I just started on a white oak spiral stairway. The first picture shows a stack of cloned treads waiting to have their edges radiused. The other pictures show the grain meeting in a v-pattern keeping the front and back edges straight grain.
The 10 inch column is just getting mortised to receive the tread supports you can see in one pile.
Stan
This compact detatched accessory dwelling has an efficient layout with a vaulted ceiling that enhances the sense of space.
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Replies
Cool! What kinda jig do ya use to cut those Beauties? You know, getting the "V" and the proper taper. Are those treads about 2" thick?
Quality, Craftsmanship, Detail
Hook: The treads are 1.25 inches thick. My jigs would be laughed at if I posted pictures.
Stan
I think I see a plywood pattern in the background of one of the pics. Is that it?
Did you use a pattern bit and a router to get them all to be clones of one another?
Gene: I have been "found" out. That chunk of cdx is my pattern for cloning my treads. But.....you know what? I dont know of a more accurate way or a cheaper way to do it. Sure...a cnc router could do it....but I am a hands on type and way too small of an operator. The aret of making something by hand is slowly being taken over by cnc machines. I refuse to give in and should get to retirement this way.
As much as I'm always impressed by your work, I'm equally impressed by the way you do things, without resorting to turning your shop into a woodworking machine shop. Figuring out how to do things without the benefit of the expensive tool is a real skill.
I don'tknow ,Stan , you got paint on them walls now fancy machines can't be far off.
Cool stair.
stan...
nice work as always... gotta couple questions..
how long have you been in the stair business?
and do you remember how to build a straight stair case... ha ha..
keep up the great work, its inspiring to a lot of us around here..
oak
Stan, it is neat to see them each step of the way (good pun). Some time you should have someone take pics of you actually working on each stage of a staircase (from lumber pile to finished staircase). Would make for a great series.
Are those treads glued up from 4 pieces/ea? If so, do you add anything to them (biscuit/etc) or just edge glue them?
Orbit sander, or stationary sander (like a drum sander) ?
I assume you do the straight edges on the table saw. What do you cut the radiuses with (bandsaw, jigsaw, router)?
jt8
Opportunity doesn't knock. You knock, opportunity answers. -- American Proverb
John: I just use a 3/8 roundover bit for all the edges. All basic as can be.
The treads are glued up from 4-5 rips...then I rerip the whole tread and glue these v grain halves back together. I do not use any biscuits....the joint will break down the grain everytime.
I scrape the treads then random orbit sand them. The radiuses are cut with a plywood template that was cut out with a trammel jig.
Here are some pictures of the column with the mortises laid out and rough cut. You can see my router jig and router getting ready to mortise these holes for the tread supports. These tread supports will go clear through the column with a 2.25 inche x 3.5 inch rounded over tenon projecting out the back side 3/4 of an inch. Its a cool design I am cloning from a FHB article years ago.
Stan
Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. Each step of the way. Really neat to see the puzzle go together.
Let me see if this thing will accept a Flash attachment.
[edit] Cool, it worked on mine anyway. I think I'm missing a 'step' though. You're smoothing out your motises prior to attaching the treads?
jt8
Opportunity doesn't knock. You knock, opportunity answers. -- American Proverb
Edited 3/24/2005 2:52 pm ET by JohnT8
Great series Stan. Where do you get the columns? Are they off the shelf or custom made. I'd love to build a set myself but don't know where to get the column.Tom
Douglasville, GA
Tom: I have glued the columns up in my shop....but its far easier just to order them out. These came from Pacific columns.
Here are some more pictures of it going together. What pictures I post each day are what I did that day.
Stan
Stan
I'm always amazed at the accuracy in which you get those mortises placed.
I don't think a CNC could get it any closer.
Whats that thing weigh just as it is? Then you go adding the treads and I cant believe that you can manhandle the thing around the shop.
Doug
Doug: I can barely pick that column up. I will completely assemble it in my room..then take it all apart for the jobsite setup.
I will post some pictures tonight what I assembled today.
Stan
Had a good day in the shop. I assembled and fit all the tread/tread tenons together and made the top landing.
This is the top landing. I routed out a mortise to slip over the column. This landing is 1.5 inches thick..and is rabbeted on the edges where it sits on the second floor.
Edited 3/25/2005 5:10 pm ET by Stan Foster
Stan:
I agree w/Doug. How do you get the mortises to appear so clean. Looks like your router jig get you most of the way there but do you just use a clean/sharp chisel from there?
