I’m here at FineHomebuilding.com, wishing I could build some fine homes. But not many homes are being built at all, here where I live, and a lot of other places. So the industry stagnates with the horrible economy. Young people don’t consider fine homebuilding as a career option, schools don’t train for it, craftsmanship is little understood or appreciated by the population at large anyway, so there isn’t a great demand for it.
Where are we headed?
View Image“…everyone needs to sit on a rock, listen to the surf, and feel the ocean breeze in their face once in awhile.”
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i am in agreement as to the lack of appreciation and coming from the food service industry many years ago it was a similar situation there nobody seems to hesitate to pay mechanics fees but feel free to haggle or low ball my prices
noah
nobody seems to hesitate to pay mechanics fees but feel free to haggle or low ball my prices
Ya know, I have often thought about that.
My FIL just had a ball joint go bad on his truck-04 Silvarado- and the dealership wanted 600 bucks for R & R. He paid it without a word of complaint. Now, all told, the truck was probably on the lift for 90 minutes, the parts probably cost the dealership another 150 bucks or so. ( I am not at all saying the charge wasn't justified, only pointing out the similarities between their job and ours)
But the truck was at the dealership all day and my FIL was never in the shop watching the wrench work. He doesn't have any frame of reference except those facts.
In our line of work, our customers watch us all day, using tools that for the most part are very familiar to them. Heck, all I used yesterday was a hammer, knife, snips,tape, and a circ saw. Our profession has the appearance of simplicity to most H.O.'s. " See the wall, side the wall". But nobody can see the experience and forethought that will go into the flashing details so that the wall doesn't rot. Nobody sees the thousands of repetitions that are compressed into competent efficiency and wise problem solving.....it's our job to help them see that.
Explain the details. Give value to the skills you have aquired over your career. Ignorance, most of the time, is not the H.O.'s fault; it's the experts responsibility to educate.
Naive but refreshing !
i often marvel at the idea that i start a job usually do all the worst /hardest parts of the job but the electrician and plumbers come in and the home owner just says ok that what you charge here it is and the make way more hourly than i can charge in my market for my labor thats why i am trying to get in the electricians union at 38 yrs old
Noah
its all about money, not quality money, the green movement, money, global warming , money. One I would like to see, hurricane proof housing, but there would be no money in it because they would never need repairing. Life is about money.
One of the things that hits me is how few people bother to educate their customers about quaility.. It would be so easy to make tornado proof and hurricane proof roofs and cost so very little..
For example if you can talk them into approving the use of Simpson H7 brackets or even easier 3/8ths inch lag bolts the roof would likely stay on in the highest winds.
we're not talking about a massive amount of money either.. I mean, sure it will take alittle bit longer to drive in a 3/8ths inch lag bolt with an impact wrench than it will take to toe nail a rafter on but we're talking a minute more per rafter or so.. So if you have 60 rafter tails to put on then charge an extra hour for the additional labor.. heck charge two hours make a profit for selling something!
The standard rafter tail will come off with 208 pounds of pressure however a simpson H7 brings that up to 2726 pounds and a 3/8ths inch lag bolt fails at 2783 pounds. That's a total force of 12, 480 ft.#s to remove a roof that's toenailed versis 166,980 ft.#s to remove that same roof that's lag bolted together..
So if your labor rate is $50.00 an hour for $100 you can greatly increase his roof security.
That's like selling $100 bills for a nickle!
"a simpson H7 brings that up to 2726"
I think your number is a bit optimistic:
View Image
Simpson Seismic and Hurricane Ties
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
As tested by Stanley H Niu department of civil engineering. see forest products journal july/ august 1991, 2801 Marshall Ct. Madison wisc. 53705
Information printed in Tauton presses book on Framing Roofs
"As tested by Stanley H Niu department of civil engineering. see forest products journal july/ august 1991, 2801 Marshall Ct. Madison wisc. 53705
Information printed in Tauton presses book on Framing Roofs"
My information is as tested by Simpson's engineers and is acceptable to any code official I know.
I can print a list or ESR's that will be what an inspector will want to see (unless you can show prove your work with the NDS) so I would be inclined to believe the manufacturer, not a book printed in 1991.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon we're talking two differant things here..
You're talking about a large company carefull to understate the capabilities of their product for fear of lawsuits..
I am talking about a tested to destruction methods as supervised by the Forest Products Labratory..
The date is meaningless. (other than as a way to verify the information)
A few months ago, while I was doing a major remodel in a townhouse, I stopped at a convenience store after work one afternoon to get a cold drink.Sitting on the curb were two guys, looking a bit worn out. They saw the sign on my truck and asked if I had any work for them.And when they asked, it sounded like something from a "Dumb and Dumber" sketch -- these guys couldn't put two words together to save their souls.So I asked them what they had been doing that day. Working for a temp service, doing general-labor at a construction site -- and they complained about the wage, the boss, the heat, the location, the fact that the boss did not provide transportation..........When they asked what I had been doing, I told them I was making money. Which was true.Sometimes its the skill, sometimes its the attitude. Most times it takes both. But there's money to be made.
Politics is the antithesis of problem solving.
"Sometimes its the skill, sometimes its the attitude. Most times it takes both. But there's money to be made."There yah go!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Once I got snubbed by a HO who was showing me a laundry list of punch outs from previous contractors who didn't finish various jobs. The painter walked in behind his huge beergut, and I was suddenly something stuck to the bottom of a shoe. "You'll have to go now, my painter is here to discuss colors..." I highballed the price and fortunately didn't get job. It's all about what has the most flash and visual impact.
"Our profession has the appearance of simplicity to most H.O.'s."
Well said Woody.
You guys that are all down on the carpentry trade and the respect it garners need to just find something else to do so the rest of us can keep building a positive image rather than the negative one you are providing.If you want folks to treat you positively and with respect, earn it and act like it instead of crying like babies. step back and look at what kind of image you are projecting for this craft to the public with this thread.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You're about thirty years too late with that sentiment. It's touching, but out of touch.
A little harsh Piffen----but maybe accurate none the lessstephen
Maybe.but I openned up the thread expecting a rather positive direction and some hionts on controling feedback and almost all I saw was a bunch of whimpering.I've always bneen one who believes in building your own way, business, reputation, etc.And along the way ( nearly forty years of it for me, I reckon, not thirty like somebody imagined) I have heard enough feedback to know I have the respect of professionals and tradesmen alike. I have shoveled muck in a six foot wet clay ditch with laborers and have sat on boards with investors, lawyers, and engineers, and have had intense discussions with architects, owners and billionaires and I can look any one of them in the eye and know they appreciate me and my talents and my profession.I've also seen laborers and investors and architects and engineers either whimper and cry, or stand up on their own hind legs and demand respect. Doesn't matter what ones calling in life is, a vocation I think we called it when I grew up, there are winners and losers in every walk.And no body else in the whole damn world determines which of those titles you wear other than the guy inside your own skin.
I know you understand this Haz, but your reply was a good jumping off place.{Sheet, I feel like I was just channeling Dieselpig....}
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I have no idea how most of the people who post here actually get out of bed in the morning. Too much doom and gloom for me. Vic
No time to elaborate today Piffen--- but your post reminds me of one I have been thinking on starting for about a month now---with regaurds to work ethic,attitude and what one expects of themself and othersgotta run----but if it rains tommorrow maybe we can talk about it.stephen
This has turned into a decent thread after all.
i'll look for you. I'll probably be working all weekend to get a staircase trimed in, but be in and out at lunch and AM
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
View ImageView Image"...everyone needs to sit on a rock, listen to the surf, and feel the ocean breeze in their face once in awhile."
cambriadays.com
i am not negative about carpentry i grew up in a family of crafts people and have been surrounded by some of the most awesome craftsmen and women producing beautiful work since i was born my point is only that Americans in general tend not to appreciate any trades at all and when you watch theses tv shows about dyi you can see it only is going to continue
Noah
i am not negative about carpentry i grew up in a family of crafts people and have been surrounded by some of the most awesome craftsmen and women producing beautiful work since i was born my point is only that Americans in general tend not to appreciate any trades at all
I understood you fine - Methinks Paul operates in a slightly different environment from most of us.View Image"...everyone needs to sit on a rock, listen to the surf, and feel the ocean breeze in their face once in awhile."
cambriadays.com
Americans in general tend not to appreciate any trades at allwe was talking about this at work today, its all about the money, not the job
Americans in general tend not to appreciate any trades at all
You kinda have to wonder - why is that?
An essay on the Internet Craftsmanship Museum said this: "I honestly believe that our attitude about craftsmanship is a bellwether of our society.
"My work, especially with museums, has often required me to study the techniques and application of early technology to our industrial and scientific past. One thing became quite clear; in the past exceptional craftsmanship was the norm, and this expectation largely reflected the society of its time. Mastery of your trade or craft through apprenticeship, discipline, perseverance and respect for your elders were expected of all, and most importantly, this ethic translated directly into the crafting and production of goods. ‘Journeyman’ meant you had worked hard and paid your dues, “made the journey”, so to speak. Yet the goal for some was the title of Master.
"Today, these values are the exception.
"We in Western society have largely become “observers” rather than “doers”. ... I believe that the decline in appreciation of Craftsmanship is at the root of this trend, and that this trend must be reversed for us to survive. I also believe that we all innately share a love and appreciation of fine craftsmanship, but most do not have a reference point or access to examples of it. The Internet...has drawn so many away from “making things’ to vicariously experiencing what others have chosen for us in lieu of us identifying and pursuing a unique personal journey."View Image"...everyone needs to sit on a rock, listen to the surf, and feel the ocean breeze in their face once in awhile."
cambriadays.com
Yah know, B is unique in his comments here, but he probably hit on a serious part of the problem. for me, it is not about the money, but for so much of America, that is the focus. They look for a JOB paying the most rather than for a Career that will bring them satisfaction because it has a purpose and suits their individual skills. Then they end up unhappy, frustrated, and needing to take it out on somebody else. Who wants to work for that sort of individual?And on the other end of that, they shop for a house based on the bottom line, rather than looking for quality craftsmanship.
