What is top pay for a high end builder/ carpenter and where is it? Would appreciate any feedback , Dusty
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1/4 of a mil a year. and its in yer pocket when you do your own houses.
Why for a top guy work for anyone else?????
Be self employed
Donald Trump
My life is my passion!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I personally couldn't have imagined my own personal top. I realize it's only the existing top and that any real top is whatever my top ability ( which I strive to always raise) can command.
I quess that's my way of saying the skies the limit.
Terry
this is America
Last time I checked, there is no limit
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Top end: Where is it? Wherever you are. What is it? Whatever you think it is.
SamT
Don't get carried away or you'll end up being one of those stinking Rich the Dems hate so much.
Joe H
Okay.
For a builder (business person who's products are tangable structures.........sky's the limit
For an employed carpenter, $90k to $115k. That's high end
I've been thinking about this for a while. Also contemplated starting a new thread so as not to hijack, but I think my questions will mesh with Dusty's.
Let me pose three different scenarios, all with a focus in remodeling.
1. Carpenter (employed by another, gets a W2 in February of each year) at the top of his game. For sake of argument, all major tools (he supplies belt and some hand tools) and a company truck are provided. He is a lead that manages one crew (not a super or PM) and works alongside them for the most part. Typical health and pension benefits. What is a good wage for him, and what is your location.
2. Artisan contractor. Self-employed, works by himself or with one helper. For sake of reference I would compare him to Jim Blodgett or Stan Foster (two that come to mind). Again, good compensation and location.
3. GC. Rarely (if ever) works in the field. Runs 1-3 jobs at a time. Is on top of the business side of the trades.
I'm not asking for the top wages possible (ie specialist who is highly in demand making $350k/yr. etc.) but what is considered good for your area.
Jon Blakemore
To All,
I love this topic. Where I'm coming from is high end Concord ,MA $75 an hour, good money to be sure , and almost not enough to live in that town. Moved to northern VT , where the top pay is $15-$25 per hour, almost a livable wage , I know it is socioecomomic , My question literally is , Where are the gold towns in America? Thanks Dusty
I've been hoping this topic would garner more interest than it has.
Dusty,
When you say "$75/hr/", do you mean that's what they charge, or do true w2 employees really make that much? That seems very generous, but as you say the cost of living is much higher.
Come on, anybody else care to share some numbers? I'm not looking for your numbers, just a representative sample.
Jon Blakemore
OK, I'll take a wild stab at this one, but with a disclaimer, because if I say ten dollars an hour I know some homeowner is going to try and hiurte his work done for ten dollars an hour with absolutely no understanding that taxes, insurance, overhead and profit will bump it up to say twenty dollars billed out.
1) lead man on wages with bennies
$20 - 24 hourly
2) artisan single
$30 - 40
3) GC with three jobs always in the hopper
$100K to 140K
The latter is an educated guess. I'm somewhere between two and three and don't normally have too much trouble paying income tax on seventy grand.
Hard to pinpoint the latter because once a guy is getting into that level, he has incorporated and keeps the money in circulation in a different way - not all income. Always going back out on the next job and materials and insurances...the income is on paper more than in the pocket.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,
I appreciate your response. It is not my intent to give the clients with no business sense fodder to beat contractors down on price, but I can appreciate your concerns that it might happen.
Rather, I think it would be good for all here to have a rough understanding of what is considered decent in other markets/locations. I am not trying to find out what everybody makes. But when I see somebody posting that they charge $18/hr. to do repair work I just shake my head and wait for Sonny Lykos to pounce on them. It is imperative that this information be examined critically. COLA, different market conditions, exchange rates, market segments, etc. all come into play. Still I don't buy that Naples FL can support $85/hr., while AR can only support $20/hr.
Hopefully I'm not asking the "how much is a house" question that comes up too often here, but my intent is that with the specifications I listed we can get a reasonable survey of reasonable compensation around the country.
Jon Blakemore
"...the income is on paper more than in the pocket"
Like, money that's yours but you don't get to keep it? Or are you talking about working capital that you leave in the business account and never pay to yourself until you close the shop?
Yes, when every job is bigger than the last one, the "profit" ios bigger but the next one requires even more working capital. tools, etc.
