so, how many of you follow the blueprints down to the nail? on your house or spec house? a costomers?
one of my recent wonderings
can you hold the laser level while I shave?
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Replies
At this point I generally don't even have them.
When I did, never.
Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
We do custom work and have prints for even the most simple of jobs. I usually follow them to the T, of course there are some exceptions but rarely.
I try to make it look like the picture!
Doug
if you dont follow the prints, would it be a liability problem.
if you don't follow the prints, would it be a liability problem.
by now you've probably read some of the other responses but if not then the answer is yes, it can be a liability problem.
Build it different from the plan and see what the customer says when they don't see the one detail that they really liked and its not there!
Most of the other people on here are talking about whole house prints but for me the majority of the time the prints I'm working with are for built-ins, custom cabinetry, architectural millwork and stuff like that. We build a whole house maybe once every two years but it's pretty much the same for that.
Doug
Depends on the print. Usually, I try to follow the print just to cover my ####. However, things tend to happen. Plumber gets a pipe in the wrong spot, truss manufacturer doesn't allow for this and that, foundation has to be shrunk because of bedrock, etc. And then the owners start changing their minds. Most customers are unable to visualize a building based on a blueprint, and changing their minds is a very natural consequence.
Then there are architects. I've worked with a number of times who draws bathrooms with a tub/shower at 5-1 (tubs go in at rough in and the dimension is 5-0). Then he draws stair treads at 11 inches. (I had to explain the concept of 10" nosing to nosing.) Last house, he drew a door under a stairway that could only be used by a hobbit. Follow those plans to the letter and you will be in trouble.
When I was at a young, tender, impressionable age, an old guy told me that "the plan is only a guide" and he was right.
Good points, except I don't follow your stair example. Code minimum is 10" nosing to nosing, and for a shallow rise stair you might want 11" treads. For example, if the riser is 6", a 10" stringer cut won't make for a comfortable stair.
Most residential stairs are cut with a 10" tread. I spoke to the architect about this and he said he meant standard 11 1/4" finish treads. He just didn't get it that if you do a scale drawing on a floor plan, the stair treads should be drawn at 10".
<<<<<<Most residential stairs are cut with a 10" tread. I spoke to the architect about this and he said he meant standard 11 1/4" finish treads. He just didn't get it that if you do a scale drawing on a floor plan, the stair treads should be drawn at 10".>>>>>is that some rule ?....tell me moreMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I hire contractors for commercial work, always with a set of plans. For remodels, there is always some give & take for unseen conditions, but the plans are followed as much as possible. If something truly unforseen comes up, I fully expect to get a change order. For new work, the plans are more detailed, and the gc better follow the plans to the letter, or I don't pay. If something is drawn wrong, it's up to the gc to bring it to my or the archys attention, and then we work ouit a correction.
I'm not saying the gc is responsible for checking the drawings, but we had a case recently where the brick veneer did not work out properly wirth the parapet flashing. The gc brought it to our attention cuz it just flat could not be built the way it was drawn. Common sense always has a place.
Commercial work is different too, in that the gc and subs and vendors are requyired to submit shop drawings for the millwork and structural steel, and submittals for all the components like light fixtures, roofing materials, etc, and then the owner-archy approves them before they are brought on site. Takes a little time and coordination, but once it's approved there's no question about misunderstanding. And if the shop drawings are approved, and the steel is fab'd per the drawings and then found to be incorrect, the gc and sub are off the hook for the cost of making it right."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I was taught that a 10 inch run is standard (11 inch on commercial). It's not just me..if I go into any lumber around here and buy any sort of stock tread, it will be 11 1/4", allowing for a nosing with a 10 inch tread. Obviously, there are situations where you want to deviate from that--shorter rises need longer treads, for instance. This might be regional. How do you do it.
