Which comes first — hardwood floors or baseboard trim?
We are building a new home and have been struggling whether to put the hardwood floor or baseboard trim first. At first, the builder wanted to put the baseboard first, then the hardwood. He explained that any gaps due to expansion wouldn’t be seen unless you were over the baseboard looking down, whereas if you installed the hardwood first, you would be able to see expansion from across the room.
Then he advised us that the best, but more expensive way, would be to scribe the floor to the baseboard. We agreed and he said he would install the baseboard about 1/2″ above the floor so the hardwood could be scribed to fit.
Problem is, when we met with the flooring people the baseboard was not up 1/2″, but flush to the floor.
What would be the best way to proceed?
Replies
Always, always, always install floor first. Especially hardwood. That's what shoe molding is for.
There are only a couple exceptions to this rule, but this is not one if them.
Floor then base and baseshoe. Then find new builder to determine what else this idiot screwed up.
I've always done it floor first, then door casings, then baseboards.
Mostly because the floors need some space at the walls to allow for expansion- at least 1/2" or so. If the baseboards are installed first,and then the floor tight to the baseboards, then there can't be enough room for expansion.
And the floor shoe should be nailed at an angle, into the floor, NOT the baseboard.
That way, the shoe will stay tight to the floor as things move, eliminating the possibility of a gap.
Is this prefinished or site finished hardwood?
Is shoe molding to be applied to the floor/base molding intersection?
If the base is already installed, then install the hardwood with a gap and then the shoe molding to cover the gap.
more to come once you answer the 2 Qs above.
It's pre finished marbau. we weren't planning on using a shoe mold originally. The house is in final phases. Should we ask the builder to remove all the base boards or reattach 1/2 inch higher? they have been caulked already etc...
Is our only option to run the floor against with the shoe molding? Thanks
No, it's not your only option. Even on the prefinished floors I've had them laid before I came in to run base. I can't think of a case where I needed to run shoe, the base was that tight to the HW floor. Maybe a thinner base would need the shoe, though.
Get what you want. Have him pull the base so you can get the floor in.
Is this his 1st house?
Thanks John. This is like his 300th built house. He's also there all day long and engaged. We built our first house 13 years ago and we're having a better/great experience with this builder. It's just this chicken and the egg thing around the base trim and the floor. Ironically, he said he'd have his carpenter install the base trim about 1/2 higher so we could miter in the floor under. It didn't happen, painter's have been in, caulked the base boards and my brother in law that does floors for a living was upset when he came by today to scope out the job for the prefinished we want him laying next week and saw the base boards flush with the plywood flooring.
The contractor knows he is wrong. You never install the base first, he sounds like he is making up a good story.
I don't think there is a case at all where you install base tight to the subfloor. Even with carpet you hold it up 3/8" or so. I wonder if the guy got in some scheduling trouble or something? How tall is the base? Remember that the floor is going to hide 3/4" of that height and cloverleaf shoe molding another 3/4". I think in this case you are going to have to install shoe to hide what will be a gap between base and HW floor. So whatever the base measures, subtract 1 1/2" (3-1/4" will end up 1-3/4 showing, top profile on ogee base is about 5/8 or so so that leaves you with 1" flat stock showing ).
I by no means have all the answers, and I realize everyone does things differently. But there are some "rules" to follow, and I have always been taught and understood the ones I have mentioned here are some of those "rules". Your brother-in-law seems to know this rule as well.
The good news is, this ain't gonna make the house fall down! No Coffee No Workee!
Thanks Jed. The base trim is actually about 6 inches high so in theory, we have space to lose and it'll stick look "thick". Might be best to just have the florr run up against and see if we need a shoe to hide the space. We'll still try to get the base boards pulled off or raised and see if he bites. We're the first house in his cul de sac and he needs us to be good references in this economy and as he's selling the other 6-7 lots! This has been great to hear the feedback from everyone to help us decide next best steps.
Flooring first always
I've worked on a few jobs where the base was installed first both with a gap and tight to the floor. Both later looked like ####.If the builder did his job then the trim guy "might" have some scribing to do where the base meets the finshed floor. Shoe is only installed(IMHO) to hide the gap from base to floor.
Wow, I always love it when someone ( or a bunch of someones) take the "this is the only way to do this, and your builder is a moron" approach....Got news for ya.
In New England, it's been common for years to run base first, and oak later. In fact, in the circles of higher quality builders around my neck of the woods, it's " gaff" to run base over with shoe mold. "hack".
I've gotten to the point where I've accepted that it's a regional thing, and that if it works for you, and the guy you learned from, and the guy he learned from, how can you say, " NOPE! THAT'S HACK!!" ?
