Ok, let me have it.
I started working with a new client that wants new windows like the ones I installed for his neighbor. So, good prospect.
And it’s in the middle of all this SCA stuff, AND I’m hungry.
Initial visit, wifes due to spit out a baby in about 2 weeks. I’m thinking red flag. We do the thing, portfolio, window books, walk around.
I tell them to give me a week or so and I’ll come up with a ball park. This is 17 Marvin Tilt Pacs plus a new angle bay, so I’m not gonna guess on the spot.
I decide that I will keep my work to a bare minimum until I am able to receive a payment from them to create a detailed proposal.
I took vague measurements while I was there, enough to get numbers of some relevancy from my dealer.
I mail to them a ball park number, detailed with labor but no specs on the windows, letting them know that I understand that they are pre-occupied at the moment, and when they have time, to look things over. I let them know at that point that if they are interested in having the work done at that amount, then I will be glad to supply them with a detailed bid after spending some time doing actual measurements and accepting from them a payment for my services.
At this point I’m up to at least three hours and ……..
I call, leave message once or twice, I know they’re having a kid so I back off a bit. I let them know that I hope all is well………….
I send them a quick note just to make sure they got the call. I am really leary about seeming to be pushy at this time in their lives.
I get the call, number is good, can we get together and go to the window store and see the windows? No problem. I figure by the end of this visit I would be walking with a check and have them on my calendar.
H/O asks if he can bring along his neighbor……………I did not understand or inquire effectively enough to understand why………so I get to his house, meet the nieghbor, pile into the car and head out to the window store.
We get to the store and the neighbor takes command of the whole presentation. Out of politeness I play along for a while, but soon grow tired as I feel that my needs and my clients needs are NOT being addressed. I’m not here to listen to his tales of woe about his Pella windows. It’s MY time right??
As politely as I can, I step in and take back the reigns. H/O looks a bit uncomfortable, neighbor is stunned but shuts up. We wrap up our business and drive back making plaeasant chit chat along the way.
Back to the house, neighbor spends alittle more time, I’m being very respectful and polite, he says good bye, we shake hands and he goes.
I spend a bit more time with the H/O who now seems confused and a bit put off. I think between the neighbor and the child birth, he just has no idea where he is in the process. Says he needs more time to think about it and would like to bring his wife to the store. I apologize for possibly offending his neighbor, which he states he thinks I did. I explain calmly and politely that he while it is good for him to seek information, that WE need to build a relationship and a trust in order for his project to be a success.
I then find out what I had allready a feeling about. His neighbor is a RETIRED ENGINEER!! And a proffesional meddler!
I arrange to get them in to my other clients home to see the windows up close and he says great, I’ll see you next w/e.
By this time I have a bad feeling. I put together some more info for him including schematics of windows with their parts labeled for indentification, copies of the pages from the Marvin catalogue we looked at and which I left with them.
I called this am to confirm and he delivers the “we need time to think about it blah blah…….
I let him know that I am here for his needs and let it go at that.
While I am quite disappointed, I’m not gonna let me beat me up to bad. After the last visit I was fumed about the whole neighbor thing, been there done that with the meddling BIL or retired neighbor. Who needs that. How dare he invite someone along to use my time with him!
So I am thinking this wasn’t a good fit, although it seemed like it had good possibilities. The timing was way off at the start withthe pregnancy thing.
Let’s hear it gang. What did I miss, do wrong, what would you have done? I want to learn from this.
Eric
Replies
"As politely as I can, I step in and take back the reigns. H/O looks a bit uncomfortable, neighbor is stunned but shuts up. We wrap up our business and drive back making plaeasant chit chat along the way."
As you describe it that seems "a turning point".
Now we don't have a video tape to look at so I have no idea how "polite" you where. In much different circumstance I what I have found works it to not "step in" but rather slow, but continously redirect back to the topic at hand.
"Let me show you this feature in the window."
"Here is why I use this brand."
And after they neighbor makes some comments about the problems that he had with his Pella, then "Look how these windows differ, you won't have that problem with these."
Instead of trying to straight out a warped deck board after it is fastened down straight it at each joist as you go along and nail it off.
------- STOP THE PRESSES ------------
"a new client that wants new windows like the ones I installed for his neighbor"
Is this the same neighbor??????
----------------------------------------
The other thing that I see is that you are pushing, pushing, pushing.
