What wood species would be best for wood trim with a transparent stain?
I would like something widely available, competitively priced, relatively hard and with a pretty stain-finished look. We typically specify red or white oak, or poplar, and those are OK, but what else is out there?
This is going to be floor base, door casing and various other standard trim items.
Thanks in advance!
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Replies
"It depends on the situation..."
What style of trim are you using? what's available in your region?
maple
birch
cherry
That's exactly what I'm wondering...and I don't know what is available in the area. I kind of figured in this day and age that ANYTHING would be available...perhaps at a price it is. So are you saying that availability is one of the biggest factors in price? That will give me a starting point.
Perhaps the best option is to call up the lumberyards and see what IS available locally. We're talking about stock profiles, nothing custom (although I know of several shops that can mill a custom shape -- obviously for a price too).
Assuming availability is equal, what is your (and others) opionion on a nice looking, relatively hard, economical wood trim species for transparent finish? What have folks been using recently that fits the bill, for whatever reason.
Let me be a little clearer: I'm not looking for empirical data as much as simple advice on what has been the preference of individuals in the market recently.
TIA."It depends on the situation..."
In my area, here in central Iowa I can get most common trim profiles in oak, poplar and maple. Some of the larger profiles we can get in cherry. Many other species can be special ordered or made right at our lumber yard for a slight upcharge. We aren't talking big boxes here but a full service lumber yardI think every area is somewhat different depends on what's selling. For instance a few years a go most trim here was mostly oak, mahogany and fir. Now mahogany trim is a special orderIMO maple with a clear finish is a good look. It's when you start staining maple that it takes some work
Barry E-Remodeler
My guess is that calling lumberyards is the best way to start. You should be able to get maple relatively easy. If you are going with stock profile, then you don't have to pay to get a knife made. Then you're paying for the stock and shop time to make it.
As far as species, maple and cherry are going to be somewhat close in price, and are popular for other things (not necessarily for int. trim). Poplar is cheap and readily available most anywhere (I think), but doesn't meet the other criteria so well. You're obviously gonna pay for more exotic-ish material like mohogany etc.
I'm not sure if this is what you were looking for, but I hope it helps.
BTW - What's the reason for the deviation? Just wondering...
No Coffee No Workee!
Yeah, it was.
I am an architect and helping my co-worker on specifying wood trim species for a renovation / addition we are designing. We're looking at differing varieties of wood species for door casing, wood base and some other trim components. I'm just kind of tired of using poplar and / or oak all the time. I'm wondering what other species are out there that people are using for trim, recognizing all the while that a lot of times less fancy wood is used and stained to appear to be a different species.
I also often wonder what species were used in the 1920s, because this particular building is also a remodel, and we'll be trying to match the existing. I realize that we can't get that old stuff today, and that it probably varied greatly from place to place -- it's just a thought I occasionally have about they way things used to be : )
Clearly, if you go to Lowes or Menards and buy trim, your options are very limited. Short of ordering a special profile in a special wood species, I'm just wondering what's out there.
I don't know what you mean by your "deviation" question."It depends on the situation..."
wood varieties vary tremendously but they still all pretty much stain pretty similar.. The trick isn't what wood to use. Rather the trick is to make the trim interesting. extremely wide trim has a unique look all of it's own and need not be an expensive wood.. simply a build up of several standard pieces of trim used in a unique way.. Go for a theme in different rooms.. for example take old barn boards and do one room a western flavor or another room a Victorian flavor.. if the layout is such that that would be offensive look at a unified theme of standard stuff done with a unique method.
Use two differant woods for contrast.. say pine and redwood, or maple and black walnut..
a handful of router bits and a little imagination and great things can be achieved..
Now this is, in fact, right up there with one of the best comments of this thread. I think there is a lot of creative energy in what you just said, and sometimes all it takes is a nudge in that direction by someone who has tried those kinds of nuances to make a run of the mill detail something to really celebrate.
I'm not saying I can do that this time, but I like the way you're thinking.
"It depends on the situation..."
Ditto what Frenchy said. I used the contrasting wood theme for trim in my own house. Don't have many pics on this PC, but this one shows the 1/2" contrasting band inlet into my base -- this one's walnut in cherry base. I used walnut in red oak in another room on this floor. I later installed matching walnut qtr round against the floor. I made up "crown" molding out of the same contrasting woods. Its the detailing that gets the "wows".
View Image
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Found another "in progress" pic. Shows the walnut/cherry door headers and more of the base.
View Image
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
"wood varieties vary tremendously but they still all pretty much stain pretty similar." Couldn't disagree more. In my experience at least there is a huge difference in how Maple that takes a stain poorly (unless pretreated in some manner) vs. something like say Poplar or Alder which will take stains considerably easier with less prep. Even among pieces of the same species I've found density and tightness of growth rings plays a significant role in stain absorption.
Ted, I was going for a general sweeping statement rather than detailed how to, plus I wasn't talking at all about the nuances of staining but rather a overall look of things..
