tomorrow i am installing 7 boards of 5/8 sheetrock on my bedroom ceiling, today i took down the plaster and lath, what a mess. so i have 5lbs of 1 5/8 fine thread or 2″ coarse thread. which screw should i use? also using liq. nails with the srews.
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Replies
i'd use 1-5/8" coarse.
Coarse thread is for wood - fine for metal studs.
Would not hurt to use the 2" coarse if that is all you have, but it ccan be a PITA when you don't really need the length.
but it's only seven sheets....
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
"i'd use 1-5/8" coarse."
Would that be a Piffin screw?
John
'coarse
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
Neither screw is appropriate. Fine thread is for metal framing and 2" screws are too long. I would use 1-5/8" course thread.
And I wouldn't bother with adhesive, but it has its proponents. I've used it when adding a layer of 3/8" drywall as insurance against sagging, but I don't know what purpose it serves when screwing drywall to studs/joists.
Don, I agree with you when it comes to the adhesive. I don't see the need when installing directly to wood. I've seen a rocker do that before and it just seemed like a lot of wasted of time and money. And think of the hassle if there was ever a need to pull a piece off. Now you've got to chisel off the dried adhesive.....NO THANKS!
I use adhesive when the customer wants it, and I do feel it makes for a more solid wall. But I don't see it as necessary for a good job. I leave it up to the customer, about half the time they opt to use it. ~ Ted W ~
Cheap Tools! - MyToolbox.netSee my work at TedsCarpentry.com
and watch out for the VOC's in the liquid nails...
a tad dangerous....
ventilate well....
change the LN for OSI if you can...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Let me go against the tide. You already got 5lbs of 1 5/8 Fine.
Screw away to your hearts content.
Most 'Rockers' in my area prefer the fine to the coarse. They say they're more forgiving, less pops. Their wisdom is that an extra 1/2 turn on a coarse screw and it might overdrive, while it wouldn't with a fine thread.
I'm not a 'Rocker' this is just what they tell me.
I've heard that fine thread screws don't have the holding power of coarse and could strip out. I say bunk to that arguement.
Let's have some more "experts" chime in and see if they want to pile on. ;-)
But on the other end of it..... ALWAYS use fine thread for metal studs.
I'd give the fine threads a shot too. Old lumber is pretty hard, the fine thread will be less likely to snap when driving it home.
I was looking around for some arguments anti fine thread.
I thought maybe someone might quote some seismic code prohibiting them.
Fine thread is still superior in holding power to a nail IMO, and lots of people (me included) still use nails to start the panel then screw it off later.
There's a lot of awkward areas that nails work better for also.
To Jim,
I agree with your assessment and fix for overdrives, but I've never seen a job where you didn't have to come back and adjust some fasteners.
Underdriven ones are just as common as overdriven.
>>Underdriven ones are just as common as overdriven.<<
I agree, I do both equally as well.
One thing bad about being a one man shop --- there is never anyone else to blame!
I usually screw a sheet to the wall and immediately run a 3" knife over the screw heads - if the knife clicks as it goes past a screw, it needs work. It's easier to fix right then.......or you can wait and find it at the first coat of mud!
Jim
PS: One group from church just got back from NOLA, next trip in November (unknown week), then Feb.28, 2010. I may be on both - keep you posted. Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Jim,
I went by the 'Ferry Place' work site about 5-6 months ago. They had a couple more houses up and some more construction going on.
It was dark and about 8 at night..... looked like a pretty rough neighborhood.
My date wondered what the hell I was doing cruising the hood. I told her some hooker I knew lived around here and she owes me 50 bucks.
I got some real bad looks the rest of the night ;-)
Hope to see ya in November.
Yo Fren'
Ray
But did'ja find the hooker with your money??
>>I got some real bad looks the rest of the night ;-)<<
I'll bet you shonuff did get some baaaaad looks!
Be great to see you this fall. I'll keep you posted.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
While it's true that fine threads don't have as much holding power as course, they have plenty enough holding power for drywall. I use them because they're easier to drive, especially in old framing. Never thought of them as less likely to pop, but what you say makes sense. You lernt me sumpthin!~ Ted W ~
Cheap Tools! - MyToolbox.netSee my work at TedsCarpentry.com
I use 1-5/8" coarse thread. It's what the screw manufacturers recommend for wood. As for overdriving coarse thread, that's an operator error....drive another, pull the overdriven.