Now under normal circumstances that is probably reasonable business interaction.
But as I read this I get the impression that the guy is stressed out to the gills.
In hindsite about 2 pushes earlier you should have sent a little note mentioning the pending birth and telling him that you will get back to him in (3 months?). Now I have not had children, but if you have and know say something like "after the baby sleeps through the night" with the commnet that you have been there done that.
Good point in the first paragraph.........I was quite annoyed at that point. This guys wasting my air explaining to my client how bad his Pellas are!! I was abrupt, but polite and respectful. "I'm sorry to interrupt you and I hope you don't become offended, but I came here for a specific reason this morning to look at and discuss the Marvin Tilt Pac replacement windows with Mr. Hartman." "I feel as though his needs and my interaction with his needs is being pushed aside at the moment, and I need to direct this meeting to a place where his needs and mine are being addressed."
NO, NOT the neighbor. Did the Marvins for some folks up the street a way! I don't 'do' Pellas.
About the push, two voicemails and one letter over the course of two to three weeks isn't pushy in my book, and he wanted to get this going before things got busy for me and I wouldn't be able to get to him before the fall. And I DID mix in my concern for everyone. He didn't want 3 months, he wanted now, at least that's what he told me.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
Yeah, it was a pretty abrupt delivery. And with his current level of stress that probably tanked it. But.....been there.
My opinion is you were too harsh. With this guy doing the stress deal he was probably using his know-it-all neighbor for a crutch to try and deal with information he wasn't able to handle at this time. You knocked the crutch out.
This guy should have waited to shop. His neighbor who no doubt was dying to be important again took the oppurtunity to take control. While they weren't on the same team, you were not on either team.
All that said I probably would have done the same thing in the same way and had second thoughts later. I have a low tolerance for my time being wasted and someone who is not even in the equasion opening their mouth. So, bad match. You would have fought the neighbor or the post-partem-blues new mom through the whole deal. Probably were fortunate. DanT
You would have fought the neighbor
Exactly what I took away from it.............him needing to feel important again at MY expense.
The kids were good though I think.
They may come back, who knows?
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
>I'm sorry to interrupt you and I hope you don't become offended, but I came here for a specific reason this morning to look at and discuss the Marvin Tilt Pac replacement windows with Mr. Hartman.A different way to make the same point is, "You make a great point about the Pella's, and that's the very same reason I'm recommending the Marvin to him. Do you also think that he'll have a better experience with them than he would with Pella's? I've heard too many stories like yours....he's lucky to benefit from your experience."Less abrupt. Gives him the props he seemed to need. Kept terms good with the prospective client.Remember, the other guy has the ear of the prospective client day after day as neighbors, and could easily sour your relationship with that client, and probably did. Better to get him as a comrade than an adversary, if those are the only two choices.
Excellent..............I viewed him as an adversary instead of recruiting him as my salesman who lives next door to the h/o!
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
"I viewed him as an adversary instead of recruiting him as my salesman who lives next door to the h/o!"BINGO!The engineer is bad mouthing Pellas. I would have agreed with him (aligning him from there on as my counterpart and salesman) since I sell Marvins. I would then have gone on to explain to the engineer, while your customer was listening, the attributes Marvin has that Pella doesn't. The customer allowed the engineer to come along because he apparently respects the advice of the engineer. Therefore, it makes sense to validate what the engineer is saying, again, thereby making HIM your salesman.
The customer allowed the engineer to come along because he apparently respects the advice of the engineer. Therefore, it makes sense to validate what the engineer is saying, again, thereby making HIM your salesman.
I agree Sonny, but what do I do with this guy when he starts wandering into the yard everyday to criticize my work and then starts whispering in the h/o's ear at night? Someone here suggested that it was good riddance cause this guy was NOT gonna go away.
Should I have validated him later when he is spewing his cockamamy engineering analysis of my work methods as well?? This is what I need to head off.
I had a bad feeling about him, I knew the job was toast as soon as I got in the truck to leave.I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
I've read most of this thread, and have mixed feelings. I'm convinced that despite our best intentions, sometimes things just go wrong. And once they go wrong, they just seem to KEEP heading that way. Sounds like that may be the case with this job.The way you dealt with the neighbor was possibly a bit abrupt. Sounds like he's a jerk and deserved it from our perspective. But the HO sees it from HIS perspective. And he may really LIKE the neighbor. I wonder if you could have suddenly remembered an appointment, and come back later on the spur of the moment when they didn't have time to get the neighbor. But hindsight is always 20/20. Don't beat yourself up over it.