I've said it before, and I'll say it again, Oak, in this area, bought and acclimated DOES NOT SWELL! period. I have seen it shrink in minor fashion, never, ever, ever swell. ever.
I can show you pictures of floors I did 10 years ago, that still look great, and this thread may be the one that pizzes me off enough to figure out how to post them.:) Seriously, tho, I think it's wrong to say things like " Is this his first house?" or " Your builder knows he's wrong" just because you do it differently.
To the op, I live in Rehoboth, MA, and if you want to e-mail me, I'll snail mail you some pix, or if you're close enough, you can look at any number of floors that I've laid over an extended period of time before you condemn your builder.
Bing
Is shoe mold commonly used there?
Honestly, and this will sound like I'm saying it to support my opinion, it is not used alot in custom built houses.
It is used predominately in quick built, slapped up, multi peaked, vinyl sided kaka houses.
But I have seen it in a few nice houses. And that's why I've grown into the "to each his own" mindset.
Without the shoe mold, everyplace the trim meets the oak is a perfect, clean line of oak and painted trim, door casing ( yup, hang and case the doors first, too) stair skirts, cabinets, etc. At least if it's done by someone with talent. That's what cracks me up about the fellas that jump on this subject like the builder is satan....It's harder to do it this way!...... But it looks (imo) nicer.
Bing
Bing:
I very much subscribe to the more than one way to skin a cat type philosophy.
I also believe that regional differences are just that - regional differences. I once had a lady from Hawaii tell me: "Oh no - we don't like trim. We like the nice clean look of no trim." OK - I can respect that - not my cup-o-tea though. Another example is that I know some people in the mid west like all trim and doors stained. Very unpopular there.
I hope you didn't take my long response as "this is THE way to do it". I just said what works for me and what is common here.
It doesn't surprise me that you say that shoe mold is not common there. Just a regional difference. That was why I asked the question. Like I hear some of you all always "strap" ceilings. I don't have any experience with homes over about 2 mil though.
One other Q though: >> Without the shoe mold, everyplace the trim meets the oak is a perfect, clean line of oak and painted trim, door casing ( yup, hang and case the doors first, too) stair skirts, cabinets, etc. At least if it's done by someone with talent. << So, are you saying that the flooring butts up to these vertical surfaces or the floor goes under the vertical surfaces - or a mix? I gather you are saying the floor butts up to the base with a uniform gap? - if I'm reading you correctly - Not sure I'd care for that look.
Not argueing here - just discussing and trying to learn something.
Edited 10/26/2008 10:30 pm ET by Matt
The floors we are having installed are an exotic, pre-finished wood called Merbau. It looks a bit like Brazilian Cherry. Do you think that would make a difference vs. oak? We were going to have the wood brought to the house to acclimate before installation.
Also, I don't really like the look of a shoe mold. I haven't really seen them much in houses in this area and when I do it looks like they were used to cover a mistake. It was interesting to hear that is not usually the case.
I can't speak from experience in regards to your Merbau, because I haven't specifically used it, but I have used Brazilian Cherry going against the base, with no problem.I would think that yours being prefinished would tend to be more stable.
Acclimating as long as possible is a good start, as is keeping the house dry.I agree in regards to the molding looking like it's covering a boo boo, but I think its because I'm not used to seeing it on the floors of most of the houses I'm in. Very rarely see it in older houses here.
As to keeping the base 1/2" above the subfloor, we do this so we can maintain the same base height throughout the house. I put half inch sanded ply where we're putting tile, and the base goes down tight to that. Yes, we tile up to the base also. No, we don't put the base on top of the tile. Anyhow, this carries the same height thru from tiled areas to hardwood areas.
Bing
Sounds like that will work out pretty good since the base is a little larger.
I would like to re-state that I said I do not have all the answers and everyone does things differently. Seems like someone here got a little angry about the opinions we were giving. I also did not and would not call your builder a "hack". Never met the guy, and the fact that you like him says something at least. The things I suggested were rules I was taught to follow. Rules, of course, were made to be broken, and things happen you have to work around (which is why I asked if he had some scheduling mis-fire or something).
In summary - good news- the base isn't going to look like it's 1 1/2" tall, you love your builder, and the house is gonna survive! Bad news-You can't please all of the people all of the time!
Congrats on your house! Good luck!No Coffee No Workee!
I think you may have misinterpreted my post(s). First, none were directed at you, as you're pretty much offering opinions, and advise, without condemning the guy. I think that's fine. It's what we should all be doing!
