share of work. Since the overhead of the business almost runs itself now, there would be little additional expense in a modest expansion. It would also provide an in-house opportunity one of our most valuable assets, our best employees.
I think that is great advice. We did basicly the same thing. We have 2 trucks and 2 guys with a couple of part time laborer if needed. We went with the raise of rates. It slowed growth a little but we made more money for the work we did which of course allows us some of the luxury items and of course occasional bonuses. DanT
I was faced with this at one time of getting much bigger. I did it and had two crews plus of course subs. I split into a painting crew and a drywall finish crew and hired on more help to the two crews as necesary and layed off . All that decison did was create even more work and stress a need for four crews. An old friend told me that died a month ago that work produces work. The more work you do the more work it produces. Damn if he wasnt right . Repeatedly I found myself standing in front of someone I was working for and that person would ask if I could get to this other job to look at it or worse would tell other people and they would call by reccomendation. It seems to me that we are like hot movies that come out when we are shakin the trees. I worked for a plant here in town that had lots of sister plants . Once word got out that Tim would work during off hours and holidays to do projects, the sister plants started calling me . Suddenly I was booked every holiday and always Christmas vacation of 2 weeks though their closing for up date maintenence. I could have easily catered to them full time and dropped my other work. I was getting calls from 4 plants and two werent in driving home at night distance. Then two other plants that werent even related found out and called me to do their work or part of it . Contractors were expecting me to keep up with their work too. Instead of a trade it became a business and I didnt like the switch at the time . I never had time to work on a job and found myself working out of a pickup and my home office which wasnt equiped for such at the time. Picture a redneck in an office and meeting with clients all day and spending great amounts of time on the phone 12 hours a day. <G> It wasnt funny to me and it wasnt a damn bit fun. I made more money of course even though I was losing some. I would have never allowed those losses if I would have been able to cover the jobs with my presence. But , I wasnt there .
Since then I have learned that the right way to have handled it would be price increases since I didnt want to be Mr Big Dog. I would also use more subs now if I could get the prices up where I could make enough money over them to make it worth it. Working two large hourly crews and doing all the business for them is not my idea of fun. Using subs would be if the money was there . Seems like a catch 22 though as I was there in the first place because of price with the contractors. Yes, there are other reasons too like completeing work on time and good work, but I got in the door on price. The plants didnt seem to give a sh^t as they wanted their projects done yesterday. Oh they preached they were running a tight budget , but they never ever said no if I could complete the work. I found out they had different needs and were driven by different rules. Also I figgured competition wasnt beating their door down to beat me out as the case with contractors. Today the plants would have "got me" at a greater price than the contractors could pay. Problem then settled.
Tim Mooney
Edited 3/9/2005 7:19 am ET by TIMMOONEY52
ise... the guy driving around in the truck may be the one who actually has the right idea..
never got there myself.. although i do drive around a lot in my truck
but . i do know that if you have sytematized your business.. you can run as many crews as you want.. and the more crews, the more money..
your only limitation is yourself ( and myself )..
if you can create a position and staff it and get it to where it runs itself.. then you can multiply
have you read the "E-Myth Contractor ?"
IE: you should be the guy driving around in the truck.. while your crews run themselves..
you know the basic pyramid of small forces :
rifle team... squad... platoon.. platoon leader.... company commander
that's you.. you've got to get out of the squad and learn and develop to be the company commander...
Mike,
It's funny you should put it that way. When I thought I might be a free man again I read that book several times. It was an eye opener when combined with some soul searching I had been doing in regards to how my business had gone in the past.
When I returned to active duty it was as a Senior Section SGT. I had 15 or 20 guys to worry about and it was all hands on. Today as the #2 operations guy in a Battalion size element I've got lots of things (and people) to worry about.
I noticed about two weeks ago I was creating a system of "Systems". For every regular recurring function I have a binder with simple instructions and examples. Now I've got a Corporal and a buck SGT that I can point in the general direction of my big shelf of binders and I know they can figure it out.
I would much rather be on the ground directing a squad or in the turret of my Bradley but I guess we all have to grow up eventually.
if you wanna be First Sergeant.. you gotta delegate, right ?
and the only thing you wanna hear from the corporals is "Morning , First Sergeant !"Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
If you still like pounding nails, then I'd say keep at it. These guys are right on... charge more. Not for current customers, but anyone new you bring in.
