I am about to install a gas forced air furnace in my home. I tore the old one out and I’m ready to go. I have the tools and the knowledge from working with plumbers and friend over the years. Only problem is that I can’t find anywhere to simply walk in and buy a Trane furnace. The only place that has furnaces fro sale to the public is Home Depot, and the ones they have are pretty cheesy ones. These days you can’t even walk in and buy a filter for your fuel oil tank line. I am stumped. Any ideas? I’ll settle for a Lennox as well.
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There is a place or two here in Ohio.
Hi Tom,
Can you ask one of the guys you worked with before to buy it for you for a small gratuity? Most wholesalers won't sell to you unless you are a HVAC contractor and have proof of insurance. They don't want the liability if you blow up your house or off the family with carbon monoxide if you hook up the venting wrong. Trane only uses their own dealers.
Mike
Lennox only sells to their dealers. And I believe the same is true for Trane. However, Trane is also sold as the American Standard brand and the furnace is identical. You might be able to buy an American Standard brand easier than Trane.
Good luck. Both Trane and Lennox are very good products.
I am about to install a gas forced air furnace in my home. .... I have the tools and the knowledge from working with plumbers and friend over the years.
Ahh, am I missing something here? What the heck do plumbers have to do with furnaces?
________________________________________________
"I may have said the same thing before... But my explanation, I am sure, will always be different." Oscar Wilde
Plumbers, at least the ones certified in it, do gas lines. :-)
I've done that dance an an outside consumer. Outsider is a non franchised general Joe who knows how to dope a pipe and do the job.
Frankly I gave up (mostly as the duct work I would have to do was overwhelming in the scope of my projects). This is a protectionist racket that only provides furnaces to installers who have completed the training prescribed by the individual furnace manufacturers. W/O a franchise no furnace.
What to do if you feel like giving the manufacturers a NY salute? Two approaches work.
First, go to many supply houses and find the Old guy and sell him on your abilities. Generally the smaller houses will crack the rules and sell to you.
Second, Give up on the Brand names. Lennox, Luxaire, York, are all pretty heavily regulated and it will be harder to find a supplier. Instead do this: Go to E-Bay and do an advanced search Furnace (-glass) (Furnace glass is some cruddy necklace material that infects that search) You will find some individuals and some brokers who will sell to you.
There was a post several years ago from a guy who was going to buy a dented furnace at a reduced price. He got his #### laughed at good & a lot of grief over the idea from a bunch of the "Regulars" who thought he was an AH for trying to save a buck.
Seemed like a reasonable idea to me, after all, how many times do you show your houseguests your furnace? Is a dent going to matter much if it still works? The dent in the door of my truck (it's a FORD) pisses me off, but a dent in a furnace?
http://www.interstateusa.com/index.htm
http://www.furnace-airconditioner.com/
http://shop.store.yahoo.chttp://www.furnace-airconditioner.com/
There was a post several years ago from a guy who was going to buy a dented furnace at a reduced price. He got his #### laughed at good & a lot of grief over the idea from a bunch of the "Regulars" who thought he was an AH for trying to save a buck.
Seemed like a reasonable idea to me, after all, how many times do you show your houseguests your furnace? Is a dent going to matter much if it still works?
I don't remember that, but I doubt if the concern was with a dent.
Improperly installed furnaces can kill people. It's hard enough to find a heating contractor who can do it right, and this guy wants to DIY based on what he's learned from plumbers?
________________________________________________
"I may have said the same thing before... But my explanation, I am sure, will always be different." Oscar Wilde
Dear Bob,
When I said I learned from plumbers I worked for, I meant it. I have installed and helped to install many furnaces, boilers, central air systems, and the like. I worked for a long time with these guys, and some of them, though they be "lowly plumbers", knew a hell of a lot more than some of the factory-trained installer drones that show up to put a new unit in. I assure you I am not an idiot. I know when not to venture into the unknown. I don't pull my own teeth and I don't do any surgery on myself more complicated than a few well-placed sutures to save the 10 hour marathon at the emergency room. I don't work on auto transmissions because I am too lazy to take the time and learn how. I don't ask to fly the commercial jet I ride on, even though I am trained sufficiently to do so. I know quite well that furnaces can kill. I have a carbon monoxide detector on each floor, as I have personally lost a relative to CO poisoning.
Simply put, I hate to pay someone to do something I am quite capable of doing just to insure that someone has a job.