Some of them can be educated that some things could last twice as long when they spend another 10-20% in the beginning.
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No - I have operated in many different environments around the country and always refused working for those who can't appreciate good work.most are in the middle where they can be educated to appreciate I entered the thread understanding the sort of conversation you wanted to initiate, but was appalled at all the negative attitudes already expressed.Step back and take another look at what all was written with an objective eye and you will understand the attitude I was railing against.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I entered the thread understanding the sort of conversation you wanted to initiate, but was appalled at all the negative attitudes already expressed.
Well, I didn't take it that way (the attitudes expressed), I just saw some expressing frustration, albeit probably less eloquently than you might. Anyway, I thought your reaction was a bit harsh, and tended to stifle dialogue, rather than encourage it.
I figured you could take a little good natured ribbing, since you already know I have nothing but respect for you and the knowledge you have amassed.
We gotta cut these youngsters some slack!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1_NhnXMCKw&feature=relatedView Image"...everyone needs to sit on a rock, listen to the surf, and feel the ocean breeze in their face once in awhile."
cambriadays.com
"I thought your reaction was a bit harsh, and tended to stifle dialogue, rather than encourage it"Probably so. When I typed that first response, as I proofread it for spelling, I was shocked at how bunt it sounded, so I went back thru the thread to review it again before posting, and I came away feeling even more *appalled* shall we say, with the negative attitudes presented, and thought, "hey, these guys don't want any help to make it better, they just wanna blather on..."I've known to many guys like that and it is always somebody else's fault, so I have developed no patience for that kind of talk.So should I sit ion t he corner now and let them dialouge?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
OK, so don't bother dealing with Americans in general.
do business with those who appreciate craftsmanship, and work to educate the others in the middle ground.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
The DYI shows are about money and selling tools.To hear the talk among some tradespeople after a Norm show is astounding. They talk like they need another tool as though the answer lies in the tool and not the skill needed. When I was a youngster hand tools were used with the young students and the older students got to use power tools.
i like the diy show where they redo a seven foot bathroom and spend 50k on supplies only no labor. one dude put a $4000 tv in the mirror, why. and then a $4000 vanity that was 2 ft by 2ft. $2500 on galss tile just for the shower, a $3000 shower doorwhy,why, why now that without any labor.That vanity and Tv I could of got a pretty good pickup
That vanity and Tv I could of got a pretty good pickup
Lots of us here could build a decent small house for that too!
Wasn't it those who bought tools and product who provided the money for the advertising?
If there happens to perhaps be a solution of any sorts to this current dilemma, then surely here at Breaktime, we with all the amassed staggeringly brilliant mental acumen here should be quite capable of devising some form of solution. Piffin, with his 75 years of building experience has a salient point in that care must be taken to not foster a further deterioration in the feelings associated with an ailing industry. WE have chosen this profession, one person commented about trying to join the Electrical fellas at this stage. Well in truth this is not a field that requires a great deal of "certification' as it were. We all know that , and perhaps that may indeed be one of the reasons that some of us made this specific choice in the first place. Collectively we here have a form that may allow us to further the trade in a number of ways. Together other are many ideas that might come to fruition if the will is there. Education - of both the young individuals that are entering the field and of the end use consumer CAN be met with more success. We have a great current opportunity to demonstrate this during the economic downturn, as was pointed out by another voice and I shall paraphrase " You can not outsource a chimney" Many are begriming to see the value in just that wisdom.
Just who is beginning to realize that the trades cannot be outsourced? Who is beating the drum, pointing the new generation toward a "career" in the trades?Certainly not wall street. I looked at a couple of best jobs predictions and they do NOT mention what many of us now do for a living. Not a contractor, builder, remodeler, plumber or electrician in the bunch.Here's a sample - google up some more to see what the all knowing Karnacs are saying.http://www.usnews.com/articles/business/best-careers/2008/12/11/the-30-best-careers-for-2009.htmlAlso of note, schools have for years been closing down their wood and metal shops, selling off equipment at pennies on the dollar or just scrapping. Music and art are also on the chopping block and to save even more money teacher contracts are not being renewed for what used to be staple courses.Schools are changing hours of operation and dropping at least one class period per day, all to save the almighty dollar. The new generation will have no exposure to the trades in the schools, no hands on at all up through graduation unless the parent owns a hammer.The new generation will not have the stamina necessary to even begin a career in the trades what with a computer on every desk, the boob tube as a substitute for family time, and an ipod, blackberry or cell phone grafted to every ear.
Also of note, schools have for years been closing down their wood and metal shops, selling off equipment at pennies on the dollar or just scrapping. Music and art are also on the chopping block and to save even more money teacher contracts are not being renewed for what used to be staple courses.
Schools are changing hours of operation and dropping at least one class period per day, all to save the almighty dollar. The new generation will have no exposure to the trades in the schools, no hands on at all up through graduation unless the parent owns a hammer.
The new generation will not have the stamina necessary to even begin a career in the trades what with a computer on every desk, the boob tube as a substitute for family time, and an ipod, blackberry or cell phone grafted to every ear.
Now you're hitting on what's been eating at me. We are not building tradesmen and craftsmen to handle the next generation of demand, whatever exact form that demand takes. We know that. But at some point, society in general will become aware of it. Wonder what happens then?View Image"...everyone needs to sit on a rock, listen to the surf, and feel the ocean breeze in their face once in awhile."
cambriadays.com
no body mention licensing here either, in this part of the wood, if you have a pickup truck you are now a framing contractor, doesnt matter if you know what you doing. there ought to make them like a real company, insurance training, but then would raise the price and we dont want that
All licensing did in FL for roofers was jack the price up, let the contractor make more money and the same guys still did the same work, many times for less money.
Saw that list also: Couple of common threads - license, regulation, education, low pay relative to education investment! " (parenthesis) "indicates relative in the profession and first hand knowledge, ? means no idea why that job made list
Audiologist - government regulated license, artificial pricing (nephew)
Biomedical equipment technician - education
Clergy - Masters degree, low pay
Curriculum/training specialist masters degree, low pay in places (DW)
Engineer education, pay comensurate with skill (self)
Firefighter physical and mental attributes needed (nephew)
Fundraiser ? probably low pay?
Genetic counselor ?
Ghostwriter ?
Government manager ?
Hairstylist/Cosmetologist low pay (aunt)
Health policy specialist ?
Higher education administrator many are governemnt jobs
Landscape architect ?
Librarian education and low pay (DW)
Locksmith/Security system technician high turnover?
Management consultant ?
Mediator ?
Occupational therapist physical therapist
Optometrist see audiologist
Pharmacist masters degree, boring work unless in research (niece)
Physical therapist many state laws mandate school system coverage (DIL)
Physician assistant see vet
Politician/Elected official God help us all!
Registered nurse same as therapist
School psychologist same as therapist
Systems analyst see engineer
Urban planner ?? they plan???
Usability/User experience specialist see engineer
Veterinarian low starting pay for doctorate degree (neice)
In 2004 I semi retired after being in the trade for over 30 years and now I am teaching in a construction management program. The students in that program are making about $55,000 per year to start right out of college. After ten years in construction management and ten years in the trade there is an even wider gap in pay.
"Our profession has the appearance of simplicity to most H.O.'s."
EVERY profession is simple once one takes the time to study it.
Politics is excluded from 'profession' as you must be willing to be an %$#^& or crook in most cases. This leads to many cases where the politicians institute 'hurdles' to raise the 'study' time that involve just rules and regulations and payments or 'fees' that are simply backdoor taxes - HVAC pricing and freon are an example.
The thread was started to get some ideas on how the fine homebuilding industry will be affected once we come out of this economic downturn. It will be different, no doubt. But in what ways?
I for one would like to see more of an emphasis on education in the remodeling/construction industry, both regarding trainees within the industry, and educating the public on the real costs and value of craftsmanship.View Image"...everyone needs to sit on a rock, listen to the surf, and feel the ocean breeze in their face once in awhile."
cambriadays.com
"The thread was started to get some ideas on how the fine homebuilding industry will be affected once we come out of this economic downturn. It will be different, no doubt. But in what ways? "good - a new start. Great question in the way it is posed.One thing is that a lot of the chaff may have been weeded out. People who had no heart for the work and ran out of jobs may have moved on to other things, leaving the jobs to those who have a career in it.New people will come back in to the trades and will need mentoring by guys with skills and the right attitudes. I think many of those will be more willing to appreciate hard work. For a generation now, schools have shunned the trades and pushed kids into computer work that has now been off-shored. This was subject of a local radio talk show here recently. One called pointed out that when you need a chimney or fireplace built, the work cannot be off-shored. A few youngsters are starting to recognize that fact.Times of change are times of opportunities.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
New people will come back in to the trades and will need mentoring by guys with skills and the right attitudes. I think many of those will be more willing to appreciate hard work. For a generation now, schools have shunned the trades and pushed kids into computer work that has now been off-shored. This was subject of a local radio talk show here recently. One called pointed out that when you need a chimney or fireplace built, the work cannot be off-shored. A few youngsters are starting to recognize that fact.
Times of change are times of opportunities
Now that there is saying a mouthful. Kinda what I'm thinking - at some point, the trend has to reverse itself. The gulf between tradesman, or talented craftsman, and the average American weaned on wii and x-box, is getting wider. I'm thinking that there will be some great educational opportunities for those still around when the demand outpaces the supply.
And true craftsmanship will no doubt come at a premium.
Of course, it hasn't happened here yet, but I think its smart to look at where things are heading. Always easier to look around at the present, or look back to the past, than to look to the uncertain future!View Image"...everyone needs to sit on a rock, listen to the surf, and feel the ocean breeze in their face once in awhile."
cambriadays.com
In some ways, this( we skilled tradesmen) has become a commodity. The John Q Public consumer is shopping for the cheapest install and that is what he gets. He has turned it into a commodity market in many ways.So compare it to the history of the way commodities markets work.Price is high for steel and copper, so a lot of profit can be made in mining it to bring to market. new mines are developed and equipt and refineries put into production, along with the rail lines and ships to carry it to the factories that will use it.After a while, with everyone getting into the act, some price cutting starts and eventually every one is cutting each other's prices, until market price drops below cost of production and some mines and producers shut down. Along the way,no new exploration has been done because there was no profit seen going forward.Then comes the time in the cycle where the producing mines start drying up, while at the same time the low price has increased demand for the commodity. but because no neew mines were developed for years, the cycle has to start again, with scarcity of product causing an increase in price.in commodities like these, the cycle runs about 30-40 years.
