I just finished a kitchen remodel, which I showed pics of in the photo gallery. Nice project, nice customers, job went as smoothly as any I’ve ever done. Finished on Friday, I pick up my final check on Monday. Friday afternoon I went to the office and reviewed the numbers. I’ll make out pretty well on this one, and frankly, I’m grateful to have anything right now, since a lot of my colleagues in town are watching Oprah and waiting for the phone to ring.
Here are some of my observations and conclusions.
I bid job at 23k. Extras 4k. They bought appliances out of their pocket. They hauled off all demolition debris and jobsite debris. Bidding I was head-to-head against a Kitchen remodel franchise with a good reputation, a beautiful showroom, and a high overhead. Customer said they picked me because the franchise: Got pushy on trying to get them to borrow and spend over their budget; raised the price after the initial estimate, without coming out to the jobsite to look at the existing conditions; wouldn’t let them purchase their own appliances.
Here’s where I did lose some potential income:
Right away, I found the walls to be sanded plaster over buttonboard, with chicken wire reinforcement in all the tile areas. Which means demo was like taking stucco off the walls, and sheetrock took two layers of rock to get the thickness to match. Couldn’t really go run and up my price after one day of demo, so I had to swallow that pill. Lesson learned – figure in a contingency budget (8% of total bid would have covered me on this one).
My cabinet guy billed me for $400 more than his bid. I’ve done a ton of work with this guy, always on a verbal. He said he figured oak, and customer wanted alder, so it was an upcharge. Problem is, even he admitted that it was always alder, from the beginning. But said he missed it, and still had to charge the $400 extra. I could have argued the point, but his price was low enough I knew he bid this one with little margin, and I didn’t want to spoil a good working relationship over a couple hundred bucks. I ate it, and paid. Lesson learned – get bids in writing next time.
Tile sub bid to handle thresholds at doorways/transition to existing wood or carpet in adjacent rooms – but once he got into it, he ran over on his time, and since he comes from out of town, I didn’t want to hold him over extra days for something that really isn’t his expertise as much as it is mine anyway. I spent about a half day finessing the transitions. Also, since I could see him struggling with the job, I jumped in and worked a half day with him gratis – cutting tile while he laid.
And I gave him a couple c-notes bonus, which I had promised if he made the customer happy, because she was pretty picky. Where he and I both erred on this was the upcharge for a diamond layout vs. square to the walls layout. We both underestimated the extra work/materials with the diamond pattern. Lesson learned: I’m thinking diamond pattern should be about 30-35% upcharge over square layout.
During tile, customer got weird about tlle behind the freestanding oven – I didn’t bid it that way, just to tile past the edges. But I hate for customers to get unhappy over a stupid detail that will never show, so I thought about it, and just decided to eat it. It was only about $100 difference anyway. Lesson learned: again, a contingency factor in the final budget for niggling little details like this.
Granite countertop was another bit of a sore spot. Granite contractor is my friend, and I park my office trailer at his yard rent free, so I bend over backwards to work with him. His guys work late, so I wasn’t on site during the install. But the granite joint in the corner of an L was real obvious – not bad looking, just real obvious. Butt joint instead of miter when granite had a definite “grain”.
So customer wasn’t thrilled, but said she could live with it, if he’d come out and polish the joint a little better, and grind out a few little bumps at another joint by the sink. The installer (not the contractor, but his installer) would not come out and fix this stuff, and I had a deadline. So I hired someone out of my own pocket – $130 cash, and then I sealed and polished it myself the next day, and customer was happy. Lesson learned: I HAVE to be there for a critical install like granite – and I have to have a rapport with the installer himself, not just the contractor. And I have to discuss the seams in detail before installation begins.
Wall-mount hood/vent. I lost at leas a half freakin day on this thing, partly because the directions were missing several pages. Customers finally got me the complete directions, and then it was no problem. But also because it required backing in several key spots – so I had to open the finished wall up, and add backing. Lesson learned: wall mount hoods are more expensive to install than cabinet mount!
Paint – I don’t know why, but the old mustard yellow paint job took 4 coats of off-white to cover. I didn’t figure that much paint in my bid. So I ate it a little bit on painting labor and materials. I’m not sure what the lesson here is, but I think its: Bid higher when the new color is lighter than the existing, and bid higher when the existing hasn’t been painted in 20 years!
Extra for installing new back door. I haven’t submitted this invoice yet, but the thing is, this is an extra at the end of the job. And its pricey, for a variety of reasons. T&M, so it should be no problem. But I hate to hit them with a big extra at the very end, that might change their positive view of the project, so I’m thinking of discounting a bit. I broke it down, for them (and myself) to see why it cost so much.