I realized I was out on a limb because to say that say butternut is the same as say oak is too bold a statement, but rather that when stained most woods can wind up pretty much the same color.. An example is pine.. you stain it with a black walnut stain and it does somewhat have to color of balck walnut..
However nobody would ever confuse black walnut stained pine with the real thing.. Because black walnut isn't a color so much as a multitude of colors , purple ,white,green, black, and yes even dark brown.
Now I realize that makes me a wood elitist whereby I discourage staining wood because I believe the wood itself is too great to be dimmed by the use of artificail colorants.
This past spring I trimmed out an addition using black walnut. It was pricey, but boy did it look nice. I built transom windows, a desk, and entertainment center with it as well as all the doors. The addition was 5K sq. ft.The painters (this was a crew of artists their work was that good) came through using a gel stain and finished the walnut with several coats of oil based urethane (satin). The color variation was tempered and looked uniform throughout the house. The hardest part was working around sap wool since we were milling it ourselves.I think we paid 4 bucks a board ft.--
James Kidd
http://www.carpenterconfidential.com
The wood they used in the 20's was either pine or oak. If it is stained, my guess is it's oak (bungalow? craftsman style? arts and crafts? all oak, 'specially A&C).
The devation question meant...Why are you deviating from Oak (the material you said you usually use), but you've answered that here. I don't care, really. I was just curious.
Mostly, folks are still just using pine and oak and poplar (my experience) for the most part. I have special ordered maple and cherry for casing a sink window in a kitchen to match the cabinets, but otherwise, standards.
I am also noticing that people are painting their trim more often these days. I personally like it that way, but if you're matching, you should get someone over there that can tell you what species of wood is there. I will be VERY surprised if it is not oak or pine.
No Coffee No Workee!
Edited 11/24/2008 6:38 pm ET by Jed42
Douglas-fir, Southern Yellow Pine, and quartersawn White Oak all sound like the 1920's to me.
I'm rather fond of Cherry left natural. It seems a crime to stain it. Maple left natural ages nicely too. Pine is for painting and nothing else, IMO.I've seen a lot of Birch in houses from the 20's. Looks a lot like maple, but distinctly different. It's readily available in Minneapolis. Don't know about indiana. I've also seen a fair amount of Chestnut from around the turn of the century, but more out east where I am now. Don't know as I've ever seen it in the midwest. Doesn't matter though, 'cause you can't get it anyway. PEople often mistake chestnut for oak. Oak bores me to death.Steve
I restored a walnut and chestnut pipe organ circa 1850, and when we expanded it, I used ash to simulate the chestnut. Only a true wood head could tell the difference after finishing.
With the Ash borer killing so many trees, it is cheap and readily available. Good looking wood, IMO.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
>>I used ash to simulate the chestnut.<<I can see where that would work well. Same type of grain--not as open as oak.
Heres two scanned pics, it was before I went digital.
View Image
At such a big scale ( notice the key board and bench) it all blends in well.
View Image
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
I don't think it is oak...that's a pretty easy grain to know. Even if you're off, the oak-type grain is still unique enough to know that it's something more special than your typical pine.
Here are a few pics of the existing wood trim and finish treatment. For the new addition to this building, in the common spaces for the unit entrances, we're going to have stained wood trim to kind of match the existing. I'm not familiar at all with what used to be done to finish old wood like this in the picture. The stuff I've had experience with has always had what seems like a stain, then a coat of something slightly glossy -- enough to not peel off, but definitely a satin finish that wears through with a sander or enough elbow grease. Not your poly of today, for sure.
Heck, I'll throw in a sketchup model of the proposed projec tfor your enjoyment as well."It depends on the situation..."
I'd be betting that is chestnut trim. Hard to tell from th pics, but that sure looks like what I've run across that looks eerily similar.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
Looks like birch stained dark. See a lot of that from that era. Sphere thinks chestnut. I can't see the grain closely enough to tell, but if it is rather grainless, sort of like poplar or maple, but grainier with a hint of darkish speckling it's probably birch. If it looks like oak or ash, but not really, it's probably chestnut.Edited 11/25/2008 1:07 pm by mmoogie
Edited 11/25/2008 1:10 pm by mmoogie
lindenboy -
From your photo that looks like fir trim and the two panel doors fir stile and rail with fir plywood panels.
Standard stain and varnish finish.
Jeff (fellow architect)
Edited 11/28/2008 1:17 am ET by Jeff_Clarke
The finish is called shellac!
I know I've been touting shellac for a long time but once you use it you will never again go back to poly or varnish or anything else.
Shellac is great, simple for even a lousy painter like me to get flawless finish and really, really, fast!(2 hours later you're completely done and there is no more odor)
Ask me and I'll share my technique with you to do a flawless finish.
It likely will save a great deal of time as well because unless you want to change color you don't need to stain. the shellac alone will cause the wood to simply glow..
The finest furniture was done with shellac and all fine antiques use shellac to bring out the natural beauty of wood..