Some cause happiness wherever they go; others whenever they go [Oscar Wilde]
Get a fake cell phone that rings when you hit a secret button. Answer it and Say "Oh my God, I'll be right there" leave the neighbor and the client sitting there and hoping nothing is to seriously wrong.
Get a fake cell phone that rings when you hit a secret button. Answer it and Say "Oh my God, I'll be right there" leave the neighbor and the client sitting there and hoping nothing is to seriously wrong.
Did Buck put you up to that??
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
Maybe, I knew the idea wasn't original but it could've worked.
If you had spent the time to measure the exact window sizes and sill angles and give a lil better sales pitch the neighbor may never have entered the picture. Also if you had gotten right back with them he may not have been a factor, who knows if they asked his opinion right away or when one of them saw him out doing yard work a week later.
I agree with the folks who say make him a convert, sure he has a broad knowledge base and an exacting way of doing things being an engineer, but you certainly know more about your field than he does, it shouldnt be too hard to impress him. Once you convince him you know what you are doing the homeowners would probably have been happy. Actually I think engineers make pretty good customers, your not gunna have any misunderstandings with them. The thing is you have to be a little more open minded and make sure you and they agree exactly on whats being done, then do exactly that.
On the whole wasting time/charging for estimate thing I just dont see that working real well in the window business. Your gunna make x amount for the job, probably alot more than you would care to break down to an hourly wage for the customer. And like some others said people view it as just changing windows, not a real in depth project. So I would think once you travel there the only real waste of your time is not staying as long as it takes to do a proper job of giving them an estimate.
But hindsight is always 20/20. Don't beat yourself up over it.
Thanks Boss, I appreciate your input!. Living and learning!
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
Sometimes you can avoid all the extra hemming and hawing by giving a ball park on the first contact. " Well Mr. Jones you are talking 22 windows, by such and such a company, so you will be in the $$$ range. Is this something you would like to pursue?" Right away you can get a feel if the client had any concept of what the job could cost. There is a whole range of replacement windows, so if the Pella gave him sticker shock, you could offer an alternative. Of course you will do your job side manor and explain the differences, experiences, time frame , etc.
I used to knock myself out doing detailed bids for free. Before I sharpen the pencil now, I make sure they are serious and I'm the one doing the work. You can easily blow four hours on the first visit, getting there and shooting the breeze. That's plenty of good will as far as I'm concerned.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Your're right about the ball park on the first visit................
But guessing on 17 Marvin Tilt Pacs AND a 9' x 5' Marvin Anlge bay all 6 over 6 SDL with spacer bars??
I'm not touching a guess on that, and add into it replacing all the exterior window casings and drip caps in a stucco house.
I can look at a bath or kitchen and pretty much nail it on the head with in a range. If I was doing a lot of $185.00 vinyl repacement windows, off the cuff might work. Marvins are NOT $185.00 vinyl replacement window. that is a commodity industry.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
Eric,
I don't know if it's a blown deal or not, but I definitely wouldn't try to sell someone who's just about to have a kid. Once they get thru that, you will still be the guy they started talking to, the guy who gave them some paperwork to consider, and if they want windows they will probably call you back.
As far as the neighbor goes, I would have said no, he shouldn't come to the store, or at least ask why he needs to come. That's an unusual situation and I could have easily stepped in it too. My 'polite' and your 'polite' are probably about the same.
As far as how much time you spent, you went too far, in my ever-evolving opinion. My M.O. now is to give people a ballpark as quickly as I can... get a number in front of them, in writing... while doing everything I can to let them know what kind of contractor I am. Show the portfolio, discuss the technical aspects of the project, give them some references, etc. If they like me and the number isn't too startling, I'll get a call back. If they really want to go with someone who works for $20/hour cash and has a dime bag of weed in their tool belt, I've wasted as little time as possible. So, the trip to the window store, without a signed contract... not time I would spend.
I spend time thinking about and observing my own habits about buying and hiring. I almost always know who I want to hire before I see the number. I almost always know my source before they throw the price out there. It has to do with service, responsiveness, image, professionalism... price is down there at #3 or 4 for me.
