I know there are plenty of master carpenters here, but who can tell me when that is an appropriate term, what do you think qualifies? and should any of us actually use the term to apply to ourselves? Would you use it as a marketing thing? Seriously, I want to know what you think about the term….
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Well Kerp..........
Here's how I see it.
In a round about way.
In '93 I was "whereas'd" by our local schoolboard. On the plaque it called me a Master Planner in spearheading the remodel of formerly unused space into a couple much needed classrooms................a volunteer project I opened my big mouth for.
Then maybe 10 yrs later, the newspaper took the Master part and tacked it onto Carpenter when I completed another volunteer project for a children's court safety net organization.
I've been introduced on jobs as the clients "master" on more than one occasion.
I hope when they lower me into the ground it's mentioned.
But, I'm just a dumb carpenter.
I know alot.
I've done alot.
But a master carpenter, no way. I can't do many things. Not that I "can't" per se, but more that I've not been asked often enough. I find it easier, better and more cost efficient to hire those with talents that far exceed mine.
Some people can bull shit their way into Master status.
Not me, I'm too honest.
But yeah, it'd be nice to be thought of as pretty close in that last writeup in the paper.
well said, sir, well said...
I just remember sitting next to this kid at a bar who handed me his card which said so and so, master carpenter. Don't think he'd even broken the plane of 30 yet. I've been introduced as such, but find it embarassing when in the company of fellow, really really good carpenters. Yes, would be nice to be remembered that way. Perhaps the tombstone could read: master carpenter who'd still rather be here than San Jose. ;)
Thanks.
I think you realize like I do, the more you know, the more you don't know.
Maybe he'll get that vision one of these days.
BTW
Calvin is a master carpenter....jes saying.
Lawrence
no way.
Good bull shit 'er yes.
Master?
still trying.
I suspect that those who truly are, would never refer to themselves as such.
And as to a related term: I've long had an inward chuckle at those who introduce a young employee as their apprentice. For the implication that having an apprentice must mean there is a master.
yes, indeed.
That seems to me to be the consensus. 'nuff said.
You can find many cases of states or cities requiring licenses of master plumbers, master electricians, and so forth. You should use the term "master carpenter" in the same sense. In many instances, statutes or ordinances required licenses of both journeyman plumbers and master plumbers. A journeyman plumber is considered a completely different occupation than a master plumber. Journeyman electrician is considered a different occupation than master electrician. The same holds true for master carpenters and journeyman carpenters. I will give you an example. In a case called City of Shreveport v. Bayse et al., 166 La. 689, 117 So. 775, two defendants were convicted of supervising electrical work without first qualifying as master electricians. If your state has a contractor licensing law, you can bet that it will require the person, firm, or corporation making the application to designate in the application who the supervisor will be and that such supervisor is required to take an examination. That has been the standard process for better than 80 years. Some states or cities require mechanics to be licensed. These are always referred to as journeyman licensing. Consider the following: In a civil law suit we do not call the parties combatants. There are plaintiffs and defendants. Similarly, if a property owner directly employs a plumber to perform labor, then the laborer is known in the law as a mechanic (ever heard of mechanics' liens?). The property owner is then the plumbing contractor. Or we can use the terms "journeyman plumber" for the mechanic and "master plumber" for the contractor. Or we can use the terms "laborer" and "supervisor" to designate the distinction. A hired plumbing contractor is an agent of the property owner. He has a contract to procure labor and materials for plumbing.
I'm thinking.........
I remember a response similar to the one you just gave, somewhere in the past.
I think I was equally cornfused after reading it.
In this instance, how does it pertain to carpenters? Is it the "law" in any state or municipality that there are grades of carpentry?
I know there are apprentice and journeyman carpenters and I do know that in commercial, the supervisor of which you speak might be called the project manager. But, outside of union steward, is there another title, like a supervisory grade (which in your application would be the master carpenter if only in name)?
Is there a supervisory grade? In the state where I live, all supervisors are required to qualify for a contractor's license. It is illegal to supervise (manage) without first qualifying for a contractor's license. That is just like the case I cited in which electrical supervisors were required to qualify for a master electrician's certificate. Let's see, supervisors qualify for master electrician licenses (certificates) and supervisors qualify for electrical contractor licenses. Light bulb going on yet?
not being privy to your location.............
I still think you are not quite correct in other states.