1. $300 Purchase new stain-grade six panel solid core exterior grade door, weatherstripping, threshold, door sweep, paint (to match existing), stain (to match cabinets), clear polymer
2. $10 Remove old door
3. $15 Remove old tin-channel nailed weatherstripping from jamb
4. $50 Repair jamb from removal of weatherstripping (spackle, sand, caulk, and paint)
5. $75 Cut new door to match size of opening
6. $75 Mortise new door for hinge locations to match door jamb, install hinges, and hang door in existing opening
7. $10 Cleanup existing hinges and install
8. $50 Mortise new door for lockset
9. $30 Install new lockset and modify latch hole and strike plate to accept new lockset
10. $40 Repair jamb from rabbeted anti-theft latch (fill with wood, spackle, sand, caulk, and paint)
11. $145 Sand and stain interior of door, 2 coats oil-based stain and 3 coats polymer clear with fine-grit wetsanding and wipedown between coats
12. $125 Sand, prime, and paint exterior, 3 coats exterior latex enamel, sand lightly between coats
13. $75 Install new oak threshold, with aluminum weatherstrip threshold on top, cut bottom of door to accept threshold
14. $45 Sand, prime and paint exterior jamb and wood threshold
15. $10 Install new aluminum door-sweep weatherstrip along bottom edge of door
16. $50 Install new aluminum and rubber compression-seal weatherstrip along top and sides of door jamb
17. $50 Mortise door for security deadbolt
18. $10 Install new single cylinder deadbolt
19. $25 Mortise jamb for deadbolt and strike plate
20. $10 Install deadbolt security cup and strike plate
$1200.00 total labor and materials complete
Lesson learned: retrofitting new stain-grade door to existing jamb, with all new weatherstripping and threshold is expensive – warn customers ahead of time on a T&M extra.
So total price on this one is about 27k. My take, for contracting/supervising, is about 8k, and that includes about 55 hrs. of actual labor also.
CaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Edited 3/30/2008 9:53 am by Huck
Replies
I couldn't make it thru your whole post, but I wanna know... when you "bid" a job like that, are all of the details on a set of plans? Are they in writing somewhere? Are they spelled out on your proposal or your contract docs? Or are they verbal with the owner? There seems to be an awful lot of detail, some of which cost you money. How was all of that defined before you agreed on a price?
when you "bid" a job like that, are all of the details on a set of plans? Are they in writing somewhere?
Here is my contract for this job:
GENERAL SCOPE OF WORK DESCRIPTION <!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Remove existing cabinets and countertop (homeowner to remove upper cabinets for re-use in garage)<!----><!---->
Frame new pass-thru at kitchen/dining room wall, 48†wide by 44†high approx.<!----><!---->
Remove existing 4’0†x 6’8†bi-fold door into den, replace with standard hinged door and jamb<!----><!---->
Remove existing ceiling light fixture, add 5 new recessed-can fluorescent lights in ceiling<!----><!---->
Re-do all electrical outlets and switches in kitchen<!----><!---->
Change location of sink from wall-mount to countertop mount<!----><!---->
Install new garbage disposal under sink<!----><!---->
Install new alder wood cabinets, stain and lacquer, melamine interior.<!----><!---->
Install new oven and hood (tie-in to existing functional ductwork in attic)<!----><!---->
Install new granite countertop, with tile backsplash<!----><!---->
New vinyl floorcovering, coved at walls and cabinets.<!----><!---->
Owner to purchase oven/cooktop, hood, sink, faucet, garbage disposal.<!----><!---->
Prep and paint, latex enamel, kitchen walls and ceiling<!----><!---->
Homeowner to dispose of demolition waste.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Labor and materials, complete: $23,100.00<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
STANDARD EXCLUSIONS: This Agreement does not include any work or materials not specifically listed in this contract. Floor repair by dishwasher, appliances, cabinet pulls if desired. <!----><!---->
<!----><!---->
DATE OF WORK COMMENCEMENT AND SUBSTANTIAL COMPLETION Commence work: 01-29-2008. Construction time through substantial completion: Approximately 8 to 10 weeks, including minor delays and adjustments for minor delays caused by: holidays; inclement weather; accidents; but not including delays caused by shortage of labor or materials; additional time required for Change Order and additional work; delays caused by Owner, Owner’s design professionals, agents, and separate contractors; and other delays unavoidable or beyond the control of the Contractor. <!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
DEVIATION FROM SCOPE OF WORK: Any alteration or deviation from the Scope of Work referred to in this Agreement will be treated as Additional Work under this Agreement resulting in an additional charge to Owner of $75/man.hr., with a markup of 20% on any material purchases necessitated by said changes. Contractor and Owner may execute a Change Order for this Additional Work. Contractor to supervise, coordinate, and charge for all Additional Work not covered under this Agreement, i.e., caused by concealed conditions, and all work of Owner’s separate contractors who are working on site at same time as Contractor (any time in between when Contractor has commenced work and when the work is 100% complete by Contractor), and who require the time and attention of the Contractor. The amount of the Additional Work will be reasonably determined by the Contractor. <!----><!---->
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PAYMENT SCHEDULE: 10% deposit due at signing of contract. As long as work is progressing weekly, payment shall be made to contractor in the amount of $3000.00 per week, for the following 6 consecutive weeks. Final payment due upon completion. Interest in the amount of 1% per month will be charged on all late payments under this Agreement. <!----><!---->