Secondly, I'm not even remotely angry, I just don't like it when, because a method is different, certain people jump on it without all the info that's pertinent. I don't need proof that my method works; I've been doing it that way for long enough that my conscience is way clear. But the op is in a position of " Holy ####, does this guy have a clue?" and to rag on their builder, especially when it sounds like their client/builder relationship has been a love fest so far, is, I think, unfair in this particular case.We're not talking about a roofer that butted his shingles up against a wall and filled the space with caulk instead of step flashing it; then, I would scream foul, as would anyone here. And regardless of whether the response was "use aluminum" or " use copper" they'd be right.(Although we'd probly argue about that too, so...:) It's a lot less cut and dry........
Peace
Bing
Agreed. Thanks Bing187.No Coffee No Workee!
Maybe this is a regional thing, but we have always installed base before unfinished and prefinshed hardwood (3/4). They both should be aclimated(sp) before install so that expansion and contraction is minimal. I agree with your builder, the gap is alot less visible done this way.
The laminate flooring needs the expansion and should be installed prior to base install.
This is one of those areas where different techniques are used by different people, as you can see by the varying opinions. I don't think your buider is as incompentent as some people here feel.
Tim
We're building in MA and are Sox (Red) fans. The builders been a great guy and been good to us so far. My sister's company is doing the floors. My sister has said she's never installed after base board...The Builder swears he's alway argues with the flooring folks on this and he's suggesting the better way and he thinks the floor people hate the extra work...lastly, to your point, we are building a NE home too if it matters on region.
Edited 10/26/2008 6:46 pm ET by Zoe25
Edited 10/26/2008 6:49 pm ET by Zoe25
Edited 10/28/2008 6:43 pm ET by Zoe25
prefinished huh....
I always install prefinished flooring as late in the building process as possible. Reason? Less chance of the floor getting damaged. That means after the trim installation, first painting, the plumb, HVAC and Elect trim outs. The only exception is if the hardwood has to go under the toilet(s). The only downside to trim (etc) first is that the flooring guys have to do a good job of cutting the door jambs to just the right height so the hardwood can just slip under them.
If it is a site finished hardwood floor I have the boards nailed down before any trim but sanded and finished after most trim and paint but before the shoe mold. Then the trim carpenters are responsible for minimizing the gaps at the door casing and jamb to floor intersection.
We use shoe mold on all hardwood floors.
If someone doesn't want to use shoe mold then the base must be installed after the floor. The reason for using shoe though is that it will conform better to irregularities in the floor better than base mold. The gaps left under the shoe mold are going to be smaller than they would be using base alone. The alternative of no shoe mold often requires that the base be not only installed after the hardwood, but also that the base needs to be carefully scribed to the floor in some areas.
BTW - The shoe is nailed to the baseboard. Think of the wall, baseboard and shoe mold as one assembly or the "wall assembly" and the floor itself as a separate assembly. The joint at the floor/"wall assembly" intersection is a slip joint that allows the floor to move around. The large floor expanse of tightly mated boards will expand and contract with temperature and humidity changes. The trim nailed to the wall will be pretty stable.
Personally, I like the look of shoe mold - usually painted shoe mold unless the base is stained rather than painted. Floor areas intersecting with stained cabinets always get shoe to match the cabinets.
IMO in your situation, since the base is already installed, you need to have the floor installed with maybe a ~1/4" gap at the base mold and then shoe installed. The only detriment to your current situation is that the base looks a little more "squatty" when 3/4" (or whatever) of it is hidden behind the edge of the flooring.
Personally I think builders have better perspective as to how a job should be sequenced than a subcontractor. The builder is responsible for the overall result and the overall budget. The sub is only responsible for one part of the job and tends not to have as clear a picture of the overall project. For example, ask a flooring contractor what kind of shoe is to be installed and he possibly won't know unless he is responsible for installing the shoe. The builder has to know at least a little bit about how every job on the job site is done. The sub knows one job very well. OK - the sub may know several jobs very well of he offers several trades as his service offering. OTOH, it is a mistake for anyone to think he might know another person's trade better than the guy doing it - unless he has done that job as a profession.
BTW - I was at the UNC/Boston College game yesterday when the BC team was beaten pretty well... ;-)
I was taught, over 30 years ago, to nail the shoe to the floor, or better yet, into the subfloor.
That way, the shoe stays tight to the finish floor, and won't leave a gap if/when the baseboards move. And the baseboards/wall can move without disturbing the joint at the shoe.
Its worked for me for over 30 years, and it worked for my dad for a lot of years before that.
If your method works for you, don't change it. There's more than one way to do things.
I was taught, over 30 years ago, to nail the shoe to the floor, or better yet, into the subfloor.
Sit back and enjoy this thread. Have fun!
http://forums.jlconline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44528
Joe Carola
WOW!
that's a long thread for when to run base LOL.