You can see it in the oil/gas price from 1972 until this past year.so where are we as a commodity of skilled workers. i'd say that cheap work and a surplus of workers ( along with tooling that increased production) kept driving costs down. So Kids looked at other careers. Immigrants came in to take the place of that generation in part. Now many are leaving the trades because of the economy and downturn Compare that to the mines closing down and existing mines playing out) then, when demand comes back, there will be a shortage. Those who know what to do to accomplish the work will be the teachers and managers and contractor/owners of a whole new generation on the way up in a new cycle.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"Those who know what to do to accomplish the work will be the teachers and managers and contractor/owners of a whole new generation on the way up in a new cycle."
Agreed. They will be the "builders".
From my point of view, I'm betting that the hispanics will be the wealth builders of the future. They'll be hiring other hispanics to do the subcontracting work.
"From my point of view, I'm betting that the hispanics will be the wealth builders of the future. They'll be hiring other hispanics to do the subcontracting work."I believe you are right. I know a man and his wife who came from Mexico not speaking English. He waited tables and she took care of kids. In about four years they saved their money and bought a home that was $200,000 and in the next six years they bought another home for about $400,000. They own both homes. One if for a day care and the other they live in. In 2002 he started working as a carpenter and going to school part time,. At that time he never made more than $15/hour. While he was making it others were complaining about how they could not do very well. He learned to speak English and started going to a junior college. So it can be done with some sacrifice.
my boss is a son of illegal mexicos. he was born here but ended up going to college and he a PE engineer.
This story is a prime example of what I say all the time.
Many around me complain that the hispanic immigrants will be a drain on our country or that they are taking jobs from Americans I always remind them that is what was said about the Irish when they came or the Italians or the Polish. (99% of the time the one saying it is a son or grandson of a immigrant himself)
But what I see is honest hard working people that just want to better their situation. They deserve our respect not for any reason except that they earn it every day with the work they do. The opportunity is there for all. If you were born and educated here in the US and you loose your job to someone who came here with nothing can hardly speak English and faces discrimination for it every day maybe you should look at what he is doing to make his life better and do the same because you had all the advantages if you did not make the most of them it is not the fault of anyone else. We all face hard times and they are not always our own fault. But it is how you face them that is the measure of a man no matter what your race. So right now the building industry is facing some hard times and the competition for jobs is tight so it is true there are many good men willing to work who are not but this too will pass but lets not make the same mistakes during the next boom we made during the last one. The building industry has been and more then likely always will be a boom then bust industry that is why as builders we must make hay while the sun shines and put away savings for when it does not.
My opinion is that Fine Home building with be all the better after this down turn.
Why? Because during housing booms many bad under experienced and under skilled and unscrupulous so called contractors spring up. They get plenty of new work due to the fact that the good contractors are all booked up. But they get no repeat work and no good referrals.When you get a down turn in the market everyone suffers yes but the first to be weeded out are the worst some good contractors do fail also during slow times if they were under capitalized or simply not the best businessmen we all know the best carpenters are not always the best businessmen.
Businesses do fail for many reasons other then just the quality of their work. But the guys with a good a track record of always providing quality work, provide accurate detailed estimates and can close a job on schedule and within budget with little or no call backs always seem to find a way to make it through slow times. As they say the cream always rises to the top. And during tight times only those at the top survive. So yes I know it seems difficult now but hang in there. Also if you are one of the better finically established companies you can take advantage of this down turn.
The pawn shops are full of practically brand new tools at low prices the used car lots are full of work trucks and vans although with a few dents are all tricked out ready for work. And the one thing you can't say now is that there is a lack of skilled labor out there. So take advantage of that team up with others to take on projects that you normally would not do during a housing boom.I know it is hard I myself started my business as a finish carpentry subcontractor for new home builders I was booked out 3 years during the boom now I have expanded to a General Home improvement contractor and I am using my connections with other tradesmen that are equally skilled to team together to take on additions and other jobs. We keep each other busy. Sure there is much less work out there now but there is work and there are still people willing to pay for a reputable contractor. So I can understand why you might be feel down about the state of the building trades right now but this too shall pass. And the industry as a whole will emerge even stronger because of this.Hopefully we can also learn from the mistakes made in the industry over the past 10 years we can start to build more energy efficient homes think more about sustainability vs just making a quick buck. Work with homeowners of all income levels to provide them with quality housing that they need and want at a reasonable profit
Build less huge luxury spec homes that rely on dubious financing packages to sell.
Lets not forget as builders we bare some of the blame for the housing boom and the subsequent downturn. Many of us never really wanted to know just how that new homeowner was affording that new luxury home we just built we just wanted it sold so we could build the next one. And some larger developers are even more the then just some of the blame they knew out right that the financing packages they were offering were dubious at best.So where do I think our industry is heading well that depends, we can face this downturn with a positive attitude learn from our mistakes and move forward to a better and stronger industry or we can allow it to continue in the this boom then bust fashion it is up to us.
My opinion is that Fine Home building with be all the better after this down turn.Why? Because during housing booms many bad under experienced and under skilled and unscrupulous so called contractors spring up...When you get a down turn in the market everyone suffers yes but the first to be weeded out are the worst
the guys with a good a track record of always providing quality work, provide accurate detailed estimates and can close a job on schedule and within budget with little or no call backs always seem to find a way to make it through slow times.
this too shall pass. And the industry as a whole will emerge even stronger because of this.
Hopefully we can also learn from the mistakes made in the industry over the past 10 years we can start to build more energy efficient homes think more about sustainability vs just making a quick buck.
So where do I think our industry is heading well that depends, we can face this downturn with a positive attitude learn from our mistakes and move forward to a better and stronger industry or we can allow it to continue in the this boom then bust fashion it is up to us.
In my post to Jim Blodgett, I responded to a lot of these concepts. I too, think that in spite of the difficulties of the current situation, the opportunity is there for us as businesses, and the fine homebuilding industry at large, to emerge stronger, with a more solid foundation.
It seems that the emphasis will shift somewhat from construction being an "uneducated" field, to being more academic. Already the energy codes are requiring builders to become more educated on the current science.
View Image"...everyone needs to sit on a rock, listen to the surf, and feel the ocean breeze in their face once in awhile."
cambriadays.com
i think what may happen even more then now is temp workers .
The problem was probably of the industries own making.
I don't think commercial construction (which is largely unionized) suffers the same wage disparity as residential construction (which just about any hack can get into). I also think the those in trades that require certification also command higher wages.
It also doesn't help when every channel on television is pushing some stupid "do-it-yourself" series making the average homeowner thinking he can really do it himself.
I think a lot of the problem in the lowering of the pay scale has to do with the ability of any hack being able to get in for a short stint and lowballing work. As you mention the average joe knows when his car isn't running right but the average joe won't know his roof is repaired correctly until the next big downpour.
Huck; Not all locations are like that.. On my short dead end block there are three new multi million dollar homes built in the last year and four on Casco Point where I live.
These are anything but cookie cutter homes since they are all custom and have fine details beautifully done.
As portraint of things to come three houses were demolished to build new homes this spring here on Casco point. None of those homes were in poor shape or even neglected shape.. they were simply not up to the standards of the rest of the homes around.. (not large or elaborate enough)
It seems like the really wealthy are perfectly willing to take advantage of low prices.
However it is true that the industry is in shambles. I've been unemployed for 21 months so far and in spite of nearly 20 years in the housing industry of very successful performance I don't have a prayer of getting a job untill the economy overall recovers.
However in general building modest homes for those with a modest income will not yield very large rewards.. Physical labor has never been well rewarded.. IF you seek wealth there is much more in manipulation than in physical effort..
Bankers have always been better rewarded than carpenters. Successful merchants are capable of the same sort of earnings that a banker is capable of..
Lot fewer drug addicts, felons, drunks, and bi-polar crazies doing electricity too.
that because with electrity, god weeds out the stupid
You need a "Now that's funny right there" award!!!!!!
True.
GrandPa, is that you? Vic
GrandPa, is that you? Vic
huh? supposed to be funny? Are you a contractor, carpenter, or construction worker who cares about the future of our industry?
How do you think our industry will be impacted by the economic downturn? Do you think there is sufficient training available to those who want to pursue a career in fine homebuilding in the future? Do you think the industry could do a better job educating the public?
View Image"...everyone needs to sit on a rock, listen to the surf, and feel the ocean breeze in their face once in awhile."
cambriadays.com
Edited 6/17/2009 10:47 pm by Huck
"The shy is falling" has been yelled just about every other decade for the last two hundred years or so at least. How about that new assembly line, that's sure gonna change things. And them darn mechanical nail guns, why them's gonna put alot of good fella's out of work. And I hear tell sometime right after the '50's all houses are gonna be built in factories, what'll happen to all the framers. And those darn Mexicans, well they're just taking all the construction jobs. On no, there's a gas shortage and Jimmy Carter ain't doing a darn thing about it. What will we do?
I have news for you, life goes on. And there are alot of places outside of California that are doing just fine, thank you. I just read a story about cities that are booming. Maybe you should move to Texas, half the top ten were in Texas.
Me, I blame those darn kids and their darn rock and roll. Vic
I think you kinda missed the point, but that's OK. Thanks for your imput.View Image"...everyone needs to sit on a rock, listen to the surf, and feel the ocean breeze in their face once in awhile."
cambriadays.com
think you kinda missed the point
Which may have to do with the larger realm of perception, and design, and expectation.
