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Discussion Forum

Who does the pan?

kltzycrpntr | Posted in General Discussion on June 1, 2008 05:52am

So we’re ready to tile now. My tile guy says that the plumber has to install the rubber membrane shower pan because it hooks up to the drain. Tile guy also says that he has never installed the rubber membrane, he just trims it. Plumber says that he doesn’t install the rubber membrane because he has no control with what happen to it after. He’s worried about holes or tears by carelessness. And it’s not that difficult to hook up to the drain or properly fold the corners, which I fully agree with him on that. Plumber says that in all the other jobs he does, the tile guys insist on installing the pan. The plumber will do it, and put a balloon test to it, but doesn’t want the tile guy to point the finger at him if there are leaks in the future

Both subs make valid points, but I would tend to think that the tile guy should do the pan because he has more work in the shower. And that it doesn’t take much to put a balloon in the drain and fill up the pan with water overnight to check for leaks.

So who is responsible for doing this? Or does it vary from job to job? Both of these subs are very competent workers. I know there are other pan systems out there i.e schluter, that another tile guy I talked to does exclusively.

I’m interested in what you have to say. Thanks

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Replies

  1. MikeSmith | Jun 01, 2008 05:56pm | #1

    tile guy.... the plumber leaves the drain loose

    the tile guy does all the membrane... or ...

     get a new tile guy

    Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
  2. Piffin | Jun 01, 2008 06:34pm | #2

    Tile guy is responsible for the liner and hooking to the drain rough-in.

     

     

    Welcome to the
    Taunton University of
    Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
     where ...
    Excellence is its own reward!

  3. dustinf | Jun 01, 2008 06:46pm | #3

    Here in Allegheny county the plumber is required to install the membrane.  It must be inspected as part of the rough in. 

    Maybe it's localized, but I've never seen anyone except a plumber install the rubber membrane. 

    It's not too late, it's never too late.

    1. Jim_Allen | Jun 01, 2008 07:56pm | #4

      Back in MI, the plumber would not get a rough inspection green tag without the membrane installed. Here in TX, the tile guys say a third party has to do it! It's a regional thing and it's a negotiable thing. The plumbers argment that someone might poke a hole in it is illogical, unless he's going to use the same logic for all his pipes and let someone else install them too. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07

      1. MSA1 | Jun 01, 2008 10:36pm | #10

        Beat me to it. My plumber does the membrane, tile guy sets the mud.

        Part of the plumbing rough is filling the membrane with water to make sure nothing leaks.  

        1. Jim_Allen | Jun 01, 2008 10:45pm | #11

          I never saw that done unless it rained...then the rain ran down the drain before I got there to see it. Do you pick up the membrane and look underneath for wet spots LOL? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07

          1. Piffin | Jun 01, 2008 10:51pm | #12

            There is a collar the tile guys use to set up over the drain 2" so they can fill the liner with water and let it stand to see if the water level goes down.'course, in parts of texas, it is so dry that it would go down by evaporation so fast that...;) 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          2. MSA1 | Jun 02, 2008 02:31am | #31

            No, they just wanted to make sure it held water.

             

  4. User avater
    McDesign | Jun 01, 2008 07:58pm | #5

    Peter.

     

    Forrest

    1. peteshlagor | Jun 02, 2008 12:19am | #24

      Me?  I've never done one.

       

  5. User avater
    BarryE | Jun 01, 2008 09:11pm | #6

    plumber guy.... the plumber installs the membrane

    the plumber guy does all the membrane... or ...

    get a new plumber guy


    Barry E-Remodeler

     

    1. MikeSmith | Jun 01, 2008 09:12pm | #7

      jackMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

      1. User avater
        BarryE | Jun 01, 2008 09:36pm | #8

        jack?Is that part of your signature?<g>really though, are you cranky today? does it have to be all or nothing? I always count on you to be the voice of reason.instead of firing specialty contractors all the time isn't it easier to school them in the way we like to see things done? I get tired of looking for new subs and starting all over.Either of my subs will install the pan if I ask them, depends on the timing but as others have stated it's usually easier to have the plumber do it to save time on the inspection

        Barry E-Remodeler

         

  6. JohnCujie | Jun 01, 2008 09:50pm | #9

    The tile man should do the pan, that way he is responsible for all the waterproofing in the shower should an issue arise. They sell pan membrane at the tile supply house, not the plumbing supply where I come from.