Bob
Reply to a post by Stan, that way he will see the question and we will both know!
Doug
Bob: Thanks for the moral boost...but the stuff I do is just basic techniques...nothing fancy....and with scraps for jigs.
My tread supports are all milled at the same time...each step identical to keep each one the same thickness...width and height.
I then simply surround the profile with hardwood....boxing it in so to speak. This is the jig for my bearing guided router bit.
My jig is tight...my bit is always brand new. I put two bearings on my router bit.
I run in my jig on some scrap...making that ever so tiny track that the bearings will make in the hardwood. This is my clearance for the tenons.
There always is a rogue routing that has to be filed..sanded..or whatever it takes to get the tenon nice.
You do not want these tenons so tight you have to beat them in with a hammer...because these will swell and put too much stress on the column. A nice sliding fit is just right.
The trick is getting the back mortise where the small tenon exits the column exactly 180 degrees and in exact alignment with front mortise. If its off just a half degree...you have to back chisel the mortise. I had two that fought me on this column.
Also..I actually make the back mortise 1/32 of an inch lower so that when the tenon is put through the column and loaded up...the tread will be level. If the tenon is milled exactly level...then the tread will be slightly lower on the outer end.
It took me several of these spirals to get to the point that most of the mortises are in line.
The trick is to use a paper template around the circumference and being very particular and laying out the 180 point across the column.
There is a lot more to this...but believe me...its just very basic layout procedures...and careful routing techniques.
I do all my mortises with cdx plywood scraps for my jigs. Nothing fancy...and very crued looking.
I take pride in what such ugly jigs accomplish.
Stan
Edited 3/26/2005 11:08 pm ET by Stan Foster
Stan
Thanks. Help me understand something. I look at your early pictures and the mortices are rough cut and i can see the final outline (in pencil?) that you want. In later pictures those same mortices are perfectly smoothed and finished. What did you do between those two steps?
Also, to get those smaller tenons to fit so nicely did you round them over (the corners not the face) to match the same radius of the router bit...so that when you morticed out the hole (which will leave round corners) the corners matched?
to be honest, i'm just kind of amazed at your work. I've always been a big fan of doors and stairs. Wanted to have a nice flying staircase in my house one day but i'm getting ready to build my last house (i hope) and it's not in the plans :).
Bob: If you look at some of the earlier pictures...you can see my mortising guide jig and the router. The router has a 3/4 inch diameter bit with a flush cutting bearing. I use a 3/8 inch radius roundover bit on the tenons.
This 3/8 radius roundover bit perfectly matches the 3/4 inch diameter mortising bit. Of course...the 3/4 inch diameter is 3/8 inch radius...and thus a good match.
Stan
Got it, thanks.
Today I put the top landing in place. I am attaching the newels...indexing the landing to the column. This way it will be one big kit and all I have to do is reassemble it on site. It will go real fast then.
I am ready to do the curved handrail next.
Stan
Stan,How are the tread supports fastened to the column when you do your final assembly?
Jon Blakemore
Jon: I drill a one inch hole with a forstner bit just under the protruding tenon. These holes are about 5/8 inch deep. Deep enough for the head of a 3/8 inch lag and a wood plug. The lags are at an angle and pull the tread up tight to the column.
Stan
Stan, what fabulous work!
How do you do the circular shoulder cuts adjacent the tenons of the tread bearers? Those faces snug right up flush to the column, and I wonder what your setup is.
Very good on the slide show! Do more!!!!!
Blue, I had really wanted to do a Flash on that double spiral stair he was working on, but I didn't have the right sequence of photos. I think the sequence slide shows with the most impact are when you see it from the same angle as the project develops. Stan's work has a lot of "wow" factor and really lends itself to slide shows.
You can tell by all those folks asking technique questions, that we need to get him on video tape going over the high points of the staircase. Maybe we should give his local PBS station a call and see if they can handle it :) "WILL"... channel 12 probably. They can do a whole series on Stans stairs. Multiple episodes on the more complex stairs.
jt8
Opportunity doesn't knock. You knock, opportunity answers. -- American Proverb
Yes, yes, yes to everything! He's so amazing on those stairs with the basic tools like we all have! Keep me posted if anything's new about the show!
Guys: Please...I am getting over rated here. I am just a small shop ...and like to take pictures and share a little.