Respectfully yours,
"This guy"
Tom,
How do you adjust the flame on a furnace?________________________________________________
"I may have said the same thing before... But my explanation, I am sure, will always be different." Oscar Wilde
Oxygen mixture on the inlet tubes. each needs to burn blue not orange. There is a half A adjustment that is made by turning a incoming air damper. I can't believe there is much adjustment as the guy who installed mine didn't seem the brightest bulb in the box.
PS Someone suggested plumbers are dumb? I don't think so. I photocopied the Plumbing code for Wisconsin and found it one of the most confusing documents I have ever read. And I am the guy that reads his insurance policies stem to stern. That is a tough job to do properly. Thankfully / regrettably plumbing is required in the US by the EPA to be done on all original installations. I guess retrofits and additions are open to local codes.Who'd I tick off today?
Oxygen mixture on the inlet tubes. each needs to burn blue not orange.
Nope. Can't tell anything about a flame by looking at it, except that it's there. And you don't use the shutters on natural gas burners.________________________________________________
"I may have said the same thing before... But my explanation, I am sure, will always be different." Oscar Wilde
Adjust the flame??? I just turn it from simmer to high.Ditch
Well obviously you know more but aren't saying much. Vent your spleen and increase the knowledge base. OR maybe it is a RIDDLE?
Booch, Bob's an Inspector. He knows it all. Joe H
Well obviously you know more but aren't saying much. Vent your spleen and increase the knowledge base. OR maybe it is a RIDDLE?
And no I don't claim to know it all. But I do know a lot about conmbustion.
But, there is a guy who says he knows enough to install his own gas furnace based on his work with plumbers. Claims they're experts on installing furnaces.
It could be. Different parts of the country have different practices.
So, I asked a pretty basic question to see how knowledgeable he is. Now, it's a trick question because this is a basic question for which the answer has changed in the last 10 years.
This a variation of "put of or shut up." Lets see if he and his plumber mentors know the answer.
I think it's an important issue because I see a frightening number of incorrectly installed furnaces with potentially deadly problems.
________________________________________________
"I may have said the same thing before... But my explanation, I am sure, will always be different." Oscar Wilde
Around here it is "Plumbing & Heating" contractors. One would assume that they know what they are doing. But, assumption and belief are the crux of quality problems. Anyone own a Ford Pinto? I believe that sharing of knowledge is the format of this forum. In business, politics, and raising children (the list goes on) trusting but verifying is the rule of the road.
Assume that we keep the tricks of heating systems as the professionals black art that it is being held. How can we ever verify that the professional contractors are doing their job? Do we leave it to the inspectors of the nation? That seems like a tall order. Beyond footings & forms, framing, wiring, insulation, and creature features (window's in each room etc.) we now want all inspectors to check for proper combustion efficiency of a furnace?
I passed on the opportunity to install my new construction furnace. Time to complete the task was my reasoning. Now if I hadn't passed and had decided to do the job I'd have RTFI, quizzed all friends that have different talents, and applied the chemistry & physics laws that I learned in college then I'd have taken my best shot. I guess I'd like to have had the opportunity to learn from the wizened sources in the forum.
Surely, Darwin's observations will winnow out the less astute and procrastination & worry will further thin the ranks that would install their own. I feel it is our responsibility as Americans to increase the knowledge of our population. Through knowledge comes power and responsibility. We are over 21 and any adult knows you are responsible for your actions. To willfully withhold information is immoral and irresponsible. By spreading only worry we foster bravado and foment revolt.
You are responsible for your own actions. Get used to it.
Odd
anyone can install car parts, or boat parts or tractor parts or dishwasher parts and the people who install those don't seem to get upset that DIY people do it.
But talk HVAC and those people in that trade really get hostile.
Even changing a fan motor is considered something "dangerous'" and should only be done by a "dealer'
yet I bet when their boat breaks they fix it themselves and work on their own cars even dangerous stuff like the steering, etc
Can painting a wall be far off? Lead you know!
Let's all be Renaissance men (women as is appropriate)
But he didn't saying plumbing and heating guys, he just mentioned plumbers.
I'm NOT saying don't do it. All I'm saying is make sure you have sufficient information to do it correctly and safely, and I asked if plumbners are the right source for that information.
You are responsible for your own actions. Get used to it.
Excellent point. Now: to whom is one responsible? What if hew sells his house and he screwed up the installation? Is he responsible to the buyers? To their heirs?
If I were a furnace manufacturer, knowing how easily installation can be screwed up and how dangerous a screwed up installation can be, I wouldn't sell to DIY's either. Simple concept called risk management.