Plus it's a tough durable finish that is so easily repaired that you will be tempted to do the repair when you have guests over to watch you.. (remember to say abra-cadabra if little children are present.. <grin>)
Well he can test you comments by rubbing with denatured alcohol right? If it comes off it was shellac, if no effect it's varnish.
Jeff
How about Beech?
I also hate to stain wood if possible. Shellac is great you can use Extra Blonde to Ruby and yes it's fast and relatively easy to apply if you get used to it. Less chance of dust contamination.
I'm a little lost on poplar as a trim as it is to soft, application intended?
A table saw and a few router bits you can run trim faster than you think and you must keep in mind " Understated Conservative " style.
I don't have any pics but one job it was 3 1/2 inch wide birch with a chamfer on the top of the base boards and double on the casings. I mitered the baseboard / casing at the bottem of the doors and it looked so sleek. took a little fussing but sure quieted down the "know it all" daughter
Well OP's comment was:"I also often wonder what species were used in the 1920s, because this particular building is also a remodel, and we'll be trying to match the existing."20's-30's typical finish for the kind of work in the photo would be douglas fir stile-and-rail doors, recessed plywood panel (fir plywood being a relatively 'newfangled' product) and fir trim - stained fairly dark reddish-brown as indicated and varnished.
You may not realize it, but doug fir was so prevalent that the industry-wide organization known today as the APA (American Plywood Association) was first known as the Douglas Fir Plywood Association. They actually first concentrated on door panels as a product. Think about it - with fir plywood panels, doesn't it make sense to fabricate the stiles and rails - and then the trim - from the same material?
Here's what it would look like stripped (example here was painted):View Image
lindenboy - you ought to be able to identify from this photo, even with stain/varnish.
Jeff
Edited 11/28/2008 6:55 pm ET by Jeff_Clarke
If you're trying to match the existing trim, you need to know what it is. If the house is a Craftsman style, it may have been trimmed out with white oak which was pretty inexpensive................ in those days. - lolAre you locked into using a transparent stain? They can be a real hassle on most of the more common (i.e. economical) species since they can blotch badly. I recently used some Minwax, water based stain (sprayed, not brushed on) on some common #2 pine and was amazed at how well it went on. It took a while to get my spray rig adjusted right, but when I did, it went on very evenly with no blotching.
we uns out west here might opt for e.g. vertical grain fir. Locally grown, etc. etc. Start w/ availabiliity ... if price is no issue, let me know, I'll ship you some fir!
You've named the most popular wood trim is made of.. anything more than that and suddenly you are getting into custom trim which is going to be massively more expensive than production trim..
Now you could go wild and do something completely differant. However most wood is tanish colored some lighter some darker. so don't expect the wood to do something spectacular. paint or colored staines will at best alter the look. why not go way outside the box here?
Timberframe a room. Now before you get concerned you could likely do it cheaper than running trim (assuming this is a DIY) and not much more expensive if others will do it for you.. For about what you can buy trim for you can buy timbers for.. an 8 1/2 foot long timber that is 9"x7" will cost $20 at a local sawmill. use one as a bottom plate laid down, one as a vertical post and one as a top plate and you can have enough wood for a 10 foot high ceiling for only $60. granted it's faux timberframe without the need for precision joinery work but you have to admit it would be differant wouldn't it? Look at 85891.1 and scroll through the pictures for what I'm talking about..
Just for information you could do a room that's 18 x18 for less than $400.00 and some time.. If you got really silly with the timberwork you could still do it well under a grand.
No offense, but was the timberframe ramble something related to this thread? I got lost there."It depends on the situation..."
Frenchy has a few hobby horse topics. Give him anything that looks remotely like an excuse, and away he goes.Uh, how about linden wood? Just kidding. . .
Linden is actually Basswood, and makes nice millwork (though not best for base and casing, as it is rather soft). It is a good choice for crown, paint grade.
Well, I'll be.
lindenboy,
We use alot of cypress and heart pine. Cypress can be growback or sinker. Heart pine is from old beams and can be stunning.
KK
Not all woods stain well. In my experience I've had better results with dyes as opposed to stains. My thought has always been if you want it to look like walnut use walnut. No sense in making oak the color of walnut because it'll still be oak, only darker.
Having said that there is a universe of choices out there. My suggestion for you would be to visit a hardwood lumber supplier or an architectural millwork wholesaler. A good wholesaler will have just about all the popular domestic species on hand or will be able to get it for you.
Edited 11/25/2008 1:20 pm ET by ted
In my somewhat limited experience cherry and maple trim is much more consistent than say walnut and is less likely to give the finishers fits.
If it's available, try cutting a piece of the old trim and smell it, most species have their own distinct odor.
In many of the circa 1900 brownstones I've worked in, the stained trim was perfectly clear, old growth pine.
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.
- Fyodor Dostoyevski
Check floridacypress.com. Cypress comes with a warning like hickory that there are mineral streaking marks. May be light blonde or dark chocolate. I like it, but you have to expect some variations and isn't that what wood is all about. You can specify CVG (clear vertical grain). They will custom cut.
I made all my own trim with it, but I mostly used trees from my own property and those that had fallen in the St. Johns.