I had a guy from a big stair company stop by and he was literally laughing at my lack of equipment. He kind of pissed me off with his arrogance when he said his CNC machine could cut out my stringers in no time. He thought I was doing everything the hard way. Everything I took a week to do...he could do in one morning.
Oh well......
Stan
I am getting ready to glue up a 1.5 inch x 4 inch x 16 foot white oak handrail. It will have 8 3/16 inch laminates.
I was going to glue it up tomorrow....but I have another job to finish the next few days.
Stan
Stan
You could post EVERY days work and I (and many others) would look at it every day!
Fantastic work.
Joan
Hey Stan, nice work. I was wondering what you do with all those off-cuts ? I noticed a trash barrel in one of your first pix in these series of photos that was jambed full of thick white oak scraps.
I have a small cabinet/ woodworking shop and usaully give mine away to my brother who has a woodburner but there are times and types that he can't use.
Just wondering, great work.
Jaxstraw: I give away a lot of my good scraps....but plead guilty to burning a lot as well.
I would be swimming in the stuff otherwise.
Stan
I bet his stairs lack that certain something that makes us all want to expand our houses with addition that needs a curved stair and a spiral.
Don't sell yourself short. You are a great crafstman and an inspiration to the regulars here. Next time this guy disparages your work methods, tell him to post that to our faces!...that's not a mistake, it's rustic
Any CNC machine owners who build stairs don't have that kind of pride that you have built from your own hands! It takes a special kind of love and alot of feelings in building it. Anytime I wanted a stairs made of hardwoods, I would ask you for that beautiful hand built one than those from a guy who uses the cnc or a mass made. Stan, I hope others like me didn't mean to scare you off the whole product that we all love to see.
And to those CNC stair builders, I have nothing against them. They do make great works too. I haven't see one made by those CNC yet. I'm a CNC machinist programer and know what they can do. I have made a lot of fun stuff on it but doing the same thing at home with my hands, it takes a lot of skills.
Blue: Let me word my feelings a little better. I have great respect and admiration for the skills necessary to set up and execute projects done by a CNC machine. That is a skill and an art in itself......just like working with wood.
There are even more purists who would have nothing to do with what I do with my power tools. Hmmm...a router? we use hand planes. So...I guess its where one is coming from.
Stan
There are even more purists who would have nothing to do with what I do with my power tools. Hmmm...a router? we use hand planes. So...I guess its where one is coming from.
Those are the guys in the wide brimmed, black hats down the road.
Stan, sounds like you've got everything you need. No reason to change. By the by, that last group of pics looked like a big squirrel cage ;)
I'd rather have a gyro than a CNC.
jt8
Opportunity doesn't knock. You knock, opportunity answers. -- American Proverb
Edited 3/30/2005 11:44 pm ET by JohnT8
John: You dont know how correct you are on the gyro. My tool overhead is so minimal that the gyro could fit right in....not on the shelf....<G>
Stan
Stan , I have seen some of those CNC stairs . Everything is speed grab the money and run . The treads do not have any thought as to grain orientation other than run it to look like it runs the length. There is no thought to matching color ,cathedrals or bookings like you do.
The other thing is ,could he actualy cut it by hand or with a router himself. He probablely does not even run the CNC just a salesman . I have found that most people that laugh at someones tools/lack there of ,usualy are covering for there inabilaties.
Rather than be POed challenge him to the bottom line. How much did it cost to save four days of work? And then what would you do with them four days? You would have to fly that gyro and then it would get boring and you would have to come up with another hobby. That would cost even more ,there goes your retirement. Better do as you are ,Making the BEST stairs in Illinois .
Don: You are right....someone that makes fun is just showing me their own insecurities.
Thanks for the comments....but I have seen some awesome stairsway built by others that make me feel insecure myself.
Stan
Not to worry , no matter how good you are someone will be better. The thing is you do your best and then some . You can strive to be better , the machine only does its best the first time after that it starts to wear . With the wear comes slop and eventualy it can't do a good job.
Keep up the excellent work Stan...
You da man!!!
If that guy with the CNC could produce what you do why aint you out of bizness???
I tell ya why!
cause he can't
all that time he saves, get eaten up every time one of his low wage installers or measurers gets something wrong and , not understanding the process, they have to fudge or start over!
Craftsmanship can't be replaced by a machine no matter how many 10's of 1000's you pay for it.
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