I go to JLC on occasion, and saw the beginning of that thread. But I had no idea it would stay so long.
And I see there's no consensus on how to nail shoe at JLC, either. My way worked for me for me and my dad for over 50 years, so I'm not changing now. But if nailing to the base works for others, even tho I wouldn't do it that way, I don't care if they continue.
I hear ya. I'm actually glad you chimed in being in somewhat close proximity to us. Regarding our builder, I'm actually a big fan of his and the way he's been treating us and how good the experience has been to date. Don't think I've thrown him under the bus yet. In fact, the reason we're at this point, is I've learned to trust his tell it like it is style, similar to mine. In the spirit of flushing it out one more time, and while things can be adjusted if necessary, I turned to you all for some feedback. And great feedback it is. And very much appreciated. This is obviously a good topic because of the feelings on both sides of the fence.
Of course, I'm liking what BaDaBing is saying here!...with conviction no less.
Thanks guys!!
Edited 10/26/2008 10:16 pm ET by Zoe25
Edited 10/28/2008 6:45 pm ET by Zoe25
I have done it both ways. you can run the flooring up to the base but usually you do that in an older home where you want to add hardwood floors. it is easier to install the floor before the trim.
you could leave the base up high enough to slip the flooring under, then shoe after the floor is finished. if you do that you have to re-cut all of the door jambs and casings so you can slip the flooring under those
that's just unnecessary work for the flooring installer.
floor installers are notorious hack artists. I dont know about you but I dont want the flooring guys hacking at my trim with a jamb saw
as far as your question as to the best way to proceed, remove the baseboard and reinstall after the floor. it'll come off easier than you think and its already cut to lengths. this time scribe it to the floor
I think pulling your base would be a ridiculous waste of money and labor....A good installer can make this look great, and last for as long as any other floor.Find one that's good, ( even if it p.o's your sister), and he won't even bat an eyelash at fitting to it.
And as for "floor installers being notorious hack artists".... I find that guys who have screen names like "Maverick" are notorious Tom Cruise fans. Generalization doesn't help anybody, and you're guaranteed to tick someone off.......
Bing
PS - I hate Tom Cruise... :-) OK - he is a pretty good actor - but the money he has made has over-inflated his ego to astronomical proportions....
You said prefinished?
In my area, if you want perfect hardwood?
The floor goes first. Followed by baseboards(about a 4lb finish nail up off the flooring), followed by at least a first cut sand if not a total finsh before shoe molding.
For prefinish?
Hold the baseboard up the thickness of the floor plus a little (like 1/32) so that it can be installed at the end without a bunch of walking on it.
Baseboard first, run to the floor? Then flooring run to it?
Never seen it done that way new. Doesn't mean it can't be done that way.
But let me ask this. DO you expect your house to move? At least in the first year?
A little tug here, a little pull there as it acclimates to differences in summer and winter humidity? Heat and AC?
I would rather have one piece of baseboard over a hundred pieces of flooring than 100 pieces of flooring all butted into one piece of baseboard.
And if you space the flooring off the baseboards? How much will the shoe cover? Will that leave you enough for movement?
Great point. To quote:
I would rather have one piece of baseboard over a hundred pieces of flooring than 100 pieces of flooring all butted into one piece of baseboard.
Bing? Movement and spacing and uneven over time?
Interesting thread.
Question for everyone: If installing prefinished hardwood, if it goes in before the base, what about possible collateral damage during base install and painting?
I'm not a builder but I have built three houses of my own over the past 20 years. Completed the last one in July. In the first two I had field finished HW and we installed that first, then all the trim, then primed and painted trim and walls, then sanded and finished the floors. In this last one we had prefinished HW so we installed all the trim (yes, base held up about 7/8"), primed and painted trim and walls, then installed the floor and shoe. The whole thing came out looking great.
I did it that way because I've found, no matter how careful I was running the job, there was always a chance of collateral damage by the one workman not paying attention and I'm not there. Even with how careful I was (covered the entire floor with the left over cardboard flooring boxes), the HW floor did suffer some dings during punchout. I don't think I could have managed it with more stuff to do.
Thanks,
Runnerguy
prefinished floors and >> collateral damage << Exactly!! For example, often electricians are really good about dropping screws or screw cut-offs on the floor. Doesn't matter what the floor is covered with unless it is plywood or similar, when these screws get stepped on it's bad news. From my experience when prefinished is installed early on in the building process the question is not if they will get damaged but how much they get damaged. The darker the floor, the more it shows.
I think more of the issue that was uncovered in this thread is: what if you don't want shoe?
Damage is exactly what I'm thinking is the reason for floor after base.