Or when i was doing the roofing, seasonally, April 15 dried me up, I went from job to job bigger and bigger all summer building back up and climaxed in October, then suffered from afterplay all winter.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
let'see ...
I'm in Pittsburgh ... nice town with a fiarly low cost of living ...
(so .. if these numbers jive .. we're doing way better than Pif and his high island cost of life!) .... all "top of their game" ....
1) ... lead carp ... good wage is $20/hr ... great is $25 ... very uncommon ... but not unheard of. The $20 is pretty uncommon too .. but we're talking a top guy here that knows what he's worth and demands it, right?
2) I charge out at $45/hr. plus materials ... probably works out to more like $30/hr when the actual time spent is divided into the time bid. Add 15% on top of all materials. In theory .... after deductions ... before taxes ... $45K/yr is realistic.
3) .... $60 to $80 to $100K is possbile. I'd guess $50K to $60K more likely ....
I think that compares to what Pif said ...
and my 2 br alley house cost $30K ...
and we're looking at moving into one of the better/older neighborhoods into a 3 br/2 ba ... hope to get a fixer upper for under $100K(actually planning $85K bid on one I just looked at) .. that'll resale after reno(about $45K my cost) for right around $150K.
$250K buys a lot of house around these parts ....
some places .. that's starter home money.
Now .. for the "average" ...
lead carp is $15-18/hr.
sub rate is $30-40/hr
GC pulls down about $40-$50-$60K.
Jeff
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Dusty,
The top has no end. The bigger the city, the bigger the pay BUT the bigger the cost of living. You'll never make it to the top by the hour.
I'm a trim and cabinet sub. Carpenters on our crews make between $16 and $25 an hour. I don't make an hourly wage and I'm in the tax bracket that should make me LOVE the president. But yet, I don't. I think he's an idiot although he's trying to buy my favor with tax breaks. I can't be bought. But I'm getting off the subject here.
A good GC in Dallas makes about 16% on a house. Doesn't matter if it's a $100k house or a $20mil house.
You do the math.
By-the-hour goes through the drive through on Friday. The real money makers walk inside the bank a few times a month.
Ed. Williams
Edited 3/12/2004 6:18 pm ET by GACC Dallas
smiles,
Is that the measure? Walking into the bank?
I hate the drive ups. Always like to show my face so they are used to seeing the boss. I don't make the really big money, but I approach bankers like any other sub. They are there to do me a service. I'm not there to beg. That attitude of confidence wins more loans than anything else.
But I really do believe everyone should know their banker. maybe that's another thread. I just went off on the visualization you created with that idiom.
Glad to see you here again more Ed
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
but like somebody said, it depends on wher you located. A person making $10-14 hour here can live high on the hog. while those in Ca. be minimun wages.
Right!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Hey Piffin,
I've seen you at JLC some. I like it over there. More like a small town. Like Breaktime used to be.
I've been at my bank for 14 years now. It seems that every year or so I get a new "personal" banker. I don't think I've ever had the same account officer for more than 18 months. They move around about as much as carpenters. Mostly they want me to invest, invest, invest. So they can make a commission, commission, commission. I don't borrow money, so I don't really need them.
And BTW, I do use the drive through. I don't make THAT much money. We've got a big company now (well, big to me is 27 employees) and so we gross a lot. But it cost a lot to run the business.
Regards,
Ed.
I read more than post over at JLC. For some reason, it takes much longer for pages to load from there on my PC. Some of the forums over there are pretty dry stuff too with less of the personal touch I get from here.
Know what you mean about the career bank officers moving to the corporate tune. I grew up with the idea the a Banker is the big cahunna but they are more salespersons now than managers. They are "selling" a loan and the fee is their commission.
story - what goes around comes around.
My first loan officewr here - I met in a strange setting. Atypical at least. When we moved here from Colorado, I had co-signed a note for a stepdaughter out there to help her get started with her first car. When she defaulted on it, they wanted cash now and I didn't have it so I went in to this local bank here where we had just started a checking account three months before to negotiate a loan top cover it by using my autos as collateral. Now remember, we had just moved so no local track record or work history. I go in and explain the situation and reason for the loan. Steve misunderstood slightly. He said, "Let me get this right, Just to be sure, You want to loan money to a young lady out in Colorado, and you DON'T want your wife to know about it?"