You do not need to be a "master" to own an electrical contracting business and your licenced business can pull permits.
There is no need to have a supervisor on a job unless the workload and scope of work suggest it.
And this still has nothing to do with the topic-Master Carpenter.
no?
Still in the dark eventho you keep typing the same thing over and over.
thanks.
You would lose your bet. In Florida all that is necessary to take the contractors exam is four years experience in the construction business. That would include the receptionist, the bookeeper, the sales staff or the guy who sweeps up the trash in your shop. Trust me, there are thousands of licensed general contractors in Florida who have never driven a nail much less built so much as a shed. There are no "master" desiginations in any trade I know of in Florida with the possible exceptions of union carpenters.
Nowadays we generally use the term "plumbing contractor" instead of "master plumber". And this is true for carpentry as well. Instead of using the term "master carpenter", we normally use the term "carpentry contractor". Does Florida require licenses of plumbing contractors or electrical contractors or carpentry contractors? If so, those laws do not apply to journeymen. What does Florida require of the person who takes the exam? It requires him to supervise, doesn't it?
Yes
I do remember correctly.
I didn't understand you back then and I'm pretty sure the same is going to apply.
There is no such classification that you can morph into or from "contractor" that miracuously denotes anything to do with the trade classification of "Master". .
Subs all have to be licensed in their trade before they can pull a permit. Electricians, plumbers, and A/C contractors have ot go through a journeyman program before thye can qualify a business. All other sub trades only have to have differing amounts of expereince to get licensed. Carpentry is not a licensed trade except within some counties. How would a guy who sold siding for a living for 4 years before he became a contractor supervise a 20 floor condo project? Not only is he not a 'master", he doesn't have the construction knowledge of a first year carpenters helper.
And around here at least, plumbing contractors, electrical contrators, and mechanical contractors are usually guys who own the companies but haven't turned a wrench in 20 years. There may be some who are "masters" but darn few. Even if you want to substitute 'Master Plumber" for "Journeyman Plumber" or "Plumbing Contractor" very few are masters of their trade in the traditional sense of the word.
Previously, you said that any person could take the exam. Now you say that for plumbing, mechanical, and electrical you need experience as a journeyman to qualify. If that is correct, then that provision of the law is unconstitutional under the decision of City of Tucson v. Stewart, 45 Ariz. 36, 40 P2d 72 and voids the entire law. That is exactly the same provision that the city of Tucson used to have for electrical contractors. Therefore the Supreme Court of Arizona voided the entire ordinance. The court said that six years' experience as a master electrician conceivably would do as much to qualify as six years' experience as a journeyman electrician. Nowhere in the ordinance itself was the term "master electrician" used. Nor was the term defined by the court in the decision. So it must be understood what the difference is. There would be no point in making such a statement if there were no difference. Currently, the Arizona statutory law has an experience provision for electrical supervisors to qualify for electrical contractor licenses. However, to avoid that which was declared unconstitutional, instead of requiring journeyman experience, the law requires the supervisor to have "practical or management trade experience" in the electrical field. That is just another way of saying experience as a journeyman electrician or master electrician.
Mor
Thank you for clarifying that.
No, I said that anyone that qualified could take a contractors exam. A plumber is not a General Contractor. And of course Arizona laws have no bearing in Florida so you still lose your bet.
But it doesn't matter anyway, I doubt anyone here has a clue what you're on about including you.
Well, actually, supreme court decisions in one state often do set precedent for other states, if the decisions relate to the US Constitution or to issues where the constitutions of the two states are similar. Of course, such decisions are not as "final" as a US Supreme Court decision, but they are not without "bearing".
Dan
And his interpretation of that court decision is somehow entered into law also?
He's put forth his opinions b/4 on this topic of how one becomes a master, journeyman, contractor, and manager. Personally I think it's all his pipe dream.
I was just clarifying a point of law. I have no idea what the particulars of that case might be or if/how it might apply.
You most certainly said that electrical, plumbing, and mechanical contractors must go through a journeyman program to qualify. Of course, a plumbing contractor is not a general contractor. But neither is a carpentry contractor, painting contractor, or masonry contractor.