I always glue ceilings - OSI in the big tubes. And I do not reduce the number of fasteners just because I glued it. Belt and 'spenders.
It's what I do, others will disagree. I won't change.
Jim
I always glue ceilings - OSI in the big tubes. And I do not reduce the number of fasteners just because I glued it. Belt and 'spenders.
It's what I do, others will disagree. I won't change.
May I ask why? Are you afraid the screws will all give out and the ceiling will fall down without glue? Just curious - makes no sense to me."...craftsmanship is first & foremost an expression of the human spirit." - P. Korn
bakersfieldremodel.com
"May I ask why? Are you afraid the screws will all give out and the ceiling will fall down without glue"It's a good question. Some people would never dream of not using glue. If it was me on this particular project, I would use it because 5/8 is that much heavier and you're working directly against gravity.
Gluing sheetrock (especially ceilings)gives it added strength so that the studs or firing strips and rock become one big unit. If there's movement in the wood, the rock moves with it and you don't get those annoying little nail-screw pops, or bumps that show up in the right kind of light.
Does it need it? If it's properly screwed, absolutely not. I don't use it all the time. But if it's 5/8 rock and there is a pretty broad span, I will use it.
Screws are superior to nails and they will hold the sheetrock just fine without glue. I use glue because it makes the ceiling more stable & solid.
Gluing sheetrock (especially ceilings)gives it added strength so that the studs or firing strips and rock become one big unit. If there's movement in the wood, the rock moves with it and you don't get those annoying little nail-screw pops, or bumps that show up in the right kind of light.
I can't see it. There's always movement in the wood, to some degree. But glue holds the rock, not the nails. If they're gonna pop, they're gonna pop.
Maybe I'm just not aware - is there research out there indicating that a glued ceiling is in any way superior? Are there sheetrock manufacturers that recommend it? Its a new thought for me. Only thing I've ever glued that way is plywood subfloor."...craftsmanship is first & foremost an expression of the human spirit." - P. Korn
bakersfieldremodel.com
I also find it hard to believe that glue....which only contacts the paper backing of the drywall is helping in any way.
If the screws that secure it from it's surface aint gonna hold it....some glue on the paper backing will?
I don't think so.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Yes, there is research. My USG Gypsum Construction Handbook is currently buried in a box somewhere, and I haven't been able to put my hands on it for a few months, but it is the bible on the subject.Reducing the number of fasteners in the field will itself reduce nailpops, of course, and glue lets you do that.And we all know how soft and weak GWB is. Seasonal movement in the framing can wiggle fasteners loose. And just a little bit is all it takes to make a nailpop, or a potential one --how many times have you pushed against a wall, or screwed a cabinet to a wall, only to have a nailpop bust through the paint? This doesn't happen with glue. The glue holds the board so firmly that the fasteners can't loosen, and it fills gaps caused by either operator error or framing irregularities. Interestingly, USG says "Anything over 1/4" should be shimmed." That's a huge gap! Glue will take care of it, though. But a difference of 1/8" with no glue? Pop City if you lean against it.AitchKay
"a difference of 1/8" with no glue? Pop City if you lean against it."A pop if the SR moves that easy means that the installer was doing sloppy work anyways, IMO
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Right -- he either didn't bother to shim, or he didn't bother to glue, or both.1/8" airspace between the framing and the board is asking for pops.AitchKay
or didn't bother to use enough screws or pressure to snug the rock tot he framing
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Well, I did find the part that says glueing sheetrock to the framing members "greatly reduces the number of face nails or screws needed" (p.104). It also mentions that it reduces nail pops when used with two layers of rock, with glue between the layers.
But no connection to sagging ceiling syndrome.
As far as your statement "And we all know how soft and weak GWB is", lets keep the poli-jive out of this!
(kidding).
"...craftsmanship is first & foremost an expression of the human spirit." - P. Korn
bakersfieldremodel.com
Do be sure to post those USG handbook recomendations when you finally dig it out.
I have alot of trouble believing any benefit can be gained by glueing boards to framing members.
tried accessing the USG site for such info.....doesn't seem to be available currently.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Hey, Dude,I went back to Huck's post #120108.29, clicked on the link he gave to the Gypsum Construction Handbook, and downloaded the pdf.I'm sure there's more in there, but the first index entry I tried led me to this: "Advantages of attachment with adhesives are:
1. Reduces up to 75% of the number of fasteners used, and consequent
problems.