    John

    1. Shep | Jun 01, 2008 10:54pm | #13

      Around here, plumbing supply houses sell the membrane, not tile suppliers.

      And plumbers install it.

      Must be a regional thing.

       

      The OP's gonna be real confused after reading these. He's getting no consensus on who should do what LOL

      1. User avater
        BarryE | Jun 01, 2008 11:03pm | #14

        It can get more confusing. To do it right he should have a preslope, which requires an extra trip by the tile guy.which is why I sometimes have the tiler do it and sometimes the plumber, it's all in the timing.OP...any more questions? :)

        Barry E-Remodeler

         

        1. Jim_Allen | Jun 01, 2008 11:05pm | #15

          I never saw one presloped. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07

          1. User avater
            BarryE | Jun 01, 2008 11:22pm | #16

            it's rare around here also.I talked my tiler into doing it a few years ago and now he does it on most of his jobs, charges me an extra 100 bucks.If you have ever torn out a mudbed without preslope it's constantly wet between the bed and the pan because the water can't drain to the weephles in the drainhttp://www.ontariotile.com/preslope.html

            Barry E-Remodeler

             

          2. Jim_Allen | Jun 01, 2008 11:23pm | #17

            Why wouldn't the moisture migrate out the top, which allows the free tranfer of moisture because it's not a moisture barrier? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07

          3. User avater
            BarryE | Jun 01, 2008 11:28pm | #18

            I'm guessing it would..eventuallybut most showers are used everyday and the water is laying between edpm and a few inches of mudbed and tile. which probably doesn't allow for speedy evaporation.All i know is that every mudbed I've torn out has been wet between the edpm and mudbed. which would seem to be a good breeding ground

            Barry E-Remodeler

             

          4. Jim_Allen | Jun 01, 2008 11:45pm | #19

            I just don't think that a sloped mudbed would guarantee dryness down there trapped beneath all that mud and folds and stuff. Perhaps a scientist could do some tests and post some results or something. I mean...if mold is going to form, then even a small amount of moisture trapped in that system would cause it to grow. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07

          5. User avater
            BarryE | Jun 01, 2008 11:55pm | #21

            Only 2 things guaranteed.but the preslope surely encourages a better chance of draining and a dryer bed. For 100 bucks seems worth the chance

            Barry E-Remodeler

             

          6. hvtrimguy | Jun 02, 2008 01:08am | #28

            Last one I did, plumber roughed it in, tile guy pre sloped the plywood before the liner, I attached the drain flange because neither wanted to, tile guy did the rubber, I did the wall membrane, tile guy did second sloped mud pan and tiled. way I see it is so long as it gets done by someone and it is right, who cares. Although if Peter or Jack were around I would certainly let them do it. :-)"it aint the work I mind,
            It's the feeling of falling further behind."Bozini Latinihttp://www.ingrainedwoodworking.com

          7. User avater
            BarryE | Jun 02, 2008 03:57am | #37

            <way I see it is so long as it gets done by someone and it is right, who cares>I'm with ya, especially the done right part :)

            Barry E-Remodeler

             

          8. JohnCujie | Jun 01, 2008 11:49pm | #20

            I thought preslope was code. When we have the pan inspected, must hold water for 24 hours and then drain completely. Can't drain thru the weepholes without a slope.John

          9. User avater
            BarryE | Jun 01, 2008 11:56pm | #22

            No code for preslope in my area. could be elsewhere

            Barry E-Remodeler

             