Thanks David
All good points.
As far as how much time you spent, you went too far, in my ever-evolving opinion. My M.O. now is to give people a ballpark as quickly as I can... get a number in front of them, in writing.
Given that there was no way I was gonna ball park this (read above posts) when do you suggest I should have gotten a contract?
I f'd up by mailing the proposal, but that goes back to not wanting to disturb them while nesting (I told them as much in the proposal), and that goes back to the red flag when I saw her belly!! I was a little confused as to why they would want to get involved with me at a time like that!
Should I have (delicately) adressed my concern and offend them from the get go??
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
With a window job like that I would (for free) I would measure each opening quickly, send the list to my Marvin guy, estimate the installation labor, and then quote a price based on that. I would make sure to get a quote on custom window sizes so that I have the custom-sizing upcharge already in there (don't let your salesman quote the nearest stock size). I would have to invest 4-6 hours in doing that, assuming the job was local. Let's say 2-3 hours r/t to do the measure and a brief meeting where I show the book, 2-3 hours to fax off the list, get it back, and type up the quote on my pre-formatted 'Scope of Work and Preliminary Proposal' doc. The price I would generate would be one I could stick with IF there were no surprises.
Once I have that, I would visit again and discuss the price and scope with them. I would ask for a commitment from them, and if I got one, I would go back and work up the contract. Or, I could be like Mike and have the contract ready for meeting 2. Maybe that's better for a small job, and for a short contract that won't intimidate them.
So, to answer your question, I would have to invest 4-6 hours to get to where I am suggesting you get to, without going to the window store. My personal approach is that I am not going to the window store unless you are my paying customer.
Here's a similar scenario that I'm on now. Simple bath remodel. There are at least three unknowns that may become important. (1) is the floor stiff enough for tile, (2) are the existing drains and vents easy to tie into without reworking the stack, (3) can I get circuits into the panel without opening walls. I based my price proposal on NOT having to do those things. I stated so in my proposal. I did not do any crawling when I went to check out the job, just a quick lookaround and a discussion with the owners. I will be back there tomorrow to lay out the proposal, and I want them to either hire me or not hire me tomorrow. I will not go to the trouble to check out all the details like 1-2-3 above unless I'm hired.
I know there's tons of discussion here about not even going this far before being hired. No way that works for me. People might buy that if I become God-among-contractors around here, but I doubt that more than 10% of guys are in that role, if that. No way you're going to get paid for an SCA to detail a window replacement, unless you're so established and sought after that you can command that. I try to get paid a bit from each job for the sales time my business takes. So far it's not too easy and I basically have to throw in some of that time for free as the price of having my own show.
Getting lengthy here, but these are my favorite topics... here's another scenario: nice lady, bought a 20 y/o home near us, horrible kitchen layout and the laundry room is in the wrong place (a view from the washing machine!). She needs help with simple wall layout and stuff like that and the house could have a groovy kitchen. She could get an archy in to design the thing but so far has no done so. If she wants me to do anything, I want to be paid. I can meet with her and lay out the remodel to the point where it's price-able. I can do that by the hour or by the job, doesn't matter to me, because either way I WILL be the guy who gets the job. Sort of an SCA-appropriate scenario... they are relatively rare.
Good points all, David.
I'm really trying to get away from working for nothing.
I did a bit of work for them that was free, and it is worth about as much to them as they paid for it at this point. $0
Thanks,
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
Stop kicking yourself! The job may not be dead at all, you won't know for a while. Lots of unexpected things happen in this business. They may call, after the baby starts sleeping. Or they may call later today.
For me, my feelings about a 'lost' prospect are directly proportional to how many other prospects I've got. I'm trying to market myself so that I get more calls, more pitches to swing at (or not swing at, as the case may be). I don't care if I foul off a few pitches as long as there are more coming and I get more swings. The window people are only important if they're your only call for a while. I'd say focus on stuff that gets you more calls, and let each individual call be less important.
David makes a couple very important points Eric, not least of which being (as has been mentioned previously) it may not be a dead issue. A while back I was here boohooing about my first really big job that I was sure was dead (the one we're waiting on the tile decision about) and many here counseled me that the fat lady hadn't sung yet... sure enough it came through in the end.
Thanks Paul,
I've moved the folder to the dead leads part of the cabinet, it's not six feet under.
I can pull it out under the 'right' circumstances.