I'd never seen it until I moved out here, but most builders here do base before either wood or tile. The flooring co is pretty much the last sub in.
Does is look shabby with grout stuck all in the base detail, and 1/4rd on every hw floor, and 3/4 of the base buried? You betcha.
But keeping the painters and finish carps from wrecking the hw or tile, is the only reason I've ever gotten out of any of them.
Damage during build.yeah, we had some of that during our recent build - some by hack appliance installers, some by "all thumbs" tradesmen doing gravity tests with <insert heavy, point object here - screwdrivers, cordless drills, hammers, whatnot>.Got my undies in a bunch and was going to have builder come in and replace boards with scratches/dents.Then, we moved in and our two boys, aged 3 and 1.5, proceeded to throw every single last plastic/metal pointy toy up into the air, down on said floors performing their own gravity checks.Let's just say I'm happy we put in a beautiful rustic looking yellow birch... a more uniform floor would show all the battle scars my two boys have put down in less than a year.oh well!
I just installed 1600 sq ft of prefinished 5 1/4 hand scraped hardwoods. The hardwoods were 5/8 thick, tongue and groove. I installed base first. Used 3/4 blocks about every 5 feet to hold the base of the floor and leave room for hardwoods and roofing felt. Painters came in, did they're thing...didnt have to mask the bejesus out of the house and got outta the way. Ran the flooring, then ran the shoe...painter touched up and thats it. No dings from dragging equipment or sprayers, no taking off shoes. It maybe added a few hours having to use blocks for trim install but really not that big off a deal. I think either way is fine as long as you use spacer blocks. No right or wrong way, just a matter of opinion
OK, that makes sense to me.
From a number of posts in this thread, I was visualizing the baseboards set right on the subfloor, and the hardwood floor butted to the base.
What you were visualizing is close; the base should be 1/2" above the subfloor. this keeps the line of the top of the base consistent thru the house, and keeps the base closer to it's full width, but keeps 1/4" below hwood. Aitch kay is absolutely correct in general....wood moves. However, the whole " quarter inch for expansion " argument is Na-Da. I have said, and will continue to insist, that I have not seen oak, or B cherry, or even some syp (don't like, but have used) swell on a floor, at least in my area of working experience!! I'm not saying it doesn't happen anywhere, but I would certainly think I would have seen it once, somewhere!
I will back off that statement only in the circumstance of a finished basement that I saw, that had a serious moisture issue, where it had pushed up a little. And honestly, if I were using it in an area where a lot of moisture was a danger, I'd be here seeking answers.
As Soxfan has said...it is very common here. As is strapping ceilings. But I'm not posting, " Why would you not strap the ceilings? Are you stupid?"
In regards to how I lay my oak, I butt tight to the base, up to it and 1 tap. I undercut the casing, but I notch exact around the jamb. The hardest part, quite honestly, is fitting the rips to the base, but it's made me a better carp, cause there's no hiding it....you can scribe and sand, or you can't.
I realize there will never be agreement across the board on this, but to the op, I'll just say this; I receive compliments on a regular basis on floors that I did years ago, and I always get a kick out of it, because hardwood flooring is not my " main thing " I do maybe 5-15,000 ft. a year, alot in the houses that I'm overseeing....cause I like it. I can tell you that while there won't be a consensus on method, there is no need to take ANYTHING out, because floors are, have been, and will be done all the time around here in just the fashion you need. I will also say that, and I don't know if it affects anything one iota, I don't ever use felt under a floor. I was taught red rosin, and used it until a couple years ago, when my kitchen guy showed me some photo paper that was the rage in the houses he was doing kitchens in in Boston. Like 10 million $ homes. So...I trust him as a carp, and started using it, and have had no problems....
my .02
Bing
So, are you saying the OP should fire his sister?
:-)
" So are you saying the op should fire his sister?"
Well, not really, but it wouldn't seem to be the best circumstances for her to learn a new method of flooring ;)
Bing
Thanks for the reply.
I was taught differently all those years ago, but I'm not going to get into a battle about which way is better. Obviously, both work.
I've always been curious about techniques from other parts of the country. I've only worked in the central Jersey area, so what other areas do may seem strange to me, but I do try to learn.
Two really good reasons for floor first:
1) Wood moves. Period.
That's the whole reason behind raised-panel doors, for instance: a 3' wide plank door will be drafty in the winter, and stick in the summer. We float a panel in a groove so that we only have to allow for the movement of the two 4-6"-wide rails.
So asking a 14'-wide floor not to move is pretty risky. And saying that it will ONLY shrink, and NEVER swell is pretty risky, too: acclimate it in dry February and watch the ridges buckle upwards in humid July.