Even if I would win the law suits, I wouldn't want to pay the price of winning them.
________________________________________________
"I may have said the same thing before... But my explanation, I am sure, will always be different." Oscar Wilde
Edited 12/3/2002 11:06:04 AM ET by Bob Walker
"Now: to whom is one responsible? What if hew sells his house and he screwed up the installation? Is he responsible to the buyers? To their heirs?"
You bet. If you dump perclorethelene in the soil behind your drycleaners the liability follows you and your company beyond your death. Buried oiltanks, and leaky basements are the same for homeowners. I can't see why a furnace installation wouldn't follow the installer DIY'er.
If I were a furnace manufacturer, knowing how easily installation can be screwed up and how dangerous a screwed up installation can be, I wouldn't sell to DIY's either. Simple concept called risk management.
Yep that is why that 150 dollar pile of metal costs $1500 when built as a furnace It is a check to the ballance of substandard goods & substandard work. Now let's not be paralyzed with fear. Lets learn how to do it right.
Risk is inherant to any activity. When I let my 11,15 & 17 year old sons worked on the 16/12 pitch with me I know they could slip and fall to their death. I safeguard, instruct, and illustrate the entire project. It doesn't mean I don't love them and don't care, I just believe there are greater principles involved in learning, self reliance, and confidence.
So if the furnace is so delicate a tool that it needs be tweaked to run safely, then you shouldn't be in the business of making them or you should be driven out of business for making them. You don't see any tractors being made with belt driven implements. They were unsafe and the market drowned. Reputation probably put those out of business as that was long ago. Lawsuits are faster, theoretically less people die.
So if the furnace is so delicate a tool that it needs be tweaked to run safely, then you shouldn't be in the business of making them or you should be driven out of business for making them.
Have you heard of maintenance? Can you name one manufacturered tool of more complexity than a hammer that doesn't require maintenance or proper set up?
One of the dangers with furnaces and other combustion appliances is that one of their principle dangers is carbon monoxide, which is undectable by the senses. People have a tendency to ignore dangers they can't see, touch or smell.________________________________________________
"I may have said the same thing before... But my explanation, I am sure, will always be different." Oscar Wilde
Have you heard of maintenance? Can you name one manufacturered tool of more complexity than a hammer that doesn't require maintenance or proper set up?
Sure maintenance is required on everything. How do we know it is done right? Belief? I'll save that for another house. As for this home I check the work and do it myself as time permits. Till they pry my screwdriver from my cold dead hand.
(how's that for a free shot!)
Fact and truth lift all boats, including the furnace.
An HVAC guy dumped me into a mess early in my home building project.
I wanted wirsbo but they too won't sell to non dealers or DIY's. Fair enough, I'm on job sites every day of the week and I found a friendly guy who promised to buy and help me install.. price was very fair and I agreed. Three days before the floor was poured he disappeared. (later found out he took a job out of state) I was fighting freeze up and I couldn't reschedule the pour and expect a decent chance of not ruining the concrete from freezing.
I went to a supply house and begged them to sell me the tube. I figured I could install it as well as the next guy since I'd noted how it was done and watched/talked to enough guys that I felt I understood..
Pour went fine and I forgot about it untill this fall when I started to look for someone to help me connect it and get it working.. I expected to pay going rates. However, everyone that I spoke to said that they wouldn't touch a system where the tube was laid by a DIY.
I offered to let them pressure test it themselves, offered to accept responsibility for the tubing myself, and no-one wanted to touch it..
I bet I've spoken to ten contractors and twenty installers and so-far no-one will consider it...
I don't know how to buy the manifold without them nor do I feel comfortable setting it up myself...
DEATH TO ALL DO-IT_YOURSELFER's must be the Hvac's moto....
Edited 12/3/2002 3:29:17 PM ET by frenchy
I think the HVAC's look at DIY'ers as scabs. (That ought to make some friends.)
As for the manifold. It isn't anything more than a valve train. I've done more complex control on Cranes and portable Ice rinks. Can you get parts? I assume you are using zone controls. Can't hurt talking about it.
Booch, 10 minutes on any highway in the Los Angeles area will prove Darwin wrong. The morons are breeding faster than natural selection can select. Joe H
You stick your $2000.00 Baccharat combustion analizer in the flue and read the print out. Nobody does that unless it is a big comercial boiler or unit heater. I spent two years getting a HVAC certificate at a junior collage and worked for a year as a commercial service tech and I can't buy a Trane furnace. It is definitely restraint of trade. I was told I need a $500,000 insurance policy and a D.B.A. as a heating and AC contractor to get a cash account at a wholesaler. Safety my butt.