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PAYMENT OF CHANGE ORDERS/ADDITIONAL WORK: Payment for Additional Work is due upon completion of either all or part of the Additional Work and submittal of invoice by Contractor. <!----><!---->
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Contractor shall have the right to stop all work on the project and keep the job idle if payments are not made to Contractor strictly in accordance with the Payment Schedule in this Agreement, or if Owner repeatedly fails or refuses to furnish Contractor with access to the job site and/or product selections or information necessary for the advancement of Contractor’s work. Simultaneous with stopping work on the project, the Contractor must give Owner written notice of the nature of Owner’s material breach of this Agreement and must also give the Owner a 14-day period in which to cure this breach of contract. Owner to follow this same notice procedure with Contractor if Owner alleges Contractor is in material breach of this Agreement. If work is stopped due to any of the above reasons (or for any other material breach of contract by Owner) for a period of 14 days, and the Owner has failed to take significant steps to cure his default, then Contractor may, without prejudicing any other remedies Contractor may have, give written notice of termination of the Agreement to Owner and demand payment for all completed work and materials ordered through the date of work stoppage, and any other reasonable loss sustained by Contractor. Thereafter, Contractor is relieved from all other contractual duties, including all Punch List and warranty work. <!----><!---->
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DISPUTE RESOLUTION AND ATTORNEY’S FEES Any controversy or claim arising out of or related to this Agreement involving an amount less than $5,000 (or the maximum limit of the Small Claims court) must be heard in the Small Claims Division of the Municipal Court in the county where the Contractor’s office is located. Any dispute over the dollar limit of the Small Claims Court arising out of this Agreement shall be submitted to an experienced private construction arbitrator that shall be mutually selected by the parties to conduct a binding arbitration in accordance with the arbitration laws of the state where the project is located. The arbitrator shall be either a licensed attorney or retired judge who is familiar with construction law. If the parties can not mutually agree on an arbitrator within 30 days of written demand for arbitration, then either of the parties shall submit the dispute to binding arbitration before the American Arbitration Association in accordance with the Construction Industry Rules of the American Arbitration Association then in effect. Judgment upon the award may be entered in any Court having jurisdiction thereof. The prevailing party in any legal proceeding related to this Agreement shall be entitled to payment of reasonable attorney’s fees, costs, and post-judgment interest at the legal rate. <!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
ENTIRE AGREEMENT, SEVERABILITY, AND MODIFICATION This Agreement represents and contains the entire agreement and understanding between the parties. Prior discussions or verbal representations by Contractor or Owner that are not contained in this Agreement are not a part of this Agreement. In the event that any provision of this Agreement is at any time held by a Court to be invalid or unenforceable, the parties agree that all other provisions of this Agreement will remain in full force and effect. Any future modification of this Agreement should be made in writing and executed by Owner and Contractor. <!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
RIGHT OF CANCELLATION The Home Solicitation Sales Act requires a seller of home goods or services to give the buyer three days to think about whether or not to buy the offered goods or services. To cancel, the buyer need only give the contractor written notice of his or her intent not to be bound by the contract—there is no penalty or obligation on the part of the buyer. Under the law when the contract is canceled the seller can be required to return the entire contract amount and, if a service has been provided, to return the consumer’s property to the way it was before the contract, and return any materials to the contractor that were applied to the project. The purpose of the three-day right to cancel is to protect consumers from the pressure they often feel from door-to-door solicitors. Unless the contract is negotiated at the contractor’s place of business, the buyer qualifies for the 3-day right to cancel.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
The Exception - Service and Repair Contracts One major exception to the “three-day right to cancel†is a ‘Service and Repair’ contract that covers emergency repairs or services that are requested by the consumer on short notice. The right to a three-day notice is automatically canceled the moment the contract is signed and the contractor begins working on a service and repair contract.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
I have read and understood, and I agree to, all the terms and conditions contained in the Agreement above. <!----><!---->
<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
___________ __________________________ <!----><!---->
DATE CONTRACTOR’S SIGNATURE <!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
___________ __________________________ <!----><!---->
DATE OWNER’S SIGNATURE <!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
___________ __________________________ <!----><!---->
DATE OWNER’S SIGNATURE <!----><!---->
View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Specs are king. CLearly written, defined specs take alot of the pain out of charging for extras.
"oh, you would like your tile on a diamond pattern? Let me check the specs to see what was priced." EXTRA.