          10. Piffin | Jun 02, 2008 12:15am | #23

            It should be presloped, and there are shim kits made for doing it easily 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          11. User avater
            BarryE | Jun 02, 2008 12:27am | #25

            If you're referring to the Schluter kit, I think they are okay for smaller standard showers but the tile guys I've used don't like them especially for larger or irregular pans.or do you have something else?I have seen guys use plywood to build their slope in but have never tried it myself

            Barry E-Remodeler

             

          12. Piffin | Jun 02, 2008 12:47am | #26

            Yes, the schulter composite.larger custome sizes would definitely need formed in place.another reason it needs to be sloped here is that these homes get shut down in winter. You don't want that mudbed pan floating water to freeze 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          13. User avater
            BarryE | Jun 02, 2008 03:56am | #35

            <another reason it needs to be sloped here is that these homes get shut down in winter. You don't want that mudbed pan floating water to freeze>never thought of that one, after the winter we had that's a good point

            Barry E-Remodeler

             

        2. Shep | Jun 02, 2008 03:59am | #38

          I usually do the pre-slope myself, since I'm on the job anyway, and so the plumber or tile guy doesn't have to make an extra trip.

          Also so the pre-slope actually gets done.

          1. User avater
            BarryE | Jun 02, 2008 04:25am | #42

            if you want it done right.... :)

            Barry E-Remodeler

             

      2. User avater
        Huck | Jun 02, 2008 02:08am | #29

        I guess we're still in the dark ages here - the roofer does the hot mop for the shower stall, inspector fills it with water and comes back the next day to check for leaks, then the tile guy does his cement base over that.View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com

        1. JohnCujie | Jun 02, 2008 02:51am | #34

          We had a roofer in the bay area who had a small kettle and did nothing but shower pans. Haven't seen him in a few years.John

          1. kltzycrpntr | Jun 02, 2008 04:11am | #39

            I did preslope the floor. I cut shims approximately 30inches long and went from 3/4" to 0. After I installed the shims I put plywood over them.In my area, eastern Connecticut, the BI doesn't inspect the pan. And the tile guy is allowed to attach the membrane to the drain. Tile guy can't do anything that involves the trap. Both plumbing supply houses and tile distributors sell membranes. The ones at the plumbing supply houses seem to be thicker though.

          2. User avater
            BarryE | Jun 02, 2008 04:24am | #41

            my answer is whoever you can convince to do it.At this point if you are past the plumbing rough-in I would have the tiler do it.if at this point you can't convince either one, than I'm with Mike, find someone who will

            Barry E-Remodeler

             

          3. kltzycrpntr | Jun 02, 2008 05:30am | #46

            I've already found another tile guy who will do it. And he'll actually do even more waterproofing than my regional guy. He said that's what he always does no matter what because he doesn't want to chance water or moisture getting where it shouldn't. It seems like it isn't anyone's specific job to install the pan. It's a job by job and region to region thing. I didn't realize that my original question would spark this much debate. But then again... look who I'm asking :-) Looks like I have everyone's opinion, so I have a leg to stand on when I talk to my original tile guy who will tell me that that it's not his or any tile guy's job to install the pan. From what I've seen many times, it isn't all that hard to install the membrane. There's always going to be 'shared work' during the building process, so why should this be different. The electrician runs the sensor wires for the garage door guy. The sider needs to make sure of proper flashing details after the roofer. Depending on who gets there first, stair guy and hardwood floor guy need to make sure the nosings will work. etc., etc., etc. We all need to work together and think about the 'next guy' Can't we all just get along:-)Thanks for all the responses

          4. User avater
            Jeff_Clarke | Jun 02, 2008 09:30am | #47

            Here in NJ the plumbers do it.

            Jeff

        2. Shep | Jun 02, 2008 03:56am | #36

          hot mop? you are in the dark ages! LOL

          around here, its usually the rubber membrane, although I've started seeing more fiberglass/ epoxy pans. I kind of like them- they seem less prone to damage during construction.