2. Stronger than conventional nail application—up to 100% more tensile
strength, up to 50% more shear strength.
3. Unaffected by moisture, high or low temperature.
4. Fewer loose panels caused by improper fastening.
5. Bridges minor framing irregularities.
Will not stain or bleed through most finishes."And as I said earlier, seasonal movement in the framing can wiggle fasteners loose. You guys out East probably don’t have to worry about that as much, since you use strapping. I’ve always like the idea of strapping from the standpoint of a flat ceiling, and not screwing to a wet 2x12 that's going to shrink and twist as much as it possibly can.But I’ve never liked the way strapping compromises the firestopping, letting a fire spread throughout an entire floor system.So no strapping for me, unless I block in between straps.And yes, if every single fastener is perfectly set, as Piffin assumes, with the board squeezed absolutely tight to the framing at every single fastener, you might not need glue. But in the real world (see #4 & #5 above), I find that glue helps, and I'll continue to use it.AitchKay
I've never glued a SR ceiling, tho I did try it on a few walls long ago. From what I was reading back then the main reason was to be able to use fewer screws. but I still had to use as many screws to suck things back to the studs over insulation anyways.That wavy ceiling had to be 3/8" or 1/2" and dampness. Never seen it with 5/8" which is what belongs on ceilings anyways.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"I've never glued a SR ceiling"Well I wouldn't start now at this stage of the game if I were you. No tellin' what might happen.I'm not a purist but I do believe in the saying, "if it ain't broke..."
>>Are you afraid the screws will all give out and the ceiling will fall down without glue?<<
Not afraid it will fall down, however, over time, the DW can sag between fasteners / joists. This sagging produces a wavy ceiling. Glue seems to eliminate / vastly reduce future sagging.
This is based on personal observation in many different local houses.
Everytime I have opened a ceiling in a house with those wavy ceilings, they were never glued.
Coversely, when opening a nice flat ceiling, I frequently encounter glue, not always, but frequently. Yes, I cuss at it, but it seems to be worth it.
DE tends to be a very humid state in the summer, and this is probably a contributing factor to the observed sagging. Perhaps with more homes being built with A/C this is not a factor any longer..... if the HO keeps the A/C running.
Too old to change on this one.......
Jim Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Must be a regional thing. Can't begin to count how many houses I've been in / worked on in 30 years in the industry in So. Calif., haven't run across one of those wavy ceilings due to unglued sheetrock yet.
I have only seen wavy ceilings a few times - caused by moisture damage due to roof or plumbing leaks. Was glad the rock wasn't glued when I replaced it."...craftsmanship is first & foremost an expression of the human spirit." - P. Korn
bakersfieldremodel.com
I'd think it would be better to glue ceilings in earthquake country.
I'd think it would be better to glue ceilings in earthquake country.
And yet surprisingly we haven't had any issues with unglued ceilings. I did a lot of wall and ceiling repairs following the Northridge Earthquake - not one ceiling that fell due to being unglued. Mostly cracks in the old plaster walls.
I can't think of any reason I would ever glue sheetrock. Because I'm a remodeler, so I know sometimes it has to be replaced.
Now I have a new worry - bidding to replace sheetrock and finding out it was glued! Guess I better add a clause to my contracts - If sheetock has been glued, price will increase accordingly."...craftsmanship is first & foremost an expression of the human spirit." - P. Korn
bakersfieldremodel.com
>>....in So. Calif.... seen wavy ceilings a few times.....caused by moisture.... <<
Average summer humidity level in So. CA? I don't know, but you folks always seem to be having those brush fires though, so I suspect it is not very high.
Average summer humidity level in DE is ~60%; 80 - 90%% is not at all uncommon.
Might make a difference......
Still too old to change on this one.....
Jim Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
USG drywall mfg's mention "ceiling sag" in their Gypsum Construction Handbook
No mention of glueing sheetrock to framing members as either cause or remedy (see pages 353 and 381)."...craftsmanship is first & foremost an expression of the human spirit." - P. Korn
bakersfieldremodel.com
the new fad seems to be adhesive and an 18ga...
guess the pins hold the rock till the glue sets...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
That is to replace the old fad, skinny glue bead with 3 nails across the field?