In regards to the granite contractor, the lesson to me seems to be less about having to be onsite when that gets installed or about having a good rapport with the installer and MORE about having a sub who you can hold accountable. You park your trailer on his property so you can't do that. Also, holding off on your final payment until the customer gives their approval gives you some more leverage in the matter.
I like this type of post. It's something to learn from.
I was going to do the exact same exercise (don't know if I would post, but why not?) after I complete my flip. Already keeping notes on things I missed or what took longer than expected, and what went well.
I'd like to see more posts like this.
Also, it's amazing how $30 here, $10 there, $50 over there can add up. It's like Sam's Club: nothing in the cart is more than $12, but I just spent $300!
On my flip, I realized this from the beginning, so not only am I really scrutinizing expenses, the same works in the other direction. Save $50 here, $15 there, and it adds up and helps offset the unexpected.
BTW, I think any yellow color is hard to paint over. Tinted primer may help.Pete Duffy, Handyman
it's amazing how $30 here, $10 there, $50 over there can add up. It's like Sam's Club: nothing in the cart is more than $12, but I just spent $300!
Yup. My helper/office girl thinks I should be charging for every little extra. My wife says No, you'll only tick 'em off if you do that. The balance is probably somewhere inbetween.View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Yup. My helper/office girl thinks I should be charging for every little extra. My wife says No, you'll only tick 'em off if you do that. The balance is probably somewhere inbetween.
Caught between two women ... dangerous waters there!
LOL ... my second in charge is a woman also, but luckily I keep her and the missus separated as much as possible!
>>>LOL ... my second in charge is a woman also, but luckily I keep her and the missus separated as much as possible!Reminds me of an old toast. "To our wives and girlfriends. May they never meet!"
Specs are king. CLearly written, defined specs take alot of the pain out of charging for extras... In regards to the granite contractor, the lesson to me ... having a sub who you can hold accountable. You park your trailer on his property so you can't do that. Also, holding off on your final payment until the customer gives their approval gives you some more leverage in the matter.
Yes, the contract spelled out the finishes. A lot of people missed it, but I didn't lose because of not charging extra for the tile - I lost because I didn't charge enough extra.
I like my granite guy. He has been a friend for years. He does great work, just going through a tough period right now. We all have our down times. I will continue to use him for glass (his original specialty), and I may or may not use him for granite - but if I do, I will meet the installer first, and I will supervise like a hawk.
Here is a copy of my extras (minus the door install spelled out in the original post)
Repairs to rotted floor at location of dishwasher……………………….$650.00<!----><!----><!---->
Add 220 electrical outlet for new hybrid stove………………………….$450.00<!----><!---->
Move plumbing line to gas dryer inside wall behind stove………….…$425.00<!----><!---->
New toilet in downstairs bathroom (materials only)……………….….….$92.05<!----><!---->
Framing & ducting for cooktop vent………………………………………$200.00<!----><!---->
Upcharge for diamond pattern tile floor, upgrades to backsplash……$1800.00<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
<!----> <!---->
Labor and materials, complete: ………………………………………$3617.05<!----><!---->
View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Huck,
Say 15% O & P =$4,050
Leaves $3950.00 / 55 hrs. = $71.80 hr.
Doesn't seem to bad to me at all. Beats a lot of guys here hourly rate.
You did alright, congratulations.
$71.80 hr... Doesn't seem to bad to me at all. Beats a lot of guys here hourly rate. You did alright, congratulations.
Thank you! I don't have my notes with me, but my figures showed I came out at $51/hr., after subtracting 10% profit and 10% overhead. Which is good, I'm happy with it. Some people missed my point - I'm not griping about this job - like I said, the people were a pleasure to work for, and the job went as smooth and quick as any ever do. All I wanted to do was review the lessons learned so I can (hopefully) do better next time.
View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Thanks for sharing, it is very good to sit back and reflect like that. In the Army we used to have to do an "After Action Report". Another thing we had to do sometimes was an "Operational Report of Lessons Learned".
At the time we complained about the paperwork but actually learned a great deal from it. It was probably some sort of leftover from McNamara's operational research and systems analysis weenies.
Probably should have named the thread "where I left money on the table".
Edited 3/30/2008 5:30 pm ET by rasconc
Probably should have named the thread "where I left money on the table".
Yes you're right. Because I didn't lose on this one, but I did leave some money on the table, when all was said and done. That's what I'm trying to work on. Too bad they won't let me edit the title of the thread!View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
question. why should the subs like counter and tile, make money for their mistake but not you.
why should the subs like counter and tile, make money for their mistake but not you
I should clarify: I did make money on the tile and granite, but maybe not as much as I could have. I cut my subs slack in certain areas - I know both subs in this case bid the job tight, so they ate it some also. That's when I tend to step in and take some of the heat for them.