I'm with you.I've installed several 2300 volt drive motors,and even worked on a 138,000 volt across the line motor(we had to call Ohio Edison for permission to start it),but the prick supply house won't sell me a blower motor for my furnace.It's OK for everybody and their sister to walk into an electrical supply house(or Lowe's or HD) and buy the stuff to change the electrical service on their house,but "NO FURNACE FOR YOU" from the HVAC Nazis.
do some web searches
for hvac online etc
there are other places too
I can not remember them
Tom,
I am in the HVAC business, the engineering and design side, and know most of the installers and all of the suppliers in my area. It is difficult for me to get someone to sell me equipment directly. Problems are that most suppliers are not set up to do retail sales, the "network" in place and the unions (biggest problem). I have found that if the easiest route is to find a reasonable installer and tell them what you want. Smaller shops, especially non-union, are sometimes willing to buy you a furnace. Offer to pay them a reasonable amount for handling, receiving, etc., and they should be willing to help you out.
I would try to fing someone that can sell you a HEIL.
Tim,
Total change of subject, but maybe you have an idea. A home inspector had a situation with a gas water heater where a sheet metal "collar" had been installed around the flue bonnet legs - see attached picture. He had a low CO reading down the flue by the baffle, and 0.02 wc" draft.
He took the collar off. The draft remained unchanged at 0.02wc" , but the CO shot to >2000 ppm!
Any ideas of why/how?
Bob________________________________________________
"I may have said the same thing before... But my explanation, I am sure, will always be different." Oscar Wilde
I think the original installer was short on draft and found a 'field expedient" draft inducer. What you have there is essentially an nozzle which induced additional flow thru the combustion chamber. When he took it out more flow was thru the perimeter of the draft hood and less thru the combustion chamber, thus less oxygen, therefore more CO.
Bob, I assume most other states are have similar licensing requirements as we do in KY. HVAC, plumbing and electrical trades require a masters certication to pull a permit for new installation or replacements/ upgrades or changes.
Quite simply put fellas, it is a public safety issue and is written as local ordances, code or regulation. It is not an trade, supplier, or manufacture issue. There is no great conspiracey here. It all come down to liabilty. Most states do not recognize DIY experience or years of ojt as meeting the requirements to obtain a masters license in any of these trade. You have to take and pass state certfied test at each level to the masters level. Additionally you generally must have worked under a masters license for a certin number of hours(read years) to even be eligable to take the test.
The DIYers that want to take a short cut through the state mandated regulations are themselves a public safety issue. They risk not only thier familys' safety, but also that of their neighbors and community.
Enough of my rant> I agree with you Bob.
Dave
Some localities (including Oberlin, OH where I am) allow the homeowner to pull a permit to do the work himself, but require adherence to code and inspections. In my area Home Depots sell furnaces to the DIY, don't know how good they are.
Previous areas I lived in did not allow homeowners to perform repairs in the area of plumbing, heating, or electrical. The result was that the homeowners did the work anyway behind closed doors (why else would HD be carrying the supplies) without the benefit of inspections. I have always felt that municipalities would be better off allowing them to do the work, but inspecting it. I was in a hardware store one time and overheard a conversation where a young couple were telling the clerk that the circuit breaker kept tripping for their refrigerator. His recommendation was that they replace the breaker with a higher amperage. I talked to the manager, and he didn't seem concerned. (By the way this was in one of the cities that doesn't allow homeowners to do electrical work).
About 15 years ago the ordinance in our city and county was changed, because of two incidences. In one a contractor, with no plumbing license, replaced several gas water heaters in an apartment complex. He killed a single parent family of four because of improper flue installations that resulted in CO poisoning. The second incident involved a homeowner installed furnace. Fortunately for him he lived through the explosion because he was asleep on the living couch.It blew him and the couch through the front window, and he walked away with only minor injuries. Two children in the house next door had more severe injuries because the glass in thier bedroom windows blew in on them.
Water heaters are still sold by local hardware and DYI stores, but a form is filled out and turned in to the local code enforcement department for follow up inspection. As far as I know HVAC systems are not sold to anyone in that county without a masters license.
The county I currently live in allows a home owner to pull permits for just about anything they want to do. Passing the inspection is another thing.