Carry on............
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
I am still on your side on this one. Can't stand the neighbor issue either and if that caused a loss of sale I think you are better off without it.
But.........in the light of peace and tranquility for all I think I should offer another solution to apease the masses.
When Mr. Know it all started his BS about his Pella windows you should have stepped up and dropped him on the spot. Knocked him cold right there in the show room.
Then grabbed the client and dragged him to the car telling him to shut up because you are getting a sale one way or another. Because deep inside you know if you don't and come here you will endure mass humiliation and badgering about your lousy sales and people skills.
You get to his house. You drag him in and right to the room his wife is in. Shoot her immediately. Hand him his check book and your contract (that you have now marked up another 20% for putting you through this grief) and demand he sign it now. Now get the accurate measurements.
Now, calmly drive back to the show room and place the order. Feelin good about the sale you can brag about here? Then go ahead and give the neighbor with the sore jaw a ride home. Buy him an ice cream if you feel like it. Yeah, another great business day. DanT
Eric,
I'd like to make an observation that I don't think has been made. You were selling (I believe) a commodity. I bet the vast majority of people buy windows largely on price point for a given set of features. Now, if you are set up to do battle on price then maybe you can get the job but I don't think that's your thing. Along the same line, I question the applicability of the SCA concept (as I understand it) to the selling of a commodity.
The reason I bring this up is that in my previous business I learned early on not to ever get into a commodity. We didn't do cheap fast "one hour" lab work for instance. And so far, in this fledgling new business I've tried to avoid anything where I can't demonstrably add value to the price equation. For instance, I've got another job lined up I think where the HO had asked me about how my costs compared to other guys. I told her that as a guess I was probably somewhat more expensive than the median, but that I brought things to the table that they typically didn't such as meticulous design, spending the time to have a good sense of what their objectives and tastes were, etc. I also was willing to say that I understood that not everyone wanted to pay for those things and if that was the case here, no hard feelings. We talked about it a little (I tried to not have the conversation linger on that point) and as far as I know, we're a go.
As always, I hasten to point out that I'm a relative newcomer to this business and in a few months I could be out selling pencils ;)
Aren't you supposed to be picking out tile somewhere????
I understand what you are saying but.........and on the reason I'm gonna but is that I am not sure you are aware of what specifically a Marvin Tilt Pac is. As far as replacement windows go, this is 'high end' and they are expensive.
Thw windows for this job came in around $10-12,000.00. We're talking $5-7.00 windows here.Furthermore, and here is the reason for the SCA........to correctly order these windows, precise measuring must be done at the cost of a lot of time. And I do mean precise, no 1/4's or 1/2 we'll caulk it and determination of sill angles.
The ball park I gave them was stock sizes based loosely on qicky measurements I did inside of 15 minutes. If they want more, write a check and I'll come out and do specific measurements and spec a list of windows you now own and can shop if you want. I'm not doing all that measuring and specing for free.
Plastic windows I could not agree with you more. Save a million dolars on your heating bill or your money back!!!!!! I've done 'em, but only for existing clients.
The quicky guys wouldn't know what to do with these windows. There marvelous in my opinion.
Look them up. marvin.com
Now go get that tile will you!!
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
LOLLLLLL...It's the wife HO that's the delay Eric. She can't make up her mind on accent tiles She has swornnnnnnnn to me that she will this weekend. I explained that she's getting me in a bind but, you know.
I hear you on the specific window type but I guess I'm still suspicious that when it comes down the thinking is that they can get that same window from anyone that handles Marvin, so it boils down to what you're gonna charge to stuff em in the holes (in their mind). I also recognize that as has been said, the job may come through yet. Since it's one of my favorite marketing type issues I felt obliged to chime in. I hope you get the job after all's said and done...
All good points above. I stopped giving ball park numbers unless it's something we have done a million times before and I am sure of it. Too high and nobody wants to talk later, too low and no one forgets the first number even though it came with the title "ball park". DanT
It sounds like the neighbor thinks you are just smart enough to install the windows but not sharp enough to give them any technical advice. That coupled with the "engineer" neighbor with nothing better to do
Are'nt you getting a picture of the engineer standing over your shoulder while you do the install?
Are'nt you getting a picture of the engineer standing over your shoulder while you do the install?