Of course, Arizona law does not prevail in Florida. I would be interested to hear what your lien laws say. Here, the lien laws give a lien to any person, firm, or corporation who furnishes labor, material, or equipment for the construction, alteration, or repair of buildings or other structures, whether furnished at the instance of the property owner or his agent. All hired contractors and subcontractors are deemed agents of the property owner. The contractor licensing laws of Arizona state that no contractor or subcontractor shall act as an agent without being licensed. Twenty carpenters can form a carpentry business to perform labor. So can plumbers form a firm or corporation to perform plumbing labor. None of them are required to obtain licenses here because they are not agents of the property owner. If the state were to require a license from any plumber who performs labor, then all plumbers who perform labor would be required to obtain a license. Otherwise, the 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution would be violated. Under our system of law, either 0% or 100% of all members of the same class (occupation) must bear the same burden of licensing. The law cannot say that some plumbers who perform labor must obtain a license while others are exempt. You can see the unfairness of this.
Arizona law requires all SUPERVISORS to qualify for contractor licenses. Supervisors do not perform labor. There is a distinction between labor and management. I will bet that at some point in your life, at a restaurant or retail store or otherwise, you requested to see the manager to resolve a problem. Under Arizona law, the construction, alteration, or repair of buildings or other structures must be done under the direct supervision of a qualified supervisor, and no person can be a qualified supervisor unless he first qualifies for a contractors license. So, plumbing shall be done under the direct supervision of a qualified plumbing supervisor who has qualified for a plumbing contractor's license. To qualify, the supervisor must have four years' practical or management plumbing experience.
I looked up the Florida statutes for electrical contractors. Section 489.505 defines a "qualifying agent" as a person who supervises the business entity's projects. Sections 489.521 and 489.522 require "qualifying agents" to supervise in the field the projects they use there license to pull the permits for.
Now why do you say there is no requirement for the person who qualifies for the license to supervise when it is written in your statutory law? Perhaps you should read your own law before you spout off that this is not a requirement. I have just given you the sections you need to read to prove my point.
I also noticed that Florida does not have state licensing for journeyman electricians but has a section allowing reciprocity for cities and counties that do. Reciprocity means that if the journeyman is licensed in one city, another city shall honor the license if certain conditions are met.
Therefore, Florida recognizes a distinction between contractors on the one hand, and journeymen on the other in the electrical field.
I don't have all the nuances down, but the term comes from the old guild system:
When you started out in a trade you'd be apprenticed to a master. After you had learned all you could from that master (which would generally take several years) he'd give you a letter of introduction to other master carpenters he knew of. Then you became a journeyman, traveling from one town to another for several years learning from several other masters. At some point you were adjudged to have accumulated enough skill/knowledge to call yourself "master" and begin taking on your own apprentices.
There are a number of states that have licensing for journeymen plumbers or journeymen electricians. I doubt if 300 years ago plumbers and electricians traveled from town to town. Some states require electrical contractors and journeymen electricians to be licensed. The same is true for plumbing.
In every case I have ever read regarding licensing of journeymen plumbers and master plumbers or journeymen electricians or master electricians, the distinction was defined as follows: journeymen were defined as mechanics and master plumbers or master electricians were defined as contractors.
Yes, but 300 years ago carpenters traveled from town to town. And very likely leadworkers (the original plumbers) did the same.
"I doubt if 300 years ago
"I doubt if 300 years ago plumbers and electricians traveled from town to town."
Pst, Three hundred years ago, there were no electricians
Double Psst, ths thread is about master carpenters, not master plumbers or electricians.
Triple pssst, you are still as full of bull as you were ten years ago when you were spout ing the same line of carp undder a different name
"I doubt if 300 years ago
"I doubt if 300 years ago plumbers and electricians traveled from town to town."
Pst, Three hundred years ago, there were no electricians
Double Psst, ths thread is about master carpenters, not master plumbers or electricians.
Triple pssst, you are still as full of bull as you were ten years ago when you were spout ing the same line of carp undder a different name
The trade terminology of apprentice, crafstman, journeyman, master and grandmaster are hold overs from the days of the guilds. We often think in terms of medieval trade or merchant guilds but they were around centuries before. Interesting reading, the Roman name was colligia from which we get college, today. They were the first organized education systems but they were a lot more. Often closed fraternities that regulated and controled many things including, trade, money, standards and the government of towns and cities. Guild comes from the word Guilden, meaning to pay. Back in the day, you sure wouldn't freely give out trade secrets like we do on this forum.