I'm working full time as a "construction recruiter" now, and I've gotten to know -- literally -- hundreds of builders around Boston of all shapes and sizes over the years. No doubt in my mind that some of them would have been happier had they stayed in touch with their craft. Some of them, on the other hand, like the challenge of managing people and running an organization. It's a very personal choice, but a very important one.
That said, it's not an alll or nothing decision. If you don't like being bigger, you can always get smaller again. It's not a one-way membrane. I agree with the guys, though. If the money's the issue... charge more. If you find the challenge intriguing... that's another story.
Whatever you chose, good luck. Your thoughtful approach to the problem bodes well for whatever direction you end up going.
Brian
_____________________________
HomeBase______________ LLC
If you're pounding nails, then I'm assuming you are the foreman on all your jobs. If you want to split into two crews, you need another foreman, and a person good enough for that job is hard to find. Can you find someone that you would leave completely alone to run the second crew, and trust them to do it right? They have to deal with clients, subs, architects, inspectors, change orders, reading plans and ordering materials, safety, etc. etc.
It's hard to find a person like that because a lot of people with that skill level are working for themselves and competing with you, or working for your larger competitors. Depending on the market that person will want $30-35 per hour and good benefits. Your profile does not say what city you live in...
If you try to run both jobs yourself, you'll probably come up short, driving back and forth and not covering either job well enough. Your clients will soon see this and you will not be the guy they hoped for when they hired you.
This is why so many contractors are small... one crew... one and a half jobs at any given time.
and its easy to say, get office help, get this , get that, but that all costs $$$$
Isa, that statement alone, tells me that you are not in a position to expand.
If you've been establishing yourself with the proper price, you'd easily be able to afford "office" help.
I find that I can run a second crew but they will not consistently produce a profitable job. If I want to establish a steady flow of income from the second crew, I will have to work on tract homes because the second crew cannot produce if the houses change from one lot to the next. They have to be very similar and in the same sub. The problem with the tract crews is that the margins are too slim to even bother. Even when the second crew is profitable, the margin is so slim that a half years "profit" could be wiped out on one bad job.
Now you know why I dumped everyone....
Heres a prime example. Last season, we took some production homes. It wasn't "tract" housing, but very close. They were just basic two story, simple houses. Our "B" crew put it up in 200 hours. We hit our numbers perfectly with that. The next house, the guys were shooting for 200 hours again. That really disturbs me because I'd be shooting for 100 and be very disappointed if I didn't get it in 150 hours. Our "B" crew got their second one done in slightly more than 200...maybe 210..
The problem with the second crew is that the foreman needs to be a guy that wants to make at least $50 per hour, but if he is that motivated, he'll be running his own crew...another one-man-show competitor. He won't be leaving his "own" thing if he's making $50 per hour to work for you. If you hire a guy that is only motivated to make $25 per hour, he won't produce the work without your input. You've already lived that life.
Now...here's the $64 question: What would you do differntly today, from what you've done in the past?
blue
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Isa, my last post was totally negative and I suppose I should talk about the positives of running more than one crew.
An old contractor friend once told me that it was easier to run 5 crews than it was to run one crew. He explained that when one of his crews didn't have anything to go onto after finishing a job, he could simply split the crew up and send one man to each of the other crews. That helped to stabilize the crews in terms of turnover and some of those benefits are also gained on a smaller scale when you go up to two crews.
There are a lot of pros and cons to expansion. The critical element is your business plan.
blue
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Thank you all for the advice.
I have one crew now , that over the past half year has had to run itself,on the job, and the guy running it is making competative wages for our area
I would have to put togther the second crew and run it, however, I cant be there all the time, look sees, etc.
$$ for office help, ok money isnt so much an issue, it the time it takes to find the right person and "train" them to my style and constructin industry. I have tried two people already, i the last 6 months, they know it is part time, they either aren't capable or get offered full time work elsewhwer, and then I back to time spent looking and training
duplication of tools will be no problem, most things I have more then double on for the basics. 3 skill 77's, 2 full makita 18 volt sets, 3 compressors, tons of hoses, 2 senco 60's plus senco staplers finish, palms. ladders, hoses , first aid kits, radios.
my wife, of a bazillion years, and kids all say go for it. the bank has told us they will send us more work if they knew I could hanlde it. Phone hasnt stopped working.
sounds like Im talking myself into it ( wiht some of your support) and torn as some of you are saying , dont do it.
my true fear is that we have come through a depression, and I live in Oregon, as state that has been either #1 or #2 in unemployment and dead economy. I stuggled for years, and finaced myself to the hilt to survive the leand few years. Now it looks like it is turning around. Yet Im afraid to gamble and paynig off the debt of the past few years has put nme with a sizable overhead of loans etc .
today, sunday, I will reflect a lot, talk more to my family
Ill let you all know
thanks
I do have a biz plan and a long term dream/goal
thta does include, and has for many a years, expanding
the only thing to fear is fear itself ( and bill collectors and the IRS)
Where are you at in Oregon? I moved to southwest MI from Portland Oregon 3 years ago almost Exactly . Had a Framing Company there and Did well.