I just figure as the general, its my job to step up to the plate and take responsibility when there are problems. I could be more hardball, but then it can be a morale killer, so I work with my sub's to try to make sure they make out ok on my jobs. For this reason, most my sub's tend to be very loyal to me, and bend over backwards to keep my customers happy. I guess its just a business philosophy that I'm comfortable with.
I do agree with some posters who indicated you can't be too much of a "nice guy", tho', in regards to charging for extras. I did one job recently where that bit me hard, and nearly put me out of business. So I'm learning as I go.View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Just want to echo what Derr 82 said. The detail and no bs explanation is really really informative. thanks.
And- $50-70/hr. (depending how you count) while doing nice work and being "too nice"? During a recession? Could be worse, right?
k
Good stuff. I appreciate you sharing. I do the same thing so it is educational to learn what and how others go through the process and what your take is on how things occur.
It is really interesting to me that your price is similar to what mine would have been for the same job and type. I am surprised as California prices are typically viewed as more than central Ohio numbers. Yours are more, just not a ton more is what I am saying.
I do the contingency thing, 10% generally. Especially the more disciplines involved or the more sub issues or the more rooms involved. One of my weak areas is to quote drywall work as though I can do all 3 rooms at the same time and finish at the same time. When working in an occupied home it almost always is broken into stages and that adds time.
On the paint issue do you use high hide primer? We do in those situations as I believe the labor savings offsets the material costs to get earlier coverage. The plaster deal is easy to be fooled by for sure.
Tile guy, cabinet guy, and granite installer I would have handled the same way. But not forget in the future. And never use the granite installer again.
All in all I think it came out well. I think your end numbers are solid. But then again what I think won't pay the bills lol. Hope you were as happy and enjoyed your job as much as I did! I really learned a lot all the way around. Thanks again! DanT
Good stuff. I appreciate you sharing. I do the same thing so it is educational to learn what and how others go through the process and what your take is on how things occur.
Thanks, thats all I'm trying to do - educate myself on how I can do better next time, and share with others what I'm learning. I've learned a LOT here on BT, from Blue, Sonny, Buck, Frenchy, and lot of others too.
It is really interesting to me that your price is similar to what mine would have been for the same job and type. I am surprised as California prices are typically viewed as more than central Ohio numbers. Yours are more, just not a ton more is what I am saying.
I was bidding against a franchise - I found out their bid was $40k, including appliances, but with a vinyl floor and Corian countertops.
I do the contingency thing, 10% generally. Especially the more disciplines involved or the more sub issues or the more rooms involved. One of my weak areas is to quote drywall work as though I can do all 3 rooms at the same time and finish at the same time. When working in an occupied home it almost always is broken into stages and that adds time.
I too tend to overestimate my ability to get it all done at once, when it seldom works out that way. 10% would have worked out great for me - so next time, its 10% profit, 10% overhead, 10% contingency.
On the paint issue do you use high hide primer? We do in those situations as I believe the labor savings offsets the material costs to get earlier coverage. The plaster deal is easy to be fooled by for sure.
I'll have to try that. I used good quality primer tinted to match the paint, and it still took 3 coats after that!
Tile guy, cabinet guy, and granite installer I would have handled the same way. But not forget in the future. And never use the granite installer again.
I might give the granite contractor another chance, but never that installer. He's out.
All in all I think it came out well. I think your end numbers are solid. But then again what I think won't pay the bills lol. Hope you were as happy and enjoyed your job as much as I did! I really learned a lot all the way around. Thanks again! DanT
Yep, wish I could get more jobs like this one!View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
To huck and all responders.
Thanks for the fantastic lesson. I'm in transition as a new contractor,, finding his way in the new world of pricing. Nothing big yet,, but some interesting stuff coming up. I always hate coming up with the pricing,, and always insist on t&m,, but have started to change, and like the difference at the end of the day/week/ whatever.
Anyway,, loved the discussion,,and THANKS!
dave
Its a horse thing!
I have a buddy that always worked T and M.
he's now a captive sub to another buddy. All legit ... true sub status ..
but ... he's never gonna grow or go anywhere.
all because he's afraid to bid.
and you don't learn till you get burned a coupla times.
only way to learn is to get out there and do it.
my advice ... just do it.
be smart ... but do it.
and it won't always work out in your favor.
but sooner or later ... it'll get easier.
pretty much at least once a year I get a "referal" from my buddy ... someone remembers his name as he does good work ... and he's afraid to give a bid ... so I call and bid it. He's good for one or two jobs a year for me ... he turns the work down because he's got no clue how to price it.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Thanks Jeff,
Did my operating expenses figuring the other day,, truck, gas,cellphone, tool misc(like blades, repairs, something to go into the twenty grand of #### I have filling up my manshack), liablity insurance, disability insurance, commercial truck insurance, etc.
Then did a little figure on by the day,, like what does it cost me to run for the day,,, what about me and a decent helper. Then both for a half day. Now I'm playing with those numbers,, and just breaking down jobs into days, or half days, or some sort of exponent of that. Then add in a 15% profit/whoops factor,, and record and learn.
