Saw this picture in the NYTimes (p. C.4) today (10/2) of some guys raising a wall. It looks like the studs are swinging freely, and there is no bottom plate. What’s up with this??
Discussion Forum
Discussion Forum
Up Next
Video Shorts
Featured Story
The electrical hookup is only one part of the equation; when installing a hot tub, there are a number of key requirements to keep in mind.
Featured Video
Highlights
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Fine Homebuilding Magazine
Fine Home Building
Follow
-
Fine Homebuilding
Dig into cutting-edge approaches and decades of proven solutions with total access to our experts and tradespeople.
Start Free Trial Now -
GBA Prime
Get instant access to the latest developments in green building, research, and reports from the field.
Start Free Trial Now
- Home Group
- Antique Trader
- Arts & Crafts Homes
- Bank Note Reporter
- Cabin Life
- Cuisine at Home
- Fine Gardening
- Fine Woodworking
- Green Building Advisor
- Garden Gate
- Horticulture
- Keep Craft Alive
- Log Home Living
- Military Trader/Vehicles
- Numismatic News
- Numismaster
- Old Cars Weekly
- Old House Journal
- Period Homes
- Popular Woodworking
- Script
- ShopNotes
- Sports Collectors Digest
- Threads
- Timber Home Living
- Traditional Building
- Woodsmith
- World Coin News
- Writer's Digest
Replies
They will toenail the studs to the plate that laying on that beam .
Bottom plate is nailed to the deck. Two top plates are pulled back and the headers are nailed into the plates and the studs are toenailed into the top plates. After that slide the walls to the nailed down bottom plate and raise the wall. Toenail studs into bottom plate.
I might be able to see an advantage to that technique if that bottom plate was bolted to the foundatioin but this is on a platform already. Where's the advantage of framing it this method over shooting the bottom plate to the studs while it all lays flat on the deck?
I might be able to see an advantage to that technique if that bottom plate was bolted to the foundatioin but this is on a platform already. Where's the advantage of framing it this method over shooting the bottom plate to the studs while it all lays flat on the deck?
Whether I frame on a slab, garage block wall, or deck, the shoe gets nailed and bolted and the two top plates get tacked to the shoe and everything gets laid out.
After everything is laid out we pull the top plates back and the studs get toenailed to the top plates and then we slide the bottom of the studs until they hit thew shoe and raise the walls with no problems at all. Very simple, the will goes right up.
There's many threads on all this and I have pictures here of the shoes and plates and you will see why the shoe gets nailed down once you see the pictures.
Joe Carola
Edited 10/2/2008 7:17 pm ET by Framer
Do you inspectors ever question it? I am not disputing it works, and I am not up on the UBC since I am in Canada, but most codes apply about a 1/3 reduction factor on to the nail shear capacity when toe nailed. Yes, there are many many nails used to attach the sheathing, but most designs aim to develop the shear capacity at the intersection of the plate and the stud.
Brad
Do you inspectors ever question it? I am not disputing it works, and I am not up on the UBC since I am in Canada, but most codes apply about a 1/3 reduction factor on to the nail shear capacity when toe nailed. Yes, there are many many nails used to attach the sheathing, but most designs aim to develop the shear capacity at the intersection of the plate and the stud.
I've been framing this way for 25 years and everyone in NJ has been framing this way for a lot longer. Every house I work on 50-100 years old are framed this way toenailing studs. I guess there's nothing to question.
Toenailing studs is never questioned and we toenail with 8d's.
Joe Carola
Every time I think I've seen all the solutions to a construction technique I am given the usual boost in the shorts....telling me that there are other, better, solutions.
NOW that's interesting! I have never, 25 years, seen a base plate and two above it and definitely not seen or heard of toenailing in the studs!
Looking at the other pictures of the framing you did I can see the logic and understand the method.
Thanks, another notch in my learning curve.
ciao. ted "You can have it fast, good or cheap. You can only have two of the three. Fast and good, it won't be cheap. Good and cheap, it won't be fast. Fast and cheap, it won't be good. Now, what's your choice?"
That's what's great about these forums.
Joe Carola
I was taught this way in Morris Co. NJ (1984). Never saw any other method until the Tex-Mex crews invaded there in the late 80's.
Don't do it myself anymore; prefer to sheathe flat walls rather than standing ones.
Couple of advantages though.
Wall laps are created on the deck since the 2 top plates are already nailed together. This allows everything to kinda "lock" together once stood.
Also, all layout is completed prior to standing walls. No need to walk the plate or do the "step ladder shuffle".
The best advantage for me, as a youngster forced to hand-drive all those toe-nails for several years, was the development of nailing skills that I'd put up against anybody.The best reward for a job well done is the opportunity to do another.
I can easily see the advantages of this method of framing but I'm not big on toe-nailing for basically one reason. And the reason may be more because I'm not used to it and have seen it done poorly soon many times.