But always kept it pretty small and that worked well for me.But always wanted to do the same get two going . I believe the only way that could work is if you found the perfect person .And as an example to why it rarely works . I will use me . I am currently working for a framing subcontractor in Southbend Indiana I run a crew for him and enjoy doing it . I would concider myself the perfect person. I'm dedicated , consistent and do quality work. I have ran my own Business for 7 years in Oregon so I know what it takes to be in business and try to make his job easier.But after 1 year working for him things are in line to go into business again. And he pays me well I just think most of the time If a person can work for you that person would probably work for themselves-Rob
Does anyone have an example of two guys that somehow "share" a buisness?
Work under one name and one set of overheads, but run seperate crews on seperate jobs
Might work for guy who want to be on their own, but have a resource and cushion?
MrSteve, just be upfront with your intentions and let the chips fall where they lay.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
yes.... i got twin brothers who are painters.. i never know who's doing what..
one company.. two companys... i always ask who i'm dealing with on this oneMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
<<<Does anyone have an example of two guys that somehow "share" a buisness?
Work under one name and one set of overheads, but run separate crews on seperate jobs
Might work for guy who want to be on their own, but have a resource and cushion?>>>Steve, back in the early 80s, when I lived in Austin, I worked for a couple of partners who each had their own crew.We seldom saw the other crew, unless it was socially. I suppose if things had ever gotten slow for one of the crews, we could have all worked on the same house. I think the two of them had their own builders they worked for. Probably had separate businesses, and threw in together.
Allen in Santa Cruz
I am in a partnership with three partners. We are usually on three different jobs with three crews. We shift crew members around to suit ourselves and to give the employees a change of scene. We share all the business paperwork and overhead in a system that has evolved over twenty years. On large jobs (>500k)or on a tight schedule we often work together.
This is not an arrangement that you want to do with just anyone. If you are not willing to trust your partners with your financial well-being, don't even think about this. And though this arrangement has some advantages, making more money is not one of them.
I would like to pick your brain.
What makes it work?
What are some roadblocks?
How are 'final calls' made?
If you get a chance, let us (me) know.
How do you split up the $? Is it salary, an S Corp, a LLC?
-Steve
Edited 3/14/2005 11:11 pm ET by mrsteve
"What makes it work?"
Mainly, trust. Another essential is that the partners appreciate each other's strengths and accepts their weaknesses. All in all it is quite a bit like marriage.
"What are some roadblocks?"
The first roadblocks is that you don't have the personality and character requirements in the individuals. I am sure that there are a lot of technical problems which could arise but if you have the basic elements of trust and tolerance, there is not a lot that you can't work out. One major problem occurs later in the partnership when your goals may not be the same anymore. Then you have to decide whose lead you want to follow or if you want to split up.
"How are 'final calls' made?"
One any particular job there is one boss. This partner has usually, but not always, made the initial contact, has worked with the customer on design and price, supervises all the work, bills the customer and handles all warranty work. This handles 98% of all the decision making. The other 2% is usually a compromise or inertia. Our wives think we need to work on that 2% but we would rather keep our partnership intact.
"How do you split up the $? Is it salary, an S Corp, a LLC?"
We work for an hourly wage and take additional draws quarterly,1/3 to each partner. We are a regular partnership, having looked into other arrangements but not finding the advantages compelling. We have had other partners in the past whose interests we have amicably bought out.
Again, I emphasize that our partnership is like a marriage. But without sex or children to hold you together. A look at marriage statistics should give you an idea of your chances for success.
Schelling,>>>"Our wives think we need to work on that 2% but we would rather keep our partnership intact."Im' about 7 months into my first business related partnership and your words are so true. My wife can get worked up about a few small things but fails to see the big picture. Can be frustrating at times but I also try to see it from her point of view as well.
Jon Blakemore
My advice is "don't let the wife know anything about your business. If she wants to run a business, she can file a DBA and start her own!
Of course, my wife is a worry wart.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!