Humidifiers in the Winter and AC in the Summer will help, but some people like to open their windows every now and then.
2) Floor first is much less expensive.
Cutting every single piece of flooring to exact length is completely unnecessary. The only "advantage" is that you don't have to use shoe.
But most people consider moldings attractive -- you certainly don't look at crown molding and assume that the carpenters were just using a "cheat" to cover up a bad wall/ceiling joint!
Pick an attractive shoe profile: 3/4" quarter-round is usually too clunky-looking. As a rule, pick a profile that's taller than it is wide. 1/2" x 3/4" shoe is good, or use a molded-edge doorstop profile for an old-house look.
In your case, I'd consider using a jamb saw to cut off the bottom edge of the baseboard. A jamb saw is a circular saw that rolls on the subfloor with its blade parallel with the floor. You adjust its height to cut 1/16" to 1/8" more than the thickness of the floor, and have at it.
It's not that hard, and will certainly take much, much less time than cutting every single piece of flooring to exact length.
At the doorways, set the saw to the thickness of the floor plus a business card or two, and carefully -- these cuts will show -- cut off the jambs and casings.
Good luck!
AitchKay
Since you live in this area. Go take a look at any split, ranch, or cape built from the 1950-1980. I will almost guarantee that all of the harwood was installed after the base. (as I type this i am looking at the base/hardwood in my office and it was done this way. No unsightly gaps).
We still plaster our walls, while most of the rest of the country uses drywall. Should we assume that drywall is better than plaster, I don't think so.
Its gotta be a regional thing.
I've worked in many houses around here, from a couple of centuries old, to just a decade or two old. I don't think I've ever seen floor installed after base.
And if the base and shoe are nailed the way I was taught, there's no unsightly gaps.
How do you guys deal with the floor around door casings? Do you scribe the floor to fit, or undercut just the door casings?
I'm not being critical, just curious.
I usually run casings long to the subfloor and use the Japanese saw and a piece of flooring as the thickness guide and you can just slip a little of the flooring under the case.
I like to do doors, windows, & all casings first, then floors, then run your base & shoe if needs.
But, I do all different combos depending on who's available when & what the builder wants.
I usually do my trim in the same order as you.
But I like to use my MultiMaster instead of a Japanese saw (although I do have a Silky saw in my van).
I'm gettin' lazy in my old age.
Hi Shep,
All of the flloring guys around here undercut all of the door frames.
Tim
mike
please tell me that you Rhode Islanders don't put your base before your hardwood, too.
scratching my head here in PA where hardwood floors move like crazy in the summer and winter.
carpenter in transition
So, isn't tradition kind of important when it comes to questions
of esthetics like this?
In my neck of the woods the base was always put on last.
I've never seen any Greek, Italian, Federal etc. done the other
way.
Was it different in other locations back in the day?
I do think tradition is important, and I think in the tradition of arguing carpenters, you could find each of those examples done both ways by stubborn greeks, Italians, and colonists, bent on doing it right......and ###ing about the alternative. It's what ya gotta love about this place, right? :)
Bing
Absolutely.
Every craftsmen finds his own way and nothing is more important
then how we feel our work should be done.
I'm just curious if it was always a regional thing.I suspect it
always varied to some extent, but if not then when doing standard or
traditional styles we have basis for comparison.
tim...how cum i got dragged into this cat fight?wood floors move...so.....floors first.. leave 1/2" space at all wallsthen install base... if it's good .. just install itif there is a lot of up and down.. then scribe the baseshoe is optional.. but if you use a shoe it gets nailed to thh base so the floor can move under itbut hey, whadda i no ?Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
cause these guys said new englanders all slam wedge the hardwood in between the baseboards.
phew.
common sense prevails.
carpenter in transition
I hhave no doubt that your floors look great; I've seen enough photos of your work to know that you take pride in your work. We aren't very far apart, have you seen floors done the other way, and in your experience, how did they look?
And holy crup is it raining....hope you're inside today, I just started an addition in Exeter Tuesday, on a foundation over 3 inches out of square ( homeowner got a much better price than my form guy gave, and now all the dough he saved is coming to me for extra time shimming and straightening this mess out).