Having the floor plan laid out before throwing up the framing has got to catch any and all dimensional errors. (Why did this font size change? Expletive deleted aliens!)
(I'm back to whatever font was here to start. I don't know how I do this!)When you stand up your framing I assume that you must then have another crew member hold it or run back a temporary kicker support to maintain vertical. And really the point that makes me the most nervous is getting all the studs 'on bubble' vertical while the toenailing goes on. The poor toe-nailing I've seen has the studs going every which way and then the drywaller comes in a has a serious fit because none of the studs are consistent. Like I said poor toe-nailing.
I'm going to ask around here, Northern Ohio, to see how often, if at all, this method is used. Very curious, but there are ideocyncrasies all over the States.
(I DIDN'T TOUCH A THING! Now I'm in Times Roman, or whatever! arghhhhh!)
ciao, teD"You can have it fast, good or cheap. You can only have two of the three. Fast and good, it won't be cheap. Good and cheap, it won't be fast. Fast and cheap, it won't be good. Now, what's your choice?"
Apparently South Jersey didn't get the memo on the toenailing technique. :-) I got to see quite a few get framed in Cape May county and I didn't see your method. Is it a Central - North Jersey thing maybe?
I got to see quite a few get framed in Cape May county and I didn't see your method. Is it a Central - North Jersey thing maybe?
It must start from Cape May and up because I'm in North Jersey and I also frame in South Jersey. I framed a house in Forked River last winter. I frame in Tom's River. I framed a lot in south Jersey. Maybe they don't toenail in Cape May and that far South.
All I know is that toenailing had been done since I started 25 years ago and every house I've worked on 50-100 years old are toenailed. I learned how to facenail back in 1984 when I moved to Cape Cod and then I came home to NJ and started doing it on some jobs but it never stayed that way.
Joe Carola
Edited 10/3/2008 7:13 am ET by Framer
Those southern 3 counties (Salem, Cumberland & Cape May) of NJ aren't really NJ anyway, are they?! We're really just a Philadelphia area bleedover. I have to laugh at all the "shoobies go home" signs that are in the locals front yards. Those "shoobies" pay a lot of money into the local economy in 3 months. You might even say in the summer Cape May is the southernmost Canadian province.
Interesting--I've never seen toenailed studs on new work, even on Cape Cod. We do plenty of it on old work, fill-in framing, or when the client sees the framing and makes changes, but on Cape Cod, Boston, and Maine all I've seen is end-nailed, almost always with sheathing on.
What do you like better about it?
Mike,
I said that when I lived in Cape Cod that's where I learned how to facenail and sheath walls before standing them.
Joe Carola
Doh. Stupid reading comprehension.
After reading that other thread I think the key is that you guys have dedicated sheathing crews. We don't have them here, and we have to follow OSHA rules which slows us down (insurance co. caught us a couple times, can't afford any more rate hikes) so we would have a hard time getting all that sheathing on after the walls are framed. I think.
Hey Joe,
Dont you think you should toe-lag instead of toe-nail? Those little 8d's just might not do it :)
Sorry, couldnt help it.
Live by the sword, die by the sword....choose your sword wisely.
Dont you think you should toe-lag instead of toe-nail? Those little 8d's just might not do it :)
Only if I frame in Frenchie land...........;-)
Joe Carola
John,
Here's one thread about it and a few pictures of a house I framed.
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=70448.57Joe Carola
Thanks Joe. Seems it's really personal preference like coffee black or loaded with sugar & creamer
Seems it's really personal preference like coffee black or loaded with sugar & creamer
It's the way I was taught, but I was also taught how to frame facenailing and sheathing the walls before raising them. I'm glad I learned another way to frame.
Joe Carola
Regional thing, limited to the region right close to Joe>G<
Dave
OK, now that is settled, I see something else awfully unbalanced in that picture.
They are wearing manly hard hats, but shorts falling off the hips, sissy socks and sneakers instead of work pants, and work boots. How can they work like that?!
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Going by the footwear....I think they photoshop'ed the hard hats & tool belts on after the fact!!
Red wing sells sneakers with steel toes. I had a pair.
Those aren't Redwings.
And those shirts haven't been worked in.
Sorry. I'll re-phrase it.The Red Wing store where I bought all my work boots sold me a pair of steel toed sneakers.
I was talking to a fellow who blows fiberglass into walls of older homes. He was at one in an older part of town when he thought he was using too much fiberglass between each wall stud.
Finally, he stopped and crawled under the house. The crawl space had all that missing fiberglass because there were no bottom plates. They wound up plugging all the openings before restarting the blowing.
The way your picture shows, at least there is a bottom plate. I guess that's why my father used to call some of those older homes "Box Built"....
Bill
Top plates, bottom plate, toe nails! Who cares !
What I want to know is why the house in the background was cut in half and the two part moved so that there is a gap between them.
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.