i... and every stair mfr, designs the rise and rn , and finished treads to conform witht eh conditionsand often, to comply with code... you have to change the conditions... like move a wall to allow for a code required landingin my humble opinion.... there is no standard run... it varies with the rise.. if you consult some stair graphs you will see that there is a curve.... showing the proper relationship between any given rise and runlook in Architectural Graphic Standards ( any edition ) under Building Planningif you want standard runs... go to Home Depot and buy pre-cut stringers
but in this case... your architect was right... and the guy who taught you was wrongbut hey whadda i no ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"hey whadda i no ?"More than marson's architect apparantlyBut he's probably never been properly bitten
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I agree, there is no hard and fast rule regarding stair runs. We all agree there are minimums set by code but we also can exceed the minimum. In MI, we used a nine inch run 90% of the time. The "standard" tread stock was 1 1/2" x 10 1/4" and made of #1 yellow pine. That works for me just fine. Others will claim they like the lower pitches and longer runs but I'm okay with the 7.66" rise (or 7.90") and 9" run....it just feels confortable to me because I've climbed so many stairs that have that ratio. In my own house, I used the 10" runs and wasn't impressed. Yeah, yeah, yeah...I know were getting older. We'll all soon have personal elevators and use them instead of climbing the stairs anyways. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Mike
I would have to say the majority of homes I framed in the last twenty years have used 9" run-10 1/8" treads. Although we did lot of production work, it was for a lot of quality builders.
Normally when we see 11 1/8" treads, the stair as designed ends up in the middle of a cased opening.In the majority of homes we frame 9" runs are the only thing we can shoehorn into the space the architect( more likely a designer)provides.
I try to go with the flow- if a standard 9" works- thats what we frame. I hate reframing stair holes.No one wins.
Greg in Connecticut
Edited 3/22/2008 8:02 pm ET by gzajac
if you want standard runs... go to Home Depot and buy pre-cut stringers
but in this case... your architect was right... and the guy who taught you was wrongNo, the architect meant 10 inch run which is standard in our area. (Minnesota) He just didn't know how to draw them.
oooh,,, sorry... we have no standard.. our current code has a minimum ( 9.5" ) tread and a max ht of 8 1/4a couple years ago they tried to adapt 7 & 11..... but it would have made most homes unbuildablemy new IRC 2006 is in the mail... we'll see what that brings.in any case if you work it backwards... with a 11 1/4" finish tread allowing 1" of nosing and 3/4 " risers , your rough tread will be 9.5how are you covering the extra 1/2" of your finish tread if your stringer is cut to 10" ?or do you use a wider finish tread ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Why subtract the riser thickness?
risers go from top of riser to bottom of riser... the tread butts against the riser and overlaps the riser belowdo your risers sit on the tread ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I'm late in this thread so if it's already been covered...sorry
But The topic lead me to wonder about a disclaimer I've seen on pretty much every drawing about reporting immediately any discrepenices.
This phrase in my opinion, is basically saying there will be all the mistakes in the drawings that there are, and it is up to us to report them and if we don't then the mistake is our fault, and it's our butts.
Now that's sort of my extreme take on it. Generally anything that in my professional opinion I feel I should run by the Archy or engineer I make the call. But a lot of the time it's stupid little stuff that I feel they gonna say " well yeah, it's supposed to be the other way.....you could't figure that out on your own?" so I don't bother.
Sometimes getting ahold of these guys can take a day, meanwhile waiting to move ahead because some stud is in the wrong spot or whatever would be ludicrous. you could end up making several calls in the same day for stupid stuff.
It's just kind of funny, the money these guys make, and they get away with all the mistakes that they sometimes make.
View Image View Image
I used to just LOVE a note on every detail.. "V.I.F"
( verify in field) so basically it says, "I dunno, you figure it out" LOL.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
perfect example of C.Y.A. architecture!!!.
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"After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion" -Neil deGrasse Tyson
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If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
No lie.
I made a few suggestions about a beam to my current customer...then upon thinking it through I told him to hire an Eng. and get me a "plan"..he listened and made the call..we meet this week.
I have a side bet with the HO..the Eng. will spec what I said I was gonna do any way ( 3 14" LVLs) we'll see how close I was in my call.
With my luck, the eng will want a w30 steel beam..LOLSpheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
You could wrap it in copper..
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"After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion" -Neil deGrasse Tyson
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If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
I KNOW I could talk this HO into that..lolSpheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
I used to just LOVE a note on every detail.. "V.I.F"
My favorite is N.T.S.
Not To Scale, or as we say Not To Sure Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
The way I usually see that is a note "Builder shall verify all field measurements"
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Yeah, just like that. The tread butts into the riser above, and rests on the riser below. Therefore 10" -3/4 (the riser above) +3/4 (the riser below) = 10". 1 1/4" nosing with the lumberyard stair tread.Before last summer, in tight spots, we could go down to a 9" run. But the code is now enforced in my city so that 10" is our minimum run.
Mike, you're barking up the wrong tree on this one. The riser thickness is a neutral number. The same thickness is added(or subtracted) every time. In any event, when we see a set of stairs with 10" runs, we use 2 x 12 which gives us an 1 1/4" nosing. When we see a set of stairs calling for 9" run, we use 10 1/4" stock which they ship out at.....10 1/4"! Ta da!!!! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
hmmm... guess i'll have to draw something up to illustrate my pointi still get a 9 1/2" rough tread if i'm trying to use an 11 1/4" finished tread....not 10"Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I'll be curious to see your thinking on this one too...
You don't set your risers on top of your tread, do you?
Yes you are going to have to draw it. You're forgetting that on every tread, you add the thickness of the riser material. As long as every riser is the same thickness, then every cut run is the same. If your finished tread is 11 1/4", you run is 10" and the nosing is 1 1/4". If you make your cuts on the stringer at 9.5" as you suggest, then add a 3/4" riser material on every tread, your run will be 9.5" and if you have the normal 1.25" nosing, you would have a finished tread of 10 3/4". You gotta remember....you're adding the riser on one edge and subtracting it on the other edge. That's why I say it's neutral....it adds nothing to the equation, nor takes it away. The only spot you have to make the adjustment for it is the top riser on any flight...and that depends on how you attach it.Either the light bulb is going to go on soon Mike, or you're going to figure out that we are talking about two differnt things, which very well be to case. Actually, I think you're going to say...."doh!" Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
doh !double add....(nevermind )Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Hehehehehe.At least you didn't cut an entire stringer and then wonder why it looks like it's going to stick out the front of the house (I've seen that several times LOL) Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Ha! Mike Smith made a mistake.
Mark it down.
Sounds like someone doesn't know the difference between tread size and run ..
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"After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion" -Neil deGrasse Tyson
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If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
That's pretty sad that the architect didn't understand that a stair with 11 1/4" treads would project onto a floor plan as 10" nose to nose. I draw a dashed line on plans at the front of the riser to make sure it's clear to everyone.
I've only done remodeling or fully custom houses, so I didn't know that 10" runs were a standard. Where are you located?
if the plans were ever right I would do so...
But I've only been doing this for 26 years so that situation hasn't come up yet.
There was a small article in FHB about some guys building a REALLY nice stable.
it showed the plans and they were something like 50+ pages with tons of details.
I showed that to my boss at the time and said something to the effect of How nice it would be to have such a complete set of plans to work from.
of course in remodeling you never know what you are into til way after the planning stage.
and they never ask me to use my x-ray vision to help with the plans...
But they do expect me to be Superman, Kreskin, and Mother Theresa while I do the job!!!
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"After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion"
-Neil deGrasse Tyson
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If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
But they do expect me to be Superman, Kreskin, and Mother Theresa while I do the job!!!
Forget that last,...I think she wore pants!
I have 14 pages of prints for my house. The archectic and I when over a lot of details that I didn't want to leave to my faulty memory or someone else's idea of what I wanted. I was fortunate that the young man had also been in the building trades for several years , so his design ideas were based on what was more do-able than many I have seen.
BTW, where to you get that x-ray vision?
As hard as I try, all I get is x-rated
Blueprints? We don't need no stinking blueprints! *
When I worked with a framer, I remember asking him something about the blueprints one time and he said, "Go get them and look at them, if you want to" and pointed them out--lying in a puddle of water in the excavation. We were constantly rebuilding stuff after doing it his way and the customer pointing out how it was on the prints. I remember nailing plywood to porch walls and then finding out they were supposed to be open, framing a cutain (gable end) wall and finding out the windows that were custom ordered wouldn't fit. Stuff like that.
* From the movie "Treasure of the Sierra Madre" where some banditos pose as police and Bogard or one of them asks to see their badges and they reply "We don't need no stinking badges."