To become a tradesman, you would become an apprentice to a master. This often meant starting in your teenage years, working for no pay other than room and board, often many years. As an apprentice you were not allowed to marry, which may be where we get Batchelors degree. For an apprentice to become a journeyman, he would have to go on the road, plying his craft for a number of years, almost a pilgrimage. As a man, no women allowed, you would not only have to serve your time and complete assigned tasks but also be evaluated by the masters of the guild. You would have to prove yourself not only capable in the craft but as a man in the eyes of your peers and elders.
Today, there are some degrees, certificates, and licensing that bestow the name, "master", upon a person. They vary and some hold more weight than others. For carpenters, cabinetmakers and others in the woodworking trades, there are no such certificates. Today, there aren't even any training requirements to become a carpenter. Lacking any prerequisites or a judicial board, terms like Master have no meaning. It's like a guitar player saying a drummer is great. Nice to hear but what does a guitar player know about drumming? If a bunch of accomplished drummers say a drummer is great, that's a different story. I think it would be the same with a carpenter. If other carpenters call you a master, that's a compliment but only if they share the same level of experience and competence. A true master carpenter would never call themselves a master, they would think of themselves as a student with many more things to learn. Like Calvin said, the more you know, the more you know how much you don't know.
Master Builders License
Here in the colonies we are a bit closer to the roots. You are intended to have a "Master Carpenter", (he has to write an exam) on staff to get a "Master Builder" License. That goes for all municipalities in Ontario. I was hauled off a roof in Hamilton and told I had to get my license about 20 years ago.... I sat both tests in the same day and came out with my shiny licences and $500 poorer. Can't say I ever felt so good getting my pocket picked.
We all have our specialties... going through hard times is often part of becoming a Master at anything. You put in your 10,000 hours of effort to learn, you can too.
These days carpenters are specialized. I have only framed 3 roofs in my life, but I can cope stain grade crown trim with a jigsaw, and do the biggest baddest structural laminations you can imagine. I am likely good at 5 or 6 trades--as are most of us.
The old descriptions don't have much to do with anything these days, aside from entertaining us serfs!
L
The trade terminology history............
The trade terminology of
Thanks, that was an excellent rundown of what we've been talking about.
Very well said, sir!
Masterful rendition
So the consensus is there is no consensus on using the term master carpenter.
I suspect, however, all can agree on what you call the guy who hangs all the bait on a fishing boat!
From the Supreme Court of Louisiana: "There is a well-recognized difference between a master plumber and a journeyman plumber, and this distinction is noted by the trial judge. The former is a plumber who employs plumbers, and the latter is one who does the actual work of plumbing." 168 La. 742, 123 So. 310. Obviously the people who reply on this board do not have the mental capacity to substitute the terms "carpenter" and "carpentry" in the previous statement.
From the Court of Civil Appeals of Texas, Dallas: "In the nature of things, we think a corporation could not engage in the occupation either of a master plumber or of a journeyman plumber." In said case, a Dallas ordinance required both master plumbers and journeyman plumbers to obtain licenses. From the Court: "Section 13 defines a master plumber to be an employing plumber and a person who does not hold himself out as personally doing plumbing work, but as contracting to furnish the material and doing the work through others. A journeyman plumber is defined to be a person skilled in the calling, and holding himself out as being able and willing to do the work of a plumber." 242 S.W. 1073. Could this not apply to carpentry as well?
From the Court of Appeals of Kentucky: "This creates a distinct class to be dealt with by the law, and is founded upon the distinction between the persons who actually perform the work of plumbing and those who merely contract to do plumbing and employ other persons to do the work, the latter class being the employing or master plumbers." Also from the same case: "...; and in Felton v. City of Atlanta, 4 Ga. App. 183, 61 S.E. 27, the Supreme Court of Georgia defined master plumbers and employing plumbers to be one and the same, and to be those who did not hold themselves out as personally doing the work, but as contracting to furnish the material and to do the work through others, while journeyman plumbers were defined to be those skilled in the business and holding themselves out as able and willing to do the work themselves." City of Louisville v. Coulter, 177 Ky. 242, 197 S.W. 819. So master plumbers are engaged in contracting as plumbing contractors. Could this not apply to carpentry?