Jeff,, It makes my guts hurt to figure it all out,, but noticed another post about estimating,, using excel. Might take the hurt out.
The big one for me is not breaking it down. Job by price. I wanna feel honest at the end of the day,,and make some money, and enjoy life. I also enjoy being a sub,, just let me show up and do what I'm told. And sleep.
I also do work for Multiply chemically sensitive people-- bubble people,, which doesn't really pay well,, keeps you up all night sorting threw details and researching,, and when you make a mistake,, someones kidneys go into failure because you grabbed in a rush the tremco 830 caulking instead of the tremflex 834.
Anyway, every reply helps,, and thanks for the support. Need to keep it all in the book,, and learn! Learn,, and learn.
dave
Its a horse thing!
Like others, enjoyed the post and the detail. Nice to know we all go thru it.
I'm in the middle of a kitchen redo. Today we jerked around all day today trying to keep busy because everything was in a flux. Customer left at 10 to see designer at Lopew's, and got back at 4:30 with install details on everything. Job is in basement of a 200 year old house - Don't cover that fieldstone - and really custom, but I'm not a GC here, doing T&M.
It is really interesting to compare the numbers and the work. I don't know what I'll be facing come Monday; customer looking to change the entire layout of the room, moving refrigerator, peninsula and cabinets all at least 10-12'. He asked me to help change layout at 6 PM, I said I didn't have the equipment to take it all apart. See ya Monday.
Every job is a lesson.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
"I also do work for Multiply chemically sensitive people-- bubble people,, which doesn't really pay well,, keeps you up all night sorting threw details and researching,, and when you make a mistake,, someones kidneys go into failure because you grabbed in a rush the tremco 830 caulking instead of the tremflex 834."
doesn't pay well?
that should pay well and then some!
more work plus more potential liability?
I'd take a standard bid and times it by 4.
or account for each and every minute of research and keep that additional responsibility / liability in mind when I add things up.
but sounds like you'll make the jump from T and M to big just fine.
it's all in the details.
I don't even go that deep into the details ... I figure what I can knock out in a day and go from there. Helps that I grew up remodeling ... I can usually know and see the unknows and unforeseen conditions.
but I still never leave out that clause.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I was thinking the same thing. It's a niche market and there aren't that many that know enough about it to drive the price down. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
One of my customers is a very successful plumbing company. This guy has the 'look' of a big national franchise - yet is just him, and the company he built. He owns a lot of heavy equipment, makes no effort to be 'cheap,' and is certainly no stranger to quoting jobs.
Yet, sometimes, even he gets bit.
His position is that you can't get too focused on each and every job's financials. You need to take a longer view, look at each quarter.
That's another reason to never try to base your business on price alone. You need some depth in your pockets, to absorb these rude jobsite surprises.
you can't get too focused on each and every job's financials. You need to take a longer view, look at each quarter.
Good point, and well taken. You win some, you lose some. Overall, how are you doing, that's the question!
That's another reason to never try to base your business on price alone. You need some depth in your pockets, to absorb these rude jobsite surprises.
Amen to that!View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Time to move your trailer.
Joe H
four mistake I see,1) you too nice
2) company always have to make money
3) never break it down
4) you too niceit not that you bid too low it that other bid too cheap
brownbagg,
My take is differant.. First he's working and making a profit.. Many here are working and just using the cash flow to forestall the crisis.. so naturally my perspective would be differant..
Second on every job there is going to be wins and losses.. What wasn't covered is jobs that went smoother and faster than predicted.. Where foresight and knowledge saved him money or made extra profit..
What remains unknown is will his accomidation and appeasement efforts yield him and tangable results..
Thanks for your comments - I have learned a lot from your posts on selling.View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
four mistake I see,
1) you too nice
I've been told that.
2) company always have to make money
No disagreement there!
3) never break it down
Agree there also!
4) you too nice
Hmm, I've heard that before somewhere...
it not that you bid too low it that other bid too cheap
Oh, man, in this area there are fools who GIVE it away! Makes it tough on the rest of us, sometimes!View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Friend and I were in the home improvement business for 5 yrsHad to bid against low ballers who most likely had no insurance coverage, etc.About the time we were deciding to give it up, one of our main suppliers told us we were the only ones who paid our bills on time. Of course we weren't given better prices.Side note...recently went in to sign up for the Medicare thing.
Lady pulled up income history and had to tell me I didn't make much money for a couple years....HA.You that are successful, and many are, my hats off to you.
We worked our butts off.Pete
Time to move your trailer.