          1. seeyou | Jun 02, 2008 04:21am | #40

            around here, its usually the rubber membrane, although I've started seeing more fiberglass/ epoxy pans.

            I make/install 3-4 CU pans a year. http://grantlogan.net/

             

            But you all knew that.  I detailed it extensively in my blog.

          2. Shep | Jun 02, 2008 04:44am | #43

            I've seen lead pans from showers done years ago. They seem to rot out from the cement after a while, especially if the lead wasn't coated to protect it from the cement.

            I've never seen a copper pan- it seems like it would be a shame to cover it up <G>

        3. Piffin | Jun 02, 2008 02:01pm | #48

          LOL, this is getting almost as complicated as a range hood exhast. You need your carpenter to cut the hole, the sparkie to wire it up, the tin knocker to fit the flue, the interior designer to pick it out and to stand there nodding and saying that looks just right ( or not) and the painter to touch up the gouges made by all those people trying to work in the same space at the same time...BTW I hate installing range hoods.
          ;) 

           

          Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          1. kltzycrpntr | Jun 03, 2008 02:25am | #49

            Who takes the plastic protective shipping tape off:-)

          2. seeyou | Jun 03, 2008 03:21am | #50

            And who cleans the drywaller poop out of it?

            I've used the word "poop" three times in the last 24 hours here. I'm regressing. In a couple of weeks I'll crawl back in the womb.http://grantlogan.net/

             

            But you all knew that.  I detailed it extensively in my blog.

          3. Piffin | Jun 03, 2008 03:24am | #51

            you'll have to stretch the womb to fit or lose more weight first 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          4. User avater
            G80104 | Jun 03, 2008 06:17am | #52

            I once dated this girl.....

          5. Piffin | Jun 03, 2008 06:24am | #53

            One size fits all? 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          6. User avater
            IMERC | Jun 03, 2008 06:35am | #54

            did ya rub one side till the other side got jealous and moved over???? 

            Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->

            WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

          7. User avater
            G80104 | Jun 03, 2008 06:43am | #55

            No, but I did lose my car keys that night!

          8. User avater
            IMERC | Jun 03, 2008 06:53am | #56

            they're next to my watch... 

            Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->

            WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

          9. User avater
            Jeff_Clarke | Jun 03, 2008 08:27am | #57

            "LOL, this is getting almost as complicated as a range hood exhast"

            You left out the kitchen cabinet installer to actually fit the hood and the roofer to waterproof the roof cap!  ;o)Jeff

             

  7. DougU | Jun 02, 2008 12:53am | #27

    This is a pretty regional thing, for instance, BarryE who lives 120 miles to the west of me, in the same state, says that the plumber does it. I have never seen a plumber do a membrane yet! Tile guy always does it.

    I lived in Texas, same area as Jim Allen does now, there a third party comes in and puts a liquid fiberglass pan in, that's all they do, fiberglass pans, nothing else. Then the tile guy comes in and finishes the job.

    Here the tile guy gets a pipe sticking up out of the floor and takes over.

    Doug

    1. Waters | Jun 02, 2008 05:28am | #45

      Ditto--far as I know. 

  8. Pelipeth | Jun 02, 2008 02:26am | #30

    Here in West. Cty. New York, the plumber does the membrane.

    1. User avater
      Joe | Jun 02, 2008 02:32am | #32

      Here in NYC it's the plumber if it's a filed job (has to be inspected). Could be just about anyone if it's not filed.http://www.josephfusco.org
      http://joes-stuff1960.blogspot.com/

      1. Jimmy | Jun 02, 2008 02:37am | #33

        Up in Canada Mike Holmes does it....

  9. User avater
    G80104 | Jun 02, 2008 04:45am | #44

    Tile guy!

    But you could save some Dough if you let the Drywallers Dew-It!

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