Edited 3/21/2008 7:45 am ET by Danno
I can build a house from a picture in a magazine if I do the work myself........if I hire a framing crew sub I check every inch according to the print and it better be on or very close to plan.
I've seen so many F ups from guys who think they know better than the designer I trust no one... cept myself, of course:-)
The only time there should be a change is if the print is wrong and the change is written and signed off by HO in advance.
any deviations from the blueprints are a Change Order
either a formal Change Order, or an informal one ( but document anyways )blue prints are usually referenced in the Contract Documents... so any deviations leave the Contractor ( we execute Contracts ) open to legal liability .... and lot's of "he said/ she said " so... if there is an architect involved , then they have to sign off
no architect, then the Owner has to sin offif it's design / build... the Owner still has to agree to any changes from the documents as the were at Contract Signing timeMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Well stated Mike.
And, ruffmike.
just a note: I discuss all things via e-mail so I have automatic documentation. Don't know if it would hold in court but I feel better anyhow."it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."Bozini Latinihttp://www.ingrainedwoodworking.com
Andy, I don't work on many houses in my day job, mostly commercial work including condos.
The blueprints are refered to as the contract drawings. Any changes or deviations must be documented and approved. This can be as simple as a little note with initials of parties involved, but more likely involves RFI's, correspondense, meetings, 8x10 drawings, change orders and lots of time.
Guys with a lighter veiw of thing sometimes refer to blueprints as the "Sunday comics" because they change so often. When working of of prints you have to make sure they have the newest stamped date on them, there are often 2 or 3 sets of drawings floating around such as bid set, issued for const. set, and the latest updated set.
Being able to read prints is a valuable skill to have and not as simple as it seems.
Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
What do you do to insure that someone is looking at the most recent version of the blueprints? That is, someone has a copy of the blueprints dated 2/10/08, how do they know it is the most current? I've long wondered how to have a system to insure that everyone knows what the most recent version is (in my case I'm talking about documentation, but it applies to blueprints, or pretty much anything, as well).The best I have been able to come up with is to have a single revision list that shows the dates of changes/revisions. Then tell everyone the first thing to do is check the revision list, and make sure the document you are looking at has the date associated with the most current version.But I'm open to other ideas!
The pages that are updated will have a delta # and addenum date and changed areas should be clouded with the delta #. Every trade is responsible to know the latest delta or addenum.
That is in a perfect world. More common is having a bunch of issued 8x10 sheets showing specific areas or details, more organised guys will have these cut out and taped to the apropriate pages on the prints.
Oops, sounds like you know all that. Reread your last paragraph. Yes the general has a logs of rfi's, addenums changes ect..
The first thing to do is check in with the super before proceeding with any work. Unfortunately there is always a trade or two that are not concerned with updating themselves and it can really mess things up.
This is why I am all for weekly meetings with all subs present to try and co-ordinate things as good as possible. This can seem like a waste of time because things change so fast, but at least it identifies troubled areas or unorganised subs. Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
on a big job... the clerk of the works ( Owners Rep coordinating with the Architect & Contractor )
should have an on-site office in the superintendent's trailer... the Clerk and the Super should coordinate the information flowMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Others have covered it well. For myself, when acting as site super, my best friend is a date stamp.
Everything gets stamped and initialed when I received it, then if copies are made off it the date is there, and if disputes occur I have a dated record of when I received information. Info is logged as other have said.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
the title page on a set of prints should have a schedule of all revisions made. not sure how this would tell you if your set is the latest. A call to the arcitect is the sure thing"it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."Bozini Latinihttp://www.ingrainedwoodworking.com
For my drawings, and for those by the architectural firm I used to work for, a list of revisions and dates was included on the individual drawing. When a drawing got revised either the area changed was noted or a brief description or misc changes was included. The revised areas were "bubbled" and the revision date placed inside the bubble & the change order # if required. Then the drawings were reprinted, clearly marked as being revised and that all previous drawings should be destroyed, and then distributed to the appropriate people.
It's the architect or designer's responsibility to get any revisions to the GC, client, engineers, etc. I know on smaller jobs this doesn't always happen, but our office was always diligent about revisions since errors could result in real nightmares.
Nowadays I only do kitchens & baths, and I don't hand out a drawing until the dimensions are verified, the cabinet order is checked and confirmed, etc. I'm mostly working with client & installer so revisions involve very few people.
Prints .... men treat prints like women ... complain when none are around, ignore them when they are!
I've been on jobs where the 'print' was little more than a sketch on a napkin, and the scope of the job was considerably different.
Many jobs - the current one is a good example - start off with a fairly decent print ... then the changes begin, and the finished product has little in common with the original proposal.
Then there are the jobs where the prints detail -literally- every board and pipe. Naturally, the framer then builds his walls without the slightest regard for the drawing, and the mechanical trades run their stuff wherever the spirit moves them .... resulting in all manner of conflicts that the original plan had avoided.
Finally, there is the matter of errors on prints. I don't just mean the use of the same breaker for two completely different circuits; I mean things like omitting the code required service platform around a commercial exhaust fan and forgetting to include a 20 ft. wide sliding door / partition.
LOL on the women reference"it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."Bozini Latinihttp://www.ingrainedwoodworking.com
2 extremes.
When building own house, draw pans for permits, never look at them again.
Building commercial aircraft, EVERYTHING is to print, and not only that, HOW the build is done is per documented proceedure, down to level of exactly how to mix epoxy or apply paint or install a bolt in a hole, crimp a wire, exact torques, etc..... .
It depends on the plans. Some builders deliver accurate plans. Other deliver generic plans. The key then is to do the interpretation and make the right decisions based on experience.
For instance, I built house for 20 years that showed every partition thickness as 5". If I was to "follow the blueprints" explicitly, I'd have to furr out every stud wall 1/2" to get the numbers on the plan to work out properly. If I did that, I would have been run out of the sub in a hurry.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
One time i was hired on a Union framing job where the super and lead carpenter were going nuts as nothing worked out from the plans, I asked them if they wanted me to lay it out, They gave me a strange look but said go ahead we have been pondering this all day, I just centered all the windows in all the rooms, For the only time in my life i looked like a genius.
Sometimes it is that simple. You have to have an idea of the architects intent. Sometimes the prints have strange measurements that are put out by cad, when it seems pretty clear the friggin' window is centered.
But take that to a multi-story building, center the windows in the room and the rooms have different wall thicknesses or some other quirk, and the windows don't line up from floor to floor.
Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
In commercial work "follow the blueprints down to the nail" was a given otherwise known as CYA. Still recall a restaurant project that had three lines in the kitchen. On one of the lines the only way you could turn the lights on/off was to go outside to the electrical room, unlock it, go inside and flip a breaker- the switch was ommited in the prints and project manual and wasn't discovered till the final walk through. GC was covered; it was done to specs. Ran into it with architectural precast concrete too. The drawings were signed off by the GC and in another case supplied by the GC- in both cases there were redos at the GC's expense (not without some acrimony).
Edited 3/21/2008 11:16 am ET by jc21
I see you already have a broad spectrum of answers here. Part of it comes down to
-how good are the plans ?
( none are perfect, some downright laughable either for too much detail or for mistakes and lack of detail
and
-what kind of a job is it?
Ask me to build a sumer camp on raised piers Oh about 20x20 and I can do that with a rough sketch. But most people live in far better so good plans are important. Most framers who take the attitude that they can ignore plans get to rebuild stuff or to walk away with out getting paid sooner or later.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Having read the other posts in here I can say that each one is correct to their own situation.
From this Architects' point of view, I try very hard to provide every contractor with enought information for each of them to do their work. I also am realistic enough to know that there will be situations where they need to accomodate some unforeseen condition. Generally, the plans are indeed a detailed guide. But that is not to say that walls can be put up just anywhere.
Commercial work requires very specific information to be prepared and presented through the drawings (part of the construction documentation) for review for Code compliance. (recent project saw 11 complete reviews, most needed because of the Owners' changes!). These plans have very little flexibility for changes.
New homes are reasonably easy to prepare. I make a point to tell the general contractor to call anytime there is a question or conflict in the information, but more often than not unless its a big problem I will just show up on the site. Follow to the exact plans? Pretty much but I design for flexibility in the final product so they are a bit more like a guide (I'm not comfortable calling my drawings a guide but it fits).
The most difficult set of drawings to prepare and have finished exactly to what is drawn are home additions or remodels. Mostly because the existing construction is determined by the age of the house, the quality of the initial construction, what changes have been made and their quality and the contractor(s) involved. No, this isn't going to be a slam on contractors! Until a wall is opened up and we know exactly what is there I'm only guessing, really! I continuously study the construction methods and materials used on homes so I can "guess" as accurately as possible. Once construction is underway then the contractor can determine how close he'll get to the plans. I discuss the 'design intent' with him/her before we open anything up and make it clear that they have a reasonably free hand in changes but that there is a limit. And....I stay involved with the project to the end. I act as a buffer between the men doing the work and the Owner.
OK, presentation over, sorry to go so long.
ciao, ted
I fully agree with your statement that the hardest are the additions to older homes. In working with architects, I always ask what are the design parameters, priorities and goals? Some walls are not plumb, some dims can be off, some homes are not square....
So is the priority to have all those windows line up on three floors, or to have the hallway a certain dimension or to have it perfectly centered on that window at the end... once I get to framing, I need to make that decision which gets moved or compromised when things are not as assumed. I call when I can, but there are times when I might have to wait a day and a half for the designer to scratch his head and think about it before getting back to me - meanwhile the house is wide open.That is one major advantage to being a design/build now. I know what the priorities are and how a decision was arrived at so I know how and when I can change it.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
If I have prints, it's because I made them, and if I made them, then there is a reason why I made them, and use them.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
when framing, we try to follow blueprints as closely as possible.
Of course, when basement contractor can't square a wall or read a tape that becomes problematic.
We are paid to build the print not what we want.
There are exceptions, spec houses being one, there we build what the home builder wants, to code of course.
When I give the plans and details to the framing crew for example, generally they don't look hard at the details.
After the first one or two "do overs" to make corrections so their work conforms to the plans however, the plans are no longer just used as something to eat their lunch on.
Runnerguy
andyfew,
I built my whole house from sketches.. I held my hands up to mentally frame what I wanted done and then went ahead and did it..
I used to know a professor who taught college and one of his class he gave credit to kids who reverse engineered a building.. hopefully when I'm completely done he'll select my house as his next class project and I'll know what I built..
I typically draw what we build, so the blueprints are intended to be followed perfectly.
One of my pet peeves is "conventions" that don't really make sense. For instance, Jim mentioned walls that are 5" thick. What is that? I draw 99% of our walls at 4-1/2". I will admit that it's off 1/16" when we use 7/16" wall sheathing, but it's pretty close.
I also try to communicate intent when dimensioning, although I'm not always successful. If a window is to be centered in a room, you can use a note or dimensions that indicate it to be centered.
With wall layout, obviously some rooms need to be pretty close to perfect (bathroom with 5' tub- 59" finished dimension) and some are flexible. If that can be noted it should be as well.
Still, the drawings aren't always perfect. I think one of the differences between a craftsman and a wannabe is knowing when to draw according to plan and when to deviate.
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I draw commercial walls at 5" thick. That's 3.5" metal studs + 2 layers of 5/8" rock = 4-3/4" actual. One of the space planners I work with (dang she's almost incompetent) gives me layouts with walls drawn at 3". I never can figure out what she;'s thinking on that one. "Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Just curious, why not then draw them at 4-3/4"?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I always create a poche layer that I use to shade new walls, particularly helpful in remodels. If I draw the wall at 5", then I can easily do an offset of 2-1/2" and then create a p-line of the right width without using a calulator. Besides, it's easier to type 5" than 4-3/4". Most of my renovations involve aligning the walls with window mullions, so there's no dimension there ('center on mullion' note), and many walls line up with existing walls, so no dimension there either ('align w/ exsisting' note). I only dimension what is critical or can't be easily referenced off an existing feature."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
"I draw commercial walls at 5" thick. That's 3.5" metal studs + 2 layers of 5/8" rock = 4-3/4" actual."