I can't disagree. I still love my granite guy - he's been a friend for years, and a perfectionist as a craftsman (his original business is glass - he's an absolute artist with glass, and granite is kind of new to him). We all fall down sometimes. That said, he's going through some personal and business problems, and if he doesn't get it together soon, I'll be doing just that (moving my trailer).View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Thanks for the post! I learned a great deal from you telling us about what didn't go well. Overall the job made a satisfactory profit. So, what can be learned from what was handled well to make the whole job profitable?
what can be learned from what was handled well to make the whole job profitable?
Yes, that was the point of my "lesson learned" comments. The more I learn, the more I earn!View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Not only to Huck, but thanks to all for your valuable input. This thread is one to high light to refer back to. View Image View Image
It sounds like you are on the right track by analyzing your money spent after the fact.
Two things that I do that may help..
Sometimes when I am on site to bid a job I will, with the client's permission, drill a hole in the wall in a hidden location so I can determine the makeup of the wall. I use a 1/2" hole saw and so I can even see the insulation and whatever else is back there and also look at the saw 'plug' to see drywall or plaster and the thickness. It is rare for a customer to turn me down if they are at all serious about going through with the job.
"No I don't want a hole in the wall that will get torn down if I remodel the kitchen" really means "I am just wondering how much a new kitchen will cost and will be shocked by the price and not ever do anything"
This little trick has saved me thousands of dollars and many headaches.
The second one is I require clients to have the appliances purchased before I start the job on a kitchen remodel. There are so many variables on size, type and cutouts that cannot be changed vs. cabinets, utilities, framing and counters that can be changed or ordered differently if given enough notice. I had a client on my first kitchen remodel switch from a electric cooktop to a gas cooktop after I had the walls closed up and the cabinets set. That delayed the job a week and cost them $4,000 and left a sour taste about the job. On stuff like hoods, wall ovens, microhoods, and cooktops I always try to look at the directions before I get going.
Edited 3/30/2008 12:21 pm ET by restorationday
Two things that I do that may help..
Sometimes when I am on site to bid a job I will, with the client's permission, drill a hole in the wall in a hidden location so I can determine the makeup of the wall... "No I don't want a hole in the wall that will get torn down if I remodel the kitchen" really means "I am just wondering how much a new kitchen will cost and will be shocked by the price and not ever do anything" This little trick has saved me thousands of dollars and many headaches.
The second one is I require clients to have the appliances purchased before I start the job on a kitchen remodel.
Excellent points, both would have been good to implement on this job!View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
I enjoy your description and it's like talking about a job over coffee or lunch. Much to be learned from such things.
One guy I worked with bids most remodels but is very specific about the expected conditions burried in the walls and has a rate for extra work that covers him. I like that a lot.
As for feeling bad about the replacement door, they seem to be getting a deal, but I know what you mean about it leaving a sour taste in their mouth. That has happened to me and that door at the end of the job still bothers me because the guy stiffed me a hundred bucks because he had a gut feeling it shouldn't cost that much.
Now that everything has been T&M last minute items just blend in with the rest of it and it hasn't been a problem.
Good building
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
i notice ALL my problems come from trusting and depending on other people, I commend you for jumping in and getting it done but it sounds like they did not do that for you or attempt to, I know a couple guys here do well but there real jerks to there subs, Im a nice guy and have a sign on my back that says kick me, ticks me off that i always went the extra mile.A few jobs i did i stood back and counted up all the extras i did and was surprized how much it cost me, But on a kitchen or bath remodel theres just going to be stuff you cant foresee, hopefully this job and your attention to detail will pay off in future referrals
I have just found that I sleep better at night if I don't try to get every sub to meet my high standards every time. Meaning I just have to factor into my bids some money for going back and correcting some stuff. I just expect it. But at the same time, I try to learn from these issues, and use them to teach my sub's what my expectations are. Some will adapt, some will have to be replaced with other sub's. My stable of sub's is constantly evolving.View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Thanks to all for your feedback on my post. I'm going to try to address each comment individually, but wanted to say Thanks to all first. This place wouldn't be worth posting if it weren't for the feedback from others who care enough to share their views!
CaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Huck,
Just a couple of words.
On the change orders. Write them up and demand payment in full and immediately. Only way to do it or you will find yourself behind the 8 ball. I would try to stay away from t&m on co's.
Stae such in your contract if it's not in there already.