Bing
no good deed goes unpunished...
i've seen it done both ways...
i'd rather install the floor, then spend some time an money protecting it.... just so i can follow my sequence
i think all floors move..... especially when yu have no control over how the homeowner is going to condition his space
some will have very damp homes.. some will have very dry homes...
i've seen them shrink... i've seen them buckle.. i want the gap all the way around and the baseboard covering the gap.. or the shoe covering
my impression has always been that the baseboard allows for expansion/ contraction and the shoe is just for vertical cover... so they don't have to scribe for a nice fitMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"my impression has always been that the baseboard allows for expansion/ contraction and the shoe is just for vertical cover... so they don't have to scribe for a nice fit"
base and shoe is to hid the cracks you'd see while standing and looking down.
crown is for hiding the cracks you'd see while standing and looking up.
prety simple stuff ... they figured it all out a coupla hundred years ago.
maybe even thousands ...
big wood covers big cracks ... smaller wood covers smaller cracks ...
and fancy built up trim was invented.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
"and the big wheel turns by the grace of god....all in the middle of the sky"Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
trim on wheels would be the rims.
shoe(s) would be the tires.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Ezekial saw the wheel, way up in the middle of the air
a wheel within a wheel
way in the middle of the air...Praise the Lord andsay Amen somebody!
Here's my 2 cents,
The "original method" was base first, because they were doing plaster, they used the base as a stop, then hardwood floor w/ a gap at the base, then shoe mold to hide the gap. The shoe is nailed to the base, NOT the floor, to allow for seasonal movement of the flooring.
On modern installs, hardwood is 1st (prefinished 3/4", site finished, or engineered floors) leaving a gap at the walls, then base is installed (scribed to floor if needed), covering the gap, on top of hardwood. There is no need for a shoe mold as the gap is covered by the base, but it's use is more from "tradition" than necessity, as there is no exposed gap.
Of course there are instances where a shoe is needed or may be added, and the shoe should always be nailed to the base, not the floor.
Any one who installs a floor tight to a baseboard is asking for trouble.
Geoff
i've never seen base used as a plaster ground..
the old plaster jobs i've seen have a ground at the bottom of the wall.... behind the baseMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I have seen where they would use the wood plaster grounds up until the brown coat, install the base which gets tacked to the grounds, and then do the white coat. Not normal, but I've seen it. Maybe that's what Geoffrey means.
Jer,
Yes, that's that's what I'm talking about, sorry I didn't go into the details of it, thought it might gum up the works, too many details at once ya know......... it seems to be more common on homes w/horse hair-plaster and lathe systems, at least as I remember.
One other method I forgot to mention is the "Connecticut shoe" which is a stained shoe installed on the floor against the wall, the painted base is then installed on top of the shoe, the base having a rabbet cut on the bottom of the backside, the base then covers the very top portion of the shoe leaving the bottom portion exposed, the shoe is really more of a small base-cap molding profile rather than a "traditional" shoe mold...... this is definitely a "regional style" and seems to date back to the early to mid fifties give or take a few years.
Geoff
"i've never seen base used as a plaster ground.. "
was done lots around here.
got buried base / casing here at this old house. Built 1902.
also have a buried main stack in the bathroom. That corner of the bath is kinda / sorta curved. Whole wall is really thick too ... cut in an outlet ... chunk was about 2.5" thick ... same wall as stack ... but 3-4 ft away from corner.
have always wondered if it's just really thick plaster or the lathe is bent over the cast stack ... never been curious enough to drill a hole thru the plaster and into my stack.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
well now - that kinda ties it all together doesn't it?No Coffee No Workee!
"Any one who installs a floor tight to a baseboard is asking for trouble"
I've been asking for something like 20 years, I guess I'm asking the wrong person, cause I haven't gotten any.
If the base was used as a stop for the plaster, where's the base? flush with the plaster? Whatever......
Yep. Base shoe here is considered a failure of craftsmanship.
Although I think it is way cool. It's like a boob job for your floors.
"It's like a boob job for your floors."These golden little snippets trickle down my backside like ice water at 6:45 in the morning.
I like shoe. To me, it finishes the intersection between the wall and floor.
But I admit, it looks better on wider base, like 5" and up.
AMEN !....
the little wheel rolled by faith...
and the big wheel rolled by the grace of god
i was trying to remember what moved the little wheel... so i asked helen... she said "what ? "
congregationalist, don't ya know
Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Oh Lord it's been years since I've sung that one. One of my favorites in Sunday school.
"but if you use a shoe it gets nailed to thh base so the floor can move under it"
that's always been my logic. The floor moves ... not so much the base nailed tight to the walls. So why nail the shoe to the part that moves?
and base shouldn't be optional ... should be mandatory.
it's just "right".
so either lay the floor or hold the base up a hair then lay the floor ...
then put shoes on it.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
We always install baseboard to be painted prior to flooring. Block it up the thickness of the base (using typical 9/16" base) when over carpet and the thickness of the flooring + 1/16" or so when over hardwood.
Install hardwood and then shoe.
I see base shoe in most houses around here. I'm not saying it's right or best, but that's what we do.
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
That's another regional difference- around here, I've never seen the base blocked up for carpet.