From Tennessee, Ohio, Wisconsin, and Georgia, we have licensing of master and journeyman plumbers. State ex rel. Grantham v. City of Memphis, 151 Tenn. 1, 266 S.W. 1038; State v. Gardner, 58 Ohio St. 599, 51 N.E. 36; State ex rel. Winkler v. Benzenberg, 101 Wis. 172, 76 N.W. 345; Henry v. Campbell, 133 Ga. 882, 67 S.E. 390.
In Ex parte Davis, 118 Or. 693, 247 P. 809, master plumbers were required to obtain licenses but not journeyman plumbers.
From the Supreme Court of Arizona: "Six years' experience as a master electrician conceivably would do as much to qualify the applicant as six years' experience as a journeyman electrician." 45 Ariz. 36, 40 P2d. 72.
Look at the broad spectrum of states from just this small sample that recognize a distinction between master and journeyman. This distinction can apply to any trade.
mor
Obviously the people who reply on this board do not have the mental capacity to substitute the terms "carpenter" and "carpentry" in the previous statement.
Obviously.
Now get to the subject at hand.
Master Carpenter.
and no you can't substitute court rulings that do not have anything to do with a carpenter.
obviously.
As I stated previously, you'd lose your bet in Florida. There is no master qualification for any trade in Florida. There is no qualification for carpentry at all. However, since you persist in misunderstand the OP we'll say a "Master Plumber" is the same as a "Journeyman Plumber" or even a level higher if you like. Does the legal title "Master" make one so?
I've been a carpenter for 40 years and a GP for 30. I AM a master at certain aspects of cartentry and of many more as a contractor but would never refer to myself as a Master Carpenter. Maybe I really am but I'll leave it to others to bestow that title on me.
There are 50 states in the US, and each one has its own, different scheme for licensing "professionals" (plus of course DC and each of the territories have theirs). In addition, as noted, a number of unions have their own certification programs.
There's no title or ceritifcation for the trades that is recognized as meaningful and equivalent everywhere.
Way back machine on:
Traditionally, there were apprentices of various stages, then journeymen, and masters.
An apprentice was learning.
A Journeyman, was literally journeying from master to master to expand his skill base by learning and refining his mastery of the trade, and saving up his money, so that he could open his own shop and become a master.
Forty years back, before the death of the unions in most locations, there was a distinct hierarchy on who was an apprentice at what level, a journyman, and who was a master at what level.
My younger brother apprenticed in the carpenters local when he graduated from highschool in 1976. After he finished the twelve weeks of required course work, (unpaid of course), and passed his first level test he was assigned to a senior master, who was his mentor for the next year.
There were three levels of apprentice, with a requirement of work experience, and testing required for advancment to the next level. After finishing the three years of apprenticeship, they took an exam to become a journeyman. There were three levels of union classification above journeyman: teaching journeyman, who was assigned a third year apprentice to mentor; master, who had a second year apprentice to mentor; and, senior master, who had a first year apprentice to mentor.
The hiring list was geared to keep the cubs and their mentors working. The senior master, and first year apprentice pairs automaticaly were at the head of the hiring list, and got first choice on the work assignments. They were followed on the list by the master/apprentice, and teaching journeyman/apprentice pairs, then the journeymen.
The pay rates were set so that the pairings had the same total hourly rate as two journeymen. The apprentices got 60% of scale their first year, 75% their second, 90% their third, and then became journeymen. Their mentors got the difference.
The mentors were responsible for assuring their cub was ready for their exams in the spring. If the cub failed the exam, which included both skills demonstrations, and a written portion, the mentor got dropped down a grade. With the corresponding drop in pay, and lower odds of working, because they dropped down the hire list. A cub that failed the exam had to repeat that year of the apprenticeship. If they failed twice they were out of the program.
by far the most lucid response. Although I know the
history, as you so well laid it out, I was curious as to whether you think it's an appropriate term nowadays. I was thinking of creating a new guild in my town, where a lot of carpenters are known to each other, and maybe making it a sort of marketing thing, where we follow certain quality guideline, etc. In other words, guys who have to live up to certain standards and protocols and behavior. A kind of BBB.
It is a term to be earned and applied by one's peers in a trade. Traditionally within the strictures of an organized European union crafts guild.
anytime one applies it to himself, his credentials are immediately suspect
FL Licensing
I am relocating to FL from PA in July. Can you give me any info on the best way to get licensed in FL? The search I did turned up these old posts so I don't know if you are still active here. Any advice would be appreciated!
FL
Go to myflorida.com. There should be links to start a business and what to do to get licensed.