[email protected]
Huck, I'm in agreement with almost everyone here. First, congrats on a successful outcome. That in itself is worth a lot. Someone mentioned 30 35% more for the diamond hardwood layout. I'd figure a minimum upcharge of 50% more. My goal would be to lay the straight floor or make money on the "artistic" version. I also agree that working that extra door at T & M was a bad decision unless you ballparked the final price in the range that it's actually going to be. If they are thinking $400 and you tell them $800 even though you really need $1200, you still lose. You lose TWICE! You lose their goodwill and you lose $400! I also agree with you about wanting to cut the invoice to protect the goodwill. Consider it a form of advertising expense. I agree with others that you should invoice all extras on the spot and I agree that a check should be made out for the extra when it's signed. It's a small bill there and they don't mind paying because they are caught up in the exhuberance of the purchase. They've obviously considered everything and emotionally have decided that they want it. Mentally, they justify the purchase. When they write the check they feel good and smart about it. If you let all the extras run up into a big bill, they will suffer buyer's remorse and take it out on you, blaming you for not explaining how all those little things add up to a big bill that they can't afford! And...don't be afraid to explain the need to pay the extras just like I've explained. By the time you've started this project you should have a great rapport and there is nothing wrong with informing them exactly of what will happen if they wait to add up all the extras. They'll get a chuckle out of the conversation but more importantly, you'll get paid for every extra before you write them. It probably would be a good thing to create a standard change order form and provide them with several blank copies with the filled in job information. That will tell them upfront that you are serious about getting them signed and paid for before you'll agree to them. Right there on the change order form will be the signature line and check # line....without something on both of them....no change order is valid! Also, I think you are going overboard with being a nice guy. I'm a nice guy and am willing to pitch in and help the guys too but I also like to stick to a budget. On this last granite install we did, we had a very aggressive budget. Since we didn't have a granite installer in our fold, I decided that I'd post the job with the budget. I had guys emailing me telling me that I would never get what I wanted. Frank had to deal with 20 guys coming out, knowing the budget and returning with proposals that blew the budget by 20 to 25%...which was a waste of time for them because we told them that we weren't paying over the budget...we'd downgrade from granite rather than going over budget. Eventually, we got down and dirty and found the guy that would meet our budget. Of course we were concerned about quality so we explicitly warned him that if we weren't 100% satisfied on the quality and install, he'd have to rip it all out and take it with him and get paid NOTHING. He did a great job and we found a granite guy now. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Thanks for a very useful post. We all should be sharing more of this kind of info with each other.
This is why I love Breaktime, threads like this. I'm very green to the whole business end of contracting. I'm in the midst of biding my first kitchen job and the insight you and other have given will help out a lot. Thanks.
Huck, thanks for your post! It's helpful to see some of the pitfalls that others face with bidding and the aftermath of job complete.
What is your take on "cost plus" or "time and materials" on the whole job where one deals with budget amounts instead of hard numbers?
What is your take on "cost plus" or "time and materials" on the whole job where one deals with budget amounts instead of hard numbers?
I worked for a guy years ago who did very well with that system - but it has never worked for me. A hard bid seems to be the only way I can make money. Because how do I factor time for stuff like writing ads for the yellow pages, attending workers comp insurance seminars, filing receipts, and etc. etc. into a T&M job? It could be done, but the hourly rate would scare people away, especially in this valley. I'm in California, but this Central Valley has a whole 'nuther economy, not like the coastal or metropolitan areas.
Plus, budget amounts usually means breaking everything down, which has never worked out for me. Because then they always want to save a few bucks on this or that, once they see the breakdown. Like the thread on customer involvement giving the contractor gray hairs. View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Hey, that's a great post and breakdown - I need to do do a post-mortem like that on all my jobs.
Forrest - need to be more of a businessman - just have no intrinsic interest in that . . .
My first impression is that you need some kind of business manager, if that is the right term. You obviously have the best of intentions, but too much is getting away from you. You need to be the boss and hire someone who can work these issues and keep you updated.
You are overloaded.
very good post.
Thanks.
coupla things jump out to me.
one ... my granite buddy would have got himself or another guy to come and fix with the first guy he sent out screwed up.
'cause we're buds ... and more so 'cause I'm paying for a good job.
and ... the tile guy. No way I would have tipped on a job I helped on that I wasn't expecting to help on. And ... what's with the "diamond" problems?
laying on the diagonal takes no more time.
little bit more materials ... but no more time.
I once had a customer tell me the last tile guy she talked to said he couldn't do diagonal floor tile?
I said ... OK ... stand and look at the straight tile ... now ... turn 45deg.
see ... now it's diagonal!
diagonal backsplashes are a different matter. Almost always more cuts..
with the tile guy I would have let him off the hook and done the thresholds myself, and also happily cut those tile ... but I wouldn't have tipped.
and yer right ... wall mount hoods are a different animal. And if by some miracle there isn't framing in the way of the new duct work ... don't worry .... it won't line up easily anyways!
can't help with the painting ... I have a great painter that I recommend 10 out of 1- times ... I've found out thru the years that painting ain't for me ... even though I do a nice job ... but like everything else ... there is a science behind it.
So I call Dave and he bids and I get to collect that last check worry free.
can't comment too much else on the subs "upcharging" ... my guys mosly don't do that ... but when they do ... like you ... I shut up and pay.
not because I'm a push over ... but because I know if any of them come back and ask for $400 extra ... it's because they really missed something and it's costing them $800!
in the end ... sounds like you did a good job.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa