perhaps one of the resident electrical gurus can answer this…
necessity being the mother of invention, I’m back-feeding my panel via a double male end extension cord to the utility outlet at the furnace cut-off switch J-box…
yeah, I know I should have a proper disconnect switch, and no, I’m not running the whole 1/2 of the panel, just the furnace, fridge, & a utility outlet in the kitchen…
I got to wondering if I could back-feed through one of my exterior outlets (so I could use one of my short, heavy gauge cords, and not have to run the longer cord through the abandoned dryer vent where it is now.
Thing is, the outlet is GFI, & I wonder if, the generator being a floating ground, the GFI would trip.
Back of my mind, I also wonder what, if any, risk I have given that, even though the main disconnect is off, when (someday soon, please God!) National Grid gets the juice back on, there is still maybe some common ground path between the service in, the panel, & the generator.
(For anyone about to lecture me….hey, my neighbors have light gauge extension cords strung across the street, in the dark, with pretty frequent car traffic….I figure I’m being safe in comparison)
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Replies
This is totally wrong.
Please don't do it.
~Peter
You will probably wish you had not posted this.
Don't backfeed it. Period. Get a proper switch put in. This is very dangerous for the linemen. Disconnect the furnace fom the panel completely and run it off the generator, run a good duplex cord from the genset to the kitchen to power the fridge and whatever you need the outlet for.
Tom
Douglasville, GA
OK I wasn't gonna say anything,but I can't help myself.
Every electrical guru in here are gonna ask-----you friggin nutz?
I know what will work & what ya can get away with---- still wrong & illegal----- so I won't go into that.
Go to home desperate or blowes & get a panel disconnect---- these are specificly for this application & there not that expensive.
Or the cheaper route----- put your furnace on a pigtail & run a cord to the kitchen witha splitter on the end of it.
Cheaper safer & it's only for emergency times right.
When asked why is there four engines on a 747------ "cause we couldn't fit six" a Boeing engineer
This has got to be either a troll or Darwinism unfolding before our eyes....<!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Neither is pleasant; both can be instructional.
Please prove us wrong, Mr. J.
<!----> <!---->
Scott.
Always remember those first immortal words that Adam said to Eve, “You’d better stand back, I don’t know how big this thing’s going to get.”
Edited 10/19/2006 12:15 am by Scott
Those who can't improvise, freeze.......
It really ain't that hard to pigtail the furnace and run a cord to the kitchen.Tom
Douglasville, GA
go here...
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=68066.1
...it may help.....I hope !!
Square D makes an interlocked breaker KIT for their QO panels and Homeline
http://www.squared.com/us/applications/residential.nsf/unid/FD8CBE7A9E1445D085256D1A00538807/$file/GenIntKit.pdf
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.Wer ist jetzt der Idiot
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Thanks for the interlocked breaker info..
everyone else, get a grip.....
The men trying to clear out the mess left by years of numbskull home-owners letting anything & everything grow up into the lines around here said, and I quote, we might come & pull your meter base, but for now, be sure you keep the panel main off....
I am no longer amazed at how some of the people on this board let their urge to be know-it-alls interfere with common sense.....of course what I'm doing is not the correct way to do it, and when the situation clears up here, I'll set it up with all the bells & whistles...
for the meantime, I've got power & heat, it's safe enough for temporary.....I guess all the other posters would let there wife & kids freeze & go hungry instead...sheesh
Common sense also includes such time has considering what happens if some some trips over the cord and pulls out the hot male end.Or the power is restored and someone closes the main breaker in the excitement without disconnecting the generator. Or realizes that they need to disconnect the generator, but starts with the male end.And that person might be your wife or older children. Or the furnace stops in the night because the generator ran out of gas. Wife kicks you out of bed and you are still 2/3 asleep. So you try the main breaker first and leave it closed. Then realize that the generator is not run and you refill it and start it.
Common sense also includes such time has considering what happens if some some trips over the cord and pulls out the hot male end.....Cord's not run were anyone's gonna trip over it...Or the power is restored and someone closes the main breaker in the excitement without disconnecting the generator. Or realizes that they need to disconnect the generator, but starts with the male end....If "someone" is in my house messing with this besides me, I hope they get a good shock....And that person might be your wife or older children.Nope...they're well trainedOr the furnace stops in the night because the generator ran out of gas. Wife kicks you out of bed and you are still 2/3 asleep. So you try the main breaker first and leave it closed. Then realize that the generator is not run and you refill it and start it...Nope...unlike my neighbors, who run a 5000W generator 24/7, keeping the rest of us up at night, we shut down overnight.....
In your situation, I would probably do the same thing. Obviously its not ideal, and your well aware of that, so no need to beat a dead horse.
I wouldnt go through the GFI outlets as any fluctuation by the generator will probably cause them to trip.
Personally, I would tape off the main, ( and not a little piece of scotch tape) a serious piece of tape that must be removed in order to actually move the breaker, with a note DO NOT TOUCH
I would backfeed 220 from generator through an electric dryer or other 220 outlet. Turn off all the breakers you dont need. And check that the ones you do, dont get too close to the amp rating on the generator.
Good luck. Hope you get your power back soon.
> .....I guess all the other posters would let there wife & kids freeze & go hungry instead...sheesh
No. I'd run extension cords from the jenny to the essential loads. Furnaces here are all plug-in, not hard wired.
-- J.S.
I guess all the other posters would let there wife & kids freeze & go hungry instead...sheeshwhile you dont need it, go get the coreect lockout switch so you can have it safe when the next power failure.
Surprised no one mentioned the neutrals potential on a poorly grounded system.
Plenty of white wires have killed the uneducated.
Do not let you passion overrule your good sense. There is a lot of good reason- based upon bad experience- that put "lie" to all those clever handy man things- things like double male end cords for backfeeding. If you've pulled the meter, and cut your feed wires.... then, by all means, connect directly to your panel. I would suggest doing it correctly, though. As in, bigger wire, connected directly to the feed lugs of the panel. Your generator makes electricity. The Power Company makes electricity. That's all they have in common. There is no way for your generator to be making power at exactly the same volts, hertz, and in time with the PoCo generator. If it is possible for these two different "flavors" to meet each other, they will. The results are usually quite spectacular- either your panel explodes, sending molten metal and shrapnel everywhere.... or your generator does. That little breaker on the generator isn't going to impress the PoCo one bit. How do you keep this from happening? Very simple: USE A TRANSFER SWITCH. These things are proven designs, that keep the two from ever meeting.... while allowing for a smooth changeover from one to the other. The risk to line personnel is very real. Linemen do get hurt, or killed, every year ... by folks doing just what you propose. Should that happen, you can expect felony charges to be placed. This is one time where you need to consider that, just maybe, you're heading down the wrong path.
"There is no way for your generator to be making power at exactly the same volts, hertz, and in time with the PoCo generator. If it is possible for these two different "flavors" to meet each other, they will. The results are usually quite spectacular- either your panel explodes, sending molten metal and shrapnel everywhere.... or your generator does. That little breaker on the generator isn't going to impress the PoCo one bit."Actually, if you're extraordinarily lucky the two generators will "sync up" and everything will be happy. Not something you should count on.And, of course the (much) bigger danger is that you'll accidentally back-feed the power line, creating a hazard for the linemen. Despite the fact that it's "perfectly safe if you know what you're doing", linemen die due to this. All it takes is one "aw sh!t".
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
I totally agree that one should use a transfer switch but shouldn't linemen take proper precautions to use insulated tools & gloves, etc. Since the risk of backfeeding is always present, they should work as if the line is always live.
I take similar precautions when working on my own house even though the main breaker off. I always work as if the wire is still live.
So you never touch a bare wire?What I suspect you mean is that you always check the voltage on the circuit, and, maybe to be doubly sure, short hot to ground and watch for a spark (and the sound of the breaker tripping).Linemen will do much the same, I suspect, and will usually short all the lines together while working on them. But there are always the exceptional cases: They check but then the wire becomes hot a few seconds later; a grounding wire isn't making good contact; or, just like anyone, they screw up.And it's not even a hazard limited to the linemen. For instance, your neighbor's drop broke loose from the pole in an ice storm and is laying across your driveway. It's clearly disconnected, so you pick it up, only to discover that your neighbor has a genset he's backfeeding.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
Why yes, linemen do test the line... but what if he's testing it while you're gassing up the generator?
Horrible accidents are usually a result of multiple stupid errors that happen in sequences that can't be imagined.... and no mater what, dead is dead.
you mean I should turn off the generator to gas it ;-)Point taken about multiple errors leading to catastrophe...seems it takes teamwork to screw up big time....
I wasn't referring to linemen testing the lines and then working on them as if they had no power. I'm referring to them working as if the lines were live by using insulated gloves & tools and etc.
this one aint hard. nobody complaining about backfeeding, just get a tranfer switch, thats all, dont mess with the meter. power co will put in jail for that. Just get a transfer switch, simple. and then backfeed all you want.
Just curious, what is an interlocked breaker....(if it sees back feed, it locks out?)
And, on a similar note, what's the difference between a panel disconnect switch and the main 150A breaker at the panel feedOther than having a lockout tag capability, isn't the panel main acting as a disconnect?BTW, for those of you who are sure I am dangerous to myself & others, I learned a healthy respect for electrical systems working on an old passenger liner with an 8 foot tall by 15foof wide DC distribution panel....whose sole safety feature was a grab rail at waist level in front it
Lots of big knife switches, threw nice arcs in operation....DC 'll fry you fast...
It is not an interlock breaker.But rather separate device that interlocks to breakers. It is a mechanical device that will only allow one of two different breakers to be closed at once.I am not sure what all types are available. But I think that typically they are not used with a separate main breaker. But with a backfeed breaker to the bus with the 2nd breaekr directly oposite. BTW, backfeed main breakers and the backfeed generator breakers also need special kits that have hold downs on them to get the breaker from being removed or working lose."And, on a similar note, what's the difference between a panel disconnect switch and the main 150A breaker at the panel feed"I am not sure of the context.The service entrance to the house has to have two features. A method of disconnecting power to the house and overload protection. In many cases that is one device and it is the main breaker in the panel.But in some installations the main disconnect is on the outside by the meter. In that case typically a breaker is used for both the switch and overload. But in some cases a plain switch is used along with fuses.
"Just curious, what is an interlocked breaker....(if it sees back feed, it locks out?)"
It's actually two circuit breakers, one for the main and one for the generator, that are mechanically interlocked so that only one can be energized at a time.
To the original poster: I agree with all the others...sure, backfeeding has been done many times before and no one got hurt, but that doesn't mean it's safe or legal. For us electrical types here on the board, it would be foolish (and a big violation of our professional ethics) to even suggest otherwise.
backfeeding has been done many times before and no one got hurt, but thatthree power guy got killed during katrina from generator backfeed. people die every year because of this.
yep, but I'm not responsible for that......
Well, being the original poster, I am in agreement with you...it's not something I'd expect anyone to OK....I understand that.It's a bit like my gas stove....when the power goes out, it locks out, because it has Pizeo-electric ignition, & some lawyer decided the risk from someone turning the gas on without being smart enough to LIGHT A MATCH was too much....
God save us from the people who try to keep us idiot proof.....those are the folks messing with Darwins' mechanism for keeping the species healthy.....It's kind of hard to buy an interlocked breaker when HD is in the dark like everyone else....
"t's kind of hard to buy an interlocked breaker when HD is in the dark like everyone else..."I doubt that they have them.Might even be special order at the electrical supply houses.And again it is not an interlocked breaker. But an interlock to add to breakers.
Edited 10/19/2006 2:32 pm by BillHartmann
True, but here your attempt at being a Darwin Award recepient will be the death of innocent people (linemen) and not the proper recipient of the award!Fewer linemen means longer time to restore your power....Frank DuVal You can never make something foolproof because fools are so ingenious.
God save us from the people who try to keep us idiot proof.....those are the folks messing with Darwins' mechanism for keeping the species healthy.....
THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU!
Yeah, backfeeding is dangerous and I would NEVER recommend it.
And if my family was cold / hungry / dirty with no relief in site I would back feed my house with a generator!
Does that make me an idiot? You decide.
I have a plan in place for just that type of situation. As for me, I'll pull the meter and beg forgiveness when things are back to normal. My house will be warm and I won't kill a lineman.
jrnbi makes a decent point about idiot proof and keeping the species healthy.....
Some people don't even want kids to play tag any more!
Considering Less that ideal conditions
I would be willing to bet quite a few of you guys would do what was necessary to keep your family comfortable.
Bro--
If your main breaker isn't equipped with lock-out tabs for a padlock (many are), why don't you just physically pull the main breaker right out of the service panel? Seems to me that should isolate your gen-powered system from the network completely and prevent any impetuous or unconsidered re-connection.
(You could also remove the meter yourself, although you'd likely have to explain to the power company later why their seal is missing....)
PS--Shut down/disconnect your generator before you do either or both of the above, of course...and get a woodstove for next time.Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Hey, good to hear from you....haven't tuned in to your situation with the boy for some time...hope it's going as well as possible...I'd pull the main breaker, but while I don't mind installing breakers with the main off, I wouldn't be installing the 150A main with the feeds hot....contrary to what some folks might think, I do know when to call in the real electricians...Were you hit by the ice storm in Quebec a few years back?
Were you hit by the ice storm in Quebec a few years back?
Yes, we were: No power for 4 days, and we only got it back then because we had an 'inside connection'--my bud is a Hydro-Québec linesman, and he twisted his dispatcher's arm to bump our sector up the priority list a bit seeing as my wife was pregnant at the time. Many areas waited 2 weeks; some on the South Shore went for 7 weeks.
This house runs quite acceptably for up to a week with no electrical power. There are a few things I'd add to the infrastructure in order to weather a longer haul, though, one of which is a small propane heater for the basement (the woodstove is on the main floor and there's no easy way to circulate the warm air downstairs).
As for putting your 150A breaker back in once the power comes back on, do it before you plug the meter back in. Seems to me that plugging in the meter while the circuit is live should be less hair-raising as it's designed for that.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
The meter is not really designed to be a switch.You want to make sure that the main breaker is off when replacing it.
The meter is not really designed to be a switch.
You want to make sure that the main breaker is off when replacing it.
A good point, Bill. I have a Snap-on screwdriver around here somewhere with a nice notch burned into the shaft which testifies to the truth of that....
Obviously, the simplest solution to isolating the house from the grid would be if J's main breaker had lock-out ring tabs on it, so he could physically padlock it in the off position. My ITC box has that; all commercial stuff I've seen have it too.Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I haven't looked, but in my old neck of the woods, the Power Co. had a tamper tag on the meter.....
Yeah, they would likely have that, which would mean explanations at some later date. Could cost ya if they decided not to believe your explanation, too. Not real good....
You sure you don't have lock-out tabs on that breaker? Or some way to padlock the panel shut with the main breaker thrown to the off position? That would eliminate the likelihood of somebody throwing it back on without thinking.Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Just came back inside....it finally stopped raining enough to go out & cut up the 100 year old apple tree into smoker wood....sigh. My 6 yr. old daughter was helping me (no, I don't let her use the chain saw ;-) ) until she got too sad...it was her favorite climbing tree.
Good idea re locking cover, but no such luck it's a Siemens main, no padlock hasp....too bad
Things get back to normal, I'll see about getting a manual transfer switch...can't spring for much more right now, the wife just got laid off, & I don't have any hotel work lined up this fall....it's looking like winter'll be tough this year...Mom's got stage four cancer, daughters'
diabetes doc got accused of child molestation by a teen psych patient who's been stalking him, throwing 400 families who depend on the doc into turmoil....hope all the crap that can happen, has, cause I've had enough for now....
....hope all the crap that can happen, has, cause I've had enough for now....
I say that every morning, bro. What a friggin' life it can be sometimes....
Hang tough. I'll look around here in the reclaimed electrical parts and see what I can turn up. I don't remember scoring a gen-set switch, but ya never know. There's all kinds o' crap in those crates....
In the meantime, be effin' careful and use LOTS o' duct tape in multiple layers....Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
..." what is an interlocked breaker...."I would just re-iterate what others have said. it's merely a mechanical linkage between two opposing breakers.... If I understand your other question, yes , the panel main is a disconnect, but of course you are aware that breakers do not like being opened under load, .
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.Wer ist jetzt der Idiot
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yes , the panel main is a disconnect,
But also what if somebody hooks the generator wrong, send voltage up the netrual instead. breaker wont help then, It does happen, daily.
You can't really send juice back on the neutral, unless there's a major problem with the PoCo's stuff. At your service entrance and again at the pole, the neutral is tied to ground. You'll simply burn out the generator.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
That's assuming the wiring is correct throughout the house.
More than once, on remodels, where HO's have fiddled with the wiring, or added circuits, or replaced devices, I've found hots and neutrals are on the wrong sides on recepticals......here and there.
But how would that cause problems out on the hi line, if the main breaker is disconnected?
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
It wouldn't. I'm just pointing out that, sometimes, those neutrals are hot. (and the "hots" are not).
And I want to raise another issue that, if I hadn't seen it recently, I wouldn't even bring it up:
I was doing a remodel in an older home last year that required some rewiring in an attic that we were converting to a studio.
The electrician I had doing the wiring upgrade suggested we replace the meter box because it was old and showed signed of corrosion. So I had him do that.
A couple of weeks later, we started getting a trip on the 200A main in the house panel. Usually it was when the HO was cooking or running the clothes dryer or something.
Yet lights would still be on in the basement....turns out the main breaker was bad and was bleeding through even when "off."
Now, wouldn't that be a nice situation to be backfeeding a generator into?
Of course, that scenario could occur with a proper transfer switch too.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
...good point,
I'm not the one hooking this up, and have not promoted his way of doing it ......and I think he knows that.
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.Wer ist jetzt der Idiot
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Why not get a start on doing it right? Install the outside connection you'd need for a transfer switch, even if you don't do the rest just yet.
I'm pretty sure that backfeeding through a GFCI would have a high probability of tripping the GFCI, and the repeated tripping would be hard on the genset.
For now put tape over the main breaker, with a sign saying "Don't turn on!!" Otherwise, when you're not there, some "friend" might turn it on for you (or you might do it in a sleep-deprived daze).
Good idea about the tape.....no one goes near the panel but me, & my friends are at least as bright as I am, but it's an extra safety measure until I can get a true disconnect in, instead of relying on the panel main breaker
by backfeeding, you just killed a power company employee, working on the lines.
No, the main at the panel's off....
Stupidity being the mother of death... Don't do it.
double male end extension cord - bad idea anytime!
I know I should have a proper disconnect switch - There's your answer, so you're not stupid, just not thinking it through.
I got to wondering if I could back-feed - I wonder if, the generator being a floating ground - I wonder if, the generator being a floating ground... Anybody doing this much wondering should consult a licensed electrician.
there is still maybe some common ground path between the service in, the panel, & the generator... That maybe could kill someone.
>>I figure I'm being safe in comparison
Sorry, you've got them beat hands down for high risk.
BTW, I teach a course in risk analysis for real estate agents and home inspectors.
May I come over and take some pictures?
Please leave the door unlatched, you might not be able to answer it by the time I get there.
You might want to be sure everyone in the family can remeber these numbers:
9
1
1
Youth and Enthusiasm Are No Match
For Age and Treachery
hey, my neighbors have light gauge extension cords strung across the street, in the dark, with pretty frequent car traffic....I figure I'm being safe in comparison
But your neighbor hasn't set up conditions where a POCO worker may get killed one day. If the Service Disconnect is ever inadvertantly switched on, you end up backfeeding the transformer, which puts HV on its input terminal.
Set up a "foolproof" switch or interlocked breaker. Otherwise, if a "worst case" situation does happen, you're probably going to jail. 'happened here in Oregon a few years ago, when a firefighter got killed from a blaze that was started by a non-permitted furnace.
ANYONE who is as positive about their ability to never slip up, as you are, is just an accident WAITING to happen, you just never know when! My condolences to your wife and kids!!
Geoff
I've lived most of my life in relatively remote rural areas, where power outages are not uncommon several times in a winter....from a few hours to several days.
I have a decent genset now, with transfer switch, but most of my life (nearly 60, counting childhood), we survived without a generator.
But, regardless of where you live, you should have some kind of an emergency plan to provide for the problems with isolation from the electrical grid, a water system, refrigeration, heat, etc. That means storable food, jugs of water, kerosene lamps and flashlights w/extra batteries, a propane stove or a barbeque unit for cooking and heating water, extra clothes and blankets, etc. (ven Manhatten, NYC has had power outages).
This doesn't mean you have to be a member of LDS or a survivalist....a basic set up for being isolated in an emergency for even a month will take up very little room and won't cost a great deal. You seem to be responsible about training your family, so getting them up to speed on how to safely use and care for survival equipment is pretty straightforward.
If you want to run a generator on the cheap for refrigeration, lights and whatever else floats your boat, you can accomplish that with a pigtail from the generator, with the output side of the pigtail sporting a receptical box for 115V and/or 220 into which you can plug in and energize individual appliances.
But, for us knuckle dragger country bumpkins, the dangers of backfeeding with a generator were explained to us before I was even in High School.
If you're committed to the generator back-up, I suggest you hire an electrical contractor and have a full house backup genset and emergency panel installed in your home.
I've built several rural custom homes in the last few years that had 13K backup generators installed.....generators are much less expensive than they were just a few years ago and a good 11k or 13K unit with an Onan or Honda engine is pretty affordable. Cost of installation will, of course, vary with the configuration of your electrical service and distribution, but it may be an desireable alternative to getting someone hurt or killed.
And you are living proof of the well known fact that people are notoriously unable to clearly analyze risk/reward situations...
I'm not fool-proof, but I've spent 30 years in the trades with nary an accident.....and plan to keep that record going for the next 30
I wish you the best of luck at that! only problem is you are doing something you KNOW is dangerous and wrong!!.... and the ones with the most to lose are not in the decision making loop! (your family and the other outside potential victim(s) like a linesman)
Geoff
My family is in the loop, as is the lineman-read through the thread to see his comment....
I don't KNOW it's either dangerous or wrong...
it would be dangerous if I had no idea what I was doing....
it would be wrong if I did it because I couldn't pay my electric bill, and if I don't prepare better for next time