I’m installing aprox. 20 recessed lights in an open non-insulated basement ceiling that is yet to be drywalled (not a suspended ceiling). My question is: do you prefer to pull the wire, install the frame and can between the joists first, install drywall and then cut-out drywall exactly where the cans are mounted?
OR do you find it easier to supply a generous amount of 14/2 wire in place for each light, install drywall, and then cut holes and pop the lights in using the ‘retro-fit’ clips?
It seems it would be easier to lay-out the 5″ can holes exactly where you want them (i.e. 4ft o.c.) once the drywall is up, cut the holes, pull the wire through and connect to cans (as in the second method) vs. mounting all the plaster frames and having to remember where your cans are installed.
The only thing one would have to be careful of is 1.) making sure you are between joists when retrofitting and cutting the holes and 2.) the wire is within arms reach. The boxes of lights I’ve been buying give both options.
Thanks in advance…
Mike
Edited 1/18/2005 12:51 pm ET by MG911
Replies
Mike, I can only imagine that you are doing the drywalling too? I couldn't think of a worse way to install 20 recessed cans. If you aren't doing the drywall, just set your cans and let the drywaller deal with zipping around all the cans.
If you are doing the drywalling, I can't see where you are going to get ahead; I think your layout may be a problem on drywall, let alone cutting out the holes in the drywall, fishing for the wire you tucked up there, wiring everything up, etc., etc.
Best thing to do is just layout string, mark on the string with a black felt pen the edge of all your cans, and install from there! Also, installing this way (without drywall installed first) will give you heaps more flexibility should you realize you want to move cans once they've been installed. I screwed in my cans to ceiling joists, and moved a few rows once I got a feel for my final layout.
Hi Wiley, yes I am also doing the ever enjoyable task of boarding/taping&mudding the ceiling myself. These clients are refusing to put up a suspended ceiling and I have to agree, I prefer the look of a drywalled ceiling.
Mike
Well Mike, let me know how it goes; I betcha anything they are going to change their minds on location of the cans once you've installed them. "Couldn't you just move those five fixtures about four inches to the right and back away from the edge of the cabinets a wee bit?"
We've been putting the lights in after the D.W. for a couple years now. Works great; makes the finishing easier too, as they always seem to fall on a joint. I think it is easier to get the layout dead on this way, too.If anybody ever said
That I give a damn,
Well they damn sure told you wrong.
I've had ramblin' fever all along.
- Merle Haggard
Thanks for the replies so far...
Mike, if I read your response correctly, you don't use the metal joist hangers and use the retrofit clips instead?
The other thing I don't like about the 'plaster frames' is that they seem to slide back and forth very easily if bumped. I've heard this may result in the odd oval cut-out as opposed to a nice perfect 5" circle when using a roto-zip.
I posed this very question to an electrician friend tonight. In hindsight, I shouldn't have been surprised when he told me he hooks up all the fixtures before any of the drywall goes up. I had to chuckle when he said he had no idea how the D.W. guys do the layout/cutouts. He's well onto the next job by then and all that needs to be attached are the trim pieces.
I wonder which method is in the minority??
The other thing I don't like about the 'plaster frames' is that they seem to slide back and forth very easily if bumped. I've heard this may result in the odd oval cut-out as opposed to a nice perfect 5" circle when using a roto-zip.
If we're thinking about the same, where this was an issue, I "clamped" the sliding area(s) to be sure they didn't move.
he said he had no idea how the D.W. guys do the layout/cutouts.
Generally, if it was like on my job, the DW'ers basically work off an edge of installed sheetrock i.e. measuring how far the next can(s) is, stabbing it, going to the edge of can, removing the rotozip, placing on the outside of the can and going around the OD.
Thanks again for taking the time to reply. You've given me some food for thought.
Mike
Something else to consider is when installing the cans first, you can fire up the circuit and 'test' the lighting layout before it's too late to move anything. I did a basement with 30 some 5" low voltage halogens and left a couple feet of wire looped in the joist pocket to allow for movement of the fixtures. It's a good way to get the homeowner to OK that detail. It's not that big a deal to take measurements and do the cuts after the dw is up.
I go with option #2. I usually run the wire to where the lights are supposed to be on the wiring plan, then use "remodel" - style fixtures. Best way to cut them in is with a holesaw; it's quick and perfect. Greenlee and others make holesaws sized for recessed light installation. You'll probably never wear one out just cutting drywall with it.
Hi SB, interesting to see your response as I was just looking for 5" hole saws online ($30-40?!). I know some of the others on here prefer the plaster frame method but I just can't see the problem with method #2.
As long as I leave plenty of romex (inexpensive anyway) for each light so that I have a bit of play room between joists, and that I make sure I don't run into any ducts, why not? I will also connect and install the cans to test all of them prior to taping DW joints. Worst case scenario - I have to take down a sheet of DW to inspect some wiring. I'd rather work around the DW than make it work around the lights.
I think I should be more worried about taping/mudding this ceiling than the lights...wish me luck.
Mike
Just finished a house with 90 cans. I put them up first (new Construction cans). When it came time to drywall I got rough measurements and then I turned on the lights (just use regular bulbs during construction), you can feel the heat through the drywall. Then I cut them out with a rotozip, worked great.
None of the cans moved on you with the rotozip? They seem to slide back and forth with the plaster frames very easily (unless individually taped to prevent this as posted in a previous reply).
Also, if your rotozip is anything like mine, the dust that spews out when making DW cuts is a nuissance during a renovation where existing living spaces are close by. I can only imagine the dust 90 cut-outs would make.
Out of curiosity, have you ever considered using the retro-fit clips instead? There doesn't seem to be a grey area on this topic...Mike.
I didn't have any problems with movement. Screw the drywall to the ceiling (staying maybe two feet from the can). There is enough tension to hold the can in place.
Messy? You bet, but the hole comes out perfect. Actually some of the cans in the house I described were retro fit. I didn't have any problems with those but I don't have a 6 inch hole saw and still feel it was easier to cut out with a rotozip.
Are we talking about the retro fit clips that rip through the drywall after you take the trim rings off and on more than 2 times ?
carpenter in transition
Do they? These 5" cans are supplied with 4 'c' shaped clips to be used with the retro-fit method. I can't see these ripping any DW....but haven't had them long enough to find out.
Mike
maybe they have improved or perhaps it's a different or better brand than what I am used to. Instead of a c clip, I was familiar with a wire pin that was inserted into the drywall edge. Total POS. Worked fine as long as you only installed the trim ring once. Any serious upward pressure on the housing would rip the clips through the drywall. And it often took pressure to get the trims on.
carpenter in transition
that rip through the drywall after you take the trim rings off
After you cut the hole, but some of the self-adhesive mesh DW tape on the back of the DW. This helps keep the edge from crumbling away, and makes it harder for the clips to "bite" a piece of the ceiling away.
Yes, it's a pain to add the little strips around the hole, but so are call backs--or filling way-too-small DW chunks. Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)