What scale are you guys drawing at that you can tell the difference between a 4 1/2" and a 5" wall? Or do you mean you dimension them that way?
fingers... the thing about "drawing" is that most are not "drawing " anymore"in CAD you actually design in the scale 12" = 1 ft. ........... in other words everything is full sizeso it will compound errors if you don't draw things as they are meant to be
whereas on a board a wall thickness might be the difference between a thin line and a thick line
in CAD, it is what it isso... you should draw what you intend the conditions to be1/2" sheet rock..... 3 5/8 stud.... 1/2" sheathing.... 3/4" siding whatever you intend the assembly to beMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I see what you mean. I thought they might be talking about dimensioning to finished surfaces, rather than framing. I once had an office building drawn that way and had to keep going back to the specs to figure out where the h#ll the studs were. One layer drywall one side, two layers the other... it was a nightmare - I finally had to bite the bullet and take several days to completely re-dimension everything rather than try and work it out with subtrades on the other end of the phone wanting answers now.
"I finally had to bite the bullet and take several days to completely re-dimension everything rather than try and work it out with subtrades on the other end of the phone wanting answers now."That few days probably saved a few weeks of repairs LOL! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I've built hundreds of homes with 5" walls drawn on them. They are specified as 5", but we all know they are 4 1/2". The 5" templates are left over from the old days when all the architects were specifying plaster walls. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I thought the differences was because of the different CAD programs.
Side point: I love it when the dimensions don't add up.
that's when you have to be a mind reader and figure out what the arc. wanted.
When I built guitars, the prints from Japan were in metric, down to the .01 MM. Every radius, and 3 dimensions.
Funny thing is, if you don't build it according to plans, it won't play or feel right..yes, even a 10th of a MM can mess things up.
So, yeah..I follow the prints as exactly as I am able.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Ummm.... That is 1 one hundredth of a millimeter, in your example, not one tenth.
Correct, lack of sleep is killing me.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
I follow them to a t as well. any discrepencies get discussed with archi and building inspector. keeps me out of trouble that way
"it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."
Bozini Latini
http://www.ingrainedwoodworking.com
Excellent question and topic Andy.
All of the above advice is good and as you can see, the given situation calls for a variety of approaches.
For myself, I like to have as much detail on paper as possible. I work mostly in renovation and restoration so there are always a lot of changes and surprises.
In new work, it should be to the tee, and if there are any questions changes to be made, it should be drawn up in a formal (or informal), change order like Mike said, signed off by the architect and the customer.
I have done things without plans and they usually turn out fine, but many times they are not what I or the HO originally envisioned. In these cases, I like to "work backwards", see it finished before you even pick up a hammer and remind myself that however something turns out, it will be a good and pleasing thing for both myself and the customer. If you do that, all that's missing is sketching it down on paper. A little Zen goes a long way sometimes.
That being said, I definitely prefer detailed plans to the "as you go" approach.
Something as intricate as what Sphere has done as a Luthier and pipe organ builder has to have rules and tolerances beyond what most people in this forum (or even Knots) ever have to deal with.
On the other hand certain simple projects don't need much more than verbal instruction.
One of my favorite sayings came forth in the heat of anger from when I was working as a plasterer on the Trenton Memorial. Two of the decorative painters got into an argument about moving a simple Baker scaffold. The one always felt that there needed to be a plan for everything...how many brush strokes something would take, how to sweep a floor, what was the plan for cleaning the two brushes, and what was the plan for moving this scaffold. In frustration the other guy screamed at him "Just roll the f-in' scaffold willya!...I don't need a schematic on how to take a sh!t...!!"
That last paragraph reminds me of a guy I worked with in NC..awe man he drove me nuts. I mean he'd draw a diagram on the framing of where he wanted nails. We shared work, sometimes I worked for him, sometimes he worked for me..my jobs alwats seemed to get done just as well , but in half the time..LOL
Anal is an understatment ..for a condition that is more likened to OCD..When we installed the stairs ( the log stairs for Alice Walton in Ark.) we had 4 20-22 hour days in a row , and jacked up on coffee, nerves were getting thin..It's a miracle we didn't kill each other.
I SO much enjoy working more or less alone.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
That's funny Jer. That little story just demonstrates how different people function. Some guys cant build a dog house without a plan and other could build a shopping mall in their mind. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07