We set the base to the floor, and then the carpet guys butt the carpet to the base.
I've never seen it either, but I do it. I leave about 1/4" - 3/8" gap. I think I got the idea from carpet installers. It allows the carpet backing to slip underneath without pressure on it. I think the cut edge of the carpet comes out nicer this way. It also allows the carpet to be re-stretched a little if it becomes necessary.
And since no floor is ever flat, it makes installing baseboard easier when you don't have to worry about bending the baseboard in the vertical plane. Of course, if I was installing over a hardwood floor, I would get as close as possible and then use shoe mold for any remaining gaps.
So, posting in the early afternoon, does that mean you're not working today? I'm not. I've hit a lull, but I mentioned to a few few of my regulars that I was a little slow and they're keeping me in mind. Thanks to them, I've got a few upcoming jobs to bid.
I'm doing little jobs right now, and am finishing early quite often. I've got a bathroom remodel going in Westfield, but I'm waiting for the plumber and electrician to do their work.
I just may have to try leaving the base up the next time.
carpet tuck.
always a good idea.
unless it's big thick carpet ... fat end of the shim works nice as a spacer.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
How do you repaint the base with the carpet jammed up against it.
This is a serious question, since I have several rooms that the carpet jammed up against the base, and I have no idea how to paint the base without getting paint all over the carpet, short of pulling the carpet off the tack strip and restretching it after I paint.
you use a blade to depress the carpet...
paint it...move the blade
paint...move the blade...
every once in a while you have to wipe the blade offMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Regarding what Mike said, a large drywall knife (taping knife) works good. They also sell "paint shields" at most all the usual places. Just keep your brush kinda dry...
All: Here is what see in this thread. Most all of us are here to learn. Hone our craft. Although there are a number of ways to do things that work fine (base first/last, shoe/no shoe, whatever) and there are regional differences, seems like about 90% of the people here agree on the basics of how to get to the destination the individual has selected. At some point the other 10% might want to consider that since they found one other guy to agree with them that still might not really add up to "no consensus".
Here is an example of what I learned here, related to this very topic a few years back. Here we use shoe on hardwood. Multiple hardwood guys had sold me on stained shoe mold up against painted base. I thought it was a good thing. Functional. Thought it looked good. Did a number of houses that way. Everybody at BT said it looked like pooch phew. :-) I've since come over to the "light side". No more stained shoe except up against cabinets. My flooring contractor continues to try to sell me stained shoe... BTW - I'll do no shoe too if a home buyer wants that look and is willing to pay extra...
I'm still on the "dark side". I've seen too many painted shoes that looked bad from the accumulated dings, dirt, and dust.Do you paint your shoe prior to installation or do you cut in against the flooring? That's my other big beef with painted shoe.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
>>I'm still on the "dark side". I've seen too many painted shoes that looked bad from the accumulated dings, dirt, and dust.<< That was one of the reasons I used to like it.
>>Do you paint your shoe prior to installation or do you cut in against the flooring? That's my other big beef with painted shoe. << I use pre-primed shoe. Then my painters paint it. (not me)
If it is stained shoe, like up against cabinets, I prefinish, have the carps install it, and then get the painters to putty the nail holes and stain the few raw ends.
One really good thing about preprimed shoe is that when it is being used in wet areas like bathrooms with sheet vinyl, I think it is very important that the shoe is back-primed. I also have my painters caulk shoe to the vinyl floors. I'd say I'm above average when it comes to caulking, but you have to be really good to caulk shoe to a floor such that it is not really noticeable - ie to get a fine crisp line.
Edited 10/30/2008 7:49 pm ET by Matt
Regarding base as a plaster ground: Kind of a 50's thing in Calif. A half round was put over the plaster/ ground joint and the whole thing painted. Remodeled quite a few of those.John
That's a good point about back priming in wet areas. To be honest, I've never thought about that but I'm going to start now.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
What Mike Smith said.
Or you can see how steady your hand is, and try to cut it in . But I don't recommend that way. I've seen a lot of carpet painted along the base.
Paint stores, and the big boxes sell a device made for painting along carpeting. Its basically a curved piece of sheetmetal, with a handle, about 10'-12" long. But since I have a bunch of wide spackle knives, that a stiffer than those gadgets, I use them when I'm forced to paint.
Maybe it is a regional thing but i put my ceramic down first after the walls are primed so you don't have to undercut the jams. Then Trim, cabinets, paint, countertops then install wood or vinyl. If its a pre-finished floor with shoe molding, you need to know if its 3/4 or 3/8 engineered and there should be absolutely no problem. I have done Hundreds of homes this way and they come out beautiful and it saves your floors from being trashed.