You bet!!! I even went as far as to suggest to the h/o that this would be the case, that I've been there/done that , not looking to do it again, but I don't wanna hurt anyones feelings.
And that's the big reason why I cut his legs when I had the chance I think. I wasn't gonna make nice with him and set precedent for him to supervise my work for the entire project.
I feel for the next contractor.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
Not so specific as some advice here, but I'm reminded of a former boss' words. "Leave everyone with their dignity". Whatever the situation, whether a second baseman or a know-it-all, the art in the sale is figuring out how to turn the tide your way...and leave people with their dignity. Eat some crow, admit to their stunningly brilliant mind, compliment on their fine neighbor (even if he is a schmuck). It's frequently disarming and it keeps the door open so one can build trust and close the deal.
That being said, I've looked back at missed deals and seen just what you're seeing, the shoulda, woulda, coulda, why'd I miss that? Some times it flows and some times it dosen't.
PJ
Everything will be okay in the end. If it's not okay, it's not the end.
Thanks PJ, you're right like Cloud andd others............but then again, read the post above.
That's what has haunted me. The neighbor was trouble, I should not have allowed him to come along. Period.
He's a spoiler, and I think he knows it. he's a meddler, and his meddling with me ended with me putting my foot down. So now he can try again with someone else.
Maybe the h/o will finally catch on. The h/o is from Belgium, as in close to Germany, the home of all that wonderful engineering..........so, I'm thinking this is where the love affair has taken root.
I'm in love with my wife, that's it besides my kids and family. I'm not kissing the retired engineer with nothing to do all day but stick his nose in my business, meddle and cause problems.
He threw his 2 cents the h/o's way and undid every bit of trust and good information that I had laid out. That's not helping anything but his stupid selfish ego.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
I agree with PaulB regarding the SCA. You've done this work before, with the same windows and should already be familiar with the nuts and bolts of the job. All that remains is to get the actual price of the windows, any other associated costs and then plug in your labor rate and the time you already know it will take to do the detailed measurements.
It's not a complicated, multifaceted project and you should not come back with an additional or up front charge just to complete the paperwork. Your first price should be your only price, barring any hidden, unforeseen glitches, which would be covered by the wording of your contract. You pop out an old window and find the framing eaten up with termites or extreme water damage, for example.
You've also received good advice about interpersonal relations. You had no previous dealings with this customer and no idea of the relationship between the customer and his "meddling" neighbor. I think you stepped in it and may have to chalk this job up to experience gained.
I've had the foot in mouth disease at times and a couple of times it seems that to open my mouth was just an opportunity to change to the other foot.
Now leave these people alone but don't forget to send a nice card when the baby arrives.
It's not a complicated, multifaceted project and you should not come back with an additional or up front charge just to complete the paperwork
Ordering Marvin Tilt Pacs CORRECTLY, is a time consuming tedious process, and the product line is full of options. This job would have entailed a good 2-3 hours of measuring and specing to get the order right. That is why I did rough measurements and got a quote for those windows and offered to come back and do the REAL measuring for a fee. I'm not gonna give away a spec sheet. It goes completely against what we are learning here.
As part of that fee, I offered also to thoruoghly inspect each window to determin the soundness of the window frame, an issue the h/o was concerned about.
SO, I gave them a ball park within a week for something that was undeterminable on the spot, and offered them a detailed analysis of the rest of the project for a fee.
Thanks for the rest re the personal relationship thing.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
"I mail to them a ball park number"
There's your first and biggest mistake. Thot we covered this all before with U arguing with Mike that mailing stuff was ok?
Anyways ... unless the mailman is spending time selling you to the potential customers as the expert ... why they might just start asking retired engineer neighbors for professional advice!
You hand deliver it .... making sure both decision makers are present ... and then U sell yourself.
now if I was caught with the ... "we wanna bring the neighbor" ... I probably woulda done the same. Caught off guard ... just agreed ... then woulda had my fill if his "expertise" and told them all I was there for a reason. Then promptly lost the sale too.
But hopefully I woulda answered all their concerns when I HAND DELIVERED AND EXPLAINED THEIR PROPOSAL in the first place.
but hey ... what does Mike know?
U can't sell if U ain't there.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
You hand deliver it .... making sure both decision makers are present ... and then U sell yourself.
Agreed Jeff............maybe you missed the part where I ststed that she was about to pop out a kid. Out of respect I mailed it. She was due in less than two weeks when I made my initial contact. It just did not make sense to try to make an appointment with them when she had one foot inside the delivery room.