See, I fear the problem is actually cheap apartments and bare dorm rooms. If you live in identical marizpan-painted boxes with sheetrock returns on the 1/8 strength-glazed R0 windows for long enough, you might find a McHouse almost pleasant.
And never know what glories are out there.
Why else but mass housing can explain why people will invest the years it takes to scrape up a down payment, and make a 30 year commitment to something they found printed on 8 1/2 x 11 newsprint?
And, "we" can be the enemy, too. Had a telling conversation with a finish carpenter who was triming out a window. he was complaining that people have no taste, that designers are all garbage, the whole list. Now, admittedly, as is, this was going to be a very plain window, pretty much 4" MDF jamb casing, 10" head casing, and a very plain sill and apron. Paintgrade all the way, and in a public room.
So I ask the fellow, do you know what the Design Committee, she ahs planeed for this window? 2/3 height pained plantation shutters, a sheer skrim, two sets of drapes and a full-length swag with pullbacks. And, that's why the design clown specified the 10" head casing? And had you noticed the detailing in the man-room with the fine wood work and all the shutters you had to measure for?
Sometimes we all have to know what the finished product is going to be. (Which has to be the reason nobody asks "why" for all the dumb slabs-on-grade in Austin.)Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
it seems craftsmanship is on the decline, expectations have been lowered, mass-production and dumbing-down seem to be industry goals ... but is a turnaround in sight? It seems there would be a grass-roots reaction to the poor quality stuff that's passed as"acceptable" for years.
Or is quality work only to be accessible to the super-wealthy? And why would they want it, when they can get bigger size instead of better quality? Sara Susanka argues for the opposite - is anyone listening? Why does she feel compelled to have to make the argument, anyway?View Image"...everyone needs to sit on a rock, listen to the surf, and feel the ocean breeze in their face once in awhile."
cambriadays.com
it seems craftsmanship is on the decline, expectations have been lowered, mass-production and dumbing-down seem to be industry goals
I agree with that assessment. The best way get more for less is to actually get less. Everyone from the tree farmer to the carpet installer is always trying to deliver just a little less for the same price. Sometimes "less" is noticed and sometimes it isn't. But the corner-cutting is cumulative and eventually the effects are felt.
The consumer is driving this. I don't think it's a matter of right or wrong. It's what they want. But, they damn well better not complain when their $10 chinese piece of junk angle grinder falls apart (I didn't) or when they pull into the wrong driveway because all of the houses on their street are carbon copies of each other.
People tend to think that houses today are more expensive than ever, but that's probably because their expectations (of the delivered product, not the components or the craftsmanship) are greater than ever. My parents had 6 kids in their first house (a 7th came later). 1 bath and 4 bedrooms. Sure, they wanted more and eventually got it, but they didn't expect it. No one wants a 1 bathroom house today, myself included. Expectations rise, ways to meet those expectations are pursued. It's the normal course of events.
The trend that I dislike the most is when things that are built to merely mimic quality. So-called McMansions fall into this category for me. It's not like they're junk, but what's the point behind fake stone, 2-story foyers and needless roof planes? For me, it's sort of like those motorcyclists with loud exhausts... they're saying "look at me, look at me" as if their validation depends upon the opinion of others.
So, why would they want true craftsmanship when they can get bigger instead? The question answers itself. I raised 3 kids in a 2,000 sg. ft. house (it started as 1,000 sq. ft.) and in a few years, Ill be ready for something smaller. If properly designed, 1200 - 1500 should be quite workable. And I don't want a mini-McMansion. A cute, well-built bungalow is more my style.
One of these days, I'm going to have to get Susanka's book.
I think the values have really changed over the past ten years or so.I agree 100% with you that people need that image to display.Lets get Joe Hack to install Ikea cabinets in our kitchen so we can afford the Hummer or Escalade payment.Then we will look succesfull with it sitting in the driveway or as we pull in to TGIF or Applebees 5 or 6 times a week.We dont use the kitchen much anyways, right dear?
I think the energy efficiency movement is here to stay this time. People who can afford to make choices are more and more deciding to spend their money on a BETTER building instead of ostentatious Victorian or even Craftsman style buildings.
There has been an evolution of values. After WWII, when the economy recovered from the Great Depression, it was "houses for everyone!", which required less expensive housing for many. But wealthy, middle class, or poor, most of us want to get the most for our dollar. How we define "most" is changing, from elaborate ornamentation of the past, to maximum square feet, to less cost of ownership and maintanance.
That's where our profession is heading. At least up here in the Great Northwest.
Funny thing, though. I seem to remember reading an essay written by Emerson (or maybe Thoureau) titled "Economy". Even back then the Transcendentalists warned of where capitalism and a society of excess led. We didn't listen then, just like a lot of developing countries aren't listening now. It's not just our profession, Huck, it's societal; we're on a bad path.
It's not just our profession, Huck, it's societal; we're on a bad path.
Agreed. And I don't consider saying so to be whimpering, crying, whatever! Its just a fact (albeit a sad fact) of life. In my opinion, the wise man assesses the situation dispassionately, before deciding where to focus his passion.
Despite what some thought I had in mind with the original post, I don't think anyone can "change" the situation across the board. I do certain things because I have to live with myself, and want my actions to reflect my beliefs, not because I think I can actually change the direction of our consumerist, 'celebrity trumps integrity' society. Because it's societal, its too big a train to jump in front of and stop. But we have to find a niche that allows us to thrive or at least survive!View Image"...everyone needs to sit on a rock, listen to the surf, and feel the ocean breeze in their face once in awhile."
cambriadays.com
"I don't think anyone can "change" the situation across the board. "No - No ONE can change it across the board, but everyone acting positively and professionally can change it. ( kinda like peer moderatorizing here at BT, LOL)and what I am saying is that you can change the way it effects YOU and your attitude.I was talking with a bunch of other contractors last week about things slowing down and a great majority were expressing how great it was to not have the worries of managing the helpers anymore, with the cut-backs turning full crews into one and two man operations.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Reading a good book in this vein right now called Shop Class as Soulcraft, by Matthew Crawford. He talks about our society's attitude towards manual work and how it has changed and continues to change, and the satisfaction to be had in doing work with a tangible result every day. After twenty two years, I've never been in danger of getting rich, but I've made a living, and can't put a value on the control this work has given me over my life, and the satisfaction from being a productive , respected member of a community.
http://www.amazon.com/Shop-Class-Soulcraft-Inquiry-Value/dp/1594202230Thanks - hadn't heard of it before.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I was talking with a bunch of other contractors last week about things slowing down and a great majority were expressing how great it was to not have the worries of managing the helpers anymore, with the cut-backs turning full crews into one and two man operations.
I have a buddy in the business. A little different than what I do, but lately we have been helping each other out when the need arises. We pretty much just swap hours. We are the best helpers in the world!
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
"I think the energy efficiency movement is here to stay this time. People who can afford to make choices are more and more deciding to spend their money on a BETTER building instead of ostentatious Victorian or even Craftsman style buildings."
Nice to see someone thinking ahead of the game .
It is not about fine homebuilding and mansions . Its about saving money to have money . Its about weathering the storm that doesnt seem to have an end . People are thinking about raising chickens and burning wood and solar energy, and electric cars and etc. They arent thinking about 100,000 dollar kitchens . Lots have lost 100,000 by now .
But that doesnt make it gloom and doom. People are still having sex and getting pregnant and sustaining the population. They still have their needs and they will be granted .
most of us want to get the most for our dollar. How we define "most" is changing, from elaborate ornamentation of the past, to maximum square feet, to less cost of ownership and maintanance. That's where our profession is heading.
I seem to remember reading an essay written by Emerson (or maybe Thoureau) titled "Economy". Even back then the Transcendentalists warned of where capitalism and a society of excess led. We didn't listen then, just like a lot of developing countries aren't listening now. It's not just our profession, Huck, it's societal; we're on a bad path.
Man, I had a great, passionate reply written out, and hit the wrong button and deleted it!
I really enjoyed your post - of all the comments here, I think you've most succinctly nailed what I was aiming at. We're on a bad path - as a society. Yeah, yeah, I know, dripping with negativity. But on the flip side, there is an upswing in appreciation for well-designed and well-built homes, that cost less to own and operate.
The recent crash will force a reevaluation of priorities ("an evolution of values") and assumptions of the past (bigger is better, more fluff less stuff, illusion of quality, etc.). So as a result, I'd like to think the market for quality work will grow in the coming years (no, I'm not referring to setting baseboard with a water-level!). As energy costs rise, it would be nice to think that there will be an increased demand for homes that really squeeze the efficiency out of every cubic foot of space.View Image"...everyone needs to sit on a rock, listen to the surf, and feel the ocean breeze in their face once in awhile."
cambriadays.com
The trend that I dislike the most is when things that are built to merely mimic quality.
Great line. That is a gem, right there.
Its a trend, no doubt about it, that's affected every aspect of the retail environment in our consumer-crazed society. But as time goes on, we're seeing imitations of the imitations, and at some points the house of cards has to come down. Maybe it just did? I'm wondering if a reactionary movement might someday swing the pendulum back in the opposite direction?
Susanka's book is a breath of fresh air.View Image"...everyone needs to sit on a rock, listen to the surf, and feel the ocean breeze in their face once in awhile."
cambriadays.com
Or is quality work only to be accessible to the super-wealthy?
Well, that's part of the problem, I'm not sure they know any better, they just have more cash to toss at the problem. there are plenty of mansions, and sadly, near-mansions out there with really crummy design. All the high-skilled craft in the world will not change the fact that the buildings are design disasters.
Susanka's ideas real lwork best in designed environments. Her focus in on space use, not the size of a named space. Her argument is really against the "builder style" space listing that has various room names, and the only difference between houses by price is merely in the dimensions of those rooms.
Go to national tract builder A, the 1/4mill houses, the room on one side the entry is the living room, the other is the dining room; there's a family room near the kitchenroom in the back somewhere. In the 1/3mill and 1/2milll houses those rooms are still there, and still as useless as boar bustiers, just bigger.
I have a BiL who lives in a house that is "just bigger." It has all sorts of rooms without particular uses, but they do have acreage (except for the kitchen).
I do not believe that any more than a predictable portion of the bell curve are really footage gluttons, or want more space out of avarice, or to be coveted. It's more a case of that is what is available, of having come out of too-small aprtments, so it's not the desin, it's how far apart our "stuff" is.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
CapnMac
How far apart our stuff is isn't what they are trying to achieve.. They want space for future use such as dancing, parties family gatherings or some other reason.. Or they may simply be claustrophobic.
Differant choices don't make them bad people, it means that their priorities are differant from yours..
I have a giant room who's sole reason for existance is the holidays, Christmas and Thanksgiving.. We have a rather large extended family and it's fun to have a place where they can all gather..
Most of the rest of the year it collects dust but that happens to be my priority. I also have a very large shop beneath the house which always seems to be crammed full of stuff awaiting time for me to complete it.. Sure it's very pleasant to be able to walk down into the shop in my bare feet but the real pleasure is the efficency I'll have with enough space to complete projects without a lot of moving stuff around to get to it..
IN addition there is space for guests to stay over without us stepping on each other.. Or the space can be used should one of my children run into a rough patch and need to move back in with dad..
Space is not a waste unless it's purchaced without plan..
Space is not a waste unless it's purchaced without plan..
Which is near all of tract builder plan space.
Yours does not count, you planned for it; it was in the design program. It was not tacked on by some drafter in the plans shop, or the hack-shack plan house turning out plans 1 a day every day for no specified customer at all.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Thank you for your kind thoughts.
Let me be honest and say that years ago I dismissed Mc Mansions as a follow the leader, herd mentality thing. However I must say that since then I've certainly been through more than my share of Mc Mansions and met some of the people who live there.. While many of them are " look at this big house" kinda people, not all are.. some have thoughtful plans and ideas about how the space will be used. Not all have implimented their plans due to economic conditions but that doesn't mean the goal is no longer valid..
It's the same thing with SUV's and many other items common to here in America. Some understand them and use them wisely while many are simply following the herd..
"Sometimes we all have to know what the finished product is going to be. "Definitely - looking at the big picture instead of the one nail you are driving makes all the difference in the world.Part of what Huck is saying is that it is harder to do that when the customer wants you to drive that nail for half as much money as you deserve, so you have to drive twice as many in the same time period to earn a living. You allowed the market to dictate your focus when that happens.Step back and renew your focus on the overall.That is what Huck is trying to do with this thread
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Part of what Huck is saying is that it is harder to do that when the customer wants you to drive that nail for half as much money as you deserve, so you have to drive twice as many in the same time period to earn a living. You allowed the market to dictate your focus when that happens.
Step back and renew your focus on the overall.
That is what Huck is trying to do with this thread
Well, I'd like to think I was on the same page.
That one answer is in being able to use our "knowledge base" to approach the economy here. Trim carpentry does not "look" hard to do, until a less-skilled person tries. But, the answer is not always to always sell more stain-grade trim.
But, being able to address the situation differently can help. Like suggesting a pivture-hanging rail to create an area to be pained or papered in a frieze band to define a room.
What I cannot address are the boors and bozos out there who want $1.50 for 75¢, and are you sure you can't get by on 55¢? This is a sore topic as a local [deleted] is building a 6th building in his apartment complex. He's been beating up all the subs to "give" him stuff, or they are fired and he can get people to work cheaper. And, he really does not care what corners are cut. (New units are similar to existing, and will rent for the same price, yet are 27% smaller.) How cheap and uncaring? T/P on th eWH are plumbed in thin-wall pvc. No c/o on the stacks, all clogs will have to be snaked from the roof, three stories up. Some customers will always be the problem.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Vic,You seem to think Huck is crying in his cheerios.That's not what he is doing at all.Read again.He is asking why 'the profession' has such 'bad press'. Taken for granted. Expected to work for less and less. Etc.Why construction as a trade is becoming 'third class'. While other trades haven't experienced that.And how can we, 'profession-wide', change that negative perception of our chosen trade.I don't have the answer, but I think I understand the question...you never know how deep a puddle is from the top......You are always welcome at Quittintime
Thanks for that. In the middle of an upheaval, its kinda hard to see where you'll end up. I'm just asking for any thoughts on where the ship is headed, and why. We're in a great transition period, nationwide and probably worldwide. The world will be a different place, just wondering how the fine homebuilding industry will emerge from all this.View Image"...everyone needs to sit on a rock, listen to the surf, and feel the ocean breeze in their face once in awhile."
cambriadays.com
"Do you think the industry could do a better job educating the public?"Absolutely!This would be a great subject for FHB to take on. Their audience is DIYs and people who are interested in quality homebuilding.I occasionally write an article in local newspapers that focuses on this very thing.I encourage kids with abilities to get into the trades, and point out that since there are fewer and fewer people directing themselves that way over the past 20 years, they will be in high demand and be able to command high wages once they are skilled.We have a whole generation of baby boomers who are ready to retire that will leave a large gap in the field. Will it be filled by Americans or by immigrants?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"Do you think the industry could do a better job educating the public?"
Absolutely!
This would be a great subject for FHB to take on. Their audience is DIYs and people who are interested in quality homebuilding.
I occasionally write an article in local newspapers that focuses on this very thing.
I would love to see FHB include an article on this topic, especially written by our own here.
I say go for it!
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
Huck,
The primary focus of my business used to be trim carpentry for residential new construction. My setup was geared towards this kind of job... I've had to rethink everything.
Now the jobs are generally smaller, mostly remodels or commercial. Also doing more shop work (building just a few custom cabs to match existing--minor changes and new tops, rather than a new kitchen or small orders of custom millwork).
When new construction slowly starts back up, I expect the home to be somewhat smaller and don't think it will be the majority of my business again.
The change in work to smaller jobs has hit my bottom line. I am simply not pricing them to reflect the relatively large amount of setup and take-down time. Hanging and trimming one door takes me a couple of hours. Compare that to hanging and trimming 15 in a day.
Interesting thread... but I have to get to work. I'll off to do the glamourous work of installing a storm door... I expect it to take all day ;o)
I've had to rethink everything...jobs are generally smaller, mostly remodels or commercial. Also doing more shop work...The change in work to smaller jobs has hit my bottom line. I am simply not pricing them to reflect the relatively large amount of setup and take-down time.
There you go, the reason I started this thread. To survive, we have to look at where we're headed. I agree, the market for opulent trimwork will not likely return in the same form.
Rethink everything - that's the key to survival!
Don't know if anyone saw or cared, but did you notice how in a recent interview Kobe talked about giving as much attention to strategy and the mental aspects of his game as to the physical training? View Image"...everyone needs to sit on a rock, listen to the surf, and feel the ocean breeze in their face once in awhile."
cambriadays.com
I don't know where the profession is going but I sincerely believe there will always be room/demand for smart, talented, experienced people.
I do think builders, carpenters etc. should try to foster a professional attitude so that customers will value them for what they know, not just what they do. I don't care for example, who prepares the documents at my lawyer's office; his secretary or his word processor or himself. But I darn well want to feel confident that the points expressed in those documents reflect the knowledge of the attorney, and I'm willing to pay for that knowledge.
When people start to just think of a tradesman completing a procedure, that's when the work starts looking like a commodity. Crown moulding is crown moulding, right? So why not just shop for the lowest price? This is where we have to try and educate the customers as to why a certain method takes longer, produces a better result, and costs more. So now, in addition to bringing in the tools and hanging the crown, we have to leave some time for education.
There have been lots of times when I've checked the price on something and after really educating myself on the subject, chosen the highest price because in the long run it would be the best value.
None of what you added is new. Those same concerns are ages old. Our profession is headed the same direction as it always has been heading, no better no worse. It's always been better to work with a clip board than with a hammer. Management has always made more money and earned more respect than labor. And there have always been a select few that rise above all else, and find a way to earn both money and respect.
Nothing is different now. Millions have come before us and millions have come after. Being a carpenter is nothing special. Anyone can take up the profession. And as a whole, as always, we are own worst enemy as far as earning money and earning respect go. There always has been, and always will be someone that will come in, under value themself and under bid you. That certainly is not anything new.
As I said, a select few will find a way. My Grandfather made money through the depression charging prices no one would pay. He stayed busy. My father raised us charging prices no one would pay. He stayed busy. I charge the higher end of the market and I stay busy. Nothing is new under the sun.
I do have one question. When someone posts that the price they were quoted was "too high", are you one of the many that will type a reply saying "Yes, that is too high"?
If so, then you are our enemy. Yours and mine both.
We are own worst enemy. Vic
I have to disagree. I think that it takes special skills, both physical and mental, to be a good carpenter.
I've seen guys who barely knew which end of the hammer to hold. They could be whizzes at something else, but a good carpenter needs a combination of physical dexterity and visualization skills that aren't all that common together.
I do agree with you about the pricing. I've never reduced my prices just because a customer whined.
You obviously have never worked for a bigger company or on a crew. Being a carpenter isn't anything special. It's a job most guys take when nothing else is available. We don't exactly get the creme of the crop in our field.
Becoming a great carpenter or a money making, hands on company owner may take some special skills, but it's not all that hard to become a decent working carpenter. I think you hold too romantic a view of the trade. Most guys do it just to get by. Some are actually pretty talented in one way or another, but let's not try to fool ourselves, we're not curing cancer here. We're nailing sticks of wood together.
And to my original point, that also hasn't changed in eons. I myself am a damn fine carpenter and skilled highly in many aspects of the trade. But I don't hold what I do in such a high opinion. I simply go to work to make money. I also have a knack for working with people and fidning a way to connect, so my sales are always on the higher end. I'm more proud of my close ratio than my carpenter skills. There are plenty of hobbiest out there who care more about honing their craft. Too much honing your craft can run you right out of business. I don't seek perfection, I work hard so I don't have to work alot. Again, no romantic here. Vic
If you don't think there is anything special about carpentry, then there probably isn't anything special about your carpentry. I chose carpentry as a profession, but not because I had no other options. I have a degree and prior careers in Forestry and Environmental Science. Carpentry is simply what I enjoy and take pride in.Oh and striving for perfection is what keeps me in business, when others have nothing to do.
Bravo, well said.
my end of the profession is engineering, especially concrete foundation and soils. I was looking around the office and the last people we hired was a shrimp boat hand, waffle house cook and a tatoo artist. think about it last week a tatoo artist and know telling you how to place your concrete
Another way of looking at things is that when they are few carpenters and craftsmen then prices will go up and the demand for each person will go up. For those in the trade that is encouraging. Take a look at http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes119021.htmand http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos202.htm
Just happily doing what I do. :o)
Basswood,
I think what Vmackey said is essentially true
however-- that doesn't mean it applies to YOU specifically. huck has another thread in which he posted some cool historical pictures. In any one of those pictures there may be 5 guys----- I gaurantee you that in every one of those pictures ONE of the guys is a person much like you-------maybe one other guy is a person on his way to being much like you--------and the other 3 guys are---as Vmackey describes---- just nailing sticks together. go in any average modern home--- look at the carpentry. Is there anything special about it?-- no of course not----but somebody did it--it had to be done-----and not everybody WANTS special another thing to note------- those pictures huck graciously shared----how many of them were taken during boomtimes? shell builder touched on this , I think-- the natural ebb and flow of construction when I found "breaktime" back in ,what 1997-98?----- I noticed something that bothered me even then. guys would talk about how good their business was doing---they would say they had been in business for 3 years and the business was growing by leaps and bounds------and invariably they would attribute this "success" to" I do good work and people value that"----- but I thought then-- and I think NOW--- that their success was due to an almost un-precedented building boom. their work may have very well been rather ordinary( nothing special)----- but there was a huge market for it.
I gotta run now----- but before I go I wanna say I think you are one of the classiest guys around here-----something you mentioned a day or so highlights this. you mentioned that your big project for the day was installing a storm door----certainley not a project that is going to max out your talents---- but you are a pro--and you do it, collect the money and go home. that's a trait I respect in several of the guys in this forum--- I NEVER see them complain-- they do what needs to be done--and they make the best of it.Very best wishes,
stephen
I started my business in 1982. My business was exactly the opposite of what most saw. The man and former employer who got me started in business experienced the same thing I did. Business was good for me when the economy was down because I did work for wealthy people and poorer when times were good. Average folks were always looking for a deal and rich folks know what things cost. Average folks do not know what quality looks like and rich folks have had many things done so they know more what to expect.Recently I started teaching construction management at a university. Typically a student who comes from a technical school may or may not be very well prepared. Often they are well prepared in the mechanics of things such as CAD but not in terms of the knowledge of construction and the construction industry. One of the classes I teach (estimating) is often taught under the same name at junior colleges and technical school. However the students coming from junior colleges and technical schools only get about 1/3 to 1/2 of what I actually teach. Last years I had a students get made at me because I would not give him credit for an estimating class he had taken at another school. Then I finally told him that I would be glad to give the midterm and final.
Hi Stephen,Here is what I uncovered at the storm door gig... rotten posts bottoms, flooring and rim joists... amazing what you can hide behind coil stock and flashing. Now I have a little porch rebuilding going on:
Basswood,
I have made the better part of my living for 20 years or so on the roofing equivalent of that stormdoor project. I am not too proud to do it---it's my preferred type of work anyhow. Interestingly--several weeks ago andyC mentioned some books by James Krenov. I already owned one of them---but I went ahead and ordered some others---- had a chance to crack one of them today----------well low and behold---from the opening pages Krenov is talking about much the same thing Huck is complaining about today--low pay, most people won't appreciate what you are doing---they can buy cheaper elswhere-and so onwhen was the book first published??? 1976 there is nothing new under the sun---craftsman have never been particularly well paid in general-----and I imagine they have been complaining about the death of craftsmanship for along time--- painters complaining about ready made paints instead of mixing their own with linseed oil and ochre-----, the lack of pitsawn lumber now that these newfangled water mills have caught on--the invention of the wire nail............
somebody is always complaining--and somebody else is always seeing an opportunity in a problem someone else mentioned the natural winnowing out of contractors occuring during these "famine times'-- I am seeing it in action up close-----got a call thursday from a guy asking If he could use me as a reference on a job application------- i first met the guy back around 1995---- he has done construction clean-ups for me for almost 12 years or more---a couple years ago he tried to start into the roofing business----but he wouldn't develope his own clientelle-----preferred to simply work as a sub-------now he has nothing-- no customer base to fall back on---if he had done what I had been suggesting to him since 1995--he would have hundreds--probobaly several thousand satisfied customers to fall back on for referalls in the fall of 2008---i mentally got out my crystal ball--and figured my income for2009 would be 1/3-to 1/2 of what it was in 2007 and 2008-- i figured it would be a return to my early days, cleaning out spouting,re-flashing valleys etc.-----all low end repair work turns out---- it's the OTHER end of the market--- several slate projects, tile roof projects, high end roof replacements----- the "craftsmanship" end of my trade that is supposed to be disappearing is what is keeping me afloat and moderately comfortable. BTW-- I assume you took off the old door and some trim--uncovered the rot---and then what---- sounds like the start of an unwelcome,uncomfortable conversation with the homeowner?---- In my case i have often absorbed the costs of some unexpected stuff--just to avoid that conversation----got any tips on breaking un-expected bad news???stephen
there is nothing new under the sun---craftsman have never been particularly well paid in general-----and I imagine they have been complaining about the death of craftsmanship for along time--- painters complaining about ready made paints instead of mixing their own with linseed oil and ochre-----, the lack of pitsawn lumber now that these newfangled water mills have caught on--the invention of the wire nail............somebody is always complaining--and somebody else is always seeing an opportunity in a problem
...and let us not forget to add, always someone complaining about their fellow craftsmen! BTW, thanks for mentioning me in the same context as Krenov - that's a high compliment! He is a real artist with wood.
View Image"...everyone needs to sit on a rock, listen to the surf, and feel the ocean breeze in their face once in awhile."
cambriadays.com
Edited 6/20/2009 7:17 pm by Huck
Here is something along those lines - Over the pastr year, I have done a LOT of small repair jobs working alone. Common to get to a house to repair one thing, thinking I had three hours to three days of work and end up with three weeks or more, pointing out along the way each step to the owner how this SHOULD have been done in the first place to avoid causing this rot...marketing pure and simple - educating the consumer.So now, I am suddenly getting calls and comments about this job and that job referral - "I want YOU to do this because I just don't trust anybody else"Quality sells itself.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
underpaid and underappreciated craftsman, circa 1900 (I guess some things never do change!).
View Image
Oops, wrong thread!View Image"...everyone needs to sit on a rock, listen to the surf, and feel the ocean breeze in their face once in awhile."
cambriadays.com
"got any tips on breaking un-expected bad news???"
Yes: set the stage BEFORE the job commences. You probably already do that when you are selling a roof. You probably have a clause in your contract that explains that you MIGHT find some rotten wood and it will be repaired AT AN ADDITIONAL COST.
Thats true . It doesnt give them a number . Cant brace for that unless you could tell them. 1,000, 4,000, 7,000 ? Gulp.
I should learn from my car mechanic----- he has my truck taken apart---------tells me XYZ ALSO needs done----what am I gonna do?---can't really shop around at that point.
stephen
I think they call it at their mercy.
blue,
most of my projects are extremely clearely defined and I generally have an excellent idea of what I am getting into but sometimes that costs me the project. my neighbor( landscape contractor)-came over about a week ago to give me the update on a mutual customer.-- I roofed the customers house several years ago-------and this spring he had some siding and decking repairs he wanted done.-- first I gave him a price on his initial project request--- replacing t1-11 siding on both gable end walls of his house--- he was astounded by that price---and asked for a price to vinyl the house---- not really my prefered thing to do-----but I gave him a pricewell-- my price was too high--he went with someone else---who didn't show,and didn't show,and didn't show-------and then once he DID show up and do the work------the final bill was MORE than my proposal----which has the customer steamed!!!!My landscaper/neighbor pointed out to the customer" I TOLD you to have steve do it---the lowest price is often NOT the lowest price"
stephen
most of my projects are extremely clearely defined and I generally have an excellent idea of what I am getting into...but sometimes that costs me the project.
I can relate. I tend to be very thorough in my bids, and like Mike said, bid like a pessimist. I have many times had people (who didn't hire me) tell me "I wish I had went with you. In the end, with all the 'extras' - that you had included in your bid - I paid more and got a lesser quality". To which I respond, "thanks for nothing" (PR and sales is not my strong point, as you can see! ...but I'm working on it).View Image"...everyone needs to sit on a rock, listen to the surf, and feel the ocean breeze in their face once in awhile."
cambriadays.com
"To which I respond, "thanks for nothing""Change that and say, "Please remember that next time, or when your friends need a reference"
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Yep - customers take the lowest bid then are surprised when their project either doesn't get finished or is a total piece of ####.
I've heard "I wish I'd used you guys." too many times.
I didn't know cr@p was censored.
I never know what surprises await me, hidden behind flashing and coil stock cladding. It seems like half the time that stuff does more harm than good.The homeowners realized that the scope of the job quadrupled and so did the price. This is always unwelcome news though. It helps that this is the main entrance so the improvements will be making a nice statement (unlike structural repairs in a crawl space, etc).I also sold them on upgrading the side lights to tempered glass for safety... could have just done minimal repairs. Ended up creating a whole new entrance with storm door, sidelights, transom and a mail slot. I'll put the glass in at the end of the week (the tempered stuff gets trucked in as a special order).
wow, that turned out nice!View Image
Thanks Huck.I make the drip caps and sills out of 5/4 by 6 cedar decking. Sills use the whole board (except for the 15* bevel ripped off one edge) but for drip caps, I rip the 15* bevel right down the middle and get two sets of cap stock from one board. I also plow a drip groove.
I find that when I make drip caps and sills, I can't properly prime(get a brush into) a single blade width drip stop under the sill/cap, I do two passes with the TS.
Were most other windows in the house tall like the two flanking the sidelights?I more commonly see the transom spread over the sidelights like this one. ( you might have to twist your head around the corner a bit to see it)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
The posts on either side of the door went all the way up to the beam and I stayed with that layout. I did not redesign it much. The side lights are about the same height as all the storms though.I do like your pic though.
So, this is what I think about the near future for our industry.
Everything will cost more, contractors will have to charge more to stay in business (gas, insurance, loans, supplies have all gone up for me)
Since the middle-class is shrinking, and the poverty class is growing, remodelers and builders will largely service wealthy property owners.
A few talented craftsmen and union craftsmen will get paid excellent wages, the majority of construction workers will see a decline in wages, and many will make little more than minimum wage (as insurance and other costs rise, there is less money available to the contractor to pay his crew)
What was once considered sub-standard workmanship will become the norm.
the DIY and handyman contingency, and the bootleg, or unlicensed and "cash-under-the-table" contingency will stay steady, fueled by the higher costs of legitimate contractors, and the shrinking income of the average american, and the fact that many homes once the property of proud owners are now rental units requiring a lower standard of workmanship.
Big Business will take a bigger share of the smaller jobs, as big-box stores continue to promote their "we can install it" marketing, along with the offer of financing through their store.
Big Business will take a bigger share of homebuilding, as pre-fab and CNC become a larger factor in the building market.
And as many have said, there will always be talented craftsmen managing to making a living within the industry.View Image
This is what I think:Energy costs will keep climbing. This will make labor costs a smaller percentage of product prices and transportation (international shipping) will become cost prohibitive. This will help revive manufacturing and jobs here. "Made in the USA" will become a long term trend upwards.There will not be a boom in building for a long time, but a very very slow recovery. The few new homes built will be smaller and more energy efficient. Building this way means more attention to details and quality and higher cost per s.f. ("Not So Big House" stuff).Cheesy suburbs, far from jobs, will loose value due to cost and time of commuting (and general lack of quality and character). These will become the new rental ghettos. Old neighborhoods, near city centers, will be revitalized. Restoration, Remodeling, Additions, Energy efficiency retrofits, Popping the tops, infill development will be more common.The kind of jobs mentioned above need higher than average skill... meanwhile the lack of vocational training and apprenticeships in these trades is tragically evident. This means those trades people who are highly skilled will be in short supply and the demand will only grow.I think the future looks so bright, I gotta wear shades!
I think one thing you could do is financing of projects. Enough to keep you going thru periods like now.You could resell the paper and make enough to invest and cover your nut. All the work after would be on a You Choose basis.You are much too talented to be experiencing these ups and downs. An artist needs some patrons..You sir are an artist...dan
Thats mighty kind of you - but I don't have a clue how to finance a job, and not sure I'd want to. Risk and all that. In fact, I tell people I won't finance their job, that way I get progress payments set up to cover the costs.
And lots of talented people are going through the ups and mostly downs right now! So at least I'm in good company!
thanks, 'tho. I can live for a week on one good compliment! (Mark Twain quote)
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Well, your right about never working for a big company. I started out working for my dad and grandfather. The largest we ever were was 5-6 guys.
Now I work alone most of the time. I have customers who only call me when they want work done.
While you think I have a romantic view of the trade, I think you have a bit too cynical view of it.
But each to their own.
We are in a herd thinning, happens every 5 years. Unfortunately the cycle did not happen between 97 and 07. It has always been 3 good and 2 bad as far as I can remember back to 73. I tink we have 2 more years of slow t make up for that miss in the schedule. I am swamped with work and have been for 31 years.
Lots of bungalows in Chicago, all built for "middle class" buyers, and they all have something to offer in the details if you step back and look at the home. Different pattern in the brickwork, maybe a stained or leaded glass panel in a couple of windows, something in the trimwork, a unique door... the list goes on.
Fast forward to now, and few of those things exist. I wouldn't call the original bungalows custom or semi custom homes... the scale of the building is more comparable to modern tract homes. Yet, most modern tract homes pale in comparison.
Cheap windows, vinyl siding, plastic trim... it's all built as cheaply as possible and sold for as much as possible. Providing value isn't even part of the equation. People talk "green", but does replacing 7 year old builders grade vinyl windows with new windows have any redeeming environmental qualities?
Most importantly, the people building the house must get the job done in the time allowed by the builder (the bid) so the subcontractor can still make a profit on the low bid job. How in the heck can there be any time for "craftsmanship" under those conditions?
It's all about sheets of drywall hung, squares of roofing or siding installed, feet of conduit, square feet of framing... never about quality... and when people are paid based upon output (paid per square, sheet, block/brick, home start) then corners get cut to increase output.
Maybe I am off base here, but where are the opportunites for pride in a job well done in this environment?
<<Maybe I am off base here, but where are the opportunites for pride in a job well done in this environment?>> The opportunities come when you create them. It's no
different then any other line of work. Most people will
fill a position that offers a paycheck and nothing more. However some will set themselves apart through personal
skills, abilities and dedication. I'm not talking about some fairy tale idealism here, but
rather how life truly works. No, your not going to get to build masterpieces by offering
the lowest bid. Your going to get the chance by putting that
care and creativity into every job you do. Build a name and clientele for yourself based upon excellence
and this topic won't be of concern for you.
Maybe I am off base here, but where are the opportunites for pride in a job well done in this environment?
Exactly. While the intent of this thread was to invite a step back and a look at where the trends are taking us, as a society, and as a profession within that society, its surprising how many people don't / won't take that look. Surprising to me anyway how many want to close their eyes and say, No, I won't look! Why should we look at where our society and profession are headed? Its the same as its always been, its all good, I can mentally create my own reality! Reminds me of Bob in the movie "What About Bob?", saying to himself "I feel good, I feel great, I feel wonderful. I feel good, I feel great, I feel wonderful," over and over.
Of course, if mentally creating their own reality works for some, then let them carry on. No harm no foul. But you wonder why there is a need to attack those who do want to peek out at the bigger socio/economic picture and describe what they see. Because they have found a 'comfort zone niche' - maybe a wealthy, isolated community, or a business model that works for them within the narrow little milieu they operate in, they seem to feel as if that affords them a certain smugness, and justification, even pride, in pouncing on anyone who makes observations like yours. "Argh, naysayers! Nattering nabobs of negativity!" Like little Jack Horners, they prefer to sit in their corners, admiring their plums and saying "what a good boy am I!".
And yet the big freight train we are all operating on moves forward, taking us all along for the ride.
What I've been pondering is, Do you think the trends will reverse themselves, as craftsmanship becomes more rarified, and all those houses so poorly built begin to unravel, and it begins to sink in that maybe the baby got dumped with the bathwater?
As you rightfully observed, for so long the bigger trend was, A house isn't a home, its an investment. Crank 'em out, build 'em cheap, sell 'em high, the rising equity will justify the means.
But not so any longer. The boat has changed course. Someone swithched the train track. Changed the game rules. What phoenix will emerge from the ashes of this economy? Methinks for better or worse, it won't be the same.
Just some random thoughts of my own, enjoyed hearing yours!
View Image"...everyone needs to sit on a rock, listen to the surf, and feel the ocean breeze in their face once in awhile."
cambriadays.com
Edited 6/20/2009 6:52 pm by Huck
Perhaps, your turning a blind eye to the "Reality"
of nothing changes. People have always wanted the Taj Mahal for a nickel and a dime.
The trades have always been filled with the poor and uneducated
of society. The economy has always fluctuated up and down,
While building fashions reflect those changes. The "Your head is in the sand" retort doesn't take into consideration
that Some see things in a longer view. Which does make for a very
different perspective. As far as I can tell today's situation is unique only in that the
pond keeps getting larger.
huck i totally agree w u about the course the trades are on and i am speaking of all trades i went to cooking school years ago and was appalled by the end product that the school was unleashing on the industry but it was all about having the schools numbers look good(in terms of what percentage graduated and were placed in jobs).my dismay at how each consecutive class watered down the field led me to abandon their whole system that they operated in. in the construction area i know and understand that there are many talented and inspired craftsman out there however as you said you have to live in your market and mine locally does not value craftsmanship. there are plenty of custom home builders cranking out huge houses that i could singn up with to run miles of colonial trim but i like you have chosen not to.and the other side of the market is feast or famine and i am not quite sure why it angers other for us to say that to eachother
Noah
Huck,I see the downturn in the economy as an opportunity. When things change those who are paying attention can jump on new market niches.With new construction at a virtual standstill, remodeling is now the place to be. However, even that market is lackluster and the competition is fierce... so you have to be able to offer something unique.Think Small! Projects I get these days are mostly very small. But most lead to more work for a variety of reasons ("pull on that string" syndrome--AKA--scope creep, repeats and referrals).This week I had a storm door install, very mundane, but I noticed that the bottom of the trimmer studs for the storm RO were so rotten they moved... turns out the flooring and rim joist was rotten too. Turned into a much bigger job and it is for two college professors with lots of friends.Last week I also milled a 4' piece of basecap, to match existing, for a doorway that was rocked over in a remodel. It was a simple Craftsman profile, but not available, and too small a quantity to have knives made and pay for a custom run ($200). I could do it in 3 table saw passes and 3 router passes, for half the price of the millwork shop. It will probably lead to building and installing an A&C Oak pocket door too.Get Creative! A customer had a back entry with 4 doorways meeting in a 4x4' landing with doors opening into each other (access to garage, coat closet, basement and kitchen). Turned the coat closet into an open "Mini-Mudroom." Built a bench and coat hook area with overhead storage. Now they can come in and sit down, set bags down, kick off shoes, etc. without opening another door. Small project in a simple home, but now what was the most aggravating part of their home is now the coolest feature in the home.Be Fearless... take on work others balk at. I will be doing several built-up Victorian trim projects. The combination of miters and butt joints in some of these assemblies were too intimidating for the carpenter on this job. I said, "Sure I can do that." Now the builder is calling me "Michelangelo" and I have a new friend.
Hey Michaelangelo - I appreciate the comments - I'm actually doing pretty well right now - thankful to have work when a lot of people don't. Since I work alone, smaller jobs is pretty much what I do. Although I've got connections to do larger projects, if any come up. The remodeling market here has always been pretty cutthroat, but the competition has thinned significantly of late, so for me, it hasn't been a real problem.
Really, my comments were directed at the overall picture of our industry. I'm personally doing well with my business plan - I made more money than Chrysler Motors last year! But a lot of people (not you) seem to equate any comments about where the industry is headed to "crying in your beer". Kinda hard for me to understand the particular brand of negativity that automatically imputes self-pitying motives to those who make observations about trends in our society and our profession.
I haven't clicked on your pics yet, I'll go back and do that. I always know I'm in for a treat when you post photos. So, when you gonna plaster that Sistine church ceiling, anyway!View Image"...everyone needs to sit on a rock, listen to the surf, and feel the ocean breeze in their face once in awhile."
cambriadays.com
Contractors are going to have to be lean and mean to survive. Targeting the very small jobs will keep many of us afloat. Thursday I looked at a house that is only about 25 years old but was detailed so badly that all the window sills were rotten and the bottom plates and rim joist on one side of the house are rotting too. It is a funky modern place... but man what a piece of work. Poor workmanship during the boom years will keep us busy fixing stuff the rest of our careers. I look around see work all around me... just waiting to be done... so I remain optimistic. I'll do my share of the work, I'm sure.
Contractors are going to have to be lean and mean to survive. Targeting the very small jobs will keep many of us afloat... Poor workmanship during the boom years will keep us busy fixing stuff the rest of our careers. I look around see work all around me... just waiting to be done... so I remain optimistic.
There is truth in that, to be sure. I have no doubt that at my age, I can fill the rest of my years repairing the cr@p that's been produced in the last 25 years. But I also suspect that we'll see bigger corporations going for the smaller stuff, too - like Lowes and Home Depot, Sears Home Improvement, etc. Still operating on the wal-mart business model of corporate skimming, underpaid labor, and substandard or semi-acceptable work.
I remain optimistic that I will continue to be able to support myself with my tools and my skills - otherwise I'd be getting out of the business, like so many others! But its more of a guarded optimism (don't you love how politicians have added that phrase to our vocabulary!) that craftsmanship will once again come into vogue, as a reaction to the more stringent energy requirements of homebuilding, and to the plethora or problems which are the product of poor workmanship. In other words, I can always hope!
View Image"...everyone needs to sit on a rock, listen to the surf, and feel the ocean breeze in their face once in awhile."
cambriadays.com
Edited 6/20/2009 4:19 pm by Huck
i know a huge asphalt paver that will take jobs at dollar plus cost to keep from laying people off. jobs like that hurt everybody because his equpiment paid for. not everybody cost is the same.
i know a huge asphalt paver that will take jobs at dollar plus cost to keep from laying people off. jobs like that hurt everybody because his equpiment paid for. not everybody cost is the same.
Yup. Gotta story to tell you about that, but have to run for now.View Image"...everyone needs to sit on a rock, listen to the surf, and feel the ocean breeze in their face once in awhile."
cambriadays.com
There is truth in that, to be sure. I have no doubt that at my age, I can fill the rest of my years repairing the cr@p that's been produced in the last 25 years. But I also suspect that we'll see bigger corporations going for the smaller stuff, too - like Lowes and Home Depot, Sears Home Improvement, etc. Still operating on the wal-mart business model of corporate skimming, underpaid labor, and substandard or semi-acceptable work.
There's a mouthful....
Funny I was just saying something about that in another thread so many people blame rotted windows and siding and trim on the fact it was made from wood instead of the real reason poor installation details and no maintenance. It kills me people buy a $500,000 house and then can't afford to keep the gutter's clean and the paint touched up. Then they call you when everything needs replacing due to rot.
Wood should last for hundreds of years. I just try to think like a raindrop. ;o)http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:Rjsk8UZClacJ:www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/usda/hgb073.pdf+wood+decay+percent+moisture&cd=3hl=en&ct=clnkgl=us&client=safari
Pardon the gloom and doom, but in my opinion we (society, at least in the USA) are moving down the wrong path.
Those 1950's Chicago bungalows were originally bought by middle class people in middle class jobs being paid a middle class wage. More often than not, the wife stayed at home because she didn't *have* to work. Now, more often than not, two incomes are needed... which brings about other issues like letting the $8 an hour daycare employee raise your kid (with 30 others) during the most impressionable period of their lives... while they charge you $300 a week for less than 8 hours a day.
Those middle class jobs have been all but outsourced.
The tradesman making $1000 a week in the 1980's is still making $1000 a week today... so wages have stagnated... yet production has increased tremendously through power tools and methods that were pipe dreams in the past.
I bet you can't duplicate the Chicago bungalow today for less than $500,000.00 when vinyl tract homes sell for $250,000.00 and up. What was a middle class wage then is gone now.
I have worked in and on more homes that I can't afford in 2 lifetimes than homes I can afford... and I am in what most would consider the middle class wage bracket.. pretty much right between $50k and $100k. That is different this year as I have been out of work for almost 6 months now.
The people that can afford craftsmanship/skill/doing it right will continue to seek it out and pay for it. I hope to find more of those people and ride their coattails.
The rest of us that are victims of the WalMart and "next quarters profits" mentalities in the USA won't be seeking out craftsmanship because the cost is too high.
Oh, and let's not leave out the people that "won't be living here long, and I don't want to fix it right"...
Oh, and let's not leave out the people that "won't be living here long, and I don't want to fix it right"...
HAH! I hear that all the time...you been following me around?
Yours was a good post, and I feel a pretty accurate assessment of the situation. I didn't see it as doom and gloom, 'tho others might. Despite what some have said, things do change (oh yeah, duh, nothing new under the sun - including change and upheaval of political and economic systems) and I think you've hit on a few key changes of the last 50 years - decline in middle class due to outsourcing jobs for pennies on the dollar, decline in craftsmanship at a level that used to be widely available, and a general decline in appreciation for craftsmanship.
BTW, since I support my family pretty much on one income (my wife's income as a used books and antiques dealer is small and sporadic at best, so it cannot be relied on for living expenses), I don't think I've ever worked on a home I could afford! If someone owns a home in my income bracket, they can't afford me! I can barely afford myself, which is why I have so many unfinished projects on my home (that's my story anyway, and I'm sticking to it!)
View Image"...everyone needs to sit on a rock, listen to the surf, and feel the ocean breeze in their face once in awhile."
cambriadays.com
Edited 6/20/2009 6:51 pm by Huck
Frankly I dont understand that thinking .
Fine homebuilding might be whats available to some but more over its a dream .
Im making money in this dead economy and Im not negative . Your post was dripping with it but I understand you were just wondering .
Every property that I buy more or less picks me . I dont pick at all. I take whats given to me . If you want to draw with your inside straight draw , Ill call bets with my flush. If I dont have a flush Ill probably fold . Im not gonna force a hand thats not there. Get your money in the middle of the table with the best hand , not your ego. If you keep doing that you hold the odds.
Ive known carpenters that get "bit " wanting to pick fine homebuilding methods with every thing they work on. It doesnt always fit of course and they are forcing the hands they are playing . I knew a carpenter that set his base boards with a water level on a big nice home . He never got to finish another one . Word got out he did it while camping at the milk barn.
There are a few builders that have made it a legit business but its taken more builders to the cleaners . In most of those cases the owner is smarter than the builder by a long shot . Its like what was the builder thinking ? You have a guy that doesnt bet all night long and moves all in , what is it that you think he has in his hand? They didnt get the money for that house by living stupid.
Everyone loves to do nice work and feel good about themselves with a great sense of pride but its the devils advocate somtimes. Theres a long line wishing they would have just took the money. Their sitting there asking themselves , "why didnt you just take the money you dumb ####?"
My Dad was a mega builder for the area. I got to watch every thing . People with money had lawyers and they werent afraid to use them. At least threaten. They could run a bluff too. They could always settle out of court 2 years later and pay the same bill they owed when you got done . The builders life is on the line and those kinda people can play games with the same amount . Dad built those houses and he built tracks as well. If he was around he would tell you that he made a pile more money building tracks at the right time . Hands down with a lot less worries. He always got paid on a track house. That was a life long message to his son.
Tim
'Pragmatist trumps idealist.'
'Fine homebuilding is a fantasy, not a reality'
'Anyone who questions where the industry is headed is dripping with negativity'
'Rich people screw builders, better to build tract homes'
'craftsmanship is for fools with a water level for setting baseboard'
I think I'm starting to get it.
View Image"...everyone needs to sit on a rock, listen to the surf, and feel the ocean breeze in their face once in awhile."
cambriadays.com
Edited 6/20/2009 11:07 am by Huck
Well let me ask you a question.
Are you interrested in fine home building or making money?
Are you interrested in fine home building or making money?
yes
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ok, edited to add: yes, I'd like to be paid for what I do. But money isn't the draw for me. I have left more lucrative jobs to pursue what interests me, which is the pleasure of doing quality construction work. I enjoy supervising and hands-on equally, each has its own challenges and rewards.
View Image"...everyone needs to sit on a rock, listen to the surf, and feel the ocean breeze in their face once in awhile."
cambriadays.com
Edited 6/21/2009 12:06 am by Huck
If I ever win the lottery I will keep doing fine carpentry until it is ALL gone....
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"After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion" -Neil deGrasse Tyson
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If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
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according to statistical analysis, "for some time now, bears apparently have been going to the bathroom in the woods."
If I ever win the lottery I will keep doing fine carpentry until it is ALL gone...
ROFLMAO!! You and me brother, you and me.
BTW, I defer to Hazlett and Mooney in business - they think with their heads, I think with my heart. After 54 years, I've come to accept that's just the way I'm made.View Image"...everyone needs to sit on a rock, listen to the surf, and feel the ocean breeze in their face once in awhile."
cambriadays.com