I have worked as a remodeling contractor for almost 30 years. I have also been a maintenace technician (journeyman) for almost 18 years. I have worked under a master HVAC licensed individual and a master electrician. I am not a journeyman in either trade, and will not hire myself out as such in my remodeling business. I have had ample opportunity to take both the journeymans test for electrician and HVAC, but have chosen not to do so. Because I have the experience, but have not proven to the county and state trhough testing, I can not do either type of work. I accept this, and have no quarel with the limits it imposes on me.
I find it ironic that guys who work in the construction trades for a few years think that ojt is everything, and they should be waviered from meeting the minnium qualification to work in thier area. If they are that qualified--take the test and prove it! If not, stop wineing and pay for the service. The cost is minimal when compared to the risk to one family and communities safety.
Dave
I agree with you that anyone being hired to do work (the contractor you describe) needs to be licensed to do the work. The second case where the homeowner installed the water heater just supports my premise that homeowners should be allowed to do the work with permit and inspection. You have to admit that even licensed individuals do things wrong, and that's why we have inspections.
The original thread had to do with a homeowner that wanted to install his own furnace, had the experience that he felt was adequate, and was wanting to obtain the equipment. It certainly doesn't make sense that he would or should become licensed for that one job, and I disagree with the premise that only licensed persons are qualified to do some jobs.
Experienc does not always equate to competance. He may well be the best installer in his area, and smart enough to know his limits. Lets say he gets and installs his own unit correctly and saftely. Save many $$$ to boot. Along comes a relative or friend that wants to do the same thing...he helps and for whatever reason something goes wrong. Who is liable for the damage, injury or death that could result. We all pay for that one in so many ways that the list is to long to list.
You are a doctor or at least a med. student. Hey it was only a small wound, and I have sticthed up cows, horses and dogs with worse wounds...., I had no idea that my procedure would cause future harm! That kind of logic is unacceptable. Do no more than you are qualified, certified, or licensed to do. That is the way our society survives. Otherwise we would still have shamuns and such. Apply your logic to your profession and see what its impact would be on your community.
HVAC work is not rocket science, I'll grant you that, but it is a long way from being so simple anyone can do it. That is exactly why it is regulated and limited to people that prove a minnimum degree of competance through testing and continueing education.
Dave
I can't resist responding one more time.
As far as my profession, I am a doctor and not a student. You use the analogy of someone suturing their own wound, but I would choose a different analogy. When you have a cold, do you go to the doctor, or do you go to the drugstore and try over the counter remedies? That's called self diagnosis and treatment. By allowing you to do that and allowing drug companies to sell over the counter drugs to you is not saying in any way that you are qualified to practice medicine, but that within any profession there are things that can be done with laymen. You go to a city like Ft. Worth, TX where I am originally from, and you can't replace a wall outlet without an electrician's license. In my opinion, that is like saying you can't take an aspirin for headache because that is practicing medicine without a license. Yes, there is some risk when you replace an outlet, but you don't have to learn the whole profession to do this one thing competently. I am just saying that I would rather allow people to do these things and properly supervise them (ie inspections) than to forbid them to do it and drive them behind closed doors.
Local codes are really funny.
When we moved into our house, our first water bill was a BIG shock. Traced things out, and we were leaking 75 gal/hr into the ground somewhere between the meter and the house.
I have a friend who owns a plumbing buisiness, so I wanted to hire him to replace the water line. He knows me real well, and so he told me that I should just rent a backhoe and do it myself. He would have to get a hookup permit, a excavation permit, and hire a licensed backhoe operator at $60/hr.. But, it was on my property, so I could do all the work w/o any permits, saving $65 and do the backhoe work myself. I bought the materials from him and did it myself, the city didn't even want to inspect it, and didn't.
Many people around here end up putting in their own in house gas lines because of similar rules. At least the gas company will inspect the lines when you're done, but they won't install them.
Bob,
My ideas of what is going on with the draft hood is this:
The pressure in the vent is the same with or without the collar because it is a matter of gravity, flow and friction. If it were possible to measure all the variables involved you would find a greater mass flow through the vent with the hood inplace, the gases would be cooler and denser providing a greater driving force than the flue gases alone. With the greater flow and the greater density, the frction losses go up and you see close to about the same pressure. The hood induces ambient air to enter the flue with the proucts of combustion and excess air, diluting the concentrations and increasing the density of the gases. This is not exactly my area of expertise, but I think this is what is happening.
Tim