To me, that was a red flag, when I walked inthe door I thought, oooohhhhh, how am I gonna deal with this???
Anyone have an answer for that??
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
she had one foot inside the delivery room. . . To me, that was a red flag, when I walked inthe door
Eric,
You, and everyone else,are too busy beating you up for losing a sale.
I think I'll take the shamans role and beat you up for not listening to you gut the first time. The universe helps people out of tuff situations whenever possible, so It did make you do nothing substantial until the client called you and insisted (IIRC).
When the Universe noticed that you still weren't listening, It sent the EFH along for the ride just to hit you over the head with a brick.
If you had somehow managed to ignore everything the Universe sent at you to stop you from doing this job. . .
You would have been in deep doo doo.
Next time listen to yourself the first time and don't waste time trying to sell yourself a bad situation.
SamT
Edited 4/17/2005 11:34 am ET by SamT
Nice Sam!
Feel like I'm reading Don Jaun giving Carlos another lesson after having pulled him in.............again!
Thanks,
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
OK. You expended some time and effort. Apparently without it amounting to much.
Worse case a dry hole.
A neighbor, the engineer, who will never call you. Probably wouldn't have anyway. A guy who has a new kid and who may not see daylight, emotionally and/or financially, for some time. Possibly not for 18 years. Perhaps they won't call either.
On the up side.
You got to practice your patter. The window store knows your still in circulation. You are older and more experienced.
More substantially the couple having the kid live in a home that could use windows. Those windows are not wine. They are unlikely to get better with age. Should they get their heads far enough above water to worry about windows they will be short of time. They have already covered the early game with you. Going with someone else they have to start at square one. Likely with the engineer in tow.
Funny thing about the engineer is that he is trying to do good. But mostly all he can do is root for the loosing team. You could have turned the tables by feeding back his objections to the one brand and ask which brand he would recommend. He, true to the know-it-all image, would have to answer or look stupid. Put up or shut up. His choice. Either way he is unlikely to be expediting the couple getting new windows. Of course this is water under the bridge.
Give this situation time to breath. Let them make the next move. If they don't call in a few weeks give them a call to congratulate them on the new arrival, hopefully nothing has gone amiss. Only give the slightest mention, if any, about windows. They know your name and the job is implicit in the contact.
Odds are that if and when the couple find the time and funds the couple will be calling you. Don't be surprised when they do. Sometimes things work out. You had a lot of things working against you but you gave it a shot. You learn something and they learn something. It could come back in your favor.
If not those less substantial, but not insignificant, benefits are still there. Remember even Babe Ruth didn't bat a thousand.
Eric,
It's all in the attitude,you did every thing you could not to get this job.
They called you but you decided,for them, having a baby coming wasn't a good time to call you.To me it's perfect ,babies need quite,warm comfortable rooms with no drafts and security. By God ,they need Marvin tilt packs and right away.
The neighbor wants to bad mouth Pellas,let him go all day long,why stop him,what're a control freak? You're selling Marvins not pellas.
As far as ball parks I either give them one on the spot, if I can, or they get the real price after I've come up with one in person at another meeting.If you knew Marvins cost ,what 5-7, say so and get out.
So you put them off about having a baby.
You insulted their favorite neighbor.
And pretty much said you didn't want to waste any time on them because they couldn't afford to put new windows in.
All in All not to bad a sales call? Vince Carbone
With all due respect Vince, I'm not sure what you have been reading, but than again I'm not a very good writer.
They called you but you decided,for them, having a baby coming wasn't a good time to call you.
I decided for me. They were concerned about dust and the child, and I pointed out that the Tilt Pacs were a good choice because demo is kept to a minimum.
They were due to have a kid in a couple of weeks, (their first) you have to admit a challenge lies ahead to close a sale to them anytime soon. What if (God forbid) there were complications, then what should I have done? I only ststed that because it was obvious to me that it was going to be a challenge to deal with the situation.
Had I known window costs I would have ballparked them, as a matter of fact they asked. Again, for the last time, Marvins are NOT easily ballparked, there a four or five grille options alone.
So you put them off about having a baby.
Not sure where you got that from.
You insulted their favorite neighbor.
Likely, but I'm not sure he was their favorite!
And pretty much said you didn't want to waste any time on them because they couldn't afford to put new windows in.
Not sure where you got that either, but thanks for the thoughts.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
Ok, I reread your first post. You asked what you did wrong,here's what I think.
You don't want to ball park,fine. They have concerns about the baby which you address. Why not tell them right there you can do a detailed proposal for x amount,they want you, go ahead and measure and do what you have to,they don't want to go for it,you walk.You waste less time because you're already there and no need to go farther if they don't want to pay for the bid.
If they go for paying for the bid great,you go home with a check and do the bid.
Going with them and the neighbor to see windows is a bit of a pain but so what, he's not bad mouthing you or Marvin windows, so get him on your side tell them some bad stories about pellas and go with the flow.
And who cares if the neighbor is around when you do the windows you're the expert and he's your friend now, right.
Some things are out of your control,when the baby is born, if there are complications,you work around it .Delay the start time ,how long does it take to get the windows,could be weeks and weeks.
But you have a signed contract and you've been paid for the bid, what's the problem.Vince Carbone
Thanks Vince, you make a lot of sense.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
I may have gone in completely different direction. Think about saying no to the shopping expedition in the first place with out the Proposal signed and some money down.
You aren't in the business of selling windows you are in the business of selling yourself. Get the customer commited to working with you first and foremost. Tell them with a signed proposal and a deposit and agreemment that the right windows for this job are gonna cost 500-700 plus the bay window and go from there. If they want pella fine. If they want great lakes fine. You offer your best belief that the Marvins are the right windows for the job, but whatever window they decide to go with it will be installed properly and warrantied against defects in installation.
Then when they sign the agreement sell them on the marvins if thats what you think will work best. Spend the time after you get the agreement to do the job. If they agree on a price point for the Materials you should be able to sell yourself. Faulty allegances to particular brands doesn't help you at all.
Of course I'm saying I may have because I may not have.
Tim
Edited 4/17/2005 8:32 am ET by TMO
I may have gone in completely different direction. Think about saying no to the shopping expedition in the first place with out the Proposal signed and some money down.
Bingo!!
Bring your wife and a check, leave the neighbor at home!!
The time to say something was then, and I knew it too. I should have politely declined.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
Defintely that was the right time but, It seems to be one hard decision. I've been able to get verbal commitments to jobs before shopping expeditions but I've never gotten an actual paycheck for offering to help plan.
Funny thing about the engineer is that he is trying to do good. But mostly all he can do is root for the loosing team. You could have turned the tables by feeding back his objections to the one brand and ask which brand he would recommend. He, true to the know-it-all image, would have to answer or look stupid. Put up or shut up. His choice. Either way he is unlikely to be expediting the couple getting new windows. Of course this is water under the bridge.
Interesting perspective 4 and much like what my gut was thinking the whole time.
I'm not sour or hurting over losing the prospect so much as I want to learn from it.
Good thoughts, thanks!
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
Eric,
I am curious. How much time did you spend selling to the wife vs. selling to the husband?
It sounds like you left the decision maker out of the loop.
I would have taken the tack of building the bond with her first.
Talk about the baby and when it is due. Ask how LaMaze is going. Tell her about your own kids. If this is their second or third, trade some midnight feeding stories. If it is their first reassure them that it will go alright.
........and ...... oh yeah. I guess we need to get you some new windows.
If you did sell/bond with the wife, IMO this is not a dead project yet, and the neighbor is irrelavent.
Bowz
I did all that nice cutey baby talk thing at our first meet. We all did hit it off. She's the one that finally called me (after her delivery) to tell me they'd like to have me do the work!
The second meeting, which is when we went to the store with the professor, the Mrs. stayed behind.
She's the one that should have come along, not the neighbor, and I should have insisted on it. Had it been that way and not the neighbor way, I'm sure that I would have stayed to measure and left with a deposit check for the order.
A bunch of unususal circumstance, I need to learn to think on my feet better. For years and years I would ALWAYS get the jobs I was looking at. People just wanted me as I always came very highly recommended.
I'm learning now that selling myself at $25.00 an hour was probably more of the reason why!
Eric
I owe you a couple of emails, been a bit distracted, but I want you to know I've been thinking about you.I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
I'm learning now that selling myself at $25.00 an hour was probably more of the reason why!
A real kick to the ego isn't it!!! LOL
Bowz