I immediately saw how he got the wrong impression and almost fell off my chair laughing, and then straightened it all right out and got the loan signed the same day. He had a sense of humour too.
going on around, after he was my loan officer for another five years, he promoted out of town to another branch as the bank grew. I went through another two or three loan officers on their wqay up or out, and then he came back to the base camp as President of the whole shebang. We still share a wink and smile over that first miscue, even though I stop off at another desk for my loans. And that young carpenter who came in to barrow thirteen hundred from hiom way back then, now manages various accounts that push between half a million and 800 thousand dollars through his institution every year.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I attempt not to work on an hourly basis but if I do it is generally $63/hour with the client paying parking etc., there is a 3 hour minimum and 8 hour minimum after 5.5 hours. Depending on who the helper is it rangers from $23/hour and up that I'll charge them out at. This is for Boston, Massachusetts with some work in Brookline/Newton and other areas close by. For the area I live in the $63/hour is a poverty wage if I wasn't making money on materials/bids. I sometimes do jobs for non-profits as a donation or for arts organizations for $23-29/hour.
-Ray
A different take, DIY intake comparisons: (re. FHB survey that 40+% or so of BT is DIY)
Built own house (every nail and shovel of dirt) in 71-74, essentially full time 2nd job for 3 years. Land aside, built for $15K, assessed re. $600K, that works out to $200 K a year in today's $$ for a 2nd job. Passed up then buying 40 Ac next door for $40 K then (no money or extensive credit when young you know!) that has recently had houses built on it sold for total of $80+ Mil - what's 16% of that, and figure the potential return on that for just getting older and 1 hour of guessing right when you were 30 .
Latest remodel 3 years ago, made 60K on about $1000 materials (mostly salvage + concrete @ near retail) plus about 300 hrs labor = $200 hour. Tax free gain 'cause son and DIL & GD/GS lived in the house over 2 years per IRS rules - ya gotta play the game also. Some was likely due to slight general housing increase in same period which has ehuberantly accelerated; so, likely could have been another $40 K if held for another 3 years with NO additional labor.
Moral: work & invest for yourself when you can as has been said many times here before.
I do carp/elec/plumbing/hvac/dozing/auto repair/accounting/everything else (except Dental/medical-some of that even- and rocket science) as a hobby and 'cause me am dirt cheap, but work only for self and family, but that has paid/saved pretty doggone well as a hobby.
Ed-
Did you get my email?
Bob
DustyBoard,
Here, UP Michigan, N.E. Wis. rural area. Top quality lead man high teens to 20/hr, as a W-2 Employee. Most contractors billing at 25-38/hr. Well known GC probably 100K with a 3 or 4 man crew. Small GC, such as me, about half that, give or take 20K. Average new home costs less than 200K. Nice older homes can be bought for 75-90K. Rural real estate about $1000 per acre, on larger parcels, 20-30 times that on smaller parcels in near town sub-divisions.
Brudoggie
Bob,
Yeah, I got it at work and sent you a reply. Check out the Carrollton School District. They're supposed to be the best around - next to the Park Cities. Highland Park and University Park is where the upper crust lives.
Garland and Richardson are both OK, but Dallas is VERY diversified. You'll find good and bad just about anywhere you go. I don't have any kids, so I don't have any first hand knowledge, but they say the Dallas School District is the pits and that Carrollton is the best.
There are a lot of private schools as well.
Ed.
After living in SoCal for the last 30 years, 20 of that working,here's sort of the going rates. Of course there are exceptions.
Most cabinet makers I know, $15-20 per hour with little or no benefits. Beginners,$8 per hour and many years to learn before getting more(The Union is an exception for these rates). Most of these guys are shop/trim carpenters and know little/nothing about other trades. Most live in lessericome/more affordable housing areas and commute 2-3 hours, or more, a day to get good pay.
I have friends in NoCal and the going rate is $45-$65 per hour working for themselves and one friend charging $60/hour for cash(he's the tax rebel). Even at some of these rates, housing is still not affordable and they still commute.
on West.Wash. coast, I think the going rate for a experienced carpenter is around $15/hour and they can do most of the trades, or they think they can. Housing runs around $100-$175k for a newer home. One of the local contractors charges $35/hour for hourly/extras on a job. Doesn't seem to be a bad deal for a homeowner, as long as you get one of his "experienced" guys