I guess it might have worked if the DW was actually in contact with the glue along its full length - which it never was......
I should not complain, I have made good money replacing those ceilings.
JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
found that when I pulled on a sheet's end to open a bay and the entier 12' sheet popped off the wall.... intact...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
>> the entier 12' sheet popped off the wall.... intact...<<
Went to NO,LA with a church group in Nov. '06 -- we were in the business of guttting (excuse me, "deconstructing") houses flooded by Katrina. Tyvek suits, good respirators.... I'll never forget the smell.
Over the course of the week we completed 3 different houses.
All week the group had been punching holes and taking whatever chunk they could get, putting pieces in a wheel barrow and carting to the curb.
The last house was essentially a tract house in East New Orleans, and the only one with drywall throughout.
On this house, I showed them how to buddy up with another person, open the wall at a seam - get behind the DW and pop the whole 12' sheet off. I spent the first 2 hours on that job, yelling through a respirator --- "Don't yank, just shake it and the whole sheet will come off!"
By 9:30 or so everybody had the technique - ranch, 4 bedroom, 2-1/2 bath, LR, DR, huge family room, nice kitchen, DW 2 car garage --gutted to studs by 12:00 with all debris at the curb for pick up - DW, insulation, carpet, appliances + other miscellaneous schmutz.
Works better when the DW has been underwater for about 2 weeks, then allowed to dry out for 14 months or so.....
No, it was not glued.
Jim Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
the intention was to snap off one bay's worth of DW...
there were traces of glue on the studs and virtually none on the rock..............
that sheet poping off the wall sure opened several cans of worms....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
I know what you are talking about.
Redid a fellows 25 yo garage ceiling that was the same way.
Skinny / non existent glue beads on the underside of joists, 3 nails across the field. Huge bows in the 1/2" DW, easy to tell where the fasteners were.
Many of the glue beads had never been compressed still nice and round on the underside of the joists.
Made for a very easy demo.......but that's what I was trying to do!
JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
"sure opened several cans of worms...."Enough for a week's worth of fishing?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
months...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
Return both boxes of screws, and the liquid nails.
Use 1 5/8" coarse thread....double screw the field....and forget the adhesive.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
I, too, use JTC1's knife test after hanging -- only way to go.
As for screw type, I believe the USG guidelines give a green light to 1 1/4" screws for 5/8” GWB. Also a green light to 1 5/8” nails.
USG also points out that longer fasteners run the risk of more nail-pops, when the outside of the wood shrinks towards the center, towards the points of the fasteners, leaving the heads floating.
So 2" is too long for new framing, but if it’s not brand-new framing, if there are some vestiges of old #### still adhered to the joists, I’d definitely bump it up a length from the recommended 1 1/4".
My preferred screw would be a 1 5/8” coarse, but... picky, picky. You’ll be fine with 1 5/8” fine. Especially since they are way better than 1 5/8” nails! And in this case, you'd also be fine with 2" coarse.
What a lucky guy! Take your pick!
And I don’t know what some of these guys are talking about! -- Always glue! Always glue! Always glue! It’s not the early 70s anymore. No 8-tracks! No bell-bottoms! No dry-hanging of GWB!
You’d have to be stupid!
But I love the argument that if you screw up, it's easier to fix it if you don't use glue: sounds like another good reason for dirt-floored garages -- you don't have to bust up all of that concrete when you screw up. I'll have to remember to tell my customers this money-saving tip!
BTW, frame your walls with screws, never glue down subfloors.. let's see how far we can take this... how about hot-melt for three-tab shingles?
AitchKay
Since the wood is old and dry, and very hard, the fine thread will hold just fine. New green soft wood might cause some worry, but not the stuff you are driving into.
Tu stultus es
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Look, just send me to my drawer. This whole talking-to-you thing is like double punishment.
Coarse or fine thread, either will be alright.
Stay with the 1 5/8" length in either, The NEC requires penetrations through joist or studs to be a minimum of 1 1/4" fro the face of the stud/joist or a nailing plate must be used to protect the wire from penetration by nails or screws.
If you use the 2" screws you need to inspect the wiring penetrations and protect all those that are less than 1 5/8 to 1 3/